Muslim Armenian?

[Sassun]

Hi guys,

Long time no see.

 

I wanted to discuss the question of whether or not as Armenians you would consider an Armenian convert to Islam as an Armenian? If yes, why, and if no, why not?

 

(I wanted to add a poll but I don't know why it didn't work.)

Edited May 24, 2007 by Sassun

[Armenak]

I would, but why do such a thing?

[Eurocentric]

Hell no.

I'm fine with pagans, atheists and and all denominations of Christianity.

 

No jews or muslims though.

[Sassun]

I would, but why do such a thing?

What do you mean why do such a thing?

 

If someone converts to Islam it means he believes that Muhammad is the Prophet and also abides by the Qur'an.

 

Hmm.. maybe I misunderstood your question.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Sassun

[Yervant1]

It's ok as long their women don't wear burkas.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2007 by Yervant1

[Armenak]

Sassun,

 

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

Edited May 24, 2007 by Armenak

[Armenak]

Apparently the Islam can also form new ethnic groups: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks

[Sassun]

It's ok as long their women don't wear burkas.

Burkas?

 

Or you mean Hijab?

 

They're different things.

 

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

[Sassun]

Sassun,

 

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

I don't know if I agree.

 

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, and they have their own language and have not assimilated into Arab culture (but then, what is Arab culture? There is more than one Arab culture, if you go to Gulf states it is entirely different than in say Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or even Egypt...).

 

And as for Arabic words in Turkish, is that the case, or it's the other way around?

 

I know that there are many Turkish words in some Lebanese dialects, particularly the South Lebanese one.

 

For example , for towel we say "manshafe", they say "bashkir". Some Armenians also say "peshgir".

[Armenak]

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, and they have their own language and have not assimilated into Arab culture (but then, what is Arab culture? There is more than one Arab culture, if you go to Gulf states it is entirely different than in say Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or even Egypt...).

I was going to bring them up. The Indonesian word for "world" is dunia.

 

If you're thinking about it, I guess you should go for it. Though personally, I would convert to the Maronite or Coptic churches before considering Islam.

[ALMA]

Sassun,

 

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

La illahe alla, muhammade rasulla, bismillah ramone rahim something similar right?

 

I would never, I'm religious and proud Christian, but even if I weren’t I’d never become Muslim I believe Islam is pretty much of an evil religion.

There was a program on the TV, A Muslim guy was talking and he went on to say that he's Muslim if someone hits him, he'll kill the person, then he added- I'm not a Christian to turn my other chick I’ll just kill the person

[Sassun]

I was going to bring them up. The Indonesian word for "world" is dunia.

Well, I think that the linguistic issue (in terms of daily usage and not prayer) is a bit separate from religion except in places where Arabic has become the "native" language of the population following conquests (in North Africa for example, where there are significant Berber populations that speak tamazight)... I mean, there are many words that are kind of similar across many languages. For example,

 

Sugar

Armenian: շաքար

Arabic: (sukkar) سكّر

Hebrew: סכר (sukar)

 

 

I'm no linguist, so I don't know which came from which. But clearly there are words that are the same or similar, and this has nothing to do with religion. Though I will give you the "dunia" example. I think you are talking about words that have to do with religious/spiritual/philosophical matters. Because otherwise, I think Islam is compatible with day-to-day usage of a language other than Arabic (non-Muslim Armenians in Lebanon incorporate Arabic words in their language, too).

 

If you're thinking about it, I guess you should go for it. Though personally, I would convert to the Maronite or Coptic churches before considering Islam.

I'm not "thinking" about it.

 

It's good to know that people are (somewhat -- pending further replies....) open-minded. There seems to be this animosity against Muslims amongst Armenians. It's understandable that there is the issue of Genocide and Turkey and also Azerbaijan but I think that should not be a hindrance to more tolerance. I think that Armenians are overprotective from Islam because they are afraid it will rob them of their roots and achieve what was not achieved through genocide... I understand (my great-grandparents survived the genocide). But I think that what was done and what is happening now at the hands of so-called Muslims, is not really what Islam is about.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

La illahe alla, muhammade rasulla, bismillah ramone rahim something similar right?

