CURIOUS QUISTION

[Varduhi]

THOTH

 

well since your Armenian then why are you getting affendent when Qristine is trying to defend her own nationality which is the same as yours, one thing i dont understand (which nationality makes you happy if it is not your own) i mean it doesnt seem like you like your own nationality did something happened that made you dislike your own Nation and its people. Some people like their country more then others in this case it happenes to be Qristine, who is willing to do everything for her own people and nation,( at least that what i think) but it does not mean that we have to attack her because she is like that in fact i respect people like Qristine more then some people in this forum. At least she is honest and is not affraid to express her true feelings toward her own country.

 

Everyone why cant you get along with eachother why do you have to attack eachother that you dont like or dont have same piont of view.

 

take care and NO ARGUEING if you have different point of view then you can politly explain and maybe those who dont agree may end up agreeing. We all have different opinions and we all have to respect that ( at least i do)

so try to be more understanding of eachother.

 

Bye.........

[Guest Fadi]

Varduhi, being Armenian, has two meaning, nationality and ethnicity. Thoth may be ethnically Armenian, it does not mean his nationality is Armenian. Only the Armenians that are born in Armenia, their nationality is Armenian.

 

Neither, Thoth, me, Sip, or the very large majority of the participants of this forum are Armenian by nationality, we are Armenian by orgine or ethnically, but not by nationality, nationality is about your nation, where you are born.

 

Are you born in Armenian, Varduhi ?

 

[ November 27, 2002, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Outdoorgirl]

hyebruin : I never felt stronger as an armenian now that I live away from armenians...

----------------------------------------------

 

Hi girl:) don't wanna offend you but I think our worst cultural trait is that we become patriots when we are far away of our native land.

 

[ November 28, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Outdoorgirl ]

[hyebruin]

Let me clarify what I was saying: 1st) I've never lived in nor visited the homeland, 2nd) what I meant by 'never felt stronger' is that like most armenians (I would imagine!) when you live where there are absolutely no armenians around you (including family) you have these doubts as to whether you are strong enough to stay armenian or is it going to be really easy to forget your ethnicity...would you even care to stay armenian?...that's my point...and I believe the only way one can truely know if the desire to stay armenian comes from within is if you experience living away from all that is or is related to armenians...I didn't choose to learn this lesson, ironically! life turned out that way and I learned something about myself that reaffirms what I had known all along!...and while I was there among armenians I learned a lot about armenian language and literature while an undergrad at ucla...which was a gift to me...because I knew I would probably not get another chance to learn about my culture through formal education

[Outdoorgirl]

I think we’ve got different viewpoints here.

Hyebruin: “When you live where there are absolutely no Armenians around you (including family) you have these doubts as to whether you are strong enough to stay Armenian or is it going to be really easy to forget your ethnicity...would you even care to stay Armenian?”

One cannot choose his/her own ethnicity. If you were born Armenian whatever you do you’re going to stay Armenian. Maybe you associate being Armenian with being Christian. Having foreign friends, dating foreign guys, adopting foreign traditions, speaking foreign language or things like that won’t make you non-Armenian. I am glad that you got the chance to fulfill the desire to learn more about your culture and the language of origin.

It’s nice to see Armenians abroad who know where they come from.

[Outdoorgirl]

I think we’ve got different viewpoints here.

Hyebruin: “When you live where there are absolutely no Armenians around you (including family) you have these doubts as to whether you are strong enough to stay Armenian or is it going to be really easy to forget your ethnicity...would you even care to stay Armenian?”

One cannot choose his/her own ethnicity. If you were born Armenian whatever you do you’re going to stay Armenian. Maybe you associate being Armenian with being Christian. Having foreign friends, dating foreign guys, adopting foreign traditions, speaking foreign language or things like that won’t make you non-Armenian. I am glad that you got the chance to fulfill the desire to learn more about your culture and the language of origin. It’s nice to see Armenians abroad who know where they come from.

