Muslim Armenian?

[Sassun]

SIPAN

THIS is what I mean. You misunderstood me. ISLAM does not consider Christianity to be an illegitimate religion. Plus , besides the fact that Islam considers Christianity to be a LEGITIMATE RELIGION , it is not up to me to recognize Christianity as legitimate or not. Who am I to say it is not ? Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want, and for them that would be LEGITIMATE.

 

The official religion of Armenia is Christian, and it must remain so. I do not want to change it. But I want to be able to be accepted for my choice by fellow Armenians. And to be considered as an Armenian. Is that too much to ask for?

 

Islam does not denounce Christianity. That is a misconception.

 

That is what I have been trying to say all along. Sadly, while I do know quite a bit about Christianity , not many here know about Islam except what is commonly repeated (and is more often than not, simply wrong) and I think that is the major problem. People are paranoid based on their misconceptions and misrepresentation of Islam. People fear Islam because of what they see around them (but frankly , there is all the more reason to "fear" Judaism , but not many Armenians do so).

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

ISLAM does not consider Christianity to be an illegitimate religion ... Islam does not denounce Christianity. That is a misconception.

 

Wait wait wait hold on a second hoooooooold your horses.

 

Do you mean to tell me that you recognize that Jesus was crusified, died on the cross, was resurrected, and then ascended to heaven?

 

Do you mean to tell me that you recognize the legitimacy of the holy trinity (foundation of Christianity)?

 

WOW I must say you are one enlightened muslim Come on brother. I'm not that stupid to fall for your crap mister single handedly taking on a whole bunch of people in one thread. OF COURSE you must think Christianity is bull shit if you believe in Islam. Why are you trying to cover that up?

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sip

[Sassun]

No , I do not think that Christianity is 'bullshit'. Why would I think that? The Qur'an does not say so, either. Where in the Qur'an did you 'read' that? Anyway, you will notice that when I spoke about Islam vis a vis Christianity, I did not say that Christianity is illegitimate, but that Islam is the highest and ultimate truth. This does not mean that Christianity is illegitimate, and if Christians consider their religion to be the ultimate truth, then so be it, there is no problem. Islam does not have a problem with that.

 

The Qur'an accepts the Bible (and the Torah) and whatever comes in it and therefore Christianity is LEGITIMATE in the eyes of Islam. But the problem , as the Qur'an points out, is that many have tried to distort the Bible and not follow its teachings , and that is where the problem arises. The problem is not with Christianity. At all.

 

I hope you are not convinced that Bin Laden's PERSONAL interpretation of the Qur'an is what Islam is all about.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

Sassun, you did not answer my direct questions. Why?

[ArmoPhil]

Read the thread and you will know who I am and where I am from.

 

I am disgusted with your childish insinuations, you and a few people who have 'entered' this thread since yesterday.

Can you not have a respectful discussion without accusing an ARMENIAN of being a Turk??? :angry:

This is DISGUSTING. I have been silent to all the attempts to get me angry and to mock me , but frankly, this idiotic accusation has gone beyond anything LOGICAL.

 

If you do not consider me Armenian, FINE. But this is a thread for discussion not childish accusations.

It is people like you who will destroy the Armenian cause, who will alienate more and more Armenians, for this reason or that.

 

I could have sworn at you and I could have said very not-so-nice words. But I did not.

 

In the end, I think your reactions, compared to mine, say more about who is acting in a way that is Հայու վայել and who isn't. In this thread there are Turks, and the Turk is not me. The one who is a Turk is you and your likes who do not know what respectful discussion is about. Start acting like an Armenian. Only then you will deserve a further response from me.

Is you converting to Islam any logical? I guess not.

