Muslim Armenian?

[Sip]

Basic fact of the matter remains, that religion has often been a huge hinderance to real progress. Just look in the past 200 years and you will see religion had very little to do with our most profound break throughs and advancements. If it weren't for superstitions, false beliefs, and man made religions, I think we would have been far far far more advanced than we are today. More importantly, there would have been far fewer conflicts if people hadn't made all these different (and at times conflicting) assumptions and then defined them to be true and then decided to die to defend those "beliefs".

 

[annannimusss]

I was thinking in bed last night and something hit me. My family in the Ottoman Empire(Western Armenia) were only Turkish Speakers (Turka-Khosogh).And I thought to myself what is the one thing keeping them from being considered Turks, and you guys know what that one thing was? It was being Christian, it was being part of the Armenian Church, it was saying proudly yes I am a Christian and I am an Armenian. They may have lost there language , but they had something more important that kept them Armenian. This is the Church, a living and continuing history that put a wall up between us and the Animalistic Turks.

 

I was wondering, what do you guys think of this assesment? I really would like to hear what you guys think about it.

[Arvestaked]

And I thought to myself what is the one thing keeping them from being considered Turks, and you guys know what that one thing was? It was being Christian...

 

What kept them from being Turkish was the fact that they were Armenian. Ethnic feelings are not dependant on religion but people unacquainted with the perspective of the non-theistic outlook cannot see that so easily. I never had religion and I didn't speak Armenian very well as a child but there was never a doubt that I was Armenian.

 

[annannimusss]

But are we not comparing different time periods and different situations, where if one was lets say a muslim he would marry a muslim.And if that whole village became muslim, they would have been muslims and not Armenians, look at the Hamshenis, one group feels Armenian and says they are Armenian secretly, the other thinks that Armenians are terrorists and the others are Christian and consider themselves Armenian. Isn't this a good example of what happens to Armenians who become muslim.

 

I see your point and see where you are coming from, but what do you think about the Hamsheni example?

[Arvestaked]

But are we not comparing different time periods and different situations, where if one was lets say a muslim he would marry a muslim.And if that whole village became muslim, they would have been muslims and not Armenians, look at the Hamshenis, one group feels Armenian and says they are Armenian secretly, the other thinks that Armenians are terrorists and the others are Christian and consider themselves Armenian. Isn't this a good example of what happens to Armenians who become muslim.

 

I see your point and see where you are coming from, but what do you think about the Hamsheni example?

 

 

For one thing, saying one group feels this and one group feels that seems to be an unfounded and meaningless statement. It is not a cultural analysis. And I also don't know what the whole secrecy thing is. That also seems irrelevant. Secondly, a significant portion of them still speak a dialect of Armenian, even Islamic ones. Lastly, they actually have a different culture all together since they have been isolated for so long. And that culture differs from those of the Arabs and Turks proving that it takes more than just the religion for them to feel like they are not Hamsheni. They know their history and they recognize themselves for what they are: Hamsheni, descendants of an Armenian sect. If they did not feel themselves different, well they probably wouldn't exist anymore. By now you would have a bunch of mixed-blooded people -- probably mostly non-Hamsheni -- who might recognize that they have some Hamsheni ancestry. But this is not the case.

[annannimusss]

But the Western kind, I think the Western kind at least say that they are not Armenian and say it proudly.They say they are not descended from Armenians.And they now use Turkish this group not the Armenian dialect, only a few Armenian words. The other hamshens in Turkey do still speak a Hamshen dialect though.

[Arvestaked]

But the Western kind, I think the Western kind at least say that they are not Armenian and say it proudly.They say they are not descended from Armenians.And they now use Turkish this group not the Armenian dialect, only a few Armenian words.

 

I don't know what they say. I've never had one speak to me so I don't know how true that is. But I find it difficult to believe that everybody else knows the Hamsheni origins except for that one group of them. And it doesn't matter anyway. They don't consider themselves anything but Hamsheni. Their cultural separation is due more to geographical isolation and not change of religion. And even the fact that the two Muslim groups are dissimilar and do not entirely agree alone would prove that.

 

Religion may have helped people keep their unity in the past. It may have. I'm nowhere near being entirely convinced of that. But what I am certainly more sure of is that whatever situations they were in that might have demanded reliance on religion for unity were conflicts that arose from religious differences to begin with.

 

Religion is out-dated and it's wrong. Finding rare practical uses for it doesn't change the fact that it is illogical and wrong and should not be touted as knowledge.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Arvestaked

[irlandahay]

It's good to know that people are (somewhat -- pending further replies....) open-minded. There seems to be this animosity against Muslims amongst Armenians. It's understandable that there is the issue of Genocide and Turkey and also Azerbaijan but I think that should not be a hindrance to more tolerance. I think that Armenians are overprotective from Islam because they are afraid it will rob them of their roots and achieve what was not achieved through genocide... I understand (my great-grandparents survived the genocide). But I think that what was done and what is happening now at the hands of so-called Muslims, is not really what Islam is about.