[hyebruin]

Originally posted by Outdoorgirl:

 

I think we agree on pretty much the same things with little variations I do have some really good non-armenian friends...even more now since I live in the "real diaspora!"...what I've come to realize is being armenian is, believe it or not, not so much being born to armenian parents...but being born with the armenian spirit.. this is something I never discuss with 'odars' 'cause they just won't understand and most likely think it's a 'superiority complex' which it is NOT!~~~ You don't realize the power and the impact of having been brought up with armenian values and armenian schooling especially in those earlier years until you come to a point where you realize that regardless of who is or is not around you...Hayastan lives within you even if you have not seen it with physical eyes... it's like the saying: "ahmen mee hye mek hayastan."~~~ I also realize now more than ever that since I am well grounded in my beliefs and my cultural/ethnic identity...that I am not intimidated of the richness or the beauty of other cultures...rather, I welcome things new that I want to learn more about...after all we're all human before we are...whatever we are!

[Loreley]

Hi. I believe that people should marry the person they love and it does Not matter what is their ethnic background. Although it is important to keep our culture alive, it is also vital to see each other as primarily individuals. Race is a socially cronstructed category and it does Not define who we are (it only influences it). I want to marry a good person and I don't care about his race or ethnicity. I don't think that if I marry a non-Armenian person, I will less of an Armenian or the other way around.

[hyebruin]

Originally posted by Loreley:

[QB]Hi. I believe that people should marry the person they love and it does Not matter what is their ethnic background.

 

This is true, but what is also true is knowing, wanting, and deciding what kind of a person is it that you want to marry. Thus, you will choose your dates according to what you really want...'cause of course you can love anyone! We're all human, after all!!

If you look around across all culturall groups...people stick to their own kind!... I also know some very strong and patirotic armenians who've married outside. Honestly, I don't think a good majority of the armenians nowadays can truely hang on to their ethnic identity if they did marry an outsider (I'm not necessarily talking about you, I do not know you! )~~~ I believe the 'requisites' if I may call it that are: 1st) having a strong sense of who you are, and 2nd) being strong enough to embrace another's culture without losing parts of your own...I 've seen people do this, and more power to them...I personally would not want to,not because I am not strong enough, but because I do not know if my children will be strong enough...I've also seen people deal with "identity issues" because they are a little of everything...and cannot relate to any particular nation they belong to...(and this is very alive among the white folks!)...I don't want my kids to have to struggle with that...life is full of struggles as it is! I was sharing these thoughts with someone not too long ago and he was a little too radical/crazy!! and he was saying "no, you should love everyone...even a turk!"...now, that is being totally blind!!! I think we all have the right when it comes to our personal lives...but marrying a turk? (he was not armenian as you can imagine!)...i was like" dude, you don't know me..and one more word and I won't speak with you again! ) ~~~I think it's funny when I meet people like that in life...My philosophy is: I have my beliefs and would not want to impose them unto you...nor do I care to change other people's minds...and it makes me wonder why some people are so adamant about changing other people's point of view

[QRISTINE]

Hi Lorely

Welcome to Armenian forum

 

 

I believe that people should marry the person they love and it does Not matter what is their ethnic background. Although it is important to keep our culture alive, it is also vital to see each other as primarily individuals. Race is a socially cronstructed category and it does Not define who we are (it only influences it). I want to marry a good person and I don't care about his race or ethnicity. I don't think that if I marry a non-Armenian person, I will less of an Armenian or the other way around.

 

As you mentioned that it is important to keep our culture alive how you are going to keep your culture alive if you are married to a Turk? how you ever thought about it? Ok lets put it this way if the guy you love is a Turk are you still not going to consider his background or race?

[EZ]

I want to applaud for what Loreley wrote.

 

Qristine, the answer of your question is already given in Loreley's posting.

[QRISTINE]

Barev Seaphan

 

Inds es xosatsnum nuin turkere chein vor kotoretsin 1 u kes million haiutiian ev minchev ors el chen uzum chanachel irents kataratse TESEXASPANUTIONE de vor aidkanits heto du drants mard es hamarum el xosk chunem aselu kez. DROITS " ES VOCH MI JOXOVRDI HANDEP ATELUTION CHUNEM, BAITS VAY AIN AZGIN, VOR KHAMARDSAKVI VATUTUION ANEL HAI JOXOVURDIN, NA LINI TURK, RUS KAM AIL AZGI, ES ZENK PITI VERTSNEM NRA DEM.

[QRISTINE]

When I say ‘I want to marry an Armenian,’ what I really mean is that I want to perpetuate a vision that I believe God has placed in this world, our ancestors have defended it and I believe in its value. I want to marry an Armenian in order to maintain a God created vision and a way of life established by my ancestors. I want to be part of a vision in life, a member of a community that has lasted for millennia. This is what marrying an Armenian means to me. By marrying an Armenian I am not running away from something, but instead remaining part of a vision that not only spans throughout the world, but also spans over thousands of years. There maybe some people who will misinterpret what I say as ‘chauvinistic.’ That is not my intent and I will not be apologetic to those people. There may also be others, likely Armenians, who will try to twist my words and say that you should marry an Armenian because ‘Armenians are better than others.’ I do not believe that either and I certainly do not support those views. So, if there are people in those two groups who will read and misinterpret what I have to say here, I really cannot help them.

For me, I must say that my Christian faith and cultural identity are intertwined. The two go hand in hand! I really think we are very unique among Christian people because of that. I cannot see being Christian in any other community. It is not to say that Armenians are better or worse than others. Since I have learned this sense of spirituality – the interweaving of the abstract faith and the concrete culture in which that faith takes shape, I cannot imagine any other way for me to practice my Christianity.

Actually our work today is easy. Our grandparents who were massacred in the 1915 Genocide had the tougher job. They are the ones who had to face the ultimatum. We don’t. Now the least we can do is keep our name and maintain our faith and heritage.

There are many non-Armenians who still wonder if there is a country called ‘Armenia’ or a people who are called ‘Armenians.’ They have read about us in history books and they wonder. It may sound ridiculous but it is real! It is our responsibility to be both proud of this heritage and inform others about the brave and faithful people whose descendents we are. When non-Armenians hear about how we have survived, they do not say something like: “What’s the big deal about surviving thousands of years?!” Believe it or not, the people who most generally make this statement are other Armenians. But generally non-Armenians are awed and many are happy for us. So why should I ignore something that is so inspirational to so many?

I don’t believe that what I am saying here is true of all Armenians. There are some for whom the Armenian heritage does not make a difference. Fine. That is how God has created them. For me though, there is a piece of my life, a major portion that is simply rooted in the Armenian faith and heritage. I know it!

Actually, I would encourage marrying someone of own cultural background to all people who have a cultural heritage and an affinity to maintain it. It is not just for Armenians but for people who have a sense of history – be that a three thousand year history or a three hundred year one. I think this is most true in the United States where a homogenous culture does not exist. As a result, if you don’t belong to an Armenian, Greek, German, Irish or another ethnic community, with whom will you associate? The people at work? Once in a while mix with the neighbors at a block-barbeque? Just where are you going to go with your family to share some in depth thoughts and feelings about life, history, the arts, humanity, and religion? That is why I just cannot see myself marrying someone other than an Armenian.

To say that I did not try to go out with non-Armenians would be a lie. I tried. But it just wasn’t true to me! I could not see myself living in such a relationship the rest of my life. Sure, I could love that one person. But what community would I live in and associate with? Maybe it is just me, but I want to be part of the total humanity and history, and not just my family and neighborhood. Marrying an Armenian, I believe will give me the depth and breadth to continue maintaining that overall perspective of life.

This ‘depth and breadth’ in life I believe will also manifest in the daily situations. If my partner is an Armenian, it will be much easier to communicate with each other. It does not matter if I am born in the U.S. or overseas. If I have an Armenian heritage and am close to the Armenian community, there are many aspects about me that only another Armenian can easily understand. Can a non-Armenian eventually understand me? Of course! If there is enough love and hard work, we can understand each other regardless of where we come from. I truly believe in the power of love that God has placed in us. Yet, the chances are better that another person with an Armenian background will understand me better than one without. I must add of course, there is no guarantee that someone with an Armenian background will understand me either. We are speaking here of probabilities! I know that I don’t have all the time in the world. So, to improve my chances of finding fulfillment in my relationships, I am trying to find a soul mate in the Armenian community as opposed to looking for someone at large.