[SAS]

Անուշիկ՝ քեզի խրատ: Խելքդ գլուխդ ժողուէ: Եթէ հայերէն չես գիտեր քնայ հայերէն սորուիր որովհետեւ մենք հայերս դարերու ընդացքին պահպանած ենք մեր լեզուն իսկ դուն (եթէ չես գիտեր հայերէն) կը նկատուիս հայ լեզուի եւ հայ ազգի դշնամի հայ լեզուն չգիտնալովդ:

... եւ ՀԱՎԱՏԸ: Մեչետին մէջ հայերեն չեն աղոթեր, Ղուրան հայերեն չեն կարդար: Քու նախնիք նահատակվեցան նաև իրենց հավատին համար:Ով մահմեդական դարձավ, ան՝ փրկվեցավ: Մի՞թե կեանքիդ վտանգ կը սպառնա, որ մահմեդական ես դարձեր:Փորձէ կիրակի մը երթալ Հայ Առաքելական Եկեղեցի և ուշադիր լըսէ «Տէր ողորմեան»: Միշտ ալ հնարաւորութիւն կա դարձի գալու, այսինքն՝ վերադառնալու արմատներուդ, հիշատակներուդ, ավանդոյթներուդ:

[phantom22]

One does not have to ignore the teachings of Jesus to realize that what the Christian hierarchy is handing us is not legitimate. What we believe to be the word of Jesus is the word of two very dishonest men, Saul (Paul) of Tarsus and the Emperor Constantine. The true word of Jesus far surpasses the fraudulent paganism that is practiced today as Christianity.

 

 

Wait wait wait hold on a second hoooooooold your horses.

 

Do you mean to tell me that you recognize that Jesus was crusified, died on the cross, was resurrected, and then ascended to heaven?

 

Do you mean to tell me that you recognize the legitimacy of the holy trinity (foundation of Christianity)?

 

WOW I must say you are one enlightened muslim Come on brother. I'm not that stupid to fall for your crap mister single handedly taking on a whole bunch of people in one thread. OF COURSE you must think Christianity is bull shit if you believe in Islam. Why are you trying to cover that up?

 

[Arpa]

One does not have to ignore the teachings of Jesus to realize that what the Christian hierarchy is handing us is not legitimate. What we believe to be the word of Jesus is the word of two very dishonest men, Saul (Paul) of Tarsus and the Emperor Constantine. The true word of Jesus far surpasses the fraudulent paganism that is practiced today as Christianity.

Hagarag will love this.

Once we combine the states of Artsakh and Hayastan, assign Christianity to one and Islam to the other. We will add two more, Bagratashen as a Hryakan Hayastan and Vardanashen as Chinakan Hayastan.

One goof for each of them.

:goof: :goof:

 

[Takoush]

Անուշիկ՝ քեզի խրատ: Խելքդ գլուխդ ժողուէ: Եթէ հայերէն չես գիտեր քնայ հայերէն սորուիր որովհետեւ մենք հայերս դարերու ընդացքին պահպանած ենք մեր լեզուն իսկ դուն (եթէ չես գիտեր հայերէն) կը նկատուիս հայ լեզուի եւ հայ ազգի դշնամի հայ լեզուն չգիտնալովդ:

Դուն Անուշիկին վրայ յարձակելիքդ դուն ամենէն առաչ դուն քեզ վրայ նայիր եւ յետոյ խոսիր: Անուշիկը Հայ է եւ ինչպէս թէ Հայ; ան բառք Տիրոչ մուսիլման չէ քեզ նման:

 

Ինչպէս որ Սաս-ը ըսաւ, դուն օր մը չանայ Հայկական եկեղեցի երդալ եւ Տէր ողորմեան հոգիով եւ ընդունակ սրտով մտիկ ընել թէ ո՜րքան խրախուսիչ ու միաժամանակ յուզիչ է ան: Դերեւս դարձի կու գաս եւ դուն ալ կըլլաս Հայ Քրիստոնեայ:

 

[Anoushik]

Qo huyser@ ira kam en irakanutyan mej vor inqn a aprum dra het mi kapi. Hargi andzin aynpes inchpes vor ka. Yete qagaqavari motecum cuyc tair, nuynisk tarber linelu depqum khargveir. Qo brnats dirqov du mardkanc qez dem el larum u hetn el bogoqum. Da pornkin bnorosh varqagits a. Veranai qo brnats dirq@.

Bolorovin chist es.

[Anoushik]

I am not running away from anything. I have been taking on dozens of people so far, for the past 13 pages on this thread, single handedly.

 

Be careful, do not misunderestimate me, just because I am Muslim. After all, I am still ARMENIAN. And you know very well that Armenians are stubborn and always must be reckoned with.

