onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) THOTH, The Bible says that you are already perishing, but in death will God's wrath culminate to its fullest degree because your sins are still yours. God has given you a way out but you turn around and insult Him because you love your sin. It's that simple. Turn away from your sins and beseech God for forgiveness, as I have, before you die in your sins. Hell is real, you have believed a lie. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Thanks Sasun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 argh - OK - I self editied here...you happy Edward & Sasun....anyway - its just this sort of preachyness (and this - there is one way and only one way - and that is my way - attitude) that makes me just nuts about religion and "believers"....and this is why atheism is not a rteligion - well one of the reasons - I mean when have atheists ever gone on a crusade to convince others to not believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) THOTH, The Bible says that you are already perishing, but in death will God's wrath culminate to its fullest degree because your sins are still yours. God has given you a way out but you turn around and insult Him because you love your sin. It's that simple. Turn away from your sins and beseech God for forgiveness, as I have, before you die in your sins. Hell is real, you have believed a lie. "Gods wrath" ...but a way out - if we submit (hey have you ever looked into Islam?).... "Hell is real" - really? Your god sucks and you are fool.....what can I say...(sorry all...) Edited August 19, 2004 by THOTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 One question - why does the supreme being care if we "sin" ...whats the big deal? And does the punishment fit the crime? Anyway all just hypothisizing as GOD DOES NOT EXIST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) THOTH, Atheism is a religion, its worshipping yourself. You are your own arbitrator for spiritual truth. Here is what Paul the Apostle said about this in Romans 1:18-23: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." You have worshipped the form of corruptible man, that is yourself, that is atheism. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Onnig, do you realize that such concepts as "God's wrath", "eternal punishment", etc. contradict to the spirit of Jesus's teachings which is more like "God's love", "God's compassion" ? It always strikes me how many people do not see the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 That’s the discipline, no religion and no politics, just music when it is only music that matters Just I see a new bread of species emerging with shining swords and very much resemble the crusaders, with a slogan “eider you are with us or against us”, some even are cheering for the coming of Armageddon, couldn’t they be more happy, it’s a joys times for them. and every broken sole intends to find refuge in some organized religious nut structures, looks like humanity has taken a U turn to dark ages, and I see dangerous pattern, especially here and in middle east, so my friend I ask you, since man kind has murdered, raped, robed etc… more of its kind in the name of God then any other forms of death, what do you see and evaluate, why is it necessary to convinced me I’m sinful and my sole has to be saved, no I want my money back, when I was born no one told me I’m sin, I have my own convictions, and I very much keep it to my self, and my 11th commandment, “thou shell those keep the religion to them self’s” Edward, I do not operate with Church dogmas and I regard the institution of Church (religion) as a dead organism. This, however, does not mean that there is no some good clergy left out there. Faith, belief, spritual needs are very different from religion. Church is just another structure like government and it was one of the primary institutions that mutated Christianity to what it is now. I do not get my knowledge about Christianity for one source so that it can be viewed as dogma and I do not view other faiths as inferiour to Christianity. To give you an idea where do I come from: - Edouard Schure "The Great Initiates" 1889. The book coveres Rama, Krishna, Hermes, Orpheus, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and expaines why Jesus is AT THIS MOMENT OF HISTORY the pivotal figure and not the other ones. He also gaves detailed explanation of what role did all those personalities and figures play in the history of humankind. Each one of them is a period of transformation of humankind and advance to a new level of consciousness and cognition. This book is a good representative of where I come from but there is vast literature of many other writers along the same pattern. As to the religion itself (as an institution, dogma, mechanizm that is very different from faith) it is at this moment on of the greatest dangers as you mentioned. It had a positive role before but, as many other human beginning, it did not and could not withstand the blow. I have a very different explanation of sin, commendments... which I cannot explain in one single post. Or rather I would not explain it to anyone but rather give the sources where I read that. Regarding you 11-th commendment: isn't freedom of speech one of your values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 winston please for the last time, keep it clean of leave the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) One question - why does the supreme being care if we "sin" ...whats the big deal? And does the punishment fit the crime? Anyway all just hypothisizing as GOD DOES NOT EXIST! God is Holy above all things. All things exist through Him, by Him and for Him. God cannot sin and does not tolerate sin and therefore will deal with sin on the last day. That is why He cares if we sin because on the last day He will take every unrepentant sinner and cast him into hell, but as a merciful God, He has given his only Son to pay for sin by the only way sin can be paid for which is by death. John 3:16, "And whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." You take sin lightly because you do not understand the holiness of God and the wretchedness of man. You compare man to man as the standard but you should be comparing man to God as the standard. Man fails miserably. And yes, He does exist. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 I feel like The Gevorgian Seminary in Etchmiadzin has been granted computers and free internet connection from the US Embassy in Yerevan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 THOTH, The Bible says that you are already perishing, but in death will God's wrath culminate to its fullest degree because your sins are still yours. Hmmm, if only it were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Hi Sasun, Onnig, do you realize that such concepts as "God's wrath", "eternal punishment", etc. contradict to the spirit of Jesus's teachings which is more like "God's love", "God's compassion" ? It always strikes me how many people do not see the difference. On the contrary, the Bible records Jesus speaking more of Hell and judgement than He does of God's mercy, and love, because both are just as important. Why would Christ preach salvation if we don't even know what we are being saved from. God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Faith, belief, spritual needs are very different from religion. Church is just another structure like government and it was one of the primary institutions that mutated Christianity to what it is now. I do not get my knowledge about Christianity for one source so that it can be viewed as dogma and I do not view other faiths as