The Situation In Lebanon

[AK-47]

I don't think so...

 

We all know what happened in 1981 don't we.

 

Except that, as the saying goes, Iran is not Iraq.

Also, the Iranians actually learned from Iraq's mistake. Iraq's plants were all located above ground and close to each other...that's one of the reasons why it was easily destroyed. Iran has spread its reactors around and has some underground. It has also maximized security around the plants because it is expecting an attack. All this will make an Israeli tactical strike much more difficult than the Iraqi one in '81.

[Sassun]

Also, the Iranians actually learned from Iraq's mistake. Iraq's plants were all located above ground and close to each other...that's one of the reasons why it was easily destroyed. Iran has spread its reactors around and has some underground. It has also maximized security around the plants because it is expecting an attack. All this will make an Israeli tactical strike much more difficult than the Iraqi one in '81.

Yes, underground , but not all are underground. How effective are Iran's air defenses ? Is Iran relying on them, or it can't, and will be basing its strategy on 'balance of terror' (and establishment of deterrence ) by firing rockets at Tel Aviv ?

 

At any rate , a strike is for sure coming , check out what Mofaz said a few days ago. And anyway anyone who has lived in this part of the world would know the way israelis think and how they will act .

 

a regional war is coming , and the winds of change are blowing , and the zionists are so stupid they don't realize that they will not be blown east of the Jordan river , but rather , thrown into the mediterranean.

[AK-47]

How effective are Iran's air defenses ? Is Iran relying on them, or it can't, and will be basing its strategy on 'balance of terror' (and establishment of deterrence ) by firing rockets at Tel Aviv ?

The Iranians are usually secretive about their military capabilities and usually only boast about new models of advanced weaponry they develop and successfully test from now and then. But I do know that Iran recently bought 25-30 advanced Tor-1 air defense systems.

 

Also, I've heard president Ahmadinejad not ruling out a pre-emptive strike. He has also said repeated time and time again that it will not take crap from bully nations and it will counter-attack using massive force. Probably an attack on US bases and/or Israel.

 

Regarding the strategic locations of Iran's nuclear plants, the Israelis have played it smart as well. The Negev nuclear power plant is located right next to the Jordanian border meaning any damage to it would affect them as well.

Edited June 10, 2007 by AK-47

[Sassun]

The Iranians are usually secretive about their military capabilities and usually only boast about new models of advanced weaponry they develop and successfully test from now and then. But I do know that Iran recently bought 25-30 advanced Tor-1 air defense systems.

 

Also, I've heard president Ahmadinejad not ruling out a pre-emptive strike. He has also said repeated time and time again that it will not take crap from bully nations and it will counter-attack using massive force. Probably an attack on US bases and/or Israel.

 

Regarding the strategic locations of Iran's nuclear plants, the Israelis have played it smart as well. The Negev nuclear power plant is located right next to the Jordanian border meaning any damage to it would affect them as well.

i think that Iran should give Israel a taste of its own medicine , and launch a pre-emptive attack itself . since according to israel rhetoric in 1956 and 1967 justified its aggression and occupation , then Iran would be justified in launching "pre-emptive" attack on Israel . Iran + Palestinians + Hezb Allah + Syria .

 

Anyway my point about air defense was more about the usage of these weapons and not just ownership. The Syrians in 1967 had air defense but did not know how to use them , so in 1973 the Soviets sent the technicians along with the air defense systems lol... almost all of them were Armenian .

 

 

[AK-47]

i think that Iran should give Israel a taste of its own medicine , and launch a pre-emptive attack itself . since according to israel rhetoric in 1956 and 1967 justified its aggression and occupation , then Iran would be justified in launching "pre-emptive" attack on Israel . Iran + Palestinians + Hezb Allah + Syria .

 

While Israel would get away legally with a pre-emptive strike (due to the USA's veto power in the biased UN), Iran would be hit hard with sanctions. Let's just hope things remain as they are, for now. We don't need our Iranian friends hurt at a time when we need them the most.

 

Anyway my point about air defense was more about the usage of these weapons and not just ownership. The Syrians in 1967 had air defense but did not know how to use them , so in 1973 the Soviets sent the technicians along with the air defense systems lol... almost all of them were Armenian .