 

I would never, I'm religious and proud Christian, but even if I weren’t I’d never become Muslim I believe Islam is pretty much of an evil religion.

There was a program on the TV, A Muslim guy was talking and he went on to say that he's Muslim if someone hits him, he'll kill the person, then he added- I'm not a Christian to turn my other chick I’ll just kill the person

ALMA

It's "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul Allah"

 

Someone who will be a Muslim, has to say the two "Shahada"s (i.e. bear witness)

 

the 1st:

Ash-hadu an La Ilaha Illa Allah (I bear witness that there is no God but one God)

the 2nd:

Ash-hadu an Muhammada Rasul Allah (I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God)

 

You'd actually be surprised how many things there are in common between Christianity and Islam.

 

In fact, and not many know this, Muslims consider Jesus (Isa) to be a Prophet.

 

It's wrong to generalize about an entire religion and millions of people based on what one person or a few people (or any number that is unrepresentative of hundreds of millions of people) has said. Don't you think so?

 

So you would not consider a Muslim Armenian to be Armenian?

[Yervant1]

Burkas?

 

Or you mean Hijab?

 

They're different things.

 

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

If I meant hijab I would have written hijab,

As if believing in one man made religion is not enough, changing it to another one is even worse.

[AK-47]

Burkas?

 

Or you mean Hijab?

 

They're different things.

 

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

Actually, i've heard that in true Islam (not the bastardized one Islamic states follow), the hijab is not necessary for a woman.

[AK-47]

I'd accept them seeing as they probably did not have much of a choice when they converted to Islam. But anyway, in my opinion, our sense of Armenianness should come first. And I guess down the line, we could de-Islamicize them if they wish to move to Armenia since the image of Armenian women walking in hijabs in the first state to adopt Christianity doesn't seem too pleasing to my eye lol.

[Sip]

If it's a man, I'll still consider them an Armenian. If it's a woman, I'll consider them 1/2 an Armenian according to Islamic rules. But in true Armenian style, I'll make fun of their stupidity and put them down either way, any chance that I get. Of all the dumb ass things to do, why would anyone willingly convert to "Islam" beats me.

 

I mean I understand a guy converting to Islam to get it on with a girl but I will never understand the desparation level required for a woman to convert to Islam to marry an Islamic man. Other than marriage, I can't see any other reason why ANYONE would convert religion ... hmmm I guess surviving in prison is another good reason but that's not really "converting" ... that's pretending.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Sip

[Johannes]

Այժմ տաճիկ ազգերը սկսած են ազգային (իրենց) անուններով կոչուիլ, բայց ընդհանրապէս արաբական անուններով կը կոչուին:

Եթէ շիի պիտ ըլլայ հայ մը .հասան հուսէնի եւ զայնաբի որդի իսմայէլեան

Իսկ եթէ սուննի պիտ ըլլայ .օմար ահմետի եւ այշայի որդի մոհամեդեան

Հաճելի՞ է Սասուն Տալւորիկի որդի Տուրուբերանեան:

Դուն Ալհայաթ կայանէն եգիպտացի վարդապետ Զաքարիա Պետրոսի յաղորդումերը կ'ունկնդրե՞ս:

[Sassun]

Actually, i've heard that in true Islam (not the bastardized one Islamic states follow), the hijab is not necessary for a woman.

Actually, you are wrong. There are some "liberal" western-bred "clerics" that say this, and I think it is mostly due to the issue of accommodating the west.

Anyway, I know of no cleric in the Muslim world to have said that Hijab is not obligatory. The Qur'an is also very clear about this....

 

I'd accept them seeing as they probably did not have much of a choice when they converted to Islam.

