onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Sasun, You are doing the same thing TOTH is doing, you are using earthly things to talk about heavenly things, like comparing man to man. It is fair punishment to send someone to hell forever for sinning. You have to remember that sin is against God who is holy and eternal meaning no begining and no end. Therefore punishment is eternal. There must be punishment for sin and since God is eternal then punishment is eternal. Are you claiming to be wiser than God? Or are you claiming to be more just and merciful than God? Since all of God's attributes are perfect, including His attributes of justice and mercy, God must see to it that sin is punished or He won't be just, but because of His mercy, He gave His Son to die for sinners so that sinners my live for eternity in His presence and not in hell. God is either just or is merciful, He is never unjust. Men think too highly of themselves, making that blasphemous claim. Edited August 19, 2004 by onnig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Of course we all are imperfect. But when someone imperfect comes forward and starts condemning you to eternal hell and fires, or starts a war against another religion, that's what is wrong. Exactly, and this same applies to God. God (or whatever higher being there may be) is not perfect, otherwise, we, being his creations, would be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Yes Sasun, the only way the explain the horrible characterization of a newborn as "sinful" would be along those lines. But ... Imperfection is the basis of life, and more importantly, of self-awareness. Perfect things are by necessity dead or self-unaware. This will be my only post in this thread as I have no interest or time to sink in a "born-again" sort of discussion. Sounds like one of my thread or posts of over a year ago. If we were to be perfect, there could be only one kind of perfection... If I were to be perfect, and you were to be perfect... you and me would be identical... if everyone was to be perfect, identity won't exist, and the interaction between the observer and the observed would be disturbed, because we would self-observe ourself, since everyone will be the same... in those conditions no identity could emerge. Perfection would exclude any form of language, language having a major role in the emergence of consciousness. I don't know if your reason of writing that was the same as mine(the one I present here), in part or in full... that would make me agree with you 100% for the first time. Might that be an insult for you? Depend on how well you take the fact that you agree with a dadaist... you could as well take the fact that I might agree with you simply as a statistical probability or chances... hhhh... what a boring thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 He gave His Son to die for sinners so that sinners my live for eternity in His presence and not in hell. It just occured to me that Jesus' sacrifice shouldn't be a big deal since He'll still live in eternity I don't know why I didn't realize this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Onnig/Ludwig, I want to see some logic but you fail to give any. Jesus gave tons of earthly parables to explain heavenly things. Am I not allowed to make earthly comparisons? Please think and then answer. If God is protecting us from himself then it is not God at all. If you think that way and you have faith in God then yours is a blind faith I am afraid. And if God created me and then condemns me to eternal hell then he is not a father to me at all. Even ordinary, bad fathers will not condemn their worst children to some eternal punishment. If you are going to accuse me that I am using earthly examples, again I should point you to Jesus using exactly the example of earthly father to introduce an understanding of the Heavenly Father. Again, please think before you answer. Rotating a standard line from here and there will not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Exactly, and this same applies to God. God (or whatever higher being there may be) is not perfect, otherwise, we, being his creations, would be perfect. Anoushik, we are perfect in the long run, so both we and God are perfect. The reason we are temporarily imperfect is because the creation process has not ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 I believe I was thinking when I answered, I suppose you didn't read my reply. It was concise and to the point. Please read it. You're right when you say that Christ used earthly parables when speaking of heavenly things but that is not what you are doing. You are comparing an earthly form of justice, which is temporal. When man sins against man, justice is due and paid accordingly. Again, God is eternal, I don't know how much simpler I can say it, punishment therefore becomes eternal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 It just occured to me that Jesus' sacrifice shouldn't be a big deal since He'll still live in eternity I don't know why I didn't realize this before. Yes, you are right. Jesus' sacrifice of his bodily life was a really small thing for his magnitude. There have been many heros that have given up their lives for their countries, are they the same as Jesus? I don't think so. In that case, what is so special in Jesus one might ask? Well, the teachings and the life example of Jesus are special. If you closely examine his teachings (as much as it has reached us), his life and death, his unhesitated willingness to sacrifice everything that he had in this life for the sake of God and humanity's spiritual development, then you will see the greatness of Jesus Christ. There are words that Jesus has said that in all bravity are simply majestic in beauty. Or his forgiving attitude - people were killing him and he was blessing his killers. Who is ever capable of such love and spritual greatness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 You are comparing an earthly form of justice, which is temporal. When man sins against man, justice is due and paid accordingly. Again, God is eternal, I don't know how much simpler I can say it, punishment therefore becomes eternal. Oh well, you are saying that since we sin against God and God is eternal then we should receive eternal punishment. But that is not very logical or fair. It seems like punishment should be equivalent to the magnitude of crime, not the attributes of the one who suffered from sin/crime. Actually, God being perfect, immortal and infinite, cannot suffer from any of our sins, big or small. It seems a very unfair punishment to condemn to eternal hell for all types of sins. Besides, where do you draw the line? Some sins are punished for eternity, and some sins are forgiven for eternity? I would like to know the line, but wherever that line is seems extremely unfair to me to have such a big (infinitely big!) gap between measures of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Are you claiming to be wiser than God? Or are you claiming to be more just and merciful than God? Why not? You just said man is the author of sin. God created man and man did something that god doesn't do. So is it really that hard to extend this and realize that maybe god created Sasun and Sasun is in turn wiser and juster than God? By the way, Sasun, sorry for misunderstanding your