Anoushik Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Not to take anything away from other comments on this thread, but if someone doesn't believe in God, then why should a person judge the beliefs of anothers faith.The topic is about who is a Christian, not what is a Christian, by basically stating that by asking who is a Chirstian and what validates being a Christian a person must accept the Christian prespective. Christians have a set rule of faith, again this thread is not about questioning the set rules, the thread is intended for my understanding to who is a Christian. I am not trying to be mean, but if we want to discuss what is a morale law, different religions, personal relationalship, this forum provides a multitude of different threads. Again, I am not trying to be mean or condescending. Why shouldn't a person discuss religion even if one doesn't belong to one? Notice, I'm not saying to judge but to discuss. Even if I'm not religious and I don't have to associate myself with any religion we all know that religion affects every one of us whether we are religious or not. Because religion takes such a big part in today's society (and historically has always done so) every member of that society should be able to discuss religion. In this case the discussion is about Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) Its more like the thread lost its relevance as the postings went on. Bellthecat, if you continue making ungrounded statements you will lose your relevace as well The Church says that it has the right, and the sole right. By "Church" I mean an organised community of believers who have sat down and given some deep thought about what they actually believe and why. Who cares what the Church says? There is not order in Bible saying that a Church should be established. Well, thinking THAT deep they got into very deep trouble. Follow that thinking and actually you are no better than our own self-proclaimed little god Thoth. You leave the door open to every fanatic, charlatan, or weirdo to invent his own religion or parasitically leech off a pre-existing one. I'm just exchanging views Bell if you didn't notice. People nowadys go after fanatics, charlatans and weirdos by their own political choice through democratic elections. People go after fanatics like Bush, charlatans like Kerry and weirdos like gay priests. It surely couldn't get worse. Edited August 23, 2004 by ArmenSarg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Hi Anoushik, (I am calling anoushik because that's your name ) I’ve been thinking about this and would like to ask some questions. Let’s say if heaven and hell are real and there is a fair God who judges everyone accordingly by their actions. As Sip pointed it out maybe since life on earth is finite it would be unfair for someone to receive eternal punishment in hell for something that he’s done during a finite life. Maybe after death, if there is an eternal life and we finally find out what that is, then we really start to be judged by our actions and hell is reserved as a punishment for the crimes that we’ve committed after death. Otherwise, since we don’t really know what life after death could be like and we can’t really conceive the idea of eternity it’d be wrong for God to send people to hell for crimes that they’ve committed on a finite earth. I believe that for crimes committed on earth one gets earthly punishment. Any comments? The first misconception is that life is finite. For humans, life IS everlasting, and has always been this way since Adam and Eve. Physical death does not equate with spiritual death. When you say life, you must refer to the soul, the soul lives forever, therefore life is forever. Sin then entered into the world, and with it death. Now that life is everlasting, what does death accomplish since the soul cannot be destroyed? Well, death removes the soul from this world and puts the soul in the world fitted for everlasting punishment. So when one sins, they do not sin in a temporary dimension, they sin in a everlasting dimension because their everlasting soul sins against an eternal God. The crime does fit the punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 It is interesting how Christian dogma loves to battle with materialist athesim. Church fishes out athesim from miriad of other human spiritual situations and starts nailing it with equaly empty ungrounded rethorical axiomas. You know why? Because they love each other, they can't live without each other, they feed each other, nurture each other. Basically, they're the same thing. Doesn't the "same thing" love itself? I say more than anything else. The greatest athesit in this world is the Pope himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Yes of course ArmenSarg - only you know all the answers - only you know how things are - how one must worship and what not - yeah - talk of being the same - fanatical believers - in whatever....all I'm saying is that there is not sufficient proof for belief in any gods - and those what are postulated are at best unbelievable - and are as well - in my mind undesireble. But you know better...yes of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Hi Anoushik, (I am calling anoushik because that's your name ) The first misconception is that life is finite. For humans, life IS everlasting, and has always been this way since Adam and Eve. Physical death does not equate with spiritual death. When you say life, you must refer to the soul, the soul lives forever, therefore life is forever. Sin then entered into the world, and with it death. Now that life is everlasting, what does death accomplish since the soul cannot be destroyed? Well, death removes the soul from this world and puts the soul in the world fitted for everlasting punishment. So when one sins, they do not sin in a temporary dimension, they sin in a everlasting dimension because their everlasting soul sins against an eternal God. The crime does fit the punishment. Onnig Nice post, there is a certain purity there. What you are claiming can be true since the opposite cannot be proven either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Not to take anything away from other comments on this thread, but if someone doesn't believe in God, then why should a person judge the beliefs of anothers faith. Very true.You can't judge Zen without meditating or Christianity without following Christ's percepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Thoth, how could God be desirable? It is not a humburger. For me my beliefe is desirable. Thoth, you went the same road of asking for a material proof. Couple of posts earlier you said you're content with your life. Meaning, you don't need a spiritual cognition. I can't show you a hammer and say that is God. I also can't make an equasion, solve it and proof that there is God. If you don't want third way, the spiritual cognition, that's your problem. If you keep your rethoric because you don't like me - and this is the impression I get - I couldn't care less. Yes I know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) Hi Armat, There is nothing purer than the truth. Edited August 23, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I view Christianity strictly as a cultural phenomenon, at least at present and I know who is NOT Christian. Jews are not, Moslems are not and Anglo-Saxon barbarians are NOT Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) what were we talking about again? (scratching his head while looking puzzled) Edited August 23, 2004 by Ludwig9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 To answer the question of the thread again, in a little different way, every person is his own judge as to how validate his Christianity. It is between him and Christ, nobody else, unless the person will seek somebody elses advise. Also there cannot be a constant set rule even for one