THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Mental power and science are unable to answer where is the end of this world. Until they do, I may well apply other than scientific tools. Is a matter of choice. Buy what right do you think you are entitled to this answer? And how is it that you assume that it is already written and that any knows or can know. I fail to understand why so many people think we should or even that we can know such things - or even think it is desirable to know such things. Instead of making up answers to sooth shallow psyches - don't you not think that the evolved being is one who accepts that perhaps he is not so special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I will not give in. And I believe my approach fully appropriate No it was not Thoth and I would appreciate if you put a closure to this nonsense argument, you came in and made a ugly remark full aware of the fact you are going to get same kind of response from some members, so stop it, this isn’t the first time this kind of nonsense happened, I strongly advice you to stay off the religion related topics since you cant have a civil debate. Enough said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 but those who protheletize continuously on this forum - very much including Sasun - who seems to knwo all of the answers (or thinks he does) - yet is so very quick to edit any critique or arguments that might portray his cult beliefs in a negative light...etc As usual, when logic fails (which usually holds true in your case) you will resort to dishonest means ranging from manipulation of words to outright lies. Posting on religious threads about religious ideas does not constitute proselathyzing, and your other claims are false as well but I will not waste my time expecting honesty from you. Any particular theology is impersonal, a theology saying that there is eternal hell or whatever that might displease you is not intended to insult anyone particular. That theology exists whether or not Onnig speaks aobut it. If you get offended because of a theology it is your own problem and this forum has nothing to do with it. You have no right to attack anyone merely because you claim to be insulted by his theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Again - this is just censorsip pure and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) I just don't see how anyone can possibly claim to know the future. Obviously God himself doesn't know the future otherwise he would already know who is going to go to heaven or hell and this exercise called "life" to sort out the souls would be rather meaningless. Edited August 20, 2004 by Seapahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Sasun I thought you weren't responding to my posts. I would also ask that you not edit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I just don't see how anyone can possibly claim to know the future. Obviously God himself doesn't know the future otherwise he would already know who is going to go to heaven or hell and this exercise called "life" to sort out the souls would be rather meaningless. This is of course part of the paradox.... I had my kids baptised Calvinist BTW...sort of hedging my bets...I mean who is to know really....? (but if you claim you do I will call it b*llshit) And our fantasy football results for this upcomming year will be the test eh? Who is getting the right tips from that supreme being in the know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Threaten me all you want (empty) - most Christian of you - but I will not give in. Hmm... how characteristic, another false claim as if most Christians are after Thoth. Well, you are not that important for Christians or anyone else to threten you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Sasun I thought you weren't responding to my posts. I would also ask that you not edit them. Well, I don't expect anything worthwhile in responding to you, but sometimes I may choose to waste my time. As a moderator, I am obliged to edit anyones posts if that is insulting or otherwise against forum code of conduct. It's not just your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I just don't see how anyone can possibly claim to know the future. Obviously God himself doesn't know the future otherwise he would already know who is going to go to heaven or hell and this exercise called "life" to sort out the souls would be rather meaningless. This is a valid argument, I am sure there will be a dozen different answers, and that would be a normal development of debate. But if someone claims that this is insulting and resorts to insults as a 'self-defense' then something is wrong... I am just making a point Sip, its not about you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 This is a valid argument, I am sure there will be a dozen different answers, and that would be a normal development of debate. But if someone claims that this is insulting and resorts to insults as a 'self-defense' then something is wrong... I am just making a point Sip, its not about you I fail to see where I insulted anyone. Please go to my first post in this thread and folow foreward. I am only responding to the incresingly strident claims that I - as a non-believer (along with innocent newborns) - are condemned to eternal punishment.... Now what would everyone think if I started posting this type of crap - but from the Koran - and telling everyone here that they were condemned and need to convert and believe and practice just as I do etc etc (otherwise they will be justly blown up by suicide bombers or some such...) And you claim I am the one insulting others? Just because I hold a minority view and fight to hold that view in the face of those who make such draconian and sure of themselves claims - does not mean that I am the one in the wrong anf that I am the one who is insulting - you people have a complete lack of respect for those who do not believe as you do and think its OK to foster such on others and to supress any arguments to the contrary. Its no wonder that this forum fosters so many anti-semites and other narrow minded