 

LOL, Սուրիացիները ինչ՞ գիտեն որ ճիշտ ընել: «Բերուշան» են ատոնք: jk.

[Shahan Araradian]

Btw it seems that the Israelis are getting ready to strike Iran.

Sassun, why would they do such a "stupid" thing, if they can have Americans do a "stupid thing" for them? (Just like in Iraq...)

 

The Zionist democratic U.S. Senator Joe Lieberman has called on the U.S. to attack Iran by employing the age-old Zionist tactic: creating APPARENT enemies of the U.S. by propagating lies.

 

LIEBERMAN: "I think we've got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq."

 

WHAT??? The Iranians are killing Americans in Iraq??? Is this guy joking? Who is he kidding? There is an Iraqi popular UPRISING against the American occupation of their homes!!! Iranians have nothing to do with that!

 

LIEBERMAN: "And to me that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people to kill our soldiers."

 

He's already planning an attack, without even proving that the Iranians are doing anything wrong??? Is this a joke? Show us the evidence Lieberman!!!

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19155822/

 

Continuing on in the article, we read: "One senior official told the FT the US believed Iran was providing Chinese-made armour-piercing weaponry to Iraqi militants."

 

This sounds a lot like the wartime propaganda leading up to the "case" to attack Iraq:

1) Anonymous "senior officials" making claims on the target country

2) Unverifiable claims that the enemy has powerful weapons and is providing them to "terrorists" to use against Americans.

 

Once again, BASELESS and UNVERIFIABLE claims hurled at the enemies of Zionism to make it appear as though the enemies of Zionism are also enemies of America... all in order to use American soldiers and American tax payer dollars to fight Israel's wars.

 

They did it with Iraq and now they're turning up the propaganda on Iran.

 

Nonsense! I say enough! Why can't Iran use nuclear technology to generate electricity? Even more, why can't Iran use nuclear technology to create weapons, as has done Israel?

 

I hope the American people wake up this time TO END THE ZIONIST HIJACKING OF THE UNITED STATES.

 

We (the American people) need to build FRIENDSHIP with the Palestinians, the Hezbollah, the Syrians, and the Iranians. We don't want suicide bombers on our doorsteps! We want to live and let live. We don't want to support Israel at the detriment of the rest of the humans in the region. Let's END the artificial animosity by Americans towards the Arabs and Iranians created by the Zionists!!! America would be better off having 400 million Arab and Iranian friends, rather than 20 million Zionist friends, anyway -- a people who are clearly not working in the best interests of the American people, having hijacked the U.S. government, military, and American media.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

We (the American people) need to build FRIENDSHIP with the Palestinians, the Hezbollah, the Syrians, and the Iranians.

 

The US was well on its way to build friendships with Iran during Katami. They are the ones who went and ruined it all by "electing" this nut job Ahmadinejad. Iran needs the US a lot more than the US needs Iran. If friendship is what they want, they are doing a very poor job at trying to win the American people over. How do you expect to befriend Americans when the Iranian president stands up and proudly proclaims there was no "Holocaust"? In the mean time, thousands and thousands of Americans have given up their lives in World War II to put an end to the Nazi take over of Europe.

[ArmoPhil]

Sassun, why would they do such a "stupid" thing, if they can have Americans do a "stupid thing" for them? (Just like in Iraq...)

 

The Zionist democratic U.S. Senator Joe Lieberman has called on the U.S. to attack Iran by employing the age-old Zionist tactic: creating APPARENT enemies of the U.S. by propagating lies.

 

LIEBERMAN: "I think we've got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq."

 

WHAT??? The Iranians are killing Americans in Iraq??? Is this guy joking? Who is he kidding? There is an Iraqi popular UPRISING against the American occupation of their homes!!! Iranians have nothing to do with that!

 

LIEBERMAN: "And to me that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people to kill our soldiers."

 

He's already planning an attack, without even proving that the Iranians are doing anything wrong??? Is this a joke? Show us the evidence Lieberman!!!

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19155822/

 

Continuing on in the article, we read: "One senior official told the FT the US believed Iran was providing Chinese-made armour-piercing weaponry to Iraqi militants."

