War In The Middle East

[Sassun]

Israel has renounced its membership in the International Federation of Journalists.

 

Israel has asked Germany for help in freeing the hostages.

[Sassun]

"Our own country" as in??

 

There are civilians in Lebanon, 80,000 of whom are Armenians, who are under siege and will probably be bombed soon too. These people cannot just LEAVE.

[Eurocentric]

"Our own country" as in??

 

There are civilians in Lebanon, 80,000 of whom are Armenians, who are under siege and will probably be bombed soon too. These people cannot just LEAVE.

 

I'm sorry but I have to say, why the hell not? There's a pretty good reason to leave, unless they enjoy being a diaspora (a diaspora in a shithole on top of that). Sounds like masochism.

 

Let me add that i'm very sympathetic towards Armenians in Lebanon, I just wish they either move to Armenia and if they're not ready for such a big step then to the US, Canada, Argentina...some place in the new world. Anywhere but the Middle East.

Edited July 20, 2006 by Eurocentric

[Sassun]

Yeah OK, it's always easy to talk (i.e. BS).

 

Like I said before, when Armenia gives us the right to hold dual citizenship we will start weighing moving there. Personally I am not dying to get an Armenian passport, so I will not give up on my Lebanese one to get it, and I don't give a damn about the 10 year passport which will make me a resident alien in - supposedly - my own country. But that's irrelevant, because this thread is about the Middle East, not about dual citizenship or moving to Armenia. Take that debate there.

[Arpa]

This is not the time or the appropriate thread for this.

Dear Euro. You don’t understand!

Lebanon, Beirut is the new Kilikia.

Look at the sectors of the Armenian quarters; Nor Marash, Nor Hajin etc.

In case you didn’t know, Kilikia and Armenia are not necessarily synonymous. History aside, did you know that those in Yerevan speak that “funny” Armenian, and those in Beirut speak that other “funny” Armenian?!

Do you think some day the Beirutsis will learn to say; “Ba, do aberjan, inch es asum”, or the Yerevantsis will learn to say; “Tso aga lan, inch k@ses kor”?

 

===

Let me add that i'm very sympathetic towards Armenians in Lebanon, I just wish they either move to Armenia and if they're not ready for such a big step then to the US, Canada, Argentina...some place in the new world. Anywhere but the Middle East.

Move to Armenia?

Easier said than done. Of course, we can always pick up our rags and move as we have done so often. But, how about “our “ institutions, like schools etc. but, above all our church and Catholicate? How do we move them, do we leave them behind, do we leave the Catholicos behind to rule over the Cedars of Lebanon? Do we move it to Hayastan? Where do we move it to? Oh! How stupid of me?! There are suburbs of Yerevan such as Nor Marash, Nor Aintab, Nor Hajin …. Most importantly, those suburbs of Yerevan are to the east and south, totally separated and isolated of as opposed to Ejmiatsin to the west .

 

You see Euro! You understand beans about (Armenian) politics. :) You may be next to me when it comes to the limits of naivite.

Edited July 20, 2006 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

First of all, this is not a religious conflict. It may appear that way on the surface, but it is first and foremost a real estate dispute, as that is what has initially triggered all of this.

Real estate is the only reason why there is no peace in that part of the world.

The land plan was drawn long time ago even before Henry Kissinger era and has not reached its completion yet. once the plan is complete than we might see peace in there.

[Arpa]

Yeah OK, it's always easy to talk (i.e. BS).

Like I said before, when Armenia gives us the right to hold dual citizenship we will start weighing moving there. Personally I am not dying to get an Armenian passport, so I will not give up on my Lebanese one to get it, and I don't give a damn about the 10 year passport which will make me a resident alien in -

====

Sassun answered so much more eloquently than I ever could.

Indeed. Whoever would relinquish their citizenship in countreis like Lebanon and the US with open access to the world via the ocean, and who would want to live on a blockaded "piece of rock" with no access to the (civilized)world? One can walk from one end to the other end of Yerevan Province in a day and end up either in Turkey, Azerbaijan or Iran. No to menation that other "turkland" Georgia.

[Eurocentric]

This is not the time or the appropriate thread for this.

Dear Euro. You don’t understand!

Lebanon, Beirut is the new Kilikia.

Look at the sectors of the Armenian quarters; Nor Marash, Nor Hajin etc.

In case you didn’t know, Kilikia and Armenia are not necessarily synonymous. History aside, did you know that those in Yerevan speak that “funny” Armenian, and those in Beirut speak that other “funny” Armenian?!

 

Move to Armenia?