position on Hell. After your post, I see that we are in perfect agreement on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Yes of course, Sasun. I didn't mean that Jesus is not great. I just meant to say that His sacrifice is not enough to try to make people religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Sasun, sorry for misunderstanding your position on Hell. I will not forgive you. According to my estimates I will live about 82.5 years, therefore you will receive a sentence of 82.5 years of time in jail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) To understand the real essence of the impulse of Christ it is necessary to understand the idea of Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; Human Body, Human Emotions and Human Spirit; Phisical World, Astral World and Spiritual World; Phisical Instincts, Astral Life and Spiritual Cognition; Economy, Politics and Culture; Fraternity, Equalty and Liberty (actually the slogan of French revolution) These patterns of three essences are unified in the: "The beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" If this crucial idea is not understood form the first steps of your spitirual effort the whole cognition of Chist's impulse is going in wrong direction. Humans, which had only instinctive life before the New Testament were given the New Testament to be able to split their phisical and emotional world. Now we can clearly make a difference between our phisical and emotional needs. However, at this point we do not have the ability to naturaly separate and catch our spiritual essence. This is where humankind is now. The inability to mentaly comprehend our subtle spiritual needs frustrates us to a level of self-estrangement. There is no need in efforts to verbaly explain what is Christianity and what are its so-called pros and cons if you do not mentaly and by your own will and consciousness seperate and comprehend your spiritual essence and view it independently from you phisical and emotional world. It is interesting to see Old Testament dogmas applied to humans that underwent 3000 years of development since then. The whole idea of this application is one of the greatest evils of our times. Edited August 20, 2004 by ArmenSarg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) Most of the rejections of the impulse if Christ come from the fact that at present days we, and mostly the female part of humans think that while taking that road we must reject the happiness of complete sexual satisfaction. While this was true for the times of Old Testament, the ultimate hate (a Luciferic evil) projects these processes to present days to decelerate human development. The evils of our times are much more subtle and deadly for humankind. In no way this is going to be a devil with horns. Just look around and you'll see everyone in struggle with The System (an Arimanic evil). As we go forward in our development the sins of the dusk of the humankind lose their relevance to us as well as to the evil itself and it invents the new ones. Edited August 20, 2004 by ArmenSarg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I never ceased to be amazed how much time, energy, thought and what have you people waste on complete and utter uselessness...like postulating and arguing about the attrubutes and likes and dislikes (and demands) of immaginary beings and thinking that our pitifully narrow concepts (god)have any bearing on anything that is reality - no chance - and this just seems so obvious to me - ..don't know...even supposing we can at all even begin to much understand the universe/multiverses around us....at least lets use some tools (scientific observation and application) instead of relying on myth ad fary tale... primatives...what can I say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 To understand the real essence of the impulse of Christ it is necessary to understand the idea of Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; Human Body, Human Emotions and Human Spirit; Phisical World, Astral World and Spiritual World; Phisical Instincts, Astral Life and Spiritual Cognition; Economy, Politics and Culture; Fraternity, Equalty and Liberty (actually the slogan of French revolution) These patterns of three essences are unified in the: "The beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" hm, maybe onto something here... ...sex, drugs and rock and roll! OK - I can dig it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 universe/multiverses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Thoth, once I asked a question you didn't answer: do you believe your wife is honest with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) Thoth, once I asked a question you didn't answer: do you believe your wife is honest with you? I am confident of perfect honesty in our marriage (you are so without a clue here my friend...lol) - but WTF business is it of yours... Edited August 20, 2004 by THOTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I am confident of perfect honesty in our marriage (you are so without a clue here my friend...lol) - but WTF business is it of yours... Why should I be with a clue? What is has to do with this? Well, that's a perfect example of wishfull thinking and a fairy tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 This thread is out of control, way off the question I asked. This thread should have been limited to those who believe they are Christians, not those who have embraced other religions. Too bad, no rules in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Why should I be with a clue? What is has to do with this? Well, that's a perfect example of wishfull thinking and a fairy tale. It is you who are presuming things that are totally unknown (to you)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 This thread is out of control, way off the question I asked. This thread should have been limited to those who believe they are Christians, not those who have embraced other religions. Too bad, no rules in this forum. Where did you read that this was a Christian only forum. Yeah you can go to hell too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 This thread is out of control, way off the question I asked. This thread should have been limited to those who believe they are Christians, not those who have embraced other religions. Too bad, no rules in this forum. One quesation if I may. Who assigned you/us as champions of Christianity? Are you the Pope? Am I? "Limited to those who believe"? Believe in what? I am a firm believer of Santa Claus and UFO's. Speaking of UFO's. Have you read the book of Revelations? Warning! One must be overdosed with LSD and other hallocinogens to fully understand that book of hallocinotary fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 It is you who are presuming things that are totally unknown (to you)... Thoth, you sound like an inocent kid who is totaly unaware of the cruel reality that surrounds us. All those fairy tales about her honersty are nothing but a wishful thinking of your idealist naiive brain. How can a healthy woman have only one partner, Thoth? Come on, be more real, open your eyes and see the real world. She needs diversity, fun...Having the husband as the only partner is SO BORING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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