Muslim Armenian?

[Dave]

Regardless of all the details, what Islam officially imposes is nothing less than a form of segregation.

Who are they to think that Christians are inferior to them?

 

First , in Islam, "ahl al dhimma" do not pay taxes to tribes...

 

Then you don't have an idea of how Armenians were treated in the late Ottoman period.

 

Can you please explain Dave how come Sunni Turkey supports Shi'ite Azerbaijan ?

We all know the Sunni- Shi'ite divide, you said it yourself "irar guh pezegden gor".

 

We are led to believe that most of Azerbaijan and Turkey are secular because of the Soviet Union's influence on one side, and Mustapha Kemal on the other side. Besides, if Christian Armenia is close to Shiite Iran, and if Tashnagtsoutioun is close to Hezballah, why wouldn't an alliance between Turkey and Azerbaijan be possible?

 

You've probably already seen this, or this has probably already been cited in this discussion. What do you think of this woman:

 

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=129...9344&q=Arab

[Arpa]

Ak-47

First a note about the forced conversion thing. Islam does not condone such an act. There is something that we call "da'awa" دعوة which essentially is a call and an invitation for non-Muslims to embrace Islam. Forced conversion is not in any way part of Islam, and this again proves my point that what the Turks were doing was based on their TUrkism and not based on their being Muslims...

Would be kind enough to tell us what brand of wacky tabacky you are smoking?

No forced conversion?

Ask some of the survivors of the Genocide, or better yet ask those who chose to be slaughtered by the sword rather than embrace the crescent.

Wow!!

Hallucination has its limits too.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Arpa

[Anoushik]

So, let me ask you this: what do you think that a Muslim Armenian should do? If you were me (HYPOTHETICALLY, because I know you do not want to be me ) what would you have done ?

Well, there are a few choices, let me make it easier for you:

1) Convert "back" (apostasy) and (maybe? maybe not?) be accepted once more by Armenians

2) Give up on Armenianness...

3) Fight (with the pen not the sword....) tooth and nail those who do not wish to accept you, and try to convince them to accept you...

4) Wait and see / do nothing...

5) Give up on both Islam and Armenianness....

 

**

 

I'm somewhere between #3 & #4... in 'real life' I am on #4... though #2 has sometimes , admittedly, tempted me... and on this forum , I am at #3. #5 is out of the question.

I'm guessing your reply would be: #1...

But you know what #1 is equal to? It is equal to treating the symptom instead of the disease.

Sassun, convert back. You obviously feel great connectness to your past and to your culture. If you didn't, you wouldn't bother politely leading this topic and trying to convince us. Just convert back. It's ok. People will understand and they will welcome you with open arms. Just look at this as a great educational experience, where you've gained much more insight into Islam. Everybody makes decisions in life where it later proves to be not the best (or long-lasting) decision, and the good thing is that we all have options to choose different paths in life and move on.

 

Also, as regards to your great religiosity: why is it important to you to follow a religion that places great demands on its followers in their daily, physical lives? Isn't the spiritual closeness to God more desirable if one is a true believer?

[Anoushik]

But you know what #1 is equal to? It is equal to treating the symptom instead of the disease.

If by disease you mean the search for something greater in this life, then I have to ask you why Islam? I think you must've gone through a spiritual struggle in your life, searching for answers, reading others' philosophies about life and existence. Why Islam? Isn't your conversion to Islam equal to treating the symptom? We all carry around the disease until we die, and I think that some of us forget about the disease, some of us ignore it and some of us struggle with it for the rest of our lives. The only way to get rid of the disease is death itself. But then what? That's the human tragedy and we're all in this together.

[Sassun]

Dave

No one thinks Christians are inferior to Muslims. Dhimma is NOT about inferiority. I thought I already explained it.

 

I know how Armenians were treated in the Ottoman empire... I know they had to pay taxes to tribes, etc.

I am saying, this is not what Islam is about. In Islam, ahl al dhimma do not pay taxes to tribes. Which goes to prove my point that Islam was being used as a mere "convenience" for Turkic nationalist/chauvinistic objectives...

 

We are led to believe that most of Azerbaijan and Turkey are secular because of the Soviet Union's influence on one side, and Mustapha Kemal on the other side. Besides, if Christian Armenia is close to Shiite Iran, and if Tashnagtsoutioun is close to Hezballah, why wouldn't an alliance between Turkey and Azerbaijan be possible?

You did not get what I was saying... Iran's and Armenia's connection is one of convenience for Iran and necessity for Armenia... Turkey is in no such position, nor is Azerbaijan. Their connection goes beyond their shared religion. Their connection is racial/ethnic , it has to do with Turkic solidarity... if all there is to relations between Muslim countries is Muslim solidarity then Iran should have been the first to support Azerbaijan... One more thing: Turkey today oppresses Kurds, overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim... yet it supports Shi'ite Azerbaijan and even closes the border with Armenia in solidarity... I hope you will not say that this is all about an alliance or religion...

