THOTH

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:

quote:Originally posted by MJ:

MJ/Alpha - I am a second generation Armenian-American who was not brought up in the Armenian community (outside of my extended family). Further - my Armenian roots are clearly Ottoman-Armenian - with very strong ties to cosmoploitan Istanbul (and not parochial Eastern Armenia) - so I know I don't speak for most (involved) Diasporan Armenians - and don't speak Armenian either (basically not at all)...yet still I have a care for the doings of Armenia (and of Armenians throughout the world)- not as my nation per se - because that is clearly the USA - and not even fully as my "people" (though it is mostly this) - but I do care (and have contributed in various ways) - and I do certainly view myself (most proudly [exactly why perhaps I do not even know myself] as Armenian). Still Armenia is not my country - but I see it as a country of my (perhaps distant) cousins...in fact most of you all I see less as my immediate family as I do some relations who have perhaps grown and lived in different parts with disserent ways etc. I mean I still love all of you guys/gals and feel a great affinity (one reason why I'm here I guess) - but to some extent this only goes so far. In fact I see my true "family" - my roots (from Istanbul and Ottoman times) as lost - forever - and there is no choice in my mind but to begin anew (of course this is also my reality). Still - all of this being said I am pained by the divisons between Armenia and the Diaspora (and within the Diaspora) - and am pained and worried for Armenia in general. I think that we (as an Armenian people) could be so much more - (of a cohesive force/community/nation then we are now). But fundementally we lack leaders with any vision to pass on to us lesser mortals (or perhaps Armenians are not so easily fooled [and stubbron as hell] thus are not likely to follow such a leader even if such a one came along) - our loss really...anyway just some drunken musings...('96 Bordeaux - drinking well these days...)

Nice comments Ali - I agree completely (all of what you said - but specifically that the more permiscous gals are more fun)...and at the same time I do not think that they necessarily would make lesser wives or mothers - not at all - these are pretty much independent attributes IMO. And if a gal wishes to "save herself for marraige" or such - thats OK too - but in fact i really feel sorry for her - that she has bought into this whole idea that sex is somehow bad and/or wrong - and that she must remain chaiste while such is not questioned for the male. And while I understand this concept of only giving yourself to one - yadda yadda yadda - I'm sorry I can't help but think that in general its complete bullshit. Life - and the variety of it and experiences - most assuradly including sex, intamacy and love - need not - and in fact I argue should not - be confined to just a single relationship. If so - well OK - but I think one really misses out...and again - we need more love (and sex) in this world - not less - for real (but by this I do not mean titilation and cheap stuff - there is quite enough of that) - but real love of other people and freer attitudes concerning sexual relations and norms. Doe sthis make any sense (it seems very obvious to me - though I know many will see this differently...) LOL Oh and hagarag - I agree with your comments too! [ October 10, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Azat:For you see now you could marry a virgin and she still could have been a slut prior to you. Worse yet - perhaps she was a man! LOL

Don't know about any of this Ali - but when I was in Turkey in 1992 I bought some very nice glzed tiles (and plates & such)in kütahya...and had a pleasent time with the shopkeeper as I recall (he had Raki!) LOL. I know some Armenians locally here that do fantasitc tile work. They were originally from Jeruslem where I understand they were quite famous 0- and no wonder - great stuff!

quote:Originally posted by nairi:Dear Marco, I didn't mean to get personal, but I'm still interested to know how you expect a virgin to trust you after you've had so many relationships. Like Steve (bellthecat) said, why did you break off such a beautiful moment with that Greek girl? Why weren't you able to trust her? In my case, there IS a reason why my boyfriend and I broke up; and I think most serious relationships usually end like that: mutually. Personally, I don't see myself as a person who has a lost love. However, you are right in asserting that women may become pickier after they've had one or more serious relationships. But I consider this normal. Once you're about to break up with the person you thought you'd be with for the rest of your life, you begin to realize that "love at first sight" and "marrying without knowing each other", simply don't work in most cases. I'm trying to avoid a similar situation now. Do you think there's something wrong with that? Good points Nairi - (yeah Marco - how can they trust you & where you have been? LOL) And hope everything works out for you Nairi - seems like you would make someone a very good partner one day! Cheer up now - it may look bleak now - but with your head on your shoulders and a good attitude I'm sure you will meet some guy who will be great for you!

quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by THOTH:So now are you/would you ever marry her? I would ... but the state of California somehow seems to frown upon human/computer types of marriages. I also don't think I could then claim my laptops as my dependents on taxes LOL - well I'm sorry to hear you are being discriminated like this. Perhaps you need to start a society/movement - call it : "Man-Machine Interface" - and lobby for the right to date/marry etc your computer - and for an end to all discriminatory practices against Man-machine couples! LOL (or women-machine I guess....but there is already quite a bit of that! [vibe] - LOL) QUOTE]Originally posted by Sip: quote: quote:... ideally people would need no rules, no laws, no restrictions because they would be mature and intelligent, and caring enough of other folks to not do things to hurt others - etc - but this is certainly the ideal - and we are far from this...I have actually been pondering that topic for a few weeks (it came about once we had the discussion on the need for religeon in a civilized society)... Anyhoot... my current thinking is that I do not agree with you. I think in any society, explicit rules must always exist. The problems arises when your actions will benefit some and hurt others (it's bound to happen sooner or later). So which group do you pick? How do you resolve conflicts of interest? Suppose I am a very caring, intelligent human being. How do I decide, i.e. which metric do I use, to decide between alternative actions? Egoistic measures (my own happiness)? Utilitarian goals (happiness of the whole)? Or any combination of those? What if I decide to do what Kant says and decide on my actions based on the fact that "what if everyone did what I am doing" type of mentality? Sure - these are difficult issues - but my contention - "no rules" - is but an ideal - and not one that will ever be realized. It assumes that humans are smart, sensitive, undestanding etc enough to make the right choices - not just for themselves - but for everyone. It will never happen. QUOTE]Originally posted by Sip: quote:It is clear to me that none of those work all the time. Sometimes we need to make sure that we give advantage to minorities to make up for their lack of representation in the democratic process (assuming you think democracy is the way to go) ... Anyway, this is definitely a whole different topic for a whole different thread. agreed QUOTE]Originally posted by Sip: quote:By the way, nice job with Blue Thunder. Looks like you showed him who is BOSS Yeah - its about time I had a nice clean win. Hard to believe that I am 4-1 now! And without my "stud" - Faulk doing much. If he catches on fire there will be no stopping me...if...BTW - nice pick-up with Maddox against the Saints - dis you consult your girlfriend (computer) on that one? LOL

quote:Originally posted by Sip: (all in joking of course) And Accelerated - "no rules" - hm - not so sure...le tme just say that ideally people would need no rules, no laws, no restrictions because they would be mature and intelligent, and caring enough of other folks to not do things to hurt others - etc - but this is certainly the ideal - and we are far from this...

Harut - perhaps we are less far apart in our thinking then...well then I would ever have thought...LOL - still there is (much) more to this virginity issue then the narrow view...and marriage (in the West) just isn't what it used to be...(in general) Seaphan - exactly! (didn't know you were so smart boy! ...but perhaps I did..) Azat - yeah - had seen this one before (possibly posted by you? ) Very funny - and so very true I think..

quote:Originally posted by Harut:we say people evolve, moving the line up and down to adjust. correct. but it's wrong to push people to evolve faster than the natural pace. it would harm the society. it would put the society in the danger of losing its integrity, its values, everything they believe in, everything they've got. Yes i see your argument...its the 1860s - my how can we ask all those SOutherners to give up slavery - it will just mess up everything for them - "it would put the society in the danger of losing its integrity, its values, everything they believe in, everything they've got." etc Remember all of therse arguments that I and others have been making have not been so much directed at things in "the old country" - but are largely responsive to charges by young ultra conservative Armenians (from the West) - who are attacking accepted Weatern ways... quote:Originally posted by Harut:we don't go to the jugles of amoson and say to the people living there "ok, stop acting foolish. stop making that sily hole in your lips. put down that axe. wear some suit and start making some investments in the market." Well this certainly has been done...and its wrong of course. Funny thing how it ussually has been Christian groups trying to impose their ways on others and claiming that anything but their way is Satanisitc and such. So who is the primative I ask? [ October 05, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Whats your point here? I see nothing wrong with this at all. Whats wrong with nudity? Who does it hurt? etc Of course its not likely to quite come to this (just yet) because too many of us - like yourself - actually see that there is some problem with your scenario...ie have not yet matured beyond some of our primative taboos & the like...IMO quote:Originally posted by Harut:to those of modern mentality. imagine this... in a couple of years we learn that in, let's say, France people started appearing in public totaled naked, because they think that it is the most natural way of life. they justify it by uncomprehendable [to us] explanations that it is very natural to show off your body parts, it is the most democratic way of life letting people express themselves, there is nothing wrong letting other people enjoy your looks and vis versa, blah blah blah.... now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and then, we learn that some people in US also started practicing that way of life. you get worried (maybe not, i don't know). then, few days later, you see your doughter/sister just about to exit the house totally naked. now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and then, you start to make a conversation with her. and she responses that it is her life, and she does howevery she finds it to be the best for her. and she thinks this is the best way for her to express herself and the best way to satisfy her natural needs of showing off her body. now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and, what would you do then? just let her go, because that is what makes her happy?

I second TB's comments - right on the mark/always impressive - as usual. Don't worry MJ - there will always be legitimate times to bash hagarag (and like most of his type [not saying all bad mind you - not at all - in fact i agree with his points being made quite often] they tend to do more self-inflicted damage then can be done to them by an outside party. And really MJ - belaboring the issue so really makes you look mean (and just well - bored or something) - can't be that bad can it?