 

yes, lets invite islam in. lets bring some exotic arabs into our armenia. our 1600 year old churches will be turned into mosques, wel be singing allah wakbar instead of Hair mer.

 

screw multiculturalism, screw open-mindedness. We have survived 8000 years, why stop now?

I wouldnt mind a pagan, nor an atheist, nor a bouddhist. But Islam is a religion that spreads and assimilates. Lets hand over the last christian safe haven in the mid-east to the moslems and we can say goodbye to our identity.

 

dont even consider it as an option.

[Shahan Araradian]

yes, lets invite islam in. lets bring some exotic arabs into our armenia. our 1600 year old churches will be turned into mosques, wel be singing allah wakbar instead of Hair mer.

 

screw multiculturalism, screw open-mindedness. We have survived 8000 years, why stop now?

I wouldnt mind a pagan, nor an atheist, nor a bouddhist. But Islam is a religion that spreads and assimilates. Lets hand over the last christian safe haven in the mid-east to the moslems and we can say goodbye to our identity.

 

dont even consider it as an option.

For your info, Iran is one of Armenia's closest strategic allies.

 

It's not about religion... It's not as simple as that. It's about state interests.

[annannimusss]

I was talking about the past, and now for a young person who goes to Church every week it is hard for me to see people leave the Church for one reason or another. Hell the Coptic Youth that I know are more devout than the Armenian Youth, they go to church every sunday, never missing a day, they are well versed about the Bible. But here in Fresno and the Central Valley the one thing that has kept the non-Armenian speaking 4th and 5th Generation Armenians somewhat Armenian is the Church. They proudly say that they go to a Armenian Church and this way they have a lot more contact with Armenians.They go to events and all kinds of things.

 

 

With Shahan and what he said about Iran, I have to completely agree. We need them, and they need us to help keep the Animal Turks in Check.

Edited June 15, 2007 by SakoPasha

[hijabbed]

WOW

yall need to relax..its not like Sassun is tryna convert you guys. The question is would you accept an Armeninan muslim, or not? Not is islam philisofical, is it real blah blah. Those questions you gota find out for yourself and if you're certain Islam/christianity/judaism etc is fake then you shouldnt hesitate to go research on those religions.

 

Peace out

 

I dont get. How is there irony in that?

[Anonymouse]

yes, lets invite islam in. lets bring some exotic arabs into our armenia. our 1600 year old churches will be turned into mosques, wel be singing allah wakbar instead of Hair mer.

 

screw multiculturalism, screw open-mindedness. We have survived 8000 years, why stop now?

I wouldnt mind a pagan, nor an atheist, nor a bouddhist. But Islam is a religion that spreads and assimilates. Lets hand over the last christian safe haven in the mid-east to the moslems and we can say goodbye to our identity.

 

dont even consider it as an option.

 

Quoted for truth.

[hijabbed]

Quoted for truth.

You seem to never anwser my questions or respond to my direct posts at you.

 

izit coz i iz mozlem?

 

[Harut]

sassun, whatever you do, don't name your kid samvel...

[hosank]

For your info, Iran is one of Armenia's closest strategic allies.

 

It's not about religion... It's not as simple as that. It's about state interests.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2007 by hosank

[irlandahay]

For your info, Iran is one of Armenia's closest strategic allies.

 

It's not about religion... It's not as simple as that. It's about state interests.

 

tell me what Iran has done for us? a couple economic deals here and there but thats about it, and thats only because they are blockaded by the rest of the world. Iran kicks in here and there but our real ally is russia. It is also an islamic regime that is far from being democratic, and if it where up to me I wouldnt deal with them at all.

 

and Iranian young men come in to yerevan for university, they meet an armenian woman, marry them, converts them to islam, and then go back to iran. slowly wer getting assimilated.

[annannimusss]

Those girls are idiots for doing that!

 

Russia is a real ally yes, but I still say we need Iran.

[AK-47]

tell me what Iran has done for us? a couple economic deals here and there but thats about it, and thats only because they are blockaded by the rest of the world. Iran kicks in here and there but our real ally is russia. It is also an islamic regime that is far from being democratic, and if it where up to me I wouldnt deal with them at all.

Actually, I believe during the Artsakh liberation war, they were extra careful not to let Iranian-Azeris cross the Iranian border to aid their brethen. Also, we should be grateful to Iran...why you ask? Well this country shares the exact same religion as the Azeris and a big part of Iran is made up of ethnic Azeris (including Ayatollah Khamenei). They could've easily decided to completely support Azerbaijan and blockade us (like the Hntgahavs) but they did not (except for some smuggled help from the Azeri diaspora in the country). Iran will be the key to our future economic success. I'd trust a Muslim Iranian over a Christian Georgian anyday.

 

Armenia was not democratic either (today it is still questionable although vast improvements have taken place) and they are Christian. As far as elections are concerned, Ahmadinejad was elected fair and square.

[Armenak]

slowly wer getting assimilated.