 

This sounds a lot like the wartime propaganda leading up to the "case" to attack Iraq:

1) Anonymous "senior officials" making claims on the target country

2) Unverifiable claims that the enemy has powerful weapons and is providing them to "terrorists" to use against Americans.

 

Once again, BASELESS and UNVERIFIABLE claims hurled at the enemies of Zionism to make it appear as though the enemies of Zionism are also enemies of America... all in order to use American soldiers and American tax payer dollars to fight Israel's wars.

 

They did it with Iraq and now they're turning up the propaganda on Iran.

 

Nonsense! I say enough! Why can't Iran use nuclear technology to generate electricity? Even more, why can't Iran use nuclear technology to create weapons, as has done Israel?

 

I hope the American people wake up this time TO END THE ZIONIST HIJACKING OF THE UNITED STATES.

 

We (the American people) need to build FRIENDSHIP with the Palestinians, the Hezbollah, the Syrians, and the Iranians. We don't want suicide bombers on our doorsteps! We want to live and let live. We don't want to support Israel at the detriment of the rest of the humans in the region. Let's END the artificial animosity by Americans towards the Arabs and Iranians created by the Zionists!!! America would be better off having 400 million Arab and Iranian friends, rather than 20 million Zionist friends, anyway -- a people who are clearly not working in the best interests of the American people, having hijacked the U.S. government, military, and American media.

They'd do it to protect their own damn race. "Israel should be wiped off the map". Wouldn't you be afraid for your own race if Turkey had said "Armenia should be wiped off the map"? America is living well, they have basically the richest Arab countries as their allies. The Saudis, U.A.E, and non-Arabic Turkey.

[ArmoPhil]

Orm'uh gue desnek. Evrobatsiner'uh bid cheraynanan ays Zionisteren, yev 1939-1945 copy cat m'uh bidi ela. Amerigatsiner'uh aysor genan ne Israeli'n oknelou, Israeliner'uh kounvadz guelayin aysor. Eshou bes tram gounenangor Holocaust'in yeresen. The second reason why America doesn't oppose Israel is because of Religion. In the bible it says it they attack the Jewish state, there will be a apocalypse.

[Shahan Araradian]

The US was well on its way to build friendships with Iran during Katami. They are the ones who went and ruined it all by "electing" this nut job Ahmadinejad. Iran needs the US a lot more than the US needs Iran. If friendship is what they want, they are doing a very poor job at trying to win the American people over. How do you expect to befriend Americans when the Iranian president stands up and proudly proclaims there was no "Holocaust"?

The Holocaust has nothing to do with American-Iranian relations. The Holocaust pertains to Jewish-Iranian relations. Whether or not the Holocaust occurred in the scale and details described by Zionists doesn't relate to the average American.

 

In the mean time, thousands and thousands of Americans have given up their lives in World War II to put an end to the Nazi take over of Europe.

What does this fact have to do with anything?

[Shahan Araradian]

They'd do it to protect their own damn race. "Israel should be wiped off the map". Wouldn't you be afraid for your own race if Turkey had said "Armenia should be wiped off the map"? America is living well, they have basically the richest Arab countries as their allies. The Saudis, U.A.E, and non-Arabic Turkey.

The Zionists ALREADY wiped Iraq off the map by getting the Americans to attack it. Actions speak louder than words; therefore RECOGNIZE the actions of the Zionists. The Zionists have already declared war on every Arab nation, and they themselves are actively in the process of wiping out every Arab nation on the map.

 

It's a war; both sides say they will wipe out the other.

 

My point is in regards to the American people; it's not in the best interest of the American people to take sides in this Zionist-Arab-Iranian conflict. By agreeing to support the Zionists, the American people are subject (unnecessarily) to the animosity of the other side, and that (not surprisingly) manifests itself as violence at home in the U.S.

 

If the U.S. stops its unfair support of Israel, then the U.S. and the American people would be much better off and safer.