haters and such - these (truly insulting) views basically go unchallenged...yet I cannot challenge clear examples of religeous intolerance without succumbing to personal attacks and claims that it is I - and not those pushing thier know all the answers for everyone religious agenda - who are doing the insulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I fail to see where I insulted anyone. Please go to my first post in this thread and folow foreward. Amazing how you can say that ... in your very first post you called Onnig a sucker, it was later edited out by Ed. Onnig had not addressed you or anyone personally, only stating his theology (which some of us were quite resolvedly but politely and impersonally rejecting until your arrival). To me, this is an insult because of religious views. I wonder how anyone would see it differently (unless it is Thoth ) Need I continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Buy what right do you think you are entitled to this answer? And how is it that you assume that it is already written and that any knows or can know. I fail to understand why so many people think we should or even that we can know such things - or even think it is desirable to know such things. Instead of making up answers to sooth shallow psyches - don't you not think that the evolved being is one who accepts that perhaps he is not so special? First, let me answer why do I chose the tool of spiritual science (in the literature I chose for this subject it is called "spiritual science") to find answers to questions like "where is the end of this world?", "what is the smallest unit of materia"? - these questions cannot be answered with phisical power (self-explanatory) - these questions cannot be answered mentaly because if we find the mental answer to this questions we will be locked in a mental deadlock. This means, as Twilight Bark said somewhere (or along these lines): "if there is only Good (an answer) without Evil (a challenge), that will mean we're mentaly dead because the process of cognition (read: human life) will stop, which cannot happen because you cannot stop a "thought" with materia. You can only stop it with another thought. And because the mental process is limited - thoughts are not enough - a procede to find the other tool - spiritual answer to those initial questions I mentioned Why is it desirable to know such things? Because I don't want my life to end with a report listing the statistics of my phisical and mental activities, like: Report on Armen's life: - Armen had sex (1000 times) - Armen brushed his teath (100.000 times) - Armen ate (300.000 times) - Armen became the president of Armenia (2 times: constitution constraints) etc. etc. It is boring Thoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 To Sasun - Onnig says there are two types of religion one true and one false - I say his is false and say - so where does this leave you sucker! - come now - this is considered a figure of speech - and yes I thought it funny - considering he is making such nasty draconian statements - that he is right and all else who disageree are worng - again - which I ask is more insulting? You just don't get it though....all of you who are so convinced that you know all the answers - then expect us to accept this - when shoved down our throat - no - sorry - will not do.... Armen - well thats fine - if you feel you have some insight and it makes you more comfortable....I find solace in other things - like watching my kids grow up - cuddling with my wife - driving my cars (fast!), drinking fine wine, enjoying life - etc - and while its nice to ponder these eternal questions I am comfortable with the fact that I will never even beging to be able to answer a fraction of all the various (spectacular/puzzling/intriguing/perplexing etc) things I might wonder about....in the meantime there is plenty to learn and wonder about in our world, plenty of fine wine to sample, lots of good times to be had.....etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Thoth, once I asked a question you didn't answer: do you believe your wife is honest with you? Hmmmm, actually, it is his wife who should be asking that question to Thoth. But I don't see the point in any such questions in this thread. Nor do I see a point to the whole thread. Christian Churches from almost year zero have been trying to define exactly what it is to be a Christian, and who is and is not a Christian, and have in most cases come up with a quite specific set of conditions and beliefs that must be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Armen - well thats fine - if you feel you have some insight and it makes you more comfortable....I find solace in other things - like watching my kids grow up - cuddling with my wife - driving my cars (fast!), drinking fine wine, enjoying life - etc - and while its nice to ponder these eternal questions I am comfortable with the fact that I will never even beging to be able to answer a fraction of all the various (spectacular/puzzling/intriguing/perplexing etc) things I might wonder about....in the meantime there is plenty to learn and wonder about in our world, plenty of fine wine to sample, lots of good times to be had.....etc "Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and give unto God the things that are God's". Yes Thoth, I am not comforable with the thought that I'm powerless agaist it. I feel like being in jail. Actually, that's my understanding of freedom and liberty. The mystery of giving a birth is one and only spiritual purification (freedom, liberty) humans have, outside the road of spiritual cognition. And you were very right to mention that. However, in present times, women are the ones who suffer more from giving birth and the whole process of being a mother. You cannot match their suffering in that and you should not (why? I will write about this later). Men should find the freedom in something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 so where does this leave you sucker! - come now - this is considered a figure of speech - and yes I thought it funny ... I am sure you would object if someone dared to