Easier said than done. Of course, we can always pick up our rags and move as we have done so often. But, how about “our “ institutions, like schools etc. but, above all our church and Catholicate? How do we move them, do we leave them behind, do we leave the Catholicos behind to rule over the Cedars of Lebanon? Do we move it to Hayastan? Where do we move it to? Oh! How stupid of me?! There are suburbs of Yerevan such as Nor Marash, Nor Aintab, Nor Hajin …. Most importantly, those suburbs of Yerevan are to the east and south, totally separated and isolated of as opposed to Ejmiatsin to the west .

 

You see Euro! You understand beans about (Armenian) politics. :) You may be next to me when it comes to the limits of naivite.

 

 

Point well taken.

[hyethga]

At least take up on the Armenian Government's offers:

 

Click

 

Its bad enough the Israelis have been targeting civilian districts of the town.

[Verginne]

The Israelis better start talking about the irresponsible behaviour of their own leaders. As always, they are the angels and the enemies are the devils who always act irresponsibly. Guess what - the world is taking note of all that is happening, and if you think you can fool the world forever, then you are very, very wrong!

 

You know the Israelis are losing when they start appealing to the "Christian audience" by pointing to the HezbAllah rockets that fell on a "Christian holy city". Like the Jews ever cared about Christianity!

 

That's right, there's plenty of bullet holes in churches and statues, etc. And if yuu are still not convinced, just walk with a cross and wait to be spat upon.

[Sassun]

-3 Israeli soldiers killed.

-2 more Israeli soldiers killed in separate incident, at the soccer field in the southern town of Maroon al-Ras, 7 more injured, and these have been trapped in Lebanon, the Israelis have so far been unable to rescue them.

-A helicopter attempted to rescue the injured but was shot down.

[Arpa]

-3 Israeli soldiers killed.

-2 more Israeli soldiers killed in separate incident, at the soccer field in the southern town of Maroon al-Ras, 7 more injured, and these have been trapped in Lebanon, the Israelis have so far been unable to rescue them.

-A helicopter attempted to rescue the injured but was shot down.

Այսքան չարիք թէ մոռանան մեր որդիք….

How long will it take the Lebanese to forget this?

Of course, when the BIG G happened CNN, ABC, NBC and BBC were only powered by candle light.

How is the world to forget this “genocide” going on in Lebanon recorded in living color video?

Just as in our case when we were the virtual “fifth column”, “collaborating with the Russians”, there is ample evidence that those opposing Israel are also collaborating wit and acting as arms of Syria and Iran.

As we speak the Israeli Ambassador is appealing to the world with words like; “Rocket attacks on the holiest of Christian sites, Nazareth”.

Why does he not say that those “holiest Christian sites” are still standing, and not at the bottom of the sea at TelAviv simply by the grace of those who also have sacred sites there, like the Dome of the Rock, the Holiest Shrine of Islam?

Don’t forget that the Holy Sepulcher, Sb. Harutyun is only a few hundred yards from the Al-Aqsa, and that the key to that Christian site is held by the heirs of a Moslem dynasty.

Do you think the Holy Sepulcher, not to mention Sb. Hakob Vanq would still be standing if it were not for the relatives of those who are firing rockets at that “holiest Christian “sites in Nazareth?

[kakachik77]

Sassun answered so much more eloquently than I ever could.

Indeed. Whoever would relinquish their citizenship in countreis like Lebanon and the US with open access to the world via the ocean, and who would want to live on a blockaded "piece of rock" with no access to the (civilized)world? One can walk from one end to the other end of Yerevan Province in a day and end up either in Turkey, Azerbaijan or Iran. No to menation that other "turkland" Georgia.

 

well aparently in Lebanon you don't even have to walk anywhere to reach that, you just sti in your house and missils will come saying hi, then you don't have to worry about turks or azeris because you will simply be dead. Also a country that is 3 times smaller than Armenian cannot boast about SPACE.

Edited July 20, 2006 by kakachik77

[Eurocentric]

Where are the Christians?

 

Posted: July 18, 2006 By Patrick Buchanan

 

© 2006 Creators Syndicate Inc.

 

When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force

on

Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of

Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.

 

First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran

defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to

acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the

democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to

advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank,

Iraq and Iran.

 

 

Now, Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport

runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges,

roads and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in

subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the

custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.

 

The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a

pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his

democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to

use restraint in its airstrikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the

Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.

 

What Israel is up to was described by its army chief of staff, Lt. Gen.

Dan

Halutz, when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."

 

Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash

the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until

the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army

could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.

 

Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for

the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade

of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax

and customs receipts due the Palestinians.

 

Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the

Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections

and

for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.

 

The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and

Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from

Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers,

captured one, took him back into Gaza and demanded a prisoner

exchange.

 

Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and

parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut

off

electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their

water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer

heat of

the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the

IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.

 

Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to

counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases

from

which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy

land

from which attacks are mounted on her people.

 

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians,

collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something

they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy

violates

international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests.

It is un-American and un-Christian.

 

But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among

Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to

Lebanese

Christians and Muslims?

 

When al-Qaida captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them,

the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why

then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?

 

Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including

Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a

conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?

 

Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins

in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and

pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria

and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.

 

That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That

Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.

 

Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of

the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?

 

Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe

months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk,"

that

he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and

flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that

Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?

 

How much must America pay for the education of this man?

[Verginne]

You're entitled to your opinion. I, for one, have a problem with "supporting" either side of the useless, god-forsaken war. The only victims here are the poor Lebanese civilians, who have somehow become the targets of the terrorists on BOTH sides.

 

How did Lebanese become targets of BOTH sides? They are only targeted by israel.

 

Anyway, I am not saying anyone should support a certain side, just that they absolutely should NOT support israel for all of the obvious reasons.

[Sassun]

I can't believe there is even talk about those "poor Israelis in the north who are suffering". Suffering from what? Did you know that more than 80% of the figures of injuries presented by Israel are "shock" (i.e hysteria) and "treatment for shock"? They have been "receiving" toy bombs whereas Lebanese civilians are being buried under the rubble of entire apartment buildings that are allegedly "terrorist bases".

 

By the way, this post has nothing to do with what vava said. But to respond to vava - Lebanese civilians are not targets of HezbAllah............... how are they targets of HezbAllah "terrorism"?

[vava]

How did Lebanese become targets of BOTH sides? They are only targeted by israel.

 

. But to respond to vava - Lebanese civilians are not targets of HezbAllah............... how are they targets of HezbAllah "terrorism"?

 

There are terrorist who target civilians on both sides. The primary victims of this war are the Lebanese civilians - both at the hands of the over-reactionary Isreali forces, and through the lack of forethought by the Hezbollah and their high-risk strategy of creating war on Lebanese soil from largely civilian centres. If the Hezbollah leadership had any concern as to the safety and well-being of the Lebanese citizenery, their approach would have been different. They either made a major miscalculation (that Israel woudn't retaliate), OR, for them, the Lebanese population are simply pawns to be sacrificed in this 'game' of politics.

Edited July 20, 2006 by vava

[Z'areh]

There are terrorist who target civilians on both sides. The primary victims of this war are the Lebanese civilians - both at the hands of the over-reactionary Isreali forces, and through the lack of forethought by the Hezbollah and their high-risk strategy of creating war on Lebanese soil from largely civilian centres. If the Hezbollah leadership had any concern as to the safety and well-being of the Lebanese citizenery, their approach would have been different. They either made a major miscalculation (that Israel woudn't retaliate), OR, for them, the Lebanese population are simply pawns to be sacrificed in this 'game' of politics.

 

Hezballah is a Lebanese entity, it is a creation of an earlier Israeli occupation (1982) they cannot target themselves in principle. But anyone who has at least a minimal knowledge of Lebanese politics can realize that ethnic/religious based factions can easily outgrow themselves and become a mythical entity (it is very easy in Lebanon to achieve mythical heights). This "sickness" is the primary reason why Lebanese politics is in constant stagnation, not to mention it being the primary reason for the destructive civil war.

 

The Lebanese Shia population is and has always been poorest segment in the Lebanese society. They primarily were involved is farming and agriculture, whereas the Sunni and the Christian segments dealt with business and trade. That is why it was only after the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon that they forced the Shia to emerge as a fighting force, by fighting force we are talking about Kalashnikovs and bullets and not missiles and Tanks.

 

But now this poorest of the lot has been financed to be more powerful and better armed than the Lebanese army or any other faction in Lebanon. With a force like that they were not going to give an inch in Lebanese politics. So to say they don't have outside influence is a mistake. I venture to say that the Sunni segment will assess the situation and see whether Hizballah is going to be weakened or emerge more powerful than ever. I bet on the latter, because the fighting spirit of the Shias is very high an extremely motivated, they will kick Israeli ass just they did in the aftermath of 1982 occupation. Israel might register initial success but slowly they're going to pay a high price in messing with the Shia population.

 

Faced with US permission to destroy Lebanon, this cowardly Israeli act can only give the Shia the resolve to launch more missiles to make the other side realize that casualties will mount if they don’t stop immediately.

 

On a different note, I was glad to hear that Louise Arbour, the high commissioner of the UN Human Rights Council will open a file against groups on BOTH sides for committing war crimes. One has to wait and see if Ms. Arbour will be able to fight against the Jewish factor in North America to continue with or even keep her job.

[DominO123]

On a different note, I was glad to hear that Louise Arbour, the high commissioner of the UN Human Rights Council will open a file against groups on BOTH sides for committing war crimes. One has to wait and see if Ms. Arbour will be able to fight against the Jewish factor in North America to continue with or even keep her job.

 

I don't think the problem would be Jewish facotrs in this cases, as Arbour is not the kind of changing her mind because of some vocal lobbying groups. The problem in this cases would be if she will be backed, which I doubt.

[Sassun]

their high-risk strategy of creating war on Lebanese soil from largely civilian centres.

HezbAllah is not firing at Israel from civilian centers. Had they done so they would have had higher number of casualties since that's all that the Israelis are targeting. Those days are long gone. It has been a call for ground clashes from day one for HezbAllah, and they have launched their rockets from non-civilian "open" areas. The Israelis are perplexed, and all they can do is come and bomb the... airport runways again.... And the latest target was the municipality of Ba'abda..

 

In the latest news, however, 2 Israeli helicopters have crashed. The Israelis claim they collided near Kiryat Shmona. HezbAllah had previously said it had shot down a helicopter....

[Lev7]

Sassun answered so much more eloquently than I ever could.

Indeed. Whoever would relinquish their citizenship in countreis like Lebanon and the US with open access to the world via the ocean, and who would want to live on a blockaded "piece of rock" with no access to the (civilized)world? One can walk from one end to the other end of Yerevan Province in a day and end up either in Turkey, Azerbaijan or Iran. No to menation that other "turkland" Georgia.

 

You know, if every Armenian's mindset was similar to yours, we would not have Armenia at all. Yes, Armenia is landlocked, yes Armenia is surrounded by enemies, yes Armenia does not have sea access, yes Armenia's economy is not so good, but it is a place we all can call home, it is ours, that is the difference. I came to U.S. when I was little, I grew up here, I have a good business here, it is one of the greatest places to live, but still I feel like I am a foreigner here, I can not call this place my home, because my real home is 3000 miles away. And I am planning to go live there and apply the skills that I learned here and hopefully someday Armenia will become a great place to live that even you might consider moving there

Edited July 21, 2006 by Lev7

[Arpa]

You know, if every Armenian's mindset was similar to yours, we would not have Armenia at all. Yes, Armenia is landlocked, yes Armenia is surrounded by enemies, yes Armenia does not have sea access, yes Armenia's economy is not so good, but it is a place we all can call home, it is ours, that is the difference. I came to U.S. when I was little, I grew up here, I have a good business here, it is one of the greatest places to live, but still I feel like I am a foreigner here, I can not call this place my home, because my real home is 3000 miles away. And I am planning to go live there and apply the skills that I learned here and hopefully someday Armenia will become a great place to live that even you might consider moving there

Levon, I love you!

Needless to say that you totally missed my TIC, “tongue in cheek“, a mild form of sarcasm.

Maybe from here on I must label some of my posts with a big S to mean “sarcasm”.

You missed my reference to “access to the ocean”, to the “civilized world” as many Lebanese and US residents value so much. Where do youlive? Not Yerevan, obviously. When are we, you, me, the Lebanese and Syrian Armenians going to resettle and have unfettered access to the “ocean” and the “civilized world“? When we have a land “from sea to shining sea”? Oh (how) beautiful!

Do you the words and music of this? Observe the phrase "From sea to shining sea".

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/b/obfsskis.htm

If you don’t understand my TIC posts, if you can’t read between the lines, then I rest my case.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Arpa

[Lev7]

Levon, I love you!

Needless to say that you totally missed my TIC, “tongue in cheek“, a mild form of sarcasm.

Maybe from here on I must label some of my posts with a big S to mean “sarcasm”.

You missed my reference to “access to the ocean”, to the “civilized world” as many Lebanese and US residents value so much. Where do youlive? Not Yerevan, obviously. When are we, you, me, the Lebanese and Syrian Armenians going to resettle and have unfettered access to the “ocean” and the “civilized world“? When we have a land “from sea to shining sea”? Oh (how) beautiful!

Do you the words and music of this? Observe the phrase "From sea to shining sea".

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/b/obfsskis.htm

If you don’t understand my TIC posts, if you can’t read between the lines, then I rest my case.

 

My apologies then, I mis-uderstood your post

[Eurocentric]

I had a feeling some people will be confused by Arpa's response to my post

[Sassun]

Who said anything about the sea, or civilization for that matter? Who cares about the sea? The Lebanese have a sea and claim to have been the bearers of Phoenician civilization but don't even have a freaking navy! The entire Lebanese "navy" probably comprises... 10 fishing boats!!!