War In The Middle East

[15levels]

So it begins. Military analysts in Israel have been talking for quite a while about the inevidable military confrontation, which could escalate and put the whole region up in flames. They were saying "it will get worst before it gets any better". As I see it, massive use of force of Israel in Gaza which killed many civilians provoked Hizballah to attack Israeli border on the north in bid to divert attention from Gaza. One thing they overlooked, is a simple fact of Israeli military superiority. Israel can handle war on 2 fronts or even more. The problem with Hizballah is that it was given time to prepare for this conflict, since the withdrawal from Lebanon 6 years ago. Israel should have never allowed them to operate freely all this time and now they claim they have 10.000 rockets to hit across the border. So where do we go from here? Airstrikes that cause massive damage and lives of civilians on both sides? In Israel the objective is clear. Hit Hizballah , hit Hizballah hard, force Lebanese government into blaming them for the war noone needs and disarm them. Its hard to predict what will happen, I pray this wont turn into another major conflict, but so far, neither side is prepared to stop shooting.

[Sassun]

If the objective is hitting HezbAllah, they are doing a very poor job at it, a very poor job indeed.

 

50+ civilians killed, many of them children, airport runways bombed, the entire country blockaded. This will only strengthen HezbAllah's support base. Israel ought to know that collective punishment does not quite bring people down on their knees.

[gamavor]

I'm in no way supporter or sympathizer of the terrorists, but Western media often wrongly portrays the civilian casualties as dead terrorists which of course is ridiculous and then they wonder where all the support for the terrorist comes and how in no time from "terrorists” they turn into "freedom fighters", which also became a preferred terminology in the Western media when it comes to Chechen terrorists, only to show us once again the ugly face of the CNN type propaganda machine.

 

The war in the Middle East has no end for one simple reason. Israel, along with all her Arab neighbors refuses to become democratic country. Democracy in Israel means equal civil rights for Arabs and Jews in Israel which ultimately would lead to the end of Israel as a nation-state.

[Sassun]

An update from Beirut,

 

Things are going downhill real fast over here. Over 60 civilians have been killed, most of them children, residential buildings have been bombed, all day we have been watching scenes of children being pulled out from the rubble of buildings. The airport has been closed indefinitely to all traffic, naval and air siege of Lebanon, and a real threat to carpet bomb entire suburbs of Beirut. Evacuation "orders" have already been announced for some suburbs of Beirut where there is high support for HezbAllah among civilian population.

 

More updates soon.

[15levels]

I am just wondering if Hizballah consists of Lebanese or Palestinians who were expelled from Israel 60 years ago. If Lebanese want to independant country, how come they tolerate an army of Hizballah they cant control. Today few in Lebanon question why Hizballah decides on "war or peace" and not Lebanese government. From Israeli point of view, any attack eminating from independant country with international border is a declaration of war. I think Israelis trying to achieve a wider goal with their operation in Lebanon and that is to de-legitimate Hizballah in the eyes of Lebanese people and force them out of the border with Israel. They say if Lebanese wont do it, they will create a buffer zone to prevent katusha launches on the Israeli cities on the north. Hiting Beirut is used as pressure to show that there is no other way, I dont think any sane person on either side would want Israelis to take over Beirut once again. Unfortunately it seems civilians are paying heavy price on both sides, obviously Lebanese are in bigger numbers because they cant return fire on the same scale as Israeli army. I just wonder, it seems Hizbollah has a very large support base among Lebanese, is this true Sassun jan? U live there perhaps you can tell us some more about it... looking forward.

[Sassun]

HezbAllah is purely Lebanese, not Palestinian, it has the support of more than 40% of Lebanese, has democratically elected ministers, and if we didn't have the consociational / proportional representation system, they would have been able to form a majority government and the current government that we have would've been in the opposition.

 

The Lebanese government has failed to take up the cause of the Lebanese prisoners (in the thousands) in Israeli jails, and in the absence of international pressure, there appears to be no choice but to do this. And in doing so, HezbAllah's targets were purely military, until, that is, the Israelis turned it into a strike-the-civilians game.

 

HezbAllah will not be delegitimized in this manner, I can assure you of that. If you go around reading Lebanese blogs, you will see what I mean. While many do not agree with HezbAllah's actions and accuse it of not taking into account the welfare of all Lebanese citizens, Israel's malice (that's what its targetting of innocent civilians, bridges, and airport is) has driven them, more or less, into HezbAllah's arms.

 

Hitting Beirut will close all doors to peaceful negotiation on release of soldiers and release of prisoners in Israeli jails. There are no Israeli plans to enter Lebanon by ground forces, otherwise they would not have targeted bridges. Israel is only attempting to make things worse. The big powers have not - so far - lifted a finger to stop what has been happening. In return for attacks on military targets, which are well within the rules of war and the Geneva Conventions, the Israelis have struck civilian targets, houses, buildings, AMBULANCES, and SCHOOLS.

 

The blockade has thrown the Lebanese into a panic. HUGE line-ups at gas stations, today there were no vegetables in the grocery stores (given that the bridges were targeted), people are stepping on each other to just get into the supermarkets to stock up on food, water distributors are refusing to distribute water to houses and apartments (there is no regular running water in many areas of Lebanon usually) because of diesel shortage. People are moving their families to (relatively?) safe places. Stocking up on candles as it is expected that Israel will surely target the Zouk power plant. All that Israel has done so far are illegal under Geneva Conventions. If might makes right, then HezbAllah will act accordingly too.

 

If collective punishment did not work against Palestinians, I don't see why and how it would work against the Lebanese.

 

Israel should release all Lebanese prisoners, many of whom are identified as HOSTAGES and not POW under Geneva Conventions, since they were CIVILIANS, pull out of Shebaa Farms, and it will have an indefinite ceasefire, which may or may not set the stage for a peace deal in the future. Until then, things will only go downhill for all, and if Israel will take us down, we will all die trying to take it down as well.

 

I was never a supporter of HezbAllah and am not one at the moment either. But Israel has ensured that its actions would only incite more hatred towards it.

 

Like I said before, if Israel's objective is to hit HezbAllah, it is doing all the wrong things.

[Lev7]

I am just speechless how can one country enter into another, starts bombing and the world just watches, this is an act of war and the Lebanese army should retaliate, or at least send a strong message

[15levels]

Sassun, would you die for Nasrallah? Or is Nasrallah Lebanon and you'd die for Lebanon? Its interesting, we are both Armenians, living in 2 countries hostile to one another and our loyalties lie where we are. But I am quite sure I would not be willing to die for Israel.

[15levels]

Few quiestions, Sassun.

 

1st: Would you die for Nasrallah? Or is Nasrallah Lebanon and you'd die for Lebanon? Its interesting, we are both Armenians, living in 2 countries hostile to one another and our loyalties lie where we are. But I am quite sure I would not be willing to die for Israel.

 

2nd: If Hizbollah is in fact Lebanese, then the act of kidnapping of Israeli solders is an act of war against a sovereign state and Lebanese are paying the price for it. Did he consolt with the rest of the country before he declared a war on Israel? Or was he just quietly waiting until the moment is right (Gaza mess and all) to strike? Israel withdrew from Gaza, ending the occupation of it (that was the consensus here, that it was time to end occupation, surely now seen as a big mistake considering the rise of Hamas to power), therefore the firing of Kassams from Gaza into Israel and kidnapping of Israeli solder gave Israel the proper legitimation to retaliate. The response is not proportional, by all means and I can surely say is a war crime. Those responsible for dropping 1000 kilogram bomb on a building in Gaza should be tried in court. However, is firing Katushas on civilian targets not as cruel as bombing bridges?

 

3rd: Nasrallah wants to release all Arab prisoners in Israel, including Hamasniks who, the moment they are free, will take up arms and plan more suicide missions. Israel would never release them, not until there is a comprehensive peace deal, with 2 nations with 2 states. I dont see how is that possible in visible future, do you?

 

4th and last: Are all Lebanese want Israel to disappear from the map? Including you?

[Sassun]

Sassun, would you die for Nasrallah? Or is Nasrallah Lebanon and you'd die for Lebanon? Its interesting, we are both Armenians, living in 2 countries hostile to one another and our loyalties lie where we are. But I am quite sure I would not be willing to die for Israel.