call you a sucker. that he is right and all else who disageree are worng - again - which I ask is more insulting? You just don't get it though....all of you who are so convinced that you know all the answers - then expect us to accept this - It is funny how you think that when one is sure about a certain religious idea it is wrong and somewhat insulting. Well, all religious ideas maybe unpleasant for some people. So what, are they insulting? I don't think so. when shoved down our throat - no - sorry - will not do.... Did anyone knock at your door and started preaching? I don't think so. This is a religious thread, and people are exactly expected to talk about religious ideas, among them their religious convictions. You and (less frequently) Arpa are the only ones that for whatever reason get insulted or agitated and come down with harsh words or outright insults. So what if I am sure about my convictions, do I have to be be attacked for that? Well, I am not at all sure that any of what I said has any use but I will make sure to the best of my ability that people don't get insulted for whatever opinions they hold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hmmmm, actually, it is his wife who should be asking that question to Thoth. But I don't see the point in any such questions in this thread. Nor do I see a point to the whole thread. Christian Churches from almost year zero have been trying to define exactly what it is to be a Christian, and who is and is not a Christian, and have in most cases come up with a quite specific set of conditions and beliefs that must be followed. Bellthecat, that question lost its relevance as the thread went on. Who said that Church had the right to define what is a Christian? I believe only those who set the example and suffered for that. E.g. Narekatsi in Armenian Christian tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 THOTH if you don't believe in Christianity why partake in the thread ? I believe only those who set the example and suffered for that. E.g. Narekatsi in Armenian Christian tradition. Armen please elaborate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Armen please elaborate Ludwig, I have to ran now. I'll write later. I have a question for you as well. What is the position of Armenian Apostholic Church on Grigor Narekatsi? I don't have this information. Please, provide if you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) Bellthecat, that question lost its relevance as the thread went on. Its more like the thread lost its relevance as the postings went on. Who said that Church had the right to define what is a Christian? The Church says that it has the right, and the sole right. By "Church" I mean an organised community of believers who have sat down and given some deep thought about what they actually believe and why. I believe only those who set the example and suffered for that. E.g. Narekatsi in Armenian Christian tradition. Follow that thinking and actually you are no better than our own self-proclaimed little god Thoth. You leave the door open to every fanatic, charlatan, or weirdo to invent his own religion or parasitically leech off a pre-existing one. Edited August 20, 2004 by bellthecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 and everyone who points out people and call them satanist or non belivers and therefore not worthy ,and who boast about their religious nature... should not so rightfully call themselves christians...as they are the worst chrisitans usually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Onnig, you probably are a bit disappointed with how this discussion about Christianity has shifted to other arguments, but nevertheless I’d like to continue this topic about Christianity. Probably because of my earlier comments you already know that I’m an atheist, but still I like talking about religion and learning as much as possible about religion and what makes people religious. You wrote: It is fair punishment to send someone to hell forever for sinning. You have to remember that sin is against God who is holy and eternal meaning no begining and no end. Therefore punishment is eternal. There must be punishment for sin and since God is eternal then punishment is eternal. I’ve been thinking about this and would like to ask some questions. Let’s say if heaven and hell are real and there is a fair God who judges everyone accordingly by their actions. As Sip pointed it out maybe since life on earth is finite it would be unfair for someone to receive eternal punishment in hell for something that he’s done during a finite life. Maybe after death, if there is an eternal life and we finally find out what that is, then we really start to be judged by our actions and hell is reserved as a punishment for the crimes that we’ve committed after death. Otherwise, since we don’t really know what life after death could be like and we can’t really conceive the idea of eternity it’d be wrong for God to send people to hell for crimes that they’ve committed on a finite earth. I believe that for crimes committed on earth one gets earthly punishment. Any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Not to take anything away from other comments on this thread, but if someone doesn't believe in God, then why should a person judge the beliefs of anothers faith.The topic is about who is a Christian, not what is a Christian, by basically stating that by asking who is a Chirstian and what validates being a Christian a person must accept the Christian prespective. Christians have a set rule of faith, again this thread is not about questioning the set rules, the thread is intended for my understanding to who is a Christian. I am not trying to be mean, but if we want to discuss what is a morale law, different religions, personal relationalship, this forum provides a multitude of different threads. Again, I am not trying to be mean or condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) A christian is he who believe that Jesus resurected. Edited August 22, 2004 by Fadix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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