 

Let the Zionists fend for themselves in the Middle East; American tax payer money should be spend AT HOME to improve the lives of AMERICANS, not Israelis using helicopter gunships to maintain a racist apartheid state.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[ArmoPhil]

In any ways, the world is unfair towards Arabs. The Americans have what is called "The Patriot Act" which allows cops to imprison dark-skinned Arabs for no reason and also without bail. But to note that Muslims can get anything along. They are in their fanatic world. Remember the caricatures of Muhammad? There were people with posters saying "Behead those who insult Islam". Do you see Christians taking the streets after some douche bag insulted Christ? No.

[Sip]

What does this fact have to do with anything?

 

The FACT is Americans (the people) pride themselves on doing good and "the right things" in the world. A Bozo like Ahmadinejad standing up and saying the Holocaust didn't happen, is basically delivering a HUGE slap in the face of Americans who GAVE THEIR LIVES to make sure those responsible for the Holocaust and the huge destruction and deaths in Europe were stopped.

 

Iran cannot win America's trust by biggotry, religious or fundamental preaching, or threats. The only way they can have any hopes to become friends with the US (and its people) is through understanding, tolerance, and frankly, a much higher level of respect for civil liberties. Also (as just a small example), getting all bent out of shape and lighting streets on fire because someone might have drawn a picture of their beloved Mohammad is certainly NOT going to win any fans over here in the states. They have to learn to separate their dogma from their treatment of the rest of the world. So far, I see a lot of Islamic barking and aggressive posturing from over there (Iran) and nothing much in terms of diplomatic efforts to try to establish relations.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Sip

[Sip]

In any ways, the world is unfair towards Arabs. ...

 

As Bill Maher would say, that's not unfair. That's not racist. That is being "minimally observant". I am actually almost dumbfounded when I walk right through security at the airpots and then they pull out some old white haired lady with a walker and give her the head-to-tow search down.

 

[Shahan Araradian]

In any ways, the world is unfair towards Arabs. The Americans have what is called "The Patriot Act" which allows cops to imprison dark-skinned Arabs for no reason and also without bail. But to note that Muslims can get anything along. They are in their fanatic world. Remember the caricatures of Muhammad? There were people with posters saying "Behead those who insult Islam". Do you see Christians taking the streets after some douche bag insulted Christ? No.

ArmoPhil, again, it depends on the SAMPLE of the population you take. This is a simple outcome of statistical analysis:

 

For example, a particular media outlet you see on TV (such as CNN) may choose to air video footage of the most RADICAL elements of a particular Muslim population (e.g. burning an American flag) and then go on to INFER that the rest of the population is the same...

 

If we take a similar sample of the most radical Orthodox Jews (for example those Orthodox Jews who were attacking Palestinians with machine gun fire and grenades) and show that on television, then we might infer that all Israelis are terrorists and want to kill of every gentile in their vicinity.

 

Fundamentalism knows no ideology. Zionist fundamentalists are on par with Islamic fundamentalist who are on par with extreme Turkish nationalists.

[Shahan Araradian]

The FACT is Americans (the people) pride themselves on doing good and "the right things" in the world. A Bozo like Ahmadinejad standing up and saying the Holocaust didn't happen, is basically delivering a HUGE slap in the face of Americans who GAVE THEIR LIVES to make sure those responsible for the Holocaust and the huge destruction and deaths in Europe were stopped.

It's freedom of speech to discuss the veracity of the Holocaust. Any efforts to enforce laws on what one may speak about in public is a violation of freedom of speech. In this way, Iran has greater freedom of speech than Europe, where it is a crime to have an academic discussion on the Holocaust wherein some question the veracity of some "Facts".

 

In my opinion, there is a REASON for everything. Hitler didn't just wake up one day and decide to wipe all Zionists off the map of Germany (and convinced overnight every German to do the same). Think about the REASONS for the Holocaust; think about the Zionist control of German media... Think about Zionist control of American media... What is common here? Zionist control.

 

It is very normal for the German people to distrust foreign control of their own media and government by elements amongst the German population but which were working in NOT the best interest of the German people, but in the best interest of Zionism. Same thing is happening today in the U.S.

 

That is why Zionists are disliked everywhere they go. There is a REASON for everything.