inferiour to Christianity. Very well said Armen jan. One of the things that truly bothers me about the followers of mainstream religions today is the sheer level of intolerance they exhibit towards others. If Christ was here today, i'm sure he wouldn't be too happy about this whole 'us' and 'them' game that's being played out in religious circles. Rather I think he'd advocate more love/acceptance and much less fear-mongering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath. I'm sorry - but I want no part of a 'god' like that. What you're saying is a total contradiction of the supposed values of 'good' Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) On the contrary, the Bible records Jesus speaking more of Hell and judgement than He does of God's mercy, and love, because both are just as important. Hmm... I have the opposite view that in the Gospels 90% of the time Jesus speaks about the mercifulness and love of God. I am sure I have not missed anything in the Gospels. It is something else if other books in the Bible speak of different things that actually contradict to Jesus. Why would Christ preach salvation if we don't even know what we are being saved from. God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath. Sorry, but that makes no sense. God is saving from Himself? You think this is Christian, please quote Jesus (not someone else from the Bible or elsewhere) saying this? God is saving us from sins, evil, ignorance, misery, unhappiness, human imperfections, negative qualities such as anger, aggression, lust, greed, jealosey, etc... never from Himself. How can someone love such a God that will arbitrarily punish you or choose to save from such punishment? Do you really think this type of a God is just? I don't think so. That is why many of the Christian dogmas are considered untrue. They are made up by some people other than Jesus. They have little to do with the actual massage of Jesus. Edited August 19, 2004 by Sasun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Vava, 'Good' Christians will give you the full counsel of God, that is, everything that God is, not just his love and mercy and compassion. Once you know all His attributes then you will truly understand the fullness of his love, mercy and compassion. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Sasun, Sorry, but that makes no sense. God is saving from Himself? You think this is Christian, please quote Jesus (not someone else from the Bible or elsewhere) saying this? I have quoted only from the Bible. Here is another quote to answer you, from Paul the Apostle regarding God saving us from Himself, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, one of my favorite: "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." and now from the Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:4-5: "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!" speaking of God the Father. Now Jesus speaks about Himself, Matthew 13:41-42: "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The Son of Man being Jesus. There's a lot more but I think this is enough for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 God is Holy above all things. All things exist through Him, by Him and for Him. God cannot sin and does not tolerate sin and therefore will deal with sin on the last day. I'm sorry but that didn't make any sense. If all things exist through him and he is above all things, then sin must also exist through him. What's this paranioa with what will come after death? Who cares about after death? We will be dead and nothing will matter. Let's focus on what's really important which is LIFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Onnig, that is the idea of hell. Hell is for justice, and justice is not arbitrary, it is a form of protection of the good from bad behavior. If there was no punishment for evil acts it would be unfair, and there would be no lesson to learn. A good God cannot be unfair. Therefore there is hell (one of the reasons). That does not mean that God is protecting us from Himslelf. Do you see my point? It sounds very unfair if you say that. It is like in a family where kids fight the father or mother will make up some form of punishment to teach a lesson to the guilty among children so the well behaving children will not suffer from their hands and will feel protected. But will the parents actually condemn the children to eternal (or lifelong) punishment? No, it is not possible (in most cases at least). Jesus has indicated on many occassions of God's mercy. I primarily refer to the Armenian Bible that's why I can't make quotes, but if necessary I can quote from other Bibles wich are close enough. Do you really want to count the instances where Jesus speaks of punishment vs. mercy and compare? Edited August 19, 2004 by Sasun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Sasun, hell is inherently unfair. There is NO "finite" act that can justify an eternity of punishment. And lets face it, life is finite, and humans have finite abilities. Come on, even hitler doesn't deserve more than a few trillion years of constantly being sodomized and burned. Edited August 19, 2004 by Seapahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Sip, The paranoia is due to the warnings we were given by God. Hell exists, so what can be done to avoid it? What is the escape? God is not the author of sin, man is. Although man came from God, God, being omnipotent, can create a creature that can sin in and of its own, that does not make God the author of sin. In Hebrews 4:15 it says about Christ: "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. " In 1 John 1:5 it says about God the Father: "This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Sasun, hell is inherently unfair. There is NO "finite" act that can justify an eternity of punishment. And lets face it, life is finite, and humans have finite abilities. Come on, even hitler doesn't deserve more than a few trillion years of constantly being sodomized and burned. Sip, eternal hell would be unfair, but a limited time in hell would be fair. I think you agree with this, and as I said above I am not a believer of eternal hell. As to sodomizing and burning, lets not forget that if there is no body then there is no senses and all things that can be done to the body cannot be done in hell, and pain cannot be felt. So whatever bad things happens in hell gotta be different from ordinary pain and suffering. But I suppose burning and sodomizing could be some model for hell experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Onnig, I don't know how clear I was and if you agree with what I said 2 posts back, here is another example. Normal societies have systems of justice - prison terms, elaborate laws, even execution, etc.... a huge legal system. The legal system and a fair implementation are key to fairness in the society. They are meant to protect and support the society as a whole. The legal system will clearly specify crimes and punishments, its a clear warning to everyone. People who will break the laws will be punished and will suffer at the hands of the legal system. Now, there are two ways to look 1) legal system is benevolent, the only goal is to benefit and protect the society. in doing so it may hurt some individuals after warning, all for the benefit of the society 2) legal system is protecting people from itself Which way is a more fair characterization of the legal system and makes more sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 What does a example of a judicial system have to do with the topic ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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