Does Iran boycott Armenia and support Azerbaijan ??

 

I watched the video...

It is funny I must say...

She is such a manipulator.

She talks about Jews not having blown themselves up in restaurants.

She forgets who started modern day terrorism by blowing up the King David Hotel.

She forgets the terrorism of Jews in Egypt (Lavon Affair)

And here I am not even talking about the ethnic cleansing against Palestinians or the massacre of thousands upon thousands of civilians (including thousands of women and children in Lebanon only last summer) in the name of their so-called "land of Israel". That is not terrorism but blowing oneself up in a restaurant is ? America's crusade in Iraq is not terrorism (with victims in the hundreds of thousands), but blowing oneself up in a restaurant is ? What kind of standard of judgment is that???? Either both are terrorism or neither are.

Christians and Jews have not desecrated Muslim places of worship???

What about the thousands of Mosques that Jews totally annihilated in Palestine?

What about the hundreds of Mosques that Jews bombed in Lebanon last summer?

What about the "settlers" who continuously destroy Mosques in "West Bank"?

What about the Jew who opened fire in a Mosque on Muslim worshipers in Al-Khalil (Hebron ) , Palestine , killing more than 30 ,injuring more than 300?? ???

What about Muslim cemeteries in Jaffa that are totally desecrated , the tombstones carried off by thieves ?

What about the "Museum of tolerance" built on top of a Muslim cemetery?

Buddhists have not destroyed or bombed Muslim targets, or killed Muslims ?

What about in Thailand where Mosques are bombed and Muslims are killed?

And as for other religions, what about in India where only recently a bomb went off at a Mosque in Hyderabad?? That's not terrorism?

She talks about the Holocaust. It is funny that she talks about "civilizations" and praises "Christian/Western civilization" and does not realize that she admits to the barbarism of the "Christians" who committed the genocide against Jews.

She even takes issue with the term "Ahl al kitab" and "ahl al dhimma" ???

It seems she just wants to get as much attention as possible by saying 'controversial' things.

She talks about so-called calls for forceful conversion, and then calls upon Muslims to change their school "curricula". What manipulation!!!! Now school curricula is what Islam is all about? School curricula are what the Qur'an is about???

And what is it with her double standards ? She says Muslims should not call people ahl al kitab, etc., but she is the one who is doing the name calling, too.... she just called Muslims primitive, uncivilized, etc.

 

And she is wrong that Muslims came up with the idea of clash of civilizations... it was Samuel Huntington in his famous book. THough actually Huntington took it from the famous Turkophile Bernard Lewis.

And that Christianity is "civilized" (maybe she forgot the Crusaders).

Maybe she forgot the forced conversion of people to Christianity.

Or the crimes against Muslims.

 

Americans and Jews love it when "one of our own" says such things, but trust me, it makes no difference to us (and she is not "one of our own, either.... she said so herself)... the important thing is the message she is conveying. Trust me, she is not important, although she wants to give that impression by being so outspoken. I already destroyed 99% of her arguments.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

Would be kind enough to tell us what brand of wacky tabacky you are smoking?

No forced conversion?

Ask some of the survivors of the Genocide, or better yet ask those who chose to be slaughtered by the sword rather than embrace the crescent.

Wow!!

Hallucination has its limits too.

I do not need to ask , Arpa. I know that my great-grandparents escaped it.

Maybe you misread my post ..

I was not saying that it did not happen.

I am saying that Islam does not condone such a thing (see the verse in the Qur'an I mentioned, "there is no compulsion in religion").

[Sassun]

Sassun, convert back. You obviously feel great connectness to your past and to your culture. If you didn't, you wouldn't bother politely leading this topic and trying to convince us. Just convert back. It's ok. People will understand and they will welcome you with open arms. Just look at this as a great educational experience, where you've gained much more insight into Islam. Everybody makes decisions in life where it later proves to be not the best (or long-lasting) decision, and the good thing is that we all have options to choose different paths in life and move on.

 

Also, as regards to your great religiosity: why is it important to you to follow a religion that places great demands on its followers in their daily, physical lives? Isn't the spiritual closeness to God more desirable if one is a true believer?

Anoushik

 

You said I feel great connectedness to my past and culture. I am a Muslim. Doesn't that show that a Muslim can also be Armenian, and an Armenian can also be a Muslim?

 

Let me ask you something else, what would you lose if you accept me the way I am ?

Is it that:

1) You cannot comprehend the IDEA of a non-Christian Armenian?

or

2) You think I will harm the Armenian cause?

or

3) You think I will be like a cancer, or the enemy within ?

or

4) You think that I will try to convert more Armenians to Islam, and that this is a dangerous thing for Armenian continuity?

or

5) Other (specify)...

 

Or any combination of the above?

So far, I have understood that people have difficulty accepting, based on historical experiences, but I have not really understood the practical reasons / implications that they base their non-acceptance on...

 

**

 

Even if (hypothetically) I converted "back", I would not be able to associate myself with the Armenian community in this country.