 

Iran cannot win America's trust by biggotry, religious or fundamental preaching, or threats. The only way they can have any hopes to become friends with the US (and its people) is through understanding, tolerance, and frankly, a much higher level of respect for civil liberties. Also (as just a small example), getting all bent out of shape and lighting streets on fire because someone might have drawn a picture of their beloved Mohammad is certainly NOT going to win any fans over here in the states. They have to learn to separate their dogma from their treatment of the rest of the world. So far, I see a lot of Islamic barking and aggressive posturing from over there (Iran) and nothing much in terms of diplomatic efforts to try to establish relations.

Iran can do whatever it wants on its own soil. It's not upto the U.S. or anyone else to dictate what they can and can not do.

 

This is called SELF-DETERMINATION of a people on their own historic homeland.

 

Iran has never threatened to attack the U.S. The American people do not need to attack nor reform Iran. It is not their business.

 

Iran is NOT dictating to the rest of the world how to live. The U.S. should have the same decency. The reason for the ARTIFICIAL ANIMOSITY being built by the Zionist controlled media is one and only one purpose: get the American military to attack Iran on behalf of the Zionists.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

In this way, Iran has greater freedom of speech than Europe, where it is a crime to have an academic discussion on the Holocaust wherein some question the veracity of some "Facts".

 

LMAO! "Freedom of Speech" that happens to be in line with the views of those in charge is not "freedom". "Freedom of speech" in Iran? That is VERY laughable even in the context of the Holocaust. Of course there is a HUGE "freedom" in Iran to go and scream "Death to Israel" .. but that doesn't mean there is "freedom of speech".

 

As far as anti Genocide and Holocaust denial laws in Europe, I completely agree that they are wrong.

 

Edited June 11, 2007 by Sip

[Dave]

The US won't change its policy in regards to Israel and the Islamic world overnight. Ever since Israel's foundation, the US has been supportive of the Zionist state, because of, as Shahan said, there are Zionists in top positions in the American government. The American people need to revert the brainwashing that has been done unto them in order to see the Zionists' bad intentions. That's practically impossible with the current Republican government and the neo-cons.

 

Zionism should also be toppled in Israel as well. Zionism is basically the Jewish version of nationalism, an archaic 19th century ideology. Jews should see that Zionism is taking them to doom, instead of solving problems. They should see that they can live side by side with their Arab neighbors; they're all humans after all. They should quit their chauvinistic views. Everyone who valorizes the Holy Lands (be it the Muslims, Jews, Christians, and even the Bahai) should be able to freely live in it and pray in it without being under the constant threat of hard-liners. But that's an initiative that the Jews will have to take.

 

As far as anti Genocide and Holocaust denial laws in Europe, I completely agree that they are wrong.

 

I suppose you're talking about the Armenian genocide. I think that they should keep the Armenian genocide denial laws, but remove the Holocaust denial laws, even though it'd be criticized as "double-standards". The Jews have enough enforced their Holocaust in the minds of Westerners in an effort to gain sympathy and to promote Zionism. They've done that enough. The Holocaust is very important in the promotion of Zionism; freely discussing the issue (I don't know if that's even possible at anymore) would devastate the support for Zionism.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Dave

[annannimusss]

Sassun, there is not one Shite in the Town of Zahle, IT is a all Christian city! Your the first person to have ever said this and probably the lst.

 

[annannimusss]

Why do many people think that the Tashnags killed Monte Melkonian? I myself can see why people say this, either in his brothers book, or his own memoirs it says this, or something like this, but I will go buy both of them and tell you guys when I am done reading this if it says that or not.

[Dave]

No I think they're saying that Monte has killed Tashnags.

[Shahan Araradian]

Isn't it ironic?... that Zionists have created and run such institutions as the "Museum of Tolerance" (to teach people to "tolerate" Zionism) and yet they have so much INtolerance themselves towards Palestinians, Iraqis, and Iranians...

 

As an aside, "tolerance" is an interesting word:

 

WordWeb defines "tolerance" as "The power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavourable environmental conditions"

 

This implies that Zionism is that "unfavourable environmental condition" that the organism (humanity) needs to learn to tolerate.

 

Is that right? Should humanity be taught to tolerate a group of people who show no humanity towards humans not of "their kind" (i.e. "gentiles" as they call them)? Shouldn't humanity have the right to say NO?