You know, you write in perfect English. And your writing is that of spoken American English. Have you lived in the U.S. as well? You must've, because one only writes so well when one has experienced the spoken and written language every day for many years.

[Sassun]

Sassun, you did not answer my direct questions. Why?

Because they have nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

But here you go, I will answer anyway:

 

1. Do you mean to tell me that you recognize that Jesus was crusified, died on the cross, was resurrected, and then ascended to heaven?

 

I answered this before... We believe in the Bible , and in Prophet Jesus (Isa in Arabic) and in Mary . Actually there is an whole chapter in the Qur'an titled Maryam (Mary) . I really recommend that you read it in English to get a better idea.

 

And the answer to your question is in verse 55 of Sura Al Imran :

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

 

If you do not read/know Arabic , it means: "And Allah said, O Isa, I will put an end to your stay on earth , and raise you up to me and purify you of those who have disbelieved and make those who followed you above those who disbelieved , to the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to me and I will judge between you on the things in which you differ."

 

2. Do you mean to tell me that you recognize the legitimacy of the holy trinity (foundation of Christianity)?

 

The Qur'an talks about the idea to a certain extent, though it mentions not the holy spirit , but Mary .

 

In Sura Al Ma'ida , verse 116 :

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ

 

"And Allah said : O Isa son of Mary , did you say to people take me and my mother as Gods besides Allah ? He [isa] said , glory be to you , I cannot say what I have no right to say , and if I said it you would have known it . You know what is in my mind and I do not know what is in yours . You know all that is hidden."

[Sassun]

You know, you write in perfect English. And your writing is that of spoken American English. Have you lived in the U.S. as well? You must've, because one only writes so well when one has experienced the spoken and written language every day for many years.

Actually I have not , no.

The internet is a great tool for learning.

I got my first computer in 1993, and the internet a few years later, and it has been a tremendous learning experience ever since. And actually the school I went to is the best Armenian school in terms of the level of the English language (but miserable in Arabic and below zero in French ) . Our education in other topics like math, science and so on , was in English .

And as for the "American English" , probably part of it is thanks to Mr. Haig Kendirjian my English teacher in michnagark (intermediate level).

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sassun

[Arpa]

Can I repeat something I have said before.

All those seeking another religion, another denomination, a sex change or rhinoplasty, not unlike those who undergo face lifts and buttocks lifts, breast resizings, should probably seek psychiatric counseling.

Once again the story of the skunk that moved from house to house because the previous one smelled.

Smelled?

What smelled?

The house or the occupent?

Edited May 30, 2007 by Arpa

[Sip]

1. Do you mean to tell me that you recognize that Jesus was crusified, died on the cross, was resurrected, and then ascended to heaven?

 

I answered this before... We believe in the Bible , and in Prophet Jesus (Isa in Arabic) and in Mary . Actually there is an whole chapter in the Qur'an titled Maryam (Mary) . I really recommend that you read it in English to get a better idea.

 

And the answer to your question is in verse 55 of Sura Al Imran :

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

 

If you do not read/know Arabic , it means: "And Allah said, O Isa, I will put an end to your stay on earth , and raise you up to me and purify you of those who have disbelieved and make those who followed you above those who disbelieved , to the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to me and I will judge between you on the things in which you differ."

 

2. Do you mean to tell me that you recognize the legitimacy of the holy trinity (foundation of Christianity)?

 

The Qur'an talks about the idea to a certain extent, though it mentions not the holy spirit , but Mary .

 

In Sura Al Ma'ida , verse 116 :

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ

 

"And Allah said : O Isa son of Mary , did you say to people take me and my mother as Gods besides Allah ? He [isa] said , glory be to you , I cannot say what I have no right to say , and if I said it you would have known it . You know what is in my mind and I do not know what is in yours . You know all that is hidden."

 

Sassun, as usual you have posted a lot of fluff but from what I gather:

 

1. You do not believe in the crusifiction, death, and resurection as you completely avoided answering it again.

2. You do not believe in the holy trinity and the passage you quoted from Qur'an supports it.

 

So now I ask you again, based on this, how can you POSSIBLY claim you think Christianity is a legitimate religion? Such two faced statements are what are causing people to push you away. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say

• "I think Christianity is legitimate"
• "Isa said I cannot say to people to take me and my mother as Gods besides Allah"
• "Jesus didn't die on the cross and didn't get resurrected"
• "I think people have a right to believe what they want"
• "I think Islam is the True Religion" [this implies everyone else is an idiot for not believing it]

So far, you have said a bunch of contradictory, flowery yet nonsensical, and just basically a hosh posh of garbage statements.