Maybe you do not understand the implications of what happened when I converted.

I am talking about CHILDHOOD FRIENDS. People I grew up with. People I was friends with since we were 3 years old. People who were closer to me than my own parents. People I wanted to remain friends with no matter my new religion and no matter that they were Christian, but who pushed me away and even threatened to hurt me. ARMENIANS.

I cannot just go back (if, hypothetically, I converted "back") as if nothing had happened. I'm a human being and have feelings. It is hard enough for any human being to accept and deal with the loss of a friend, let alone childhood friends, who were like brothers to me. All for what? In the name of a cause -- Armenianness -- that I have not and will never give up on, nor has my loyalty to my homeland and people lessened one tiny bit, not even after what they did.

The night before I told them, I spent the whole night awake, thinking if I should tell them at all. I had a feeling that this might happen, but I could not wrap my head around the idea that an Armenian - and my best friends to boot - would treat another Armenian in this manner. I could not grasp the idea, so I dismissed it (though for some reason, the fear did not fully disappear).

 

I don't know, maybe one day they will regret (and understand). Maybe not. But one thing is for sure, whether or not I convert "back", they are no longer my friends (not after what they did, and what they did is far more than mere rejection, it evolved into terrorizing and mocking, phone calls, etc.), and the Armenian community is not "my" community. It'd be hard enough (though I would not mind doing so) to talk with them even IF/AFTER they accept me.

If Armenianness is about such modes of behavior then I am better off not being considered "Armenian".

 

I don't think you fully understand my bitterness. If I had harmed the Armenian cause, or if I had given up on my Armenian identity, I would have understood (and deserved) such treatment. But I have done none of that, and so, no, I do not deserve such treatment. If for you I do deserve such treatment, then there is nothing more to talk about.

[Johannes]

1. Նահճ Պալաղային մասին խօսեցայ պարզապէս որպէս օրինակ: Չեմ գիտեր թէ ինչպէս այդ եզրակացութեան հասար թէ ես կրօնքին մասին շատ բան չեմ գիտեր:

 

Բան չես գիտեր որովհետեւ սաուդցիները հերձուածող կը համարես, մինչ այդ երկրէն ծնունդ առած է հետեւածդ մարգարէն եւ իր կրօնը:

 

4. Եթէ Մուսլիման եմ կը նշանակէ թէ ամէն ինչ գիտեմ իմ կրօնքիս մասին: Իսկ դուն Վարդապէտ Զագարիաին խօսածներուն հիման վրայ կը կարծե՞ս կոր որ գիտես Իսլամութիւնը ինչ կը նշանակէ: Իսլամութիւնը Քրիստոնէութեան պէս չէ՝ մէկը քիչ բան գիտնալով կրնա ինքզինք Քրիստոնեայ համարել, բայց մէկը որ ինքզինքը Մուսլիման կը կոչէ պէտք է գիտնայ ամէն ինչ իր կրօնքին մասին եւ նաեւ գործադրէ:

 

Իսլամութեան մասին գիտցածս ինծի կը բաւէ, իսկ Զաքարիան իր գիտելիքովը, քո ուլեմաները իր գրպանի անկիւնը կը դնէ:

 

Տաճիկ ի՞նչ կը նշանակէ: Թուրքերո՞ւ հետ կապ ունի: Ես Թուրքերուն հետ կապ չունիմ ոչ ալ կ'ուզեմ ունենալ: Իսկ ինչ կը վերաբերի հարցումիդ՝ թէ ինչ պիտի ընեմ իմ հայրենիքիս համար, ի՞նչու կը հարցնես այս հարցումը: Ես որպէս հայ կը խօսիմ եւ որպէս հայ ալ կը գործեմ: Իսլամութիւնը կրօնք է, եւ Իսլամները ունին նաեւ ազգային պատկանելիութիւն եւ սէր իրենց հայրենիքին հանդէպ:

 

Իսլամ կրօնի ուսուցումով. դուն եւ ռաջաբ տայյիբ երդողանը իսկական եղբայրներ էք:

 

Ըստ երեւոյթին տաճիկ անունը չսիրեցիր, կրնամ քեզ տալ ղզլբաշ (կըզըլբաշ) անունը: Լսա՞ծ ես անոնց մասին:

 

This mosque in Yerevan , has anyone been there ? Anyone seen it ?

Who is it for ? Does anyone go there ? Who built it ?

Are they able to have the athan out loud or they are not allowed ?