Edited June 11, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sassun]

Sassun, there is not one Shite in the Town of Zahle, IT is a all Christian city! Your the first person to have ever said this and probably the lst.

You did not answer my question. When was the last time you were in Lebanon, and Zahle in particular ? In Zahle there are many, many Shiites. People also assume for example that Jbeil / Byblos is an exclusively Christian city. Wrong. There are many, many Shiites in Jbeil even though Jbeil is in a predominantly Christian populated region !

 

Btw my dear , what sayst thou about the Leb Sunnis - your allies , who just looooooooooooooooooooooooooove Armenians for their black eyes - who are bugging and threatening Armenians in Anjar routinely and have a free hand against us there , since the SYRIAN withdrawal ? Ever heard of your allies' favorite Al-Qaida gang in MAJDAL ANJAR ? They were released with your other favorite ally , Samir Geagea , by "amnesty".

Edited June 11, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

They'd do it to protect their own damn race. "Israel should be wiped off the map". Wouldn't you be afraid for your own race if Turkey had said "Armenia should be wiped off the map"? America is living well, they have basically the richest Arab countries as their allies. The Saudis, U.A.E, and non-Arabic Turkey.

Protect their "race" ? if the zionazis had not been so greedy , after the 1948 war they could have had peace with the Arab states. If the zionazis had not been so greedy , after they would not have attacked Egypt in 1956 in collaboration with UK and France ! if they had not been so greedy they would not have attacked in 1967 when there is no proof that the Egyptians & Syrians were up to a large scale attack ! And then after 1967 if they had not been greedy they would have had peace with all the Arab states . If they had not been so greedy , they would not have portrayed the 1973 attack as an existential threat. It was not, nor was it intended to be. The reson they portrayed it as such was to justify their policies and future actions. If they had not bee greedy they would not have coveted Lebanon's waters and put it in their 1919 WZO proposed map !!! If they had not greedy they would not have invaded Lebanon in 1978 and then in 1982 on the basis that a toy rocket landed here and there once or twice a year . they would not have occupied Lebanon for 18 years , tortured thousands of Lebanese , occupied WB & Gaza & Golan for 40 years, and then whined about "security" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if America weren't so stupid they would not have fallen for any of this sh*t and would not have subjected themselves to 9/11 or Iraqi mess and maybe who knows , the Iranian mess in the future ! Zionism is on its way to destruction (by its own collapse ) and the only thing that can possibly save it is a regional war. this is the plan, and the zionists are trying to recruit American soldiers . if that fails in the case of Iran , they will not accept that their greed not be satisfied (Shahan this is the answer to your question to me ) and attack Iran themselves.

[Sassun]

Also (as just a small example), getting all bent out of shape and lighting streets on fire because someone might have drawn a picture of their beloved Mohammad is certainly NOT going to win any fans over here in the states. They have to learn to separate their dogma from their treatment of the rest of the world. So far, I see a lot of Islamic barking and aggressive posturing from over there (Iran) and nothing much in terms of diplomatic efforts to try to establish relations.

As far as the Danish cartoons are concerned , Iran's (and Iranian people's response more generally ) was by far the most civilized (compare that to the Salafi Sunnis , Ramgavar Sako's favorite allies' pet dogs , who set Achrafieh on fire ) . Iran was very clever in its response to the so-called cartoons are about freedom of speech argument , and launched a Holocaust cartoons contest. Gotta love 'em !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So Sip , tell me , are you happy that your MONEY is going to fund these terrorists who do not even view you as an equal human being but rather as a "goy" (gentile) ?

Are Americans happy that their sons are dying in Iraq for zionist wet dreams ?

Sometimes I think that the mess that America has gotten itself into should be attributed more to American idiocy or sleepiness than zionist control (though this is the primary reason for the sleepiness ? ) . One can argue that this was also the case in Germany , until Nazis came to power and decided to put an end to this disgusting tumor and phenomenon. Now, when will America wake up from the spell ?

When it does , nothing will save these dirty zionists , not their "chosenness" nor their dreams of an armed Messiah coming to lead them to occupy the entire world (even their religion is based on GREED) .

Edited June 11, 2007 by Sassun