 

I hope you realize that it is you who is pushing all your Christian Armenian friends away by the mere fact that you have switched to Islam and slapped them in the face by proclaiming that their faith is somehow not "true". Until you are willing to admit this, you will create 10s or 100s of more pages going in circles.

 

It is not "Armenians" who push you way but Christians. It just sucks for you that the majority of Armenians are Christians so you either have to learn to live with this fact, or accept that by claiming Islam is True, you're going to get your ass handed back to you by those who don't share in that "belief"

 

I am not religious. I couldn't care less if Christian Armenians or Muslim Armenians or Jewhova Witness Armenians "push" me away. At least I can have pride in not being two-faced. It is YOU who is the one pushing Armenians away ... not the other way around. By the way, I was one of the VERY few here that said you are still an Armenian. But after having talked to you some more, I can start to see that statement might have been a bit premature since you don't want to be Armenian. You want Armenian to be you.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sip

[Arpa]

From the above, one cannot but reconsider all the Greco_Roman mythology, like "trinity", "virginal birth" (from air and water) as opposed to the limited "mythology" of Islam where it is never suggested that Mohammed was of virgina birth and that he was celibate, on the contrary, they don't deny that He was a womanizer several times over.

If only christianity would get their acts together and forget all that virgin birth and rsurrection from the dead, and instead dwell on the "message" rather than the "messenger"(physical flesh and blood of god) maybe then we would not have this debate.

As aif all that gobbledigook myhtology was not enough we went a step further and divided the religion/church with that inane argument if Jesus is man-god or god-man, monopysite or duphysite. Only if the Christian world would get their act together, emphasize the message of peace v war, love v hate, forgivness v revenge, , if Muslims in general and the Turks in particular want forgiveness, they must first confess, confession is a prerequisite to forgiving.

Maybe then we would gain converts in rather than converts out.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

1. You do not believe in the crusifiction, death, and resurection as you completely avoided answering it again.

Excuse me?

Can you read this again ?

 

"And Allah said, O Isa, I will put an end to your stay on earth , and raise you up to me and purify you of those who have disbelieved and make those who followed you above those who disbelieved , to the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to me and I will judge between you on the things in which you differ."

 

2. You do not believe in the holy trinity and the passage you quoted from Qur'an supports it.

Actually not all Christians are Trinitarians , and where do you see me saying that ? The Qur'an verse I cited does not talk about the Holy Spirit / al ruh al qudus.

 

Mary is not part of the Trinity.

 

"I think Islam is the True Religion" [this implies everyone else is an idiot for not believing it]

Well you are free to draw that implication but it is not what I think/feel.

 

By the way, I have not said anything to my friends about their faith . We did not even get that far. I wish we had. Unfortunately they did not give me the chance to explain myself .

 

I think you have difficulty understanding the concept of Islam being the Ultimate Truth. When I say this, I do not mean that Judaism or Christianity are not truths in and of themselves. Just that Islam, which came after these two religions , completed them. And while I do consider Jesus a Prophet , you do not consider Mohammed (sallallahu alaihi wassalam) a Prophet.

 

No, I do not want "Armenian to be me". I do not want others to be like me. I want to be me. And I want to be considered Armenian because I am one. I feel one. And always will remain one. I do not know how you reached the conclusion that I want Armenian to be me.

[Sip]

I think you have difficulty understanding the concept of Islam being the Ultimate Truth.

 

Gee ya think?

 

No, I do not want "Armenian to be me". I do not want others to be like me. I want to be me. And I want to be considered Armenian because I am one. I feel one. And always will remain one. I do not know how you reached the conclusion that I want Armenian to be me.

 

Nice circle you got there

 

 

But I love how you desparately try to avoid direct questions:

 

1. You do not believe in the crusifiction, death, and resurection as you completely avoided answering it again.

 

Excuse me?

Can you read this again ?