Հայոց պատմութիւնէն տեղեակ չես, տեղեակ չես արեւելեան Հայաստանի Պարսկական (Իրանեան) գրաւումէն, թուրքախօս խաներու կատարած գործերէն:

 

Այս մզկիթը Իրան-Հայաստան բարեկամութեան սիրոյն կը խնամուի կը պահպանուի:

 

Գրեցիր թէ Սասունցի Դաւիթի սիրահար ես: Ուրեմն պէտք է տեղեակ ըլլաս Մսրայ մելիքի մասին (Մսրայ Մելիք=Եգիպտոսի թագաւոր-Ֆաթիմեան Եգիպտոսը, Մելուք Եգիպտոսը եւ Կիլիկիոյ անումը 1375ին. Ի՞նչ գիտես այս ամէնի մասին):

 

 

[Sassun]

I forgot to answer this:

 

Also, as regards to your great religiosity: why is it important to you to follow a religion that places great demands on its followers in their daily, physical lives? Isn't the spiritual closeness to God more desirable if one is a true believer?

Let me tell you that, contrary to what you think, for me, the 'requirements' of Islam in daily life are something I do very happily and not grudgingly as many claim we do. It is part of who a Muslim is / should be. It is not really "a great demand" as you called it, it is a duty, and it is the minimum one can do. In Islam, there are acts that are "wajib" (duty) and there are ones that are "mustahabb" (recommended). Many people make additional prayers and so on, and that is mustahabb..

 

I have to tell you that before I converted, when I was (technically) a Christian (Orthodox) , I did not really feel spiritual closeness to God. When I used to pray (well I never prayed except when we had to , in school ) , I felt it was just meaningless, and I felt that people around me were just pretend-believers , but with Islam it is different , when I go to the Mosque , I feel already how people really believe and that for them religion is part of their life and not something that they bring up whenever they want 'favors' from God.... In Christianity you do not have the sense of a community the same way you feel in Islam. In Islam , all believers are like one family , there is no bad will or intention among people , strangers at the Mosque do not think about things like , look what this person is wearing or what that person is wearing, they do not gossip behind each others' backs. In Church , even if these things do not happen usually , there is no sense of community when you pray or go to the mass , every person is more or less "alone" , even though the amalgamation of individuals might constitute a "Christian community". You know what I mean????? (I'm trying to explain but it's difficult to put it into words...)

 

 

[Sassun]

Johannes

You are accusing left and right about me not knowing what MY RELIGION is about, I suggest that you stop doing so , because you do not know me and do not know what I know, even if you might overestimate your knowledge of Islam.

 

YES, SAUDI ARABIANS today are as far from Islam as anyone can be.

The Qur'an talks about those types of people,

Al - Nisa' (4) : 60

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ آمَنُواْ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ يُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَحَاكَمُواْ إِلَى الطَّاغُوتِ وَقَدْ أُمِرُواْ أَن يَكْفُرُواْ بِهِ وَيُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَن يُضِلَّهُمْ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيدًا

Al- Nisa' : 142

إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَهُوَ خَادِعُهُمْ وَإِذَا قَامُواْ إِلَى الصَّلاَةِ قَامُواْ كُسَالَى يُرَآؤُونَ النَّاسَ وَلاَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللّهَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً

 

Al - Nisa' : 150-151

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْفُرُونَ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيْنَ اللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيقُولُونَ نُؤْمِنُ بِبَعْضٍ وَنَكْفُرُ بِبَعْضٍ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَّخِذُواْ بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ سَبِيلاً

أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ حَقًّا وَأَعْتَدْنَا لِلْكَافِرِينَ عَذَابًا مُّهِيناً

 

I know Armenian history , but I do not remember much of it as it has been years since I finished Armenian school. I remember things vaguely , and not chronologically at all. No need to attack me for that. I did not claim to be an expert on Armenian history.

 

Also ,what is your point in bringing up Armenian history, I already said I recognize that Armenian history is full of resistance against 'Muslim' rule. What does that prove ? What are you trying to prove ? That I cannot be Muslim and Armenian ? How do you prove that I cannot be a Muslim , based on Armenian history ??? I mean what is the connection , even if the Armenian Church and Christianity was part of Armenian identity in the past. Does it have to be so today ?

Edited May 28, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

And about the Mosque , when you say it is being taken care of for the sake of Iranian-Armenian friendship , if Iran and Armenia are no longer on good terms , you would destroy it ?????!??!??!?!

[Sassun]

If by disease you mean the search for something greater in this life, then I have to ask you why Islam? I think you must've gone through a spiritual struggle in your life, searching for answers, reading others' philosophies about life and existence. Why Islam? Isn't your conversion to Islam equal to treating the symptom? We all carry around the disease until we die, and I think that some of us forget about the disease, some of us ignore it and some of us struggle with it for the rest of our lives. The only way to get rid of the disease is death itself. But then what? That's the human tragedy and we're all in this together.

You over-analyzed my statement.

It was meant to be simpler than that.

In that sentence, I meant the disease to be the non-acceptance of Muslim Armenians. Instead of fixing that, people are saying I should convert "back"...

 

**

 

Sure, I have gone through a spiritual struggle. My conversion is part of that. But while you think it's treating the symptom, I think it's treating the disease. though of course it has given rise to some (ok, major) side effects... But do you stop chemotherapy on a cancer patient just because his hair is falling off and his body is becoming weaker ?

Edited May 28, 2007 by Sassun

[phantom22]

Sassun,

 

If you had sought the true message of Christ as I have, you would have realized that you don't need a church to feel the power of Christ's true teachings. You don't need a community when his spirit enters your being. He was strongly influenced by Buddhism during his lost years studing in the East.

 

The hierarchy of the organized Churches have destroyed the true word of Christ through centuries of spilling of blood.

 

Why do so-called men of God need to spill the blood of those whom they feel are non-believers? The history of the Christian and Moslem so-called leaders is nothing but a long history of spilling blood and causing innocent deaths.

 

I forgot to answer this:

Let me tell you that, contrary to what you think, for me, the 'requirements' of Islam in daily life are something I do very happily and not grudgingly as many claim we do. It is part of who a Muslim is / should be. It is not really "a great demand" as you called it, it is a duty, and it is the minimum one can do. In Islam, there are acts that are "wajib" (duty) and there are ones that are "mustahabb" (recommended). Many people make additional prayers and so on, and that is mustahabb..

 

I have to tell you that before I converted, when I was (technically) a Christian (Orthodox) , I did not really feel spiritual closeness to God. When I used to pray (well I never prayed except when we had to , in school ) , I felt it was just meaningless, and I felt that people around me were just pretend-believers , but with Islam it is different , when I go to the Mosque , I feel already how people really believe and that for them religion is part of their life and not something that they bring up whenever they want 'favors' from God.... In Christianity you do not have the sense of a community the same way you feel in Islam. In Islam , all believers are like one family , there is no bad will or intention among people , strangers at the Mosque do not think about things like , look what this person is wearing or what that person is wearing, they do not gossip behind each others' backs. In Church , even if these things do not happen usually , there is no sense of community when you pray or go to the mass , every person is more or less "alone" , even though the amalgamation of individuals might constitute a "Christian community". You know what I mean????? (I'm trying to explain but it's difficult to put it into words...)

 

[Boghos]

Dear Sassun,

In a way I am happy that you come to Hyeforum and expose your feelings and ideas about religion and being Armenian.What you are describing is a very simple phenomenon: assimilation.It is just a matter of time.In your case you just speeded up things considerably:if you indeed stick to this fantasies that you so aptly describe then you´ll marry a Muslim and your children most likely will not attend Armenian school.So that´s it.The matter of you remaining Armenian or not by virtue of your conversion is immaterial.As it has been discussed here at nauseaum this is a futile exercise.

 

However there is one thing that struck me as contradictory:if there comes the time to use the sword,as a Muslim you´ll have to kill Armenians.Unless the Islam you describe is just yours and hence all the mumbo-jumbo about umaa and etc is nonsense.

 

[Dave]

Dave

No one thinks Christians are inferior to Muslims. Dhimma is NOT about inferiority. I thought I already explained it.

 

As I said, it's a form of segregation/classification, which is unacceptable. I never said inferiority.

 

There some places that are forbidden for Christians to enter (Mecca), and no churches can be built in Saudi Arabia in general. If you're allowed to convert to Islam, I think people should be allowed to worship Christianity, or convert to Christianity as well.

 

I know how Armenians were treated in the Ottoman empire... I know they had to pay taxes to tribes, etc.

I am saying, this is not what Islam is about. In Islam, ahl al dhimma do not pay taxes to tribes. Which goes to prove my point that Islam was being used as a mere "convenience" for Turkic nationalist/chauvinistic objectives...

 

You make no sence. Besides, the Ottoman Empire wasn't the only Islamic empire.

 

You did not get what I was saying... Iran's and Armenia's connection is one of convenience for Iran and necessity for Armenia... Turkey is in no such position, nor is Azerbaijan. Their connection goes beyond their shared religion. Their connection is racial/ethnic , it has to do with Turkic solidarity... if all there is to relations between Muslim countries is Muslim solidarity then Iran should have been the first to support Azerbaijan... One more thing: Turkey today oppresses Kurds, overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim... yet it supports Shi'ite Azerbaijan and even closes the border with Armenia in solidarity... I hope you will not say that this is all about an alliance or religion...

Does Iran boycott Armenia and support Azerbaijan ??

 

Is this really relevent to the discussion here? Turkey has no choice but to protect their Azeri brothers, or else they would have been crushed by Armenia. Besides, Iran has historic ties with Armenia, and it's only 1 Islamic country. The Islamic Conference supports Azerbaijan and demands Armenia's unconditional withdrawal from Karabagh.

 

I watched the video...

It is funny I must say...

She is such a manipulator.

She talks about Jews not having blown themselves up in restaurants.

She forgets who started modern day terrorism by blowing up the King David Hotel.

She forgets the terrorism of Jews in Egypt (Lavon Affair)

And here I am not even talking about the ethnic cleansing against Palestinians or the massacre of thousands upon thousands of civilians (including thousands of women and children in Lebanon only last summer) in the name of their so-called "land of Israel". That is not terrorism but blowing oneself up in a restaurant is ? America's crusade in Iraq is not terrorism (with victims in the hundreds of thousands), but blowing oneself up in a restaurant is ? What kind of standard of judgment is that???? Either both are terrorism or neither are.

Christians and Jews have not desecrated Muslim places of worship???

What about the thousands of Mosques that Jews totally annihilated in Palestine?

What about the hundreds of Mosques that Jews bombed in Lebanon last summer?

What about the "settlers" who continuously destroy Mosques in "West Bank"?

What about the Jew who opened fire in a Mosque on Muslim worshipers in Al-Khalil (Hebron ) , Palestine , killing more than 30 ,injuring more than 300?? ???

What about Muslim cemeteries in Jaffa that are totally desecrated , the tombstones carried off by thieves ?

What about the "Museum of tolerance" built on top of a Muslim cemetery?

Buddhists have not destroyed or bombed Muslim targets, or killed Muslims ?

What about in Thailand where Mosques are bombed and Muslims are killed?

And as for other religions, what about in India where only recently a bomb went off at a Mosque in Hyderabad?? That's not terrorism?

 

I've noticed that as well, she's exaggerating it a little. But it is true that the Muslims are the ones who started the whole thing by expanding from the Arabian Peninsula and stirring up the whole region. All of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc used to be Christian (Byzantine).

 

She talks about the Holocaust. It is funny that she talks about "civilizations" and praises "Christian/Western civilization" and does not realize that she admits to the barbarism of the "Christians" who committed the genocide against Jews.

 

There were not religious motivations for the massacre of the Jews, unilike the Armenian genocide. Another point that I forgot to mention: Armenians weren't the only ones killed during the 1915 genocide. Assyrians, as well as Pontian Greeks were massacred too. You still don't see a religious motivation.

 

And that Christianity is "civilized" (maybe she forgot the Crusaders).

Maybe she forgot the forced conversion of people to Christianity.

Or the crimes against Muslims.

 

Nowhere in the Bible it is writen that we have to do Crusades to be good, as opposed to the Koran which asks Muslims to kill the 'kafirs' in order to access the 40 virgins in heaven.

[Dave]

And about the Mosque , when you say it is being taken care of for the sake of Iranian-Armenian friendship , if Iran and Armenia are no longer on good terms , you would destroy it ?????!??!??!?!

 

Well they're the ones who paid for the renovations in the mosque. That's what they did in Karabagh as well. However, Azeris and Turks do no such things. Turkey merely renovated Akhtamar (without even adding a cross on top) in order to get praise from Europe.

[Sassun]

As I said, it's a form of segregation/classification, which is unacceptable. I never said inferiority.

Yes, you did ... here's what you said :

"Who are they to think that Christians are inferior to them?"

 

There some places that are forbidden for Christians to enter (Mecca), and no churches can be built in Saudi Arabia in general. If you're allowed to convert to Islam, I think people should be allowed to worship Christianity, or convert to Christianity as well.

Well ,did you read what I said about Saudi Arabia ? In Saudi Arabia there are also separate roads for Muslims and non-Muslims . They also treat the Shi'ite Saudi Arabians miserably , btw (though they sit on top of the Saudi oil wells ).. How does Saudi Arabian wahabi-salafi rule represent Islam ? In Iran there are CHurches and Church services / mass.

 

You make no sence. Besides, the Ottoman Empire wasn't the only Islamic empire.

Can you tell me in which "Islamic empire" the local tribes received taxes from ahl al dhimma?? And where in the Qur'an and ahadith it says so??

 

Turkey has no choice but to protect their Azeri brothers

Maybe. Maybe not. But the bottom line is, it does protect them. The question to be asked is: why?

I was answering the 'why'. You are focusing on the 'how'... you in fact answered the 'why' yourself:

"The Islamic Conference supports Azerbaijan and demands Armenia's unconditional withdrawal from Karabagh."

Do the members of the IC boycott Armenia?

Lebanon btw is a member of the IC.

Let me know when the members (other than Turkey and Azerbaijan) boycott Armenia , as a citizen of Lebanon, I will call on Lebanon to withdraw from the IC.

 

I've noticed that as well, she's exaggerating it a little. But it is true that the Muslims are the ones who started the whole thing by expanding from the Arabian Peninsula and stirring up the whole region. All of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc used to be Christian (Byzantine).

And before they used to be Christian they were something else. I do not understand what is your argument .

People -- analysts -- have debated the issue of clash of civilizations for a long time and they continue to debate it to this day. You along with that hateful woman , are coming to tell me you have resolved the debate ? By the way , , apart from Turkophile Bernard Lewis (who is Armenians' #2 enemy , after Turkey/Azerbaijan and Israel) and his fans, there are few who still insist on the clash of civilizations theory......

 

There were not religious motivations for the massacre of the Jews, unilike the Armenian genocide. Another point that I forgot to mention: Armenians weren't the only ones killed during the 1915 genocide. Assyrians, as well as Pontian Greeks were massacred too. You still don't see a religious motivation.

No, I do not see a religious motivation. I see a pan-Turkic motivation.

Didn't Ataturk call the Kurds "Mountain Turks " or something ?

They had assumed that the Kurds would assimilate into Turkish identity. in their thinking, it would've been much easier than assimilating Armenians or Greeks. When they refused, they turned also against the Kurds. Do I see a religious motivation??? No.

 

Nowhere in the Bible it is writen that we have to do Crusades to be good, as opposed to the Koran which asks Muslims to kill the 'kafirs' in order to access the 40 virgins in heaven.

WIll you please give me the chapter and verse in the Quran that says so?

My friend , if you find such a verse in the Qur'an , I will "convert back" . So go and start looking for it.

But let me make it easier for you, such a verse does not exist.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

Dear Sassun,

In a way I am happy that you come to Hyeforum and expose your feelings and ideas about religion and being Armenian.What you are describing is a very simple phenomenon: assimilation.It is just a matter of time.In your case you just speeded up things considerably:if you indeed stick to this fantasies that you so aptly describe then you´ll marry a Muslim and your children most likely will not attend Armenian school.So that´s it.The matter of you remaining Armenian or not by virtue of your conversion is immaterial.As it has been discussed here at nauseaum this is a futile exercise.

 

However there is one thing that struck me as contradictory:if there comes the time to use the sword,as a Muslim you´ll have to kill Armenians.Unless the Islam you describe is just yours and hence all the mumbo-jumbo about umaa and etc is nonsense.

Boghos

I have not become assimilated. Yes, I speak Arabic , and most ofthe time I am forced to think in Arabic , but that is not my fault. If I do not have many Armenians to talk to , with whom would I talk in Armenian during the day? To myself?

I am happy I have received Armenian education , and I would not trade that with anything else. Why would I necessarily marry a Muslim? There is no problem with marrying a Christian Armenian . And even if I do marry a Muslim (Arab) , my children will learn Armenian and I will talk to them in Armenian too, and possibly also send them to Armenian school . There is no problem with sending to Armenian school either , just because it is Christian? Many Muslim send their kids to private Christian schools. As long as my kids also learn about their religion outside of school, there is no problem , and in fact I would like my kids to learn Hayeren and Hayots badmootyoon and to have Armenian friends . But , again the issue is based on people's attitudes. will my kids be bullied for being Muslim , in an Armenian school ? The way things are now, they probably will. Would I subject my kids to that for the sake of having them learn Armenian ,etc. ? Is it worth it? Yes, it is worth it. Maybe they might change Armenians' attitudes in the future , something that i seem to do a miserable job at. (when I talk about this, I am assuming that Armenian schools would accept my children to be enrolled. if not, i will try to tell them a lot about what i know and what it was like for me to go to Armenian school, and try to teach them Armenian , though that is very difficult, and hayots badmootyoon, even though i do not remember much of it ) .

 

As for using the sword , I do not think you have a deep understanding of what "Jihad" is , and think that if any Muslm, anywhere in the world, declares "Jihad" , that every single Muslim must take up a sword and kill.. that is the kids' version of it. no , scratch that, that is the imaginary version of it. in reality it has nothing to do with that. i will add more on this point when i get home...

[Arpa]

OK!

I think we have had enough of this garbage balnoney.

If Sassun and his ilk are looking for alternate faiths they may consider Jehokak's Witnesses, Morons or any other stupid cunt I mean cult.

As if one's faecis smells any better than the other's.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Well they're the ones who paid for the renovations in the mosque. That's what they did in Karabagh as well. However, Azeris and Turks do no such things. Turkey merely renovated Akhtamar (without even adding a cross on top) in order to get praise from Europe.

I agree with the last part!!!

But I think that we must always not compare ourselves to Turkey.

So , for example , I hope that this Mosque would remain in its place even if relations with Iran turn sour .

 

I think that tolerance of Islam should not be a mere gesture , but rather a default... just like the other way around.

 

Also , so far no one has answered my question , are they allowed to do the athan (the call to prayers ) at the Mosque in Yerevan ? Can someone who has been to Armenia or used to live there or lives there now , tell me more about this ?? I cannot find enough information about it on the web . Are there any Muslims citizens of Armenia ? Are there any other Mosques in Armenia , outside Yerevan ? Who is the cleric in charge of the Mosque ??? Are the staff Iranian???

Really cool.

 

Another question , what are Iranians doing in Armenia ? And are there Iranian women there ? I mean, wearing Hijab and Chador and all ? ?? Don't people freak out when they see them ?? What are locals' attitudes towards them ?

[Sassun]

Phantom22

 

You know, Anoushik did put her finger on the spot , when she said that I must have gone through a spiritual struggle. And part of that has to do with my struggle with Christianity . I was never able to understand the importance of going to Church , or how people felt "good" about going to Church services / mass. (Most of my experience has been with Evangelical Church , though I used to go to Orthodox Church , the one in Antelias ,with my parents on Dzaghgazart and April 24 ) . I know that you can be Christian without going to Church . They say there is a Gospel in which Jesus said that the kingdom of God is not in buildings , or something like that.