I think you got me wrong. I am not talking about those who were forcefully converted or whatever. I am talking about someone who converts by choice. For example, an Armenian in Lebanon converting to Islam. But still feeling just as much Armenian as before..

[Sassun]

If it's a man, I'll still consider them an Armenian. If it's a woman, I'll consider them 1/2 an Armenian according to Islamic rules. But in true Armenian style, I'll make fun of their stupidity and put them down either way, any chance that I get. Of all the dumb ass things to do, why would anyone willingly convert to "Islam" beats me.

 

I mean I understand a guy converting to Islam to get it on with a girl but I will never understand the desparation level required for a woman to convert to Islam to marry an Islamic man. Other than marriage, I can't see any other reason why ANYONE would convert religion ... hmmm I guess surviving in prison is another good reason but that's not really "converting" ... that's pretending.

Hi Sip

I understand if you do not think highly of religion and do not understand why anyone would convert, but there are people out there who are believers and do practice religion. Whether or not you think it's stupid is another matter. But there is nothing stupid about someone converting to Islam based on belief. Though I kind of feel offended that you think that someone converts to Islam merely to "get it on with a girl" or "to marry an Islamic man". In fact, neither is necessary in Islam, since a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim (Jewish or Christian) woman and a non-Muslim woman can marry a Muslim man.

 

[Sassun]

AK-47

You raise an interesting point re: seeing Hijab-wearing women in the first state to accept Christianity.

Are you saying that Christian identity is inseparable from Armenian identity?

I know that historically Christianity has always been a strong (if not the strongest) element in holding the nation together, but do you think it is still as valid today, after we have a very solid national identity that is not related to practicing Christianity on a daily (or even monthly) basis anymore (mostly Christian in name)? I think here the issue of lifestyle is also important, and one of the main reasons why Armenians would not accept a "Muslim Armenian". But think about it. If a Muslim Armenian (someone who has converted to Islam willingly) identifies strongly as Armenian, speaks Armenian, thinks in Armenian, and eats the best food ever-- Armenian food of course, dolma sarma manti yevaylen , do you think that this person would really not be Armenian just because he is Muslim and prays 5 times a day, observes Muslim holidays, and so on? Regardless of whether or not you might think it's stupid for someone to go after organized religion or to convert to Islam.

A devout Christian Armenian would still be considered Armenian.

Thus, religiosity is not the issue here.

The issue is about different religion and also about lifestyle.

And then again, converting to Islam does not mean one abandons one's lifestyle or culture completely. Only some aspects that might be contradictory.

[Sassun]

Այժմ տաճիկ ազգերը սկսած են ազգային (իրենց) անուններով կոչուիլ, բայց ընդհանրապէս արաբական անուններով կը կոչուին:

Եթէ շիի պիտ ըլլայ հայ մը .հասան հուսէնի եւ զայնաբի որդի իսմայէլեան

Իսկ եթէ սուննի պիտ ըլլայ .օմար ահմետի եւ այշայի որդի մոհամեդեան

Հաճելի՞ է Սասուն Տալւորիկի որդի Տուրուբերանեան:

Դուն Ալհայաթ կայանէն եգիպտացի վարդապետ Զաքարիա Պետրոսի յաղորդումերը կ'ունկնդրե՞ս:

Անունը ի՞նչ կապ ունի ասոր հետ: Ոչ մէկ կապ չունի:

Մարդիք եթէ այդպէս կը կոչեն իրենց զաւակները, այդ չի նշանակեր թէ ստիպողական է: Իրենք պարզապէս այդպէս կը փափաքին եւ ազատ են այդպէս ընել:

Ոչ, ես Ալհայաթ կայանը չեմ դիտեր: Բայց հիմա նայեցայ թէ ով է այդ մարդը եւ այնպէս կ'երեւի կոր որ Իսլամներու դէմ է:

 

Ես ալ քեզի հարցնեմ՝ կարդացե՞ր ես Իմամ Ալիի «Նահճ Պալաղա»ն: Անգլերէնով՝ «Nahj Balagha» (Peak of Eloquence):