 

"And Allah said, O Isa, I will put an end to your stay on earth , and raise you up to me and purify you of those who have disbelieved and make those who followed you above those who disbelieved , to the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to me and I will judge between you on the things in which you differ."

 

Well, do you believe that Jesus died in the cross and was resurected? "Allah raising Jesus up" doesn't answer that now does it? But don't bother. It is irrelevant now because I know what you will say. You just can't admit that you don't believe in the fundamental truths of Christianity. I know the Qur'an says Isa was a nice guy. But that IS a slap in the face of Christians

[ED]

Sassun I support you man, you can be a Satanist for all care, you said its a personal thing, well, keep it personal then, why do you need the approval of your fellow Armenians? If you are so sure you made the right choice? Why defend so staunchly in this forum? something isn’t right and you know it, I don’t think you had a good upbringing by you parents, and I'm 100% sure in a near future you going to jump the wagon again begging to let you back to the church (Armenian community) but one thing always remember, a men without a past is no men, it isn’t to late, there is always a room for redemption!

Am I wrong with what I said? I don’t think so, seen many like you and will yet see them, becerful and don’t play with your head, your life is ahead of you!

Just an advice or read my signature

 

[Sassun]

Sip,

 

I have answered your question but you refuse to see the answer.

Does it mention in the Bible the crucufixion of Jesus?

If so, then I have already answered your question, what more are you looking for?

And anyway ,what does legitimacy of religion have to do with what I think of it?

 

By the way , the problem with citations of Qur'anic verses to those who might not known Arabic is best demonstrated in the verse I cited, which contains the following expression "مُتَوَفِّيكَ "

Mutawaffeek

wafat = death

Mutawaffeek = roughly meaning, the one who will take your life

But the Qur'anic language is full of imagery, and therefore, it is understood as something like 'putting an end to your time on earth', and not human death.

 

Anyway , yes? A nice circle? Why don't you address it ? Where do you see a circle there ?

 

 

 

[Sip]

Anyway , yes? A nice circle? Why don't you address it ? Where do you see a circle there ?

 

When you say "I do not want "Armenian to be me"" and then say "I want to be considered Armenian because I am one" ... that is where I see the circle. And it's a nice one No bother replying since we'll have another circle with you disagreeing. I am well aware that you disagree with me. But that doesn't make neither you or me "right". There is no ultimate truth here my friend. Just opinions.

 

[Arpa]

Excuse me?

Can you read this again ?

 

"And Allah said, O Isa, I will put an end to your stay on earth , and raise you up to me and purify you of those who have disbelieved and make those who followed you above those who disbelieved , to the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to me and I will judge between you on the things in which you differ."

Who is Allah? Can you show us his picture?

Maybe then I will show you a picture of God/Astouats.

Can we get down to earth, where an Armenian is an Armenian, an Arab is an Arab, a Turk is a Turk, regardless what each think Allah, Astouats looks like.?

Edited May 30, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Sip, what I understood from what you said about "you want Armenian to be you", was that I wanted to have all Armenians like me , which I don't. And Armenians are not one shape or size , we come in different shapes & sizes. So there is no point in even wanting all Armenians to be like me , and the same goes to anyone who wants all Armenians to be like themselves. that is exactly the point i am trying to make, that we can differ on many points but we share something common, our language, attachment to our homeland , loyalty to our people.

[phantom22]

My ancestors joined the Pope in the 12th Century for strategic reasons because the Europeans afforded the Armenians protection. My father left the Armenian Catholic Church after his memories of being abused by the monks was dejavu-ed by my being sexually abused while that so-called Christian Damadian played his violin next door.

 

As for my rhinoplasty, who would want to go through life with an Armenian nose? As for a sex change, no thank you, I am quite pleased with retaining my pecks and my appendage. Why would anyone want to mutilate oneself like that?

 

 

Can I repeat something I have said before.

All those seeking another religion, another denomination, a sex change or rhinoplasty, not unlike those who undergo face lifts and buttocks lifts, breast resizings, should probably seek psychiatric counseling.

Once again the story of the skunk that moved from house to house because the previous one smelled.

Smelled?

What smelled?

The house or the occupent?

 

[Yervant1]

My ancestors joined the Pope in the 12th Century

Hey phantom my ancestors from the 12th century told me that you are full of it.