THOTH

Some more links to Russian atrocities in Chechnya: http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/06/chech0602.htm Human Rights Watch (note also discusses hostage situation): http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/ http://www.freelists.org/archives/news/03-...2/msg00041.html A somewhat biased (Muslim viewpoint) but still very nice history of Russian historical involvement in Chechnya: http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq5.html

Well Sen_Vahan - I never said there was a comparison with the Chechen conflict and the Genocide of Armenians - neither did I say that Aa Genocide was occuring per se in Chechnya. However you must be blind and very selective in what you will bewlieve if you think the Russians are saint in Chechnya - WAR HAS NO RULES FOR RUSSIAN FORCES BATTLING CHECHEN REBELS Troops admit committing atrocities against guerrillas and civilians. It's part of the military culture of impunity, they say. But many now have troubled consciences. By MAURA REYNOLDS Times Staff Writer Los Angeles Times, Sunday, 17 Sept, MOSCOW: They call it bespredel--literally, "no limits." It means acting outside the rules, violently and with impunity. It translates as "excesses" or "atrocities." It's the term Russian soldiers use to describe their actions in Chechnya. "Without bespredel, we'll get nowhere in Chechnya," a 21-year-old conscript explained. "We have to be cruel to them. Otherwise, we'll achieve nothing." Since Russia launched a new war against separatist rebels in its republic of Chechnya a year ago, Russian and Western human rights organizations have collected thousands of pages of testimony from victims about human rights abuses committed by Russian servicemen against Chechen civilians and suspected rebel fighters. To hear the other side of the story, a Times reporter traveled to more than half a dozen regions around Russia and interviewed more than two dozen Russian servicemen returning from the war front. What they recounted largely matches the picture painted in the human rights reports: The men freely acknowledge that acts considered war crimes under international law not only take place but are also commonplace. In fact, most admitted committing such acts themselves--everything from looting to summary executions to torture. "There was bespredel all the time," one 35-year-old soldier said. "You can't let it get to you." The servicemen say atrocities aren't directly ordered from above; instead, they result from a Russian military culture that glorifies ardor in battle, portrays the enemy as inhuman and has no effective system of accountability. "Your army is based on professionalism," said a 27-year-old paratrooper who served alongside U.S. troops as a peacekeeper in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "Our army is based on fervor." Russian officials, including the Kremlin's war spokesman, Sergei V. Yastrzhembsky, have criticized the human rights reports, saying they are riddled with rumor and rebel propaganda. Officials have sometimes blamed reported atrocities on what they describe as rebel fighters dressed as Russian soldiers. But they acknowledge that some human rights violations do occur and say they are taking steps to curb them. "[Chechens] are Russian citizens, for whose sake the operation was undertaken in the first place," Yastrzhembsky said in an interview. "They should be treated according to the same laws as in the rest of Russia. Any violation, regardless of who commits it, must be reviewed by the procurator [investigating magistrate] and the guilty parties should be punished." That may be the Kremlin's official position, but servicemen say things are different on the ground. In part because of media coverage of Chechen slave-trading, torture and beheadings, the soldiers believe that the enemy is guilty of far worse atrocities. Although they know that executions and other human rights violations are wrong, they also consider them an unavoidable--even necessary--part of waging war, especially against such a foe. In their view, human rights workers and other critics are simply squeamish about the real nature of war. "What rules? What Geneva Conventions? What difference does it make if Russia has signed them?" said a 25-year-old army officer. "I didn't sign them, none of my friends signed them. . . . In Russia, these rules don't work." Perhaps most important, the servicemen described a pervasive and powerful culture of impunity in the Russian armed forces. They believe that authorities say one thing in public but deliberately turn a blind eye to many war crimes. A few even said investigators helped cover up such atrocities. Right or wrong, the soldiers are confident that authorities will make no serious effort to investigate war zone misconduct. "You don't make it obvious, and they don't look too hard," another 21-year-old conscript said. "Everyone understands that's the way it works." Many of the servicemen admitted having troubled consciences. But like a mantra, most repeated what they had been taught--that whether one likes it or not, going to war means acting bespredel. "What kind of human rights can there be in wartime?" said a 31-year-old police commando. "It's fine to violate human rights within certain limits." http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/russ...atrocities.html

I seem to recall that a few months back Kocharian issued a statement specifically stating that Armenian has no land claims against Turkey relating in any way to the Genocide. I searched around a bit to find this statement but have not come accross it. Is anyone else here aware of this statement or better yet if you have access to a copy please post here. Let us take this oppurtunity to put Turkish fears to rest!