Եթէ կարդաս ուղակի կը զմայլիս: Արաբերէնով է եւ կրնայ ըլլալ որ գիտես լեզուն. Այդ վարդապէտին խօսքերուն հաւատալու տէղ բորձէ կարդալ այդ գիրքը: Անգլերէնով ալ կայ կարծեմ, բայց թարգմանութիւնը չի կրնար գեղեցկութիւնը եւ ճշգրտութիւնը լիովին պահել:

Edited May 25, 2007 by Sassun

[Arpa]

What I don’t understand is this compulsion to have a religion, any religion, if not one, the other.

Where is it written that man should have a religion? Who wrote it?

Granted that man is a spiritual, thinking, wondering, questioning, curious animal, as opposed to other mammals. I have said this before. It seems like man does need “religion”, otherwise we wouldn’t have invented it. As the saying goes “necessity is the mother of invention”. It seem there is a need for religion , hence the invention. I said "invention" since it is a human invention.

What it is that one cannot find in one religion that they must search in others. Hocus pocus is hocus pocus no matter in what language. How is Muslim mythology any different or better than Christian mythology, except that the latter is modeled after the Greek with trinity (father mother son) etc.

To me, searching another religion is reminiscent of those who undergo sex change procedures, who claim that even if their physique is of one gender their psyche is of another. Do you think those people find eternal peace? I doubt it.

They asked the skunk why it moves to a new house so often. It says that every house it moves in smells. The house??? smells???

Someone above said that Muslims acknowledge Jesus and Moses as “prophets”. First off , what is the Arabic for “prophet”, do they really have prophets in the judeo-christian sense? Mohammed is a “rassoul” a messenger առաքեալ/apostle** letter carrier, is that their term for prophet ? And also, as Jesus and Moses, in Islam Adam Abraham and Noah are also called “prophets”. So, don’t be so fast to judge. They place Jesus in the same level as that fictitious idiot Noah. Besides, no one has yet any evidence to show the historicity of either Abraham or Moses.

Let us go back to the skunk story. How is one house/religion better that the other when it is us that smells, not the house.

 

WHY DOES THIS SUBJECT CROP UP PERIODICALLY?

ARE ARMENIANS CONVERTING TO ISLAM EN MASSE?

OR ARE SOME PEOPLE TESTING THE WATERS BEFORE THEY MAKE A HEADLONG DIVE?

 

* do the Arabs have a word for prophet? The Persians use “peghambar” which is a legacy of their pre-Islamic culture.

** Do you see the "post" in "apostle"?

Edited May 25, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

What I don’t understand is this compulsion to have

** Do you see the "post" in "apostle"?

Please “pardon my slip”.

I may have taken too many silly pills this morning..

If apostle means messenger, letter carrier then should we call our letter carriers առաքեալ, shall we rename our post offices առաքելատուն, առաքելարան, and similarly, call our mother church a mailroom, post office?

Once again. Please forgive my silliness, but then again how much sillier am I than that concept of religion?

[Johannes]

Անուանափոխութեան վերաբերեալ պատասխանէդ հասկցայ որ դուն աշխարհէն «բեխաբար» ես Սասունիկ:

Չըլլայ թէ՝ Սինիորայի դէմ նստացոյցերու ընթացքին Հըզբոլլայական սիրուն աղջիկ մը նուիրեց քեզ այդ նահջ բալաղան:

Կը խրատեմ քեզ՝ քիչ մը հայոց պատմութիւն կարդալ, «նահջ ըլ բակաղայ»ի առընթեր:

Յետ գրութիւն.

-գրուածներուն շատ մի հաւատար, մանաւանդ իմ գրածներուս:

-«Պեշկիր» թերեւս պարկերէն է, պարսկաստանի հոգեկից հարաւցիները թերեւս, այդ պատճաով այդ բառը կը գործ ածեն: