THOTH Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:Please dont even try to compare NATIVE AMERICAN situation and Armenians because they are not the same not even close.My my - and who do we chastise for holding such attitudes? Thats right - Jews & Israel - now you are expressing the same kind of "exclusivisity" - and I find this very sad. Of course there are a great many differences - but the point Sip was making is completely valid and true. If all peoples who have been greviously wronged by another people (or had "their" lands taken away etc) were never able to (eventually)forgive etc - then mankind would be cursed to constantly be hating and fighting forever wars (makes me think of the H.R. Haldeman series of books...but your probably not familiar with them I wouldn't think..) - in fact this very type of situation leads to perpetuation of conflicts the globe over... I have some Jewish friends who refuse to this day to buy any type of German product and are very uneasy about Germans while others drive German cars and have vacationed to Germany. Though I understand the former attitude I think it is a shame that at some point folks can't seperate the people of today with events and people of the past. Certainly Turks and Turkey make this more difficult for us because they have not come to terms with what was done - but ultimatly it is their problem and should not be ours (to the point where it makes us twisted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 My my - and who do we chastise for holding such attitudes? Thats right - Jews & Israel - now you are expressing the same kind of "exclusivisity" - and I find this very sad. Of course there are a great many differences - but the point Sip was making is completely valid and true. If all peoples who have been greviously wronged by another people (or had "their" lands taken away etc) were never able to (eventually)forgive etc - then mankind would be cursed to constantly be hating and fighting forever wars (makes me think of the H.R. Haldeman series of books...but your probably not familiar with them I wouldn't think..) - in fact this very type of situation leads to perpetuation of conflicts the globe over... I have some Jewish friends who refuse to this day to buy any type of German product and are very uneasy about Germans while others drive German cars and have vacationed to Germany. Though I understand the former attitude I think it is a shame that at some point folks can't seperate the people of today with events and people of the past. Certainly Turks and Turkey make this more difficult for us because they have not come to terms with what was done - but ultimatly it is their problem and should not be ours (to the point where it makes us twisted). Thoththe point is I am trying to illustrate is if we are currently talking about Armenians stay on armenian topic I seriously not into what other nationalities did to each other far as I know we were talking about marring forighners. I wonder if there was a case that you never disagreed with Seaphan chlini es groxe nuin mardna? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Well Thoth, I believe you or your kids would have been perfect match for any turk. After all it is a matter of choice. Turk= a person who beats his wife at least 3 times a day, takes shower once a month, speaks strange language, has no perception about art and culture, have no sense of history or geography, whose ancestors most probably were involved in mass murder of Greeks, Armenians, Serbs etc.., whose university tuition is paid by his rich parents who became rich by crime, or by the militarist government that he praises on everyday basis just like his Allah, etc. etc.... Know I now the reaction before hand - generalization, racist, fascist, etc.., but if there are 3% of the overall turkish population that differ from the description above who is generalizing.... And they lived happily after...... in hell. An Armenian who marries a turk is not dumb *******, or traitor, he/she simply deserved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 yes of course: "generalization, racist, fascist, etc..." - I agree with your characterization of yourself and your comments. I have known plenty of Turks and none possess the qualities you cite. Funny that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE: I seriously not into what other nationalities did to each other With this attitude then why should any else ever care for what has happened to Armenians or what Armenians think? And it is those who care not for other people and for understanding others etc who are able to commit crimes against them - it is through understanding and appreciation (of the common elements among people etc) that we are able to learn and to treat each other as we expect to be treated etc etc quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:far as I know we were talking about marring forighners. OK - so? Part of this is the idea of who is worthy and such. Though I supose since Gamvar makes your day we can pretty much ascertain where you stand... quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:I wonder if there was a case that you never disagreed with Seaphan Wel, I don't much like trucks...hows that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:Hi to all Armenians in this forum and others Hi Hybruin lets drink and invite Seaphan over so he does not need to feel like he is not part of Armenian (joke) smilies/toast.gif smilies/toast.gifHey khmenk Tata-eeh gehnadtzeh Can you feel the cyberenergy? this is Tata on acid! (LSD that is!) (just a joke!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 I think people (here and everywhere) who believe that we should 'embrace' the turks and be 'nice to them' and 'give them all the benefit of the doubt'...(with the utmost sarcasm here!) should try to analyze and understand...where is it that their brain shortcircuits!!! I mean that... seriously!!! When the heck did we start to become so pc? I personally would never lash out at at turk, maybe a few choice words and walk away IF AND ONLY IF!! they provoked me! But, I highly doubt that I'll be in a situation like that... if I meet one of 'em somewhere I'll simply give them the same respect (regardless if they deserve it or not...'cause I'm not God and I don't know!)...but I could care less, don't even give a s**t about 'giving them a chance to prove themselves to be civil'...I REALLY DON'T CARE!!! And, like somebody earlier mentioned their grooming/hygiene habits...why should I give the little 3% a chance? Their ancestors didn't give mine a chance for basic survival...and you know what you cannot dilute out and cleanse blood that quickly! Theirs is a cultural/national consciousness which always puts them on the defensive...even in cyberspace...as I've encountered!!! 'cause they know they stink, in more ways than one....so I suggest all the so called 'open minded' ones to OPEN THEIR EYES!!! yeah, real wide! and see REALITY for what it really is...not some pretty and ideal fantasy they have in mind! Hmmmm! I wonder why the turks are now trying to sue NBC (I think) for portraying turks as nose picking, armenian hating, ignorants... there is no culture there, and IF,IF! at some point in history there was, the turks themselves did a pretty good job of smearing it, effacing it,...whatever! so why is it our job as Armenians to recognize their so called "good side" if they do not know how to carry themselves??? ....they still haven't learned, 'cause now they're trying to sell (bio/chem/nuc) weapons to Saddam!!! I mean come on! It's time we respected our dead just a little more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Qristine. Hi. You asked me What has made me changed my mind about Turks? and if I fall in love with one of them? No,I haven't fall in love with one. I changed my views because I learned that we can't prejudge people because of their ethnicity. When somebody is saying I would never marry and/or be friends with a Turk, that is passing a judgement because you are assuming so many things about that person.Also, I think we should all care about what happened to other nationalities because that is the only way for racial minorities to become united, form progressive alliances, and resist the dominant/oppressing groups. About Native Americans and Indigenous people? Currently, we are living on their lands. Their land and language were taking away from them (as it happened with Armenians). Do you have any idea of how many millions of Indigenous people were killed during colonization? and the impact that is still has in their lives (in the same way than for Armenians). Yes, the topic is marrying non-Armenians, but we need to analyze where our beliefs and pressumptions are coming from to be able to narrow it to the marriage question. As I said before, I respect your opinion and not trying to change your views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 GAMAVOR: Hello. You wrote "Turk= a person who beats his wife at least 3 times a day." In the United States, a woman is beat up every 9 seconds by her partner/boyfriend/husband. Every year,in the U.S., 6000 women are killed as a result of domestic violence. Domestic violence happens in all ethnic groups (of course Turks, Armenians included), social classes, etc. I think that you are making a huge generalization with the things you wrote as a definition of a Turk (doesn't take shower, etc.). Also, nobody deserves to be maltreated, no matter whom they chose to marry (that statement is blaming the victim, not the perpetrator). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 As on of the 'open minded ones', i'd like to point out that no one has said that we have to go out and find a Turk and kiss their feet! This isn't about embracing Turks, nor is it about their hygeine or grooming habits. This is about the Armenian community accepting and adapting to their neighbours, their new hosts, their new communities while maintaining and propogating their language and culture. This is DEFINITELY NOT about how much we hate Turks, and how we would die a thousand deaths before marrying one. The point is this: Perpetuate HATRED, and you will continue to perpatuate the VERY SAME THING that we all, as Armenians, deplore... So then why say, 'I HATE THOSE TURKISH BASTARDS' when it would be much more noble (not to mention more effective) to not mention anything at all... And what is this nonsense about 'cleansing blood' over just a few generations? Would the same disparaging remarks above be said about Germans, who are now amongst the leaders of Europe?? Do they not have blood on their hands? Should the jews spit in their faces? If a Turk approaches me, I will not spit in his face and tell him that his great-grandfather killed my great-grandfather. I will not kiss him either - I will simply treat him as another human... I ask you all: Is that wrong? Marry who you want - but teach your children well! Teach them history, teach them religion, teach them about Armenia and it's culture. Teach them the Armenian language. But more than anything, teach them not to hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 VAVA: Hi. I completely agree with what you are saying!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Thanks Lorely! Welcome to the forum I too, agree completely with your points above! (You managed to sneak your posts in before mine ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Very nicely said Vava. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 If I was a Turk I'd be embarrased of not only my culture and the history...but, I'd also be even more ashamed of the current politicians who supposedly "run my country"...it's absolutely absurd to compare the germans to turks!!! The former contributed much to society...and there is a DISTINCTION between a german and a nazi!!...however, no where have I heard of such a distinction between a turk and a ...turk(young ottoman turk) especially when they deny anything and everything... germans and turks are centuries apart as far as class and the way they treat others...I don't hate turks, I just could care less what happened to them... especially!!! after seeing a recent photograph of an ignorant turk holding the beheaded head of no! not an armenian this time, but of a kurdish soldier...that's what I mean when I say it's in the blood (figuratively! or maybe there's a genetic component where they're XYY (supermale) like the violent rapists and murderes who comprise a good proportion of the u.s. jails...don't believe me? check it out, it's all there! they truely are less evolved and if anyone doesn't see that, then they have their head stuck in the gutter...the way you're brought up, your country, culture, family, history...they ALL make up who you are... we do not exist in a vacuum!! and I actually commend those turks (like a university lecturer who's of turkish descent) who actually stand up and admit what every armenian wants the turkish government to admit: that indeed it was genocide!! but, all the rest who hide behind some b.s. WWI story and actually turn the tables around... they will suffer through hell either here or in the afterlife... it's good to have sympathy and not have hate for others...but, that does not mean they need to be accepted nor tolerated by society (case in point: bin ladin!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Loreley:GAMAVOR: Hello. You wrote "Turk= a person who beats his wife at least 3 times a day." In the United States, a woman is beat up every 9 seconds by her partner/boyfriend/husband. Every year,in the U.S., 6000 women are killed as a result of domestic violence. Domestic violence happens in all ethnic groups (of course Turks, Armenians included), social classes, etc. I think that you are making a huge generalization with the things you wrote as a definition of a Turk (doesn't take shower, etc.). Also, nobody deserves to be maltreated, no matter whom they chose to marry (that statement is blaming the victim, not the perpetrator).Does what you say means that American husbands beat their wives any 9 seconds?What I'm talking about is cultural differences that you might not experience immediately but somewhere in the near future you would become a victim of that. Yeah, follow your heart and be mindful of the consequences. If marring a turk is fine for you that would be fine for all your friends, but remember that such marriage is eternally doomed. As I said, whoever marries a turk deserved it. For some reason or another I'm better acquainted with the so-called turkish culture, and the examples that you might have for "decent" turks are probably your observations of people of turkish origin who are Americanized, or recent emigrants who left their country because they were unsuitable there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Hi Loreley In THIS CASE NOONE WILL BE ABLE TO CHANGE MY VIEWS ABOUT MARRING A TURK I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT. I Had A muslim frinds but the question is would I marry a Turk no thank you. And what Hyebruin and Hagarak are saying is who they really are why would you feel offended? thats what makes me think really hard arn't you happy that there are people who will like to marry somenone from their own ethnik background and religion? Hagarak I guess we can not keep them from marring a Turk ka chka mtqnere arden drel en lol:wobble: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 I meant Gamavor and Hyebruin sorry about that hagarak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 TOOTH"With this attitude then why should any else ever care for what has happened to Armenians or what Armenians think?" Excuse me should I care for Turks? Or foe Jews? I am Armenian I do need to know what happened to Armenians if you dont consider your self as one of them so dont even try to confuse others.Hi GAMAVOR GOOD FOR YOU BRAVOquote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Thothy-frooty is right as usual. Auhhh Aghtung: Stalin Beria Hitlerian :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:... I wonder if there was a case that you never disagreed with Seaphan chlini es groxe nuin mardna? You may not believe this, but I'd take that last part as a compliment. Seriously. But if we are in fact the same person, then that means we are here ROUND THE CLOCK and never sleep ... I AM addicted to this place but not that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:Hi Loreley Hagarak I guess we can not keep them from marring a Turk ka chka mtqnere arden drel en lol:wobble:Hmmm, maybe you meant this as a joke! otherwise, it sounds totally ignorant, or maybe you only read what you write... being a teacher as you have on your profile, it's sad and surprising to see ...anyone...really directly make such false and uncalled for judgements...it would be nice if a certain degree of courtesy and respect was observed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Hmmm, maybe you meant this as a joke! otherwise, it sounds totally ignorant, or maybe you only read what you write... being a teacher as you have on your profile, it's sad and surprising to see ...anyone...really directly make such false and uncalled for judgements...it would be nice if a certain degree of courtesy and respect was observed! It is truely absort for me for those people who do not hold on their positions which one of them end up being you. Vortex ksherke tsanr e ain koxmn es sharjvum. Why do I waste my time and fight for my nationality if they are the ones who are trying make you wrong? AM I IN DIFFERENT FORMUM? OR IT IS TRUELY ARMENIAN FORUM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Hi Qristine, I appreciate what you are saying in terms of marrying within one's ethnicity in order to ensure the continuum of race & culture. This is very commendable - BUT to say that an Armenian is no longer Armenian because he/she chooses to marry an odar is simply false, not to mention unfair. Please realise that we are all Armenian here (or at least mostly) and that just because someone may not agree with you, that doesn't mean they are not Armenian. Besides, nobody is telling you to marry a Turk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by vava:Hi Qristine, I appreciate what you are saying in terms of marrying within one's ethnicity in order to ensure the continuum of race & culture. This is very commendable - BUT to say that an Armenian is no longer Armenian because he/she chooses to marry an odar is simply false, not to mention unfair. Please realise that we are all Armenian here (or at least mostly) and that just because someone may not agree with you, that doesn't mean they are not Armenian. Besides, nobody is telling you to marry a Turk. Thank you Vava I think the 'problem' here is either a LANGUAGE BARRIER or not taking the time to READ and UNDERSTAND people's posts! Funny thing is Qristine and I share the same view on marrying armenians (though I'm not putting other people down for marrying outside! that's their business)....I'm baffled as to why she cannot see that??? but, that's unfortunately another common trait among us...to put one another down and pass on judgement without knowing the other person...this soooooo reminds me of my armenian school teachers...especially the nuns! and I was a good kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 Thank you Vava I think the 'problem' here is either a LANGUAGE BARRIER or not taking the time to READ and UNDERSTAND people's posts! Funny thing is Qristine and I share the same view on marrying armenians (though I'm not putting other people down for marrying outside! that's their business)....I'm baffled as to why she cannot see that??? but, that's unfortunately another common trait among us...to put one another down and pass on judgement without knowing the other person...this soooooo reminds me of my armenian school teachers...especially the nuns! and I was a good kid I guess I am writing in German and perfectly unable to read in English. Not a bad Idea. I understand when people are confused they are trying to make you wrong so anyways Doctors dont get upset with their patients I hope you understand the meaning of this saying. And show me the lines or places that I have stated that I put others down who did not marry an Armenian. "that's unfortunately another common trait among us...to put one another down and pass on judgement without knowing the other person...this soooooo reminds me of my armenian school teachers"I dont know if you are passing the judgement to other people, but in my case it is not a common sourse. And I dont know in what kind of enviornment you were raised in Armena because I never even went to the school over there so there is no possibilities that you WERE IN MY CLASS . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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