For Nasrallah? No. For Lebanon? Yes. I am Lebanese, and my life is here, my family is here, and if my and my loved ones are threatened, of course. If Israel hits the power plants a humanitarian crisis will set in.

 

Lev7 - there is no Lebanese army except on paper. The Lebanese Air Force consists of 6 helicopters at most, and the Lebanese Navy, probably 10 fishing boats. How can an army like that fight against one of the world's strongest armies? Only a guerrilla force can achieve a measure of success.

[gamavor]

I know it is easier to say rather than to do, but you guys should pack your stuff and move somewhere. Let Jews and Arabs kill each other. It is not our war and has never been.

[Sassun]

Maybe when ROA gives us the right to hold dual citizenship.

[15levels]

Totally agree with Sassun.

[Dave]

I thought the new Armenian constitution allowed dual citizenship.

[Sassun]

Totally agree with Sassun.

Ruben -

I will reply to your other points soon. I am just in a pretty bad frame of mind at the moment and can't really think.

[15levels]

Sassun jan, I hope the storm passes by you and your loved ones. Be strong! These are difficult days, this madness should stop, we dont want to go back 50 years, enough with wars...

[15levels]

Like I said before, if Israel's objective is to hit HezbAllah, it is doing all the wrong things.

 

What would be the right thing to do in your opinion, Sassun?

[vava]

I can say this from my safe vantage point: these transgressions (on both sides) are pointless. No one gains anything - only sorrow & strife. The only "gain" is that the leadership of each side can solidify and further entrench themselves into their current political positions.

 

So I ask, who is *actually* gaining somthing here?

[vava]

Ruben and Sassun, please try to stay safe, I think we all share a common concern for the well-being of yourselves and your families.

[ED]

I can say this from my safe vantage point: these transgressions (on both sides) are pointless. No one gains anything - only sorrow & strife. The only "gain" is that the leadership of each side can solidify and further entrench themselves into their current political positions.

 

So I ask, who is *actually* gaining somthing here?

 

 

nobody Vava, Isreal is sure planting seeds for future generations to deal with wars and misschif

Israel for the past 6 years kidnaped 100's of inocent civiliance from lebanon and no one is talking or taking and action aginst it, they are both humans and deserve equeal attantion.

 

this never ending saga wont end untill US changes its bised stand agains this conflict, and with this neo-con administration, whos members are mostly neo-con jews, wont end but further exclate and ingulp the whole region into war.

 

I blame mostly US forign policy thourds the region and free hand its been givin to Isreal to do what ever she wishes, just today US was the only country to vito UN resolution condeming Isreal, dosent take much to understand the shity forign policy of this neo-cons.

[DominO123]

nobody Vava, Isreal is sure planting seeds for future generations to deal with wars and misschif

Israel for the past 6 years kidnaped 100's of inocent civiliance from lebanon and no one is talking or taking and action aginst it, they are both humans and deserve equeal attantion.

 

this never ending saga wont end untill US changes its bised stand agains this conflict, and with this neo-con administration, whos members are mostly neo-con jews, wont end but further exclate and ingulp the whole region into war.

 

I blame mostly US forign policy thourds the region and free hand its been givin to Isreal to do what ever she wishes, just today US was the only country to vito UN resolution condeming Isreal, dosent take much to understand the shity forign policy of this neo-cons.

 

Edward, the reason of the attack were not those 'hostages', this was rather the pretext, over the last years the Hasballah has been using Israel retreat to organise, Israel has been watching them closely and the next pretext they attacked. What Israel is doing now is simply forcing a more radical change in the Lebanese public opinion to support Hasballah, which has become a parallel army in Lebanon(nothing new here though). The Hasballah was well aware of Israeli intentions for months and were expecting this attack to have their own opportunities, those 'hostages' were the pretext needed by both sides to resume the conflict. It's the airport, it will next be cutting electricity down and of course when Israel dosen't pay a penny for the millions or billions of dollars of damages they have done in Lebanon over the years, they can target any infrastructures they want.

 

Also, the US support to Israel has nothing to do with Jews in the administration, the US and Israeli governments have both the same mentality, an eye for an eye. Israel is targetting the Hasballah, which is on the list of US to do list (in their war against terrorism), here there is nothing surprising to the US support and it is not the first time the US has been the only country to veto, check all the resolutions regarding Palestine and the past occupied regions of Lebanon.