For both parents to come from an Armenian heritage I believe also helps the children and their sense of identity and belongingness. I believe that the children tend to have (and I want to emphasis ‘tend’) a clearer sense of identity if both parents come from the same background. Sure some people say that if the parents come from different backgrounds then the children will be more diverse. I think identity is like learning a language. It is always better to learn one language very well, rather than learning two languages half way. Being from one cultural heritage helps the children learn one culture very well and then expand and diversify from that culture. I must also add that the Armenian culture is very rich in spiritual and family values, so it is a good culture in which to grow and through it learn to appreciate other cultures.

I believe this makes a difference in the religious aspect of a family as well. There are many Armenian traditions that are based upon the Christian faith that bring the whole family together. When we as spouses have a common religious heritage then I would not feel that I have to explain, apologize or defend my religious traditions. I believe that the children would see this and they will be inspired. But if there are differences in our religious backgrounds, then the children would become confused. In fact, I would think, though I am not sure, that if the children see that attending one Church as opposed to another is going to cause complications between the parents, they may tend to stay away from all Churches and even religion completely. Again though, I must go back and say that there are many children from all Armenian families who simply do not go to Church. At the same time, there are children from families where one parent is Armenian and the other is not where the young people serve in the Church faithfully. So I must remind you, I am speaking of probabilities for which there are always exceptions!

I believe that if children do not grow up with an appreciation of their parents’ religious and cultural heritage, then the children will not fully understand their parents. So this is not just for the long-term interest of the children or lets say for the sake of the nation. No, it is for the interest of the parents as well!

I think that when there is no commonality of culture between parents, there is another more subtle loss that takes place within the family. I believe that if both parents come from the same religious and cultural heritage, then they have more time to focus on the deeper and multi-layered aspects of life. But if the parents come from different backgrounds, since they likely cannot do everything together, they will tend to leave out the real deep and unique aspects of each parent’s background. Instead, they will engage in activities that are more individual person oriented as opposed to the larger family and community oriented. They will tend to lose the breadth and depth of life. I think this robs both the parents as well as the children from the beauty of the community life. Again I am sure there are exceptions.

To illustrate my point, let me give you a real living example. We have a person who is not married to an Armenian but he is really attached to his Armenian identity. Unfortunately, because his wife is not Armenian, she does not come to any of the Armenian functions. They are a good couple, and love each other as husband and wife. There is no question about that. They will not divorce! I can guarantee you that! Yet, the husband generally feels lonely, and he has said so, when we have an event and his wife is not present. In addition, both his sons, 18 and 16 years old, do not attend any of our Armenian gatherings because they never bothered to learn the Armenian language, religious belief or cultural traditions. The issue here is not to establish blame – his fault or her fault. That would be a very selfish and arrogant approach. Rather, we have to accept that that is one of the likely consequences of a marriage between two people of different heritage. In fact, the husband has given-into this reality and admits openly: “My Armenian heritage is going to die with me because my wife and sons don’t understand me!” So are they happy as a couple? I would say “Yes!” But is he, the husband, fulfilled? I would say “No!” I do not know about the wife. Would she be fulfilled if her husband is not? I guess you will have to ask her. But here is the point I am trying to illustrate: Marrying a person you love can lead to happiness. If that person is also Armenian and shares your beliefs and heritage, then I think it can lead to even greater fulfillment in life. This is the vision that I have and this is why I want to marry an Armenian!

[hyebruin]

Amen! Qristine

I like where you're coming from!

[Sip]

Barev Qristine

 

I can't say anything for sure about a specific "turk" person just as much as I doubt anyone could do. Sure, the turks as a group did amazingly horrible things to the Armenians in the past. As a group they are denying those wrong doings. But I think it's wrong to think that:

 

1) Every turkish individual was bad back then.

2) Every turkish individual is bad right now.

 

That's all I am saying ... I think it's wrong to pre-judge someone based on their race. I am technically an American now and probably the majority of the world hates me. Why?

 

About the long post, I also fully understand how you think now. I think it's a very "noble" way of thought and it's probably just that thinking that has resulted in "Armenians" continued existance in the world right now! I fully agree that if there are going to be children produced in a marriage, in today's world (US maybe somewhat of an exception), the couple should be of the same culture, heritage, etc etc.

 

The only problem I have is this: Would you then not marry an Armenian who does not believe in God? Or do you think someone who doesn't believe in God is NOT Armenian?

 

I may be wrong but the feeling I am getting from a lot of Armenians arriving to the US from Armenia, is that they are not that much into God.

[Harut]

i'm probably one of them.

 

i wear a cross across my neck, i celebrate chirstmas, easter, etc.

i was baptized, and i'll probably do the same for my kinds one day.

etc.

etc.

 

but...

 

all those are just symbolic traditions to me.

i don't do them out of my faith for god or such.

[QRISTINE]

EVEN A TURK? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Sip]

And what exactly is wrong with a "turk"?

[Accelerated]

So he/she can earn a living in an English speaking country.

[hasmiek]

wowie QRISTINE,

 

for a pure armenian girl you seem to be pretty sharp. you should watch out otherwise no pure armenian boy would want to marry you..

 

what's 'pure armenian' anyway?

 

[ December 02, 2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: hasmiek ]

[Accelerated]

Harut,

 

Why do you wear a the Cross then? As a fashion accessorie?

 

A little while ago I was watching the Cable Shopping Channel (for about 15 min...LOL). Anyhow, they were showing a cross incrusted with rocks (maybe diamonds), and the salesperson said something along the lines of "Apart from religion, this is a great fashion accessorie". I was infuriated, even if there was no God, respect should be shown for those who believed and paid for it with their lives.

 

btw. I dont wear the Cross or any other jewellery, and I find it distasteful when other men/youths do so......

[Accelerated]

Hasmiek,

 

Its a shame, you have allready forgotten/given up.

 

And I dont take the phrase literally, but it would be next to impossible to be one, living outside Armenia.

 

[ December 02, 2002, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Accelerated]

Qristine,

 

Just finished reading your (long) post, and I must say I agree with you, and dont let these hyenas( j/k) sway you, for God knows you are right!

[THOTH]

Qristine -

 

I think you have stated your position very well in your long post and I aplaud you for (holding to) your position. You should always do what you think is right for you and strive to achieve and accomplish what you want to in life - regardless of what anyone else might think or do. So bravo to you - I would never want to disuade you from your very noble ideals. Certainly if all Diasporan Armenians thought as you there would not be an issue of the eroding Armenian community in the Diaspora. However since most express this concern (over assimilation and disapearence of Armenian culture) it seems that many have made other choices - for better or worse. These individuals should not be judged harshly either - as they are making their life choices for themselves. Though I do think it is a shame and that they lose much by turning away from such a beautiful culture. Still everyone has their reasons ad who is really able to judge these things? If you suceed in your choices - and the Armenian community continues to florish through the years (somehow though I think it will have to evolve somewhat otherwise Armenians will be like the Amish - stuck in time) - then no problem - perhaps some (who have left/assimilated) will even re-enter the fold (or their grandchildren might...even half-breeds like Tigrannes). I suspect though that there might be aspects of the traditinal Armenian lifestyle (etc) - conservatism (in all its many forms including intolerance)/(nasty) church politics or the church/religion being less relevant for whatever reason that will continue to both drive (many)Armenians away and keep them away. And of course the allure (and anominity) of the Western lifestyle...this will always draw many as well - as will just mixing. One cannot stay completely isolated and some - like my mothers family - ended up in a place where there were too few Armenians to keep much of an Armenian nucleus. So what can one do? Just keep an open mind/heart is all that I suggest. And (in general) try not to be negative (concerning yourself or others).

[QRISTINE]

Hi to all Armenians in this forum and others

 

Thank you all so much lets have a toast lol according to this.Hi Hybruin lets drink and invite Seaphan over so he does not need to feel like he is not part of Armenian (joke)