So what else is new?

[Dave]

slowly wer getting assimilated.

 

The only ones who need to worry about that are those who live outside of Armenia, not in it.

[Shahan Araradian]

tell me what Iran has done for us? a couple economic deals here and there but thats about it, and thats only because they are blockaded by the rest of the world. Iran kicks in here and there but our real ally is russia. It is also an islamic regime that is far from being democratic, and if it where up to me I wouldnt deal with them at all.

What do you want Iran to do? Come and build Armenia? That is the job of Armenians. Relationships are give and take.

 

As far as allies in the neighboring region, Iran is at the top of the list.

 

and Iranian young men come in to yerevan for university, they meet an armenian woman, marry them, converts them to islam, and then go back to iran. slowly wer getting assimilated.

Think positive for a positive future.

 

Slowly Armenia is reversing 600 years of being the subjects of others. The struggle culminated in 1918, ended in 1920, but today the struggle for true independence continues and we are living in historic times (when isn't it a historic time?).

 

[but now those "others" have changed; it's no longer nation-states that subjugate other nations. Its global capitalists. What I mean is that Armenia should be careful as to what external loans it takes and what external entities it sells its core industries to. The way of enslavement today is no longer via force (although this certainly still exists, hence the need for a powerful and independent Armenian armed forces) it is legally done today through the flow of capital: I buy your power plants for $100 million and you pay me $20 million every year for as long as Armenia exist; or I give you $1billion this year and each year you (via citizens' tax dollars) pay me $100 million a year. If that $1billion was not invested wisely, guess who suffers -- the people, the economy, and the entire country, since they're all interconnected.]

Edited June 17, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[irlandahay]

Actually, I believe during the Artsakh liberation war, they were extra careful not to let Iranian-Azeris cross the Iranian border to aid their brethen. Also, we should be grateful to Iran...why you ask? Well this country shares the exact same religion as the Azeris and a big part of Iran is made up of ethnic Azeris (including Ayatollah Khamenei). They could've easily decided to completely support Azerbaijan and blockade us (like the Hntgahavs) but they did not (except for some smuggled help from the Azeri diaspora in the country). Iran will be the key to our future economic success. I'd trust a Muslim Iranian over a Christian Georgian anyday.

 

Armenia was not democratic either (today it is still questionable although vast improvements have taken place) and they are Christian. As far as elections are concerned, Ahmadinejad was elected fair and square.

 

No obviously thats true, but only because if Azergarbageland won the war, next they'd go for northern Iran. if they won they would gain power and those 35 million donkeys within iran can pose a threat. But Iran is a country of fundamentalists, daling with crhistians is the last of their concerns, and quite frankly, if we want recognition and internationnal aid, its best we dont ally ourselves with the Iranians.

 

Now obviously it sounds racist from here but I'm saying we cant trust the government. The people are nice enough but the government is evil...pure and simple.

 

And yes the georgians are good at being the worlds mutt but anyways...

[irlandahay]

What do you want Iran to do? Come and build Armenia? That is the job of Armenians. Relationships are give and take.

 

As far as allies in the neighboring region, Iran is at the top of the list.

Think positive for a positive future.

 

Slowly Armenia is reversing 600 years of being the subjects of others. The struggle culminated in 1918, ended in 1920, but today the struggle for true independence continues and we are living in historic times (when isn't it a historic time?).

 

[but now those "others" have changed; it's no longer nation-states that subjugate other nations. Its global capitalists. What I mean is that Armenia should be careful as to what external loans it takes and what external entities it sells its core industries to. The way of enslavement today is no longer via force (although this certainly still exists, hence the need for a powerful and independent Armenian armed forces) it is legally done today through the flow of capital: I buy your power plants for $100 million and you pay me $20 million every year for as long as Armenia exist; or I give you $1billion this year and each year you (via citizens' tax dollars) pay me $100 million a year. If that $1billion was not invested wisely, guess who suffers -- the people, the economy, and the entire country, since they're all interconnected.]

 

I understand what you mean and it seems to make sense. But for now our realtions with Iran are rather stable, but I dont trust them. I dont think we should depend on anyone to come help us out at all. We can do it ourselves. But if your going to have allys, best to make sure they are trustworthy.

 

[irlandahay]

The only ones who need to worry about that are those who live outside of Armenia, not in it.

 

Dave, are you hinting at me being half Irish?!

Edited June 17, 2007 by irlandahay

[DominO123]

Basic fact of the matter remains, that religion has often been a huge hinderance to real progress. Just look in the past 200 years and you will see religion had very little to do with our most profound break throughs and advancements. If it weren't for superstitions, false beliefs, and man made religions, I think we would have been far far far more advanced than we are today. More importantly, there would have been far fewer conflicts if people hadn't made all these different (and at times conflicting) assumptions and then defined them to be true and then decided to die to defend those "beliefs".

 

I have to strongly disagree. What you are proposing is a form of thought eugenism which will hinder progress. You can not expect thought progress without a natural selection of thoughts.