 

I am not sure if I can really explain my 'story' with Christianity.... it's not that it did not appeal to me, it's just that I felt so distant from it. And it's not like I didn't try to believe... It's just that it's so ... passive..

 

And can I ask another question? Why do Protestants/Evangelicals emphasize the Old Testament so much ?

I mean, from what I know, the Jews place a lot of emphasis on the Psalms, but why the Protestants ???

We used to learn the Psalms (Saghmos) by heart....

I STILL remember which psalm #23 is, even though I have not opened the Bible in years... ... Տէրը իմ հովիւս է !!!

 

And???? Jesus studied in the east???

Studied what???

And how did he go to the east ??

This isn't in the Bible , is it ????

[Arpa]

Phantom22

 

You know, Anoushik did put her finger on the spot , when she said that I must have gone through a spiritual struggle.

====

And???? Jesus studied in the east???

Studied what???

And how did he go to the east ??

This isn't in the Bible , is it ????

I hate to do this to you, as otherwise you seem to be alovely person. You need more than spiritual guidance. You need psychiatric attention, just like those transsexuals and that skunk who said every house he moves smells the same as the one before..

Edited May 28, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

I hate to do this to you, as otherwise you seem to be alovely person. You need more than spiritual guidance. You need psychiatric attention, just like those transsexuals and that skunk who said every house he moves smells the same as the one before..

Arpa

No, I do not need psychiatric attention.

Why is it that just because I am 'different' than the rest of Armenians I need psychiatric help? Every person wants to 'belong' (unless one has chosen to live as a hermit ) , and so what is wrong if I want to also 'belong' , and to try to convince people that I am not all of a sudden a different person than I used to be?

 

We Armenians have also struggled to maintain our language and our ethnicity and not just our religion, but why do people accept mixed marriage? I know that some would even accept marriage with blacks , i know some BLACK Armenians and they are not outcasts the way I am . Sure , skin color is not the same as religion , but we are talking here about the choices of their father / mother in getting married to a black person.

 

Anyway , I respect that you disagree with me.

I hope one day you will change your mind.

 

[Sip]

Ok I seemed to have learned from this thread that Islam is the one TRUE religion that is universal. I am eagerly awaiting the next devout new member to sign up to claim the same of his or her religion (whatever that religion may be) in a few days.

 

How the hell some of you religious types get so brain washed into this cult mentality, I will never understand.

 

Allaho Akbar.

[Dave]

Yes, you did ... here's what you said :

"Who are they to think that Christians are inferior to them?"

 

Oops, my bad.

 

But my point still stands.

 

Well ,did you read what I said about Saudi Arabia ? In Saudi Arabia there are also separate roads for Muslims and non-Muslims . They also treat the Shi'ite Saudi Arabians miserably , btw (though they sit on top of the Saudi oil wells ).. How does Saudi Arabian wahabi-salafi rule represent Islam ? In Iran there are CHurches and Church services / mass.

 

I get it that you're shiite.

By the way, Iran doesn't allow evangelization,and all Christian women in Iran close their heads.

It is fine with me if you want native Christians to abide by your traditions. But why don't you Muslims do that in the West? In certain areas of Montreal, I feel like I'm in Sudan or Pakistan or something...

 

Maybe. Maybe not. But the bottom line is, it does protect them. The question to be asked is: why?

I was answering the 'why'. You are focusing on the 'how'... you in fact answered the 'why' yourself:

"The Islamic Conference supports Azerbaijan and demands Armenia's unconditional withdrawal from Karabagh."

Do the members of the IC boycott Armenia?

 

Lebanon btw is a member of the IC.

Let me know when the members (other than Turkey and Azerbaijan) boycott Armenia , as a citizen of Lebanon, I will call on Lebanon to withdraw from the IC.

 

Certain Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan do boycott Armenia.

So be my guest, and ask Lebanon to withdraw from the IC.

 

People -- analysts -- have debated the issue of clash of civilizations for a long time and they continue to debate it to this day. You along with that hateful woman , are coming to tell me you have resolved the debate ? By the way , , apart from Turkophile Bernard Lewis (who is Armenians' #2 enemy , after Turkey/Azerbaijan and Israel) and his fans, there are few who still insist on the clash of civilizations theory......

 

......for the sake of political correctness.

 

It doesn't take much to see that almost all wars in this world involve Muslims. It is always the Islamic countries vs. the others (either Christians, Jews, etc).

 

It is never France vs. Greece, England vs. Ukraine, etc.

 

They had assumed that the Kurds would assimilate into Turkish identity.

 

Thus there's a religious motivation.

 

My friend , if you find such a verse in the Qur'an , I will "convert back" .

 

Do it for your own sake, mate.