OK - let me make one thing very clear (and please read both of my first two posts in this thread) - I sympathyse with the Chechens both becasue of their terrible "leadership" and because of the Russian heavy handed military campign. They are caught in the middle. Are all Checehns guilty - including women and children - because of the actions of some gansters? Anyone who cannot see this to me has the attitude that a nation is free to punish all who belong to a certain etyhnic group or such because of transgressions of a few. If any of you believe this then you should quit crying about the Turks because your position is entirely consitentr with theirs!

I sympathise with the common people who are caught up in this war. I understand who the Chechen leadership is and I know somewhat about their (criminal) diapora. I also understand how the Chechens started this whole business up again - but that does not stop me for feling for the people who are suffering.

Bell - While I too greatly sympathyze with the Chechen people in their plight - you must admit thay have been saddled with some pretty bad leadership. (Most of) These guys are no better then terrorists and/or gangsters. Its a shame really - because I would like to see the Russians fully out of the Caucuses (of course only after it can be assured that Turkey would not take advantage...and thats the rub). Anyway - dont be to hard on Eduard - he is just reposting frm a Russian account. Its informational..and relevant. Sometimes I think it is hard to know what position to take in this one...

quote:Originally posted by Sip:Oh and I don't think I could ever take anyone seriously, who starts off by something like: "... how to deal with the x problem" where x is any type of a generalization such as Jew, Turk, Angolian, etc ... That immediately tells me that the person asking the question either has no clue, or is extremely biased in one way or another, therefore any "discussion" is rather meaningless. Of course. Initially I didn't know who this guy was - but it was readily apparent that he was a generalizing racist type at the very least. "You Armenians" etc etc. These people can't quite understand how they come accross - how they give themselves away...

OK - I see now. You should lok at the reference thread on the genocide forum. Kaan surfaces a number of issues that we have been seeing lately that are serious ones for us to counter. Though they are false - they are presented in such a way that the uniformed mey see them as believable. Lately I have noticed an increased sophistication in the presentations of ATAA (being cut & pasted by these Kaan types all over the internet). It is important that we are able to counter these allegations, false and half-truth statements with fact. We are lucky to have a Domino who has dons some really incredible research. (If only his English ewas a bit better and he could stay out of the name calling/emotional replys [difficult I know] - but he has improved in the former tremedously - you should have seen his level of English several years ago - he made great points but decifering them was always a chore - LOL).

Sip - I don't see this as a joking matter. Well Kaan is a bit of a joke - but his accusations and the continued Turkish campaign of denail are very serious - and are hurtful to me and to most Armenians I should think. He in particular (along with his racist cronies at ATAA) have gone out of their way to very selectively paint a distorted and untrue picture and claim that they have facts. Domino has done a wonderful job these past several years researching these issues and bringing good data to oppose these denialist types (where most Armenians rely more on emotion and less on comprehensive facts). Domino's diligent work should be applauded by all Armenians. What he does is very serious - of the highest order - IMO. [ October 31, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Sen_Vahan - right on the money! Hovsep - I cannot agree with you here my friend. Do you reliae that in some parts people say the same things about Armenians? Just because our two peoples are industrious, educated and are successful - largely due to the results of a sort of Darwinian process through history...welll others get jealous - or don't understand our insular, internal looking ways. Yes, i see Jews and Armenias as very similar sorts of people who have been persecuted similarly and who hold similar values - its a shame that those of us in each group seem to be more concerned with only ourselves and not the larger picture - thus (some) Jews seek exclusivisity for their genocide and (some) Armenians harbor racist attitudes towards jews. Quite a shmae really.

Kaan - is this an example of your level of seriousness (From the Genocide forum): Kaan: "You are wrong. There was Malta Tribunals, go to Britain and Malta for the original evidences. Although I asked the Queen to give me the original papers and told her I would send them to you, she told me she couldn't give them to anyone, but she added it was free to study in the British archives and you are invited to study the documents."

Kaan - I am looking over your thread on the Genocide forum. You make many assertions with no evidence/proof - they are just that - assertions - and thay are by and large entirely incorrect. You are not a person to be taken seriously.