[Dave]

The Israeli army carried out attacks against civilian targets in order to pressure the government to take steps against Hezballah. I think that Israel shouldn't have associated Hezballah with the government of Lebanon, which is largely anti-Syrian and has always asked Hezballah to disarm. The government will not do anything now, because Israeli actions generated anti-Israel sentiment and proved Hezballah's point.

 

It is inevitable. Syria and/or Iran will also be involved soon.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Dave

[phantom22]

Gamavor, Yes, you are correct. If the Israelis create a democratic state, soon the Arabs will have a majority. Lebanon was an oasis, an enclave so to spaek, for Christians in the Middle East. Even Armenians felt that it was their second home, as Christians. The Christian generally have smaller families, educate their young and advance in society. While their are some Moslems who educate their young many have numerous children who they do not educate as much. So eventually Lebanon was no longer a Christian majority country. The same would happen in Israel if Jewish state becomes democratic. If Armenia gave free reign for Moslems to settle, even in small numbers, eventually their would be no Armenian state as the Moslems would overpower the Armenians by having more children.

 

 

I'm in no way supporter or sympathizer of the terrorists, but Western media often wrongly portrays the civilian casualties as dead terrorists which of course is ridiculous and then they wonder where all the support for the terrorist comes and how in no time from "terrorists” they turn into "freedom fighters", which also became a preferred terminology in the Western media when it comes to Chechen terrorists, only to show us once again the ugly face of the CNN type propaganda machine.

 

The war in the Middle East has no end for one simple reason. Israel, along with all her Arab neighbors refuses to become democratic country. Democracy in Israel means equal civil rights for Arabs and Jews in Israel which ultimately would lead to the end of Israel as a nation-state.

[Arpa]

Very interesting debate.

Most of comments are critical of the main actor, the second biggest (small)bully in the region in this tragic drama.

Am I surprised? You’re welcome to search my posts and see what I have said about the subject in many varied threads. What surprises me most, and I find it kind of ironic, not really, I had known it all along, how we have not seen, or in the least seen fewer and fewer posts comparing us to them, how we are so similar to them, how our destiny has been, is and will be parallel. How we should look to them and use them as models. I have, and can probably search and find, where I have commented about how not to use them as models, and how not to wish that we be not in the (combat) boots. It does not take too much observance to see that those combatants in combat boots have not had good night’s sleep since 1948, and that peaceful night seems further and further as we speak. Do wish that for ourselves?

How much smarts does it take to see that that “Nazi” regime is the world’s most fascistic and xenophobic, onlt, perhaps next to the German Nazis and those fascists of Asia Minor. How much does it take to see that those “fascists” of TelAviv and those of Ankara were made for each other. Which of those TelAviv “Nazis‘ ” and the Ankara “fascists‘ “ neighbors love them?

Am I surprised that we have not heard our proponents to view them as “brothers in destiny” and a “model” for us have not spoken in the past few years? Try to coax them or shame them to side with us? Until, of course those “fascists” in TelAviv took their masks down and openly sided with the “Nazis” in Ankara.

Do I blame them?

No. I blame us for being so blind to not see that those two bullies neither of which ha one single friend in the region, friends like the US and other bleeding heart “staunch allies” who live ten thousand miles away don’t count.

Can I blame them for allying, as one pariah to another?

Can you blame Yerevan allying with that other so called “pariah” Tehran? When everyone in the neighborhood is against you, what is the human natural reaction?

If Israel thinks, even for a moment that they can live there in “peace”, I’ll tell how I believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

They should read their own so called history/chemistry to se how they have been repeatedly beaten up by their neighbors since the days of Adam and Eve.

Is there a lesson for us here?

Maybe.

Keep insulting and attacking your neighbors day in and day out and see what you get.

[Arpa]

Besides.

We, Armenians have hardly anything common with those sonabitches.

We are Chrsitians they are not. We speak an IndoEurpean dialect, they don't.

We have lived on our native lands since the dawn of civilization, they have not.

Maybe they should repeat history and move, diperse (diaspora)into the Roman Empire and resettle in places liek Germany, Russia and beyond where the natives "love" them.