person. Today I may think I am a good Christian for this and that reason, tomorrow I may think that I am a bad Christian for other reasons, and I will strive to be better. It is an ongoing process, one cannot be a good ("valid") Christian at once, although one may believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 So when one sins, they do not sin in a temporary dimension, they sin in a everlasting dimension because their everlasting soul sins against an eternal God. The crime does fit the punishment. But this life is physical and when we "sin" our sins are physical. Hi Anoushik, (I am calling anoushik because that's your name ) No need to explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Who cares what the Church says? There is not order in Bible saying that a Church should be established. Well, thinking THAT deep they got into very deep trouble. I'm just exchanging views Bell if you didn't notice. People nowadys go after fanatics, charlatans and weirdos by their own political choice through democratic elections. People go after fanatics like Bush, charlatans like Kerry and weirdos like gay priests. It surely couldn't get worse. Sounds like the voice of someone who has no understanding of what he says he believes in, and no desire to get any understanding, and no understanding of why it is important to get it, and who justifies that inability to understand by just saying "I believe what I believe". It is little wonder that your religion is on its last legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Who cares what the Church says? There is not order in Bible saying that a Church should be established. Well, thinking THAT deep they got into very deep trouble. This is the apostle Paul writing to one of his pupils Timothy. 1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 This is the apostle Paul writing to one of his pupils Timothy. 1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Ludwig, do you think apostles of Jesus were as good and as all knowing as Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Ludwig, do you think apostles of Jesus were as good and as all knowing as Jesus? Jesus Christ = God the Son, who is all knowing, and is inseparable entity of the trinity. Therefore, the apostles cannot be all knowing because they are not God. But, Christ being their teacher has taught them Gods infallible teachings. I also don’t understand the first part of your question , that the apostles were as good as Jesus. The apostles did exactly what Christ expected them to do. Some, were crucified, some lived to a ripe old age. So, by doing Gods will they have accomplished what is good. Does this answer your question ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 In that verse you have to define church, that's where there is a great separation between protestants and orthodox/catholic, but that's not this thread so let's not go there. Domino answered correctly on the previous page about those who are Christian, who believe that Christ is resurrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Jesus Christ = God the Son, who is all knowing, and is inseparable entity of the trinity. Therefore, the apostles cannot be all knowing because they are not God. But, Christ being their teacher has taught them Gods infallible teachings. But did the apostles perfectly learn all that Jesus taught them? Can we take apostles words as absolute truth? I also don’t understand the first part of your question , that the apostles were as good as Jesus. The apostles did exactly what Christ expected them to do. Some, were crucified, some lived to a ripe old age. So, by doing Gods will they have accomplished what is good. Does this answer your question ? What I want to know is if you think apostle's words are good enough to follow compared to Jesus's words. I don't think that apostles were nearly as perfect as Jesus, and that they had understood and taught Christ's messages correctly at all times. No doubt, they have done their best, to the best of their knowledge (with the exception of traitor Judas). Peter denied Jesus out of fear, surely it is not a sign of perfection, but he did repent after that and his service to the humanity is undeniable. Given the record that he made a mistake, it maybe that he also didn't teach the truth exactly the way Jesus had wished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Domino answered correctly on the previous page about those who are Christian, who believe that Christ is resurrected. So is that all one needs to do to be a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Domino answered correctly on the previous page about those who are Christian, who believe that Christ is resurrected. Onnig please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Sasun/Ludwig, That is not the only thing a person must believe but it is a critical point. Here is Paul the Apostle explaining it: 1 Cor 15:13-22: But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. So a "Christian" does not believe in the resurrection then he is still in his sins, and his faith is in vain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 So a "Christian" does not believe in the resurrection then he is still in his sins, and his faith is in vain. Technically you are correct. However, to believe in resurrection is a small thing compared to the whole magnitude of Jesus Christ. There are far more important things than merely to believe in a miracle. As I said before, there have been many miracles performed by more less ordinary people. A miracle means very little, one cannot be called God only becuase he can do a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Technically you are correct. However, to believe in resurrection is a small thing compared to the whole magnitude of Jesus Christ. There are far more important things than merely to believe in a miracle. As I said before, there have been many miracles performed by more less ordinary people. A miracle means very little, one cannot be called God only becuase he can do a miracle. Ok, we are not discussing the nature of Christ here. We are not talking about talking about what other people have done. If you don’t believe Christ as God the Son then, that is your decision. Again, the Resurrection is not just a miracle and a “small thing”. If there is to be an understanding of the magnitude of Jesus Christ, then anything which is not from Christ is false, even if it is “miracles”. Please read again, Onnigs third post regarding Matthew 7:15-20. But did the apostles perfectly learn all that Jesus taught them? Yes. Can we take apostles words as absolute truth? Yes, there writings and teachings were not authored by man but by God through the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Sasun, to believe in resurrection is a small thing compared to the whole magnitude of Jesus Christ. It is NOT a small thing to believe in the resurrection, it is critical to one's faith as I explained earlier. And to the second part: compared to the whole magnitude of Jesus Christ. I don't know what you are talking about here but then you lessen the importance of miracles. Other false gods may have claimed to perform miracles but they are either self-proclaimed or just trickery. Christ's miracles were witnessed, confirmed and acknowledged by thousands. The Jews even went on to say that His miracles, which they did not deny but confirmed in saying so, were of the Devil. Of course they were not: Matt 12:24: "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." but Christ plainly answers, Matt 12:27: "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. " Here is what Christ says about actual false miracle workers, Matt 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Sasun, that is who you have believed, the false Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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