I laugh at people like this Kaan who come onto Armenian sites (or post in Turkish sites) with all of this "evidence" that nothing untoward happened to Armenians or that it was Kurds and not Turks or such. Sure - I can understand those Turks who have not the capacilty/inclination to investigate further being ignorant on the issue and beleiving the State propoganda - but when someone (a Turk) comes on these forums and claims he has "evidence" that (what all who know understand) is supposedly untrue - well - as I said - I just have to laugh. I mean please - the "evidence" is so overwhelming and from so many sources that I am afraid - dear Kaan - you haven't much of a leg to stand on. But by all means - present your case - amuse us some more...

Cenephakan - I must insist - you first.

MJ - what a perfect answer...I think I will frame it (really seriously!) It ia a great shame to me how some (certain) Armenians have been so vocal on the internet in cvarious places with their anti-Jewish (hate) rantings. They harm us greatly IMO - and they are totally without a clue - consumed in their hate and conspiratoral theory thinking.

Arpa - interesting post. Indeed this issue of the definition of "brethren"...leaves one to wonder...as well as references to the "holy father" - etc. And the trinity concept far pre-dates christianity as you have indicated...same with the concept of "immaculate conception" - which leeds one to wonder - brother or half-brother...and just what is Mary's status vis a vis Joseph (ie - the old question [on this forum] of the issue of virginity...though I guess they were married previously...which then begs another question...or would, if I was the husband.... - LOL!) And what about this guy? - quote:Originally posted by Sip:James Christ ...makes me think of "Jack Schitt"...LOL http://home.pacbell.net/diana_do/knowjack.htm ...enjoy!

Seems like you should be asking: "Is God the Devil"...at least this is what these lyric exerpts seem to imply - for what they are worth...actually there is a tune on the first CD that would indicate that they are pagans. That is not the same as Satanists IMO. My (limited) experience with Satanists (no sacrifice baby types or such) is that they are mainly hedonists and are reletively harmless. I fear the typical evangelical (we are in the end times - etc) type much more - they are really wacko - IMO....

Yeah - agree to all of the above. Somehow though my suggestion of printing t-shirts with a target on them (& f-you sniper!) didn't generate much laughter the other day...and I couldn't convince a collegue to sit outside on the sidewalk area of a restaraunt for lunch the other day...(and it was still warm enough to do so) - he insisted on eating inside (and so did everyone else in the entire area as far as I could tell) Sure its all (way, way) overblown - but a certain amount of anxiety is understandable... I will be spending a good deal of my day tomorrow in (or very close to) the very areas mentioned...I weave in and out of nearly all the areas "affected" and it hasn't changed my routine one bit. My kids are all ancey because school keeps them inside though - so even though its colder now - I've made sure to play outside with them. BTW Sip - just what will you do for a RB this week? LOL (my picking up Zeroe had nothing to do with you though...I picked him up in 2 leagues...and I need a [decent/dependable] fill in runner as well. I just noticed that you don't have much back-up...

Tigrannes - what is your problem.....? Dillon is on a bye (dumdf*ck!)....playing (whoever) - would have meant a victory (a win for the Armenians!)....is this how you present yourself as an Armenian? Don't you understand that I am serious here (though quite drunk I do admit)...I should be victorious alrezdy,,,,though it will happen - my team is strong...as am I....what is your excuse! [ October 20, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Gurdjieff’s Aphorisms inscribed in a special script above the walls of the Study House at the Prieuré 1)Like what “it” does not like. 2)The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do. 3)The worse the conditions of life the more productive the work, always provided you remember the work. 4)Remember yourself always and everywhere. 5)Remember you come here having already understood the necessity of struggling with yourself—only with yourself. Therefore thank everyone who gives you the opportunity. 6)Here we can only direct and create conditions, but not help. 7)Know that this house can be useful only to those who have recognized their nothingness and who believe in the possibility of changing. 8)If you already know it is bad and do it, you commit a sin difficult to redress. 9)The chief means of happiness in this life is the ability to consider externally always, internally never. 10)Do not love art with your feelings. 11)A true sign of a good man is if he loves his father and mother. 12)Judge others by yourself and you will rarely be mistaken. 13)Only help him who is not an idler. 14)Respect every religion. 15)I love him who loves work. 16)We can only strive to be able to be Christians. 17)Don't judge a man by the tales of others. 18)Consider what people think of you—not what they say. 19)Take the understanding of the East and the knowledge of the West—and then seek. 20)Only he who can take care of what belongs to others may have his own. 21)Only conscious suffering has any sense. 22)It is better to be temporarily an egoist than never to be just. 23)Practice love first on animals, they are more sensitive. 24)By teaching others you will learn yourself. 25)Remember that here work is not for work’s sake but is only a means. 26)Only he can be just who is able to put himself in the position of others. 27)If you have not by nature a critical mind your staying here is useless. 28)He who has freed himself of the disease of “tomorrow” has a chance to attain what he came here for. 29)Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo. 30)Rest comes not from the quantity but from the quality of sleep. 31)Sleep little without regret. 32)The energy spent on active inner work is then and there transformed into a fresh supply, but that spent on passive work is lost for ever. 33)One of the best means for arousing the wish to work on yourself is to realize that you may die at any moment. But first you must learn how to keep it in mind. 34)Conscious love evokes the same in response. Emotional love evokes the opposite. Physical love depends on type and polarity. 35)Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness. 36)Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness. 37)Man is given a definite number of experiences—economizing them, he prolongs his life. 38)Here there are neither Russians nor English, Jews nor Christians, but only those who pursue one aim—to be able to be. Copyright © 1924 G. I. Gurdjieff

And of course we do have one of our own (fillostofers)...Gurdjieff And here is one by him for Sip: THERE DO EXIST ENQUIRING MINDS, which long for the truth of the heart, seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into themselves. If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what his place is in the world around him. For without this knowledge, he will have no focal point in his search. Socrates’ words, “Know thyself” remain for all those who seek true knowledge and being. http://www.gurdjieff.org/ [ October 18, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Rubo, hasmiek - very good/appropriate comments. And Boghos - funny "There are two kinds of existentialists; first, those who are Christian...and on the other hand the atheistic existentialists, among whom...I class myself. What they have in common is that they think that existence precedes essence, or, if you prefer, that subjectivity must be the turning point." John Paul Sartre ...and always remember - its a conscious choice to live your life "Authentically"... For more info (very briefly): http://www.connect.net/ron/sartre.html Or somewhat humourous: http://icemcfd.com/wayne/sartre-cookbook.html

quote:Originally posted by Sip:

Sip - Yeah - congrats on the 124! (I had noticed BTW)...and nipping at my heals there at 4-2. Still, now that Faulk has awoken I have few worries (still I could use a reliable QB - i think I have used a different one each game...) Commitments...a blessing and a curse perhaps... Doing nothing...can sometimes best be appreciated by....well....I think you can figure it out...

quote:Originally posted by Sip:First of all, let me say that this may sound like a depressing post, but it really is NOT. Well sure it is in a sense - I mean look what you have done to poor Azat... quote:Originally posted by Sip:I want you to know I am quite happy in general and very content with life! I basically have all (and more) than I ever wanted or imagined I could have, so that is what really brings up the questions below. Why are you lying to us? quote:Originally posted by Sip:Ok, having said that, the question is, why even bother with life? Sure, it feels great. Sure you get to do a lot of stuff that you couldn't do if you weren't alive. But so what? It is fairly obvious that it doesn't really matter what you do ... you will end up dead. True - no one gets out alive. Well - is a tough one to answer - and ultimatly you must provide your own answer. It is clear however that you are not a parent. Additionaly isn't trying to beat my team in fantasy football reason enough? quote:Originally posted by Sip: There is also another advantage of not doing anything (for those that may bring the bible into this) ... if you don't do anything, then you can't be a bad person ... therefore you can't really go to hell now, can you? Depends on the particualr doctrine I think...ie concept of original sin, acceptance of jesus into your heart, being one of the chosen 400...etc - bottom line, if there is such a place, neither you nor most anyones chances of avoiding it are that good...hypocrites nearly all... Oh and BTW as you mentioning doing nothing (and the virtue of such) - have you checked out Daoism further? quote:Originally posted by Sip:I fully realize that this is the same old human existential meaning of life question which really has no answer ... but seeing that so many on this forum have soooo much energy sometimes, get so bent out of shape when things aren't going their way, tend to fight and argue and insult and put each other down ... I can't help but ask ... what is really your motivation? What keeps you going? Why do stuff? Why care about stuff? Why torture ourselves to somehow make things "better" when in the end, it does NOT matter at all in the Universe! You cannot say that last sentence with certainty. As for the rest I'll stand aside and let the zealots answer for you. quote:Originally posted by Sip:(or do you disagree with my last statement ...) I neither agree or disagree. I don't know the answer. I find value/worth in other concerns however - one of which is attempting to influence folks to think (and act) a little broader. Also - I really do like life..people, places, things, family, football, wine, music, sex, doing things for others/making them happy, etc etc - are these things not reaon enough? Is being meaningful to others not reason enough?