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:all the 'good ones' seem to be taken . Like I was at an engagement last night and there was this hottie there. Anyhow after spending a bit of time with her (and getting a photo of her stitting on my lap ), I found out from the host that she was 'taken'. First mistake - assuming that the hot/hottest loking gals are either the best time (short term) or best partners (long term) - I think this is ussually not the cae on both counts...So don't waste your time with these gals (unless of course they show interest in you - always nice) - instad make conversation with all - and if you are lucky you will hit the right wavelength with one (or perhaps more) and here you are likely to have the most luck...and looks really aren't all that important - within reason of course...they really aren't...(and if you think they are I believe that your priorities are not ideal...) quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:This morning though, I was cursing myself for at least not giving her my number, and I cant get her out of my mind.....its like torture Wrong (2nd mistake) - if already "taken" your number would just have been thrown away....you needed to really make an impression if you were to have any chance at all...perhaps a kiss and caress (if your good...and not necessarily on the lips), and that certain look/attitude (yeah babe - I know my stuff and your missing out by not taking advantage...etc) or some other spontanious gesture - surprise her - and be foreword - make it clear that you want it/her and that you know what your about...or even, perhaps, a direct proposition...of course much depends on the circumstances (ie - how much she has had to drink...LOL)

This whole Huchnack thing is far overplayed. Obviously their methods were despicable - but besides some killings and making a good excuse for the CUP racists - any actual impact of their activites was quite minimal. It should be acknoledged certainly (but for what it was). I find it funny though that many Turks who are somewhat more informed on the Genocide seem to want to keep coming back to these activities of (a very few) Armenian gangs as legitimate justification for Turkish anger, fear and reprisal - (but what of the even more numourous Muslim ones who preyed on innocent citizens during this period?). The facts are that these activities were basicaly inconsiquential - but provided a convinient excuzse - then and now.

Sip & Hagarag - exactly. All this purity talk. women on a pedestal (can't work, drive, socialize with males, express themselves - etc etc) and such is just an excuse for males who lack self-confidence with women and/or who wish for a system where they get to be boss and "own" the women, essentially - as their property. Its sad really - most sad... quote:Originally posted by Sip:You know Hagarag, that makes perfect sense to me now. Unfortunately, for some reason, I was fooled for a while with this nice story about raising childeren, wonderful trusting relationships, and purity of character ... but that's exactly what it comes down to ... like buying a new car as opposed to a used one (or a shoe ) It's perfectly clear to me now!!! I am just mad that it took me so long to see it <img border="0" alt="[angry]" title="" src="smilies/angry.gif" /> I just wish these guys would come out and say it the way it is, as opposed to sugar coating it for fools like me!

Munzur - most excellent. What a great story - and you seem very well equipped for this task. I don't know what I might do to furthur assist you - but I am very interested in how this project of yours progresses and the results you achieve. I ask that you post as much as possible here to inform/involve us and hopefully we here can provide some useful input.

Munzur - most excellent to hear of your effort. Before any suggestions perhaps you should enlighten us as to your current degree of knowledge concerning the Armenian Genocide (I assume you are not refeering to some "so-called" Turkish Genocide). Please enlighten us to your thinking - why do you care, how much do you know (or think that you know) and what do you actually hope to accomplish. I would concern yourself with histoy of the Ottoman Empire - particualrly concerning the minorites and the problems of the end of Empire - include as well attitudes of Turks/Muslims towards non-Muslim minorites and laws & customs etc. Then you should look at the Abdul Hamid period & masacres, rise of CUP (ideology and practical considerations), rise of nationalism in general (in the region), Armenian efforts at greater rights within the system and efforts by student groups etc to stir rebellion (and how very limited this effort actually was...), then you must consider CUP interal politics and revolutionary political swings, military and economic circumstances in the Empire, influx of refugees, build up of resentment/scapegoating of Armenians - and then of course the planning, evolution, circumstances and methods of carrying out the genocide - who was involved, why, how and what were the gains (by the Turks - economic-political etc), then the attempts at cover up, the eyewitnesses of all types and documentation, the Post war military tribunals then the rise of Attaturk (and completing the job - with the Armenians and other Christian minorites...check out the last days of Smyrna for instance). And of course the evolution of denial - dfrom this period to the present - and a study of collective Turkish amnesia. That should keep you busy for a while (for perhaps a lifetime). I could perhaps erecommend a reading list to get you started - though these already exist on different Genocide web sites I think. Good luck - keep us posted.

What a worthless thread...

Marco - its too bad for you that your completly irrational and unfounded predjudices have let what was probably a perfectly good one - and likely some fine times and who knows what more -completely ellude you. But I am feeling good for her that she escaped you...

Let me say that I am glad to see some other viewpoints here besides Tigrannes (his schtick is getting a bit old really). Let me also say that I understand why there is a special quality to be exclusivly devoted to one other - sexually or otherwise - etc etc (and the virgin thing is part of this...but don't then both partners have to be vigins - no double standard?) - and this is a good thing (for the most part - still eventual compatability issues & such)- but it is not either the do all and end all - nor does/will it work for everyone. We have to be open to the fact that sexual roles and definitions of families and all sorts of things are changing - just as we are changing as humans. Life is not static - particualrly with the rate of societal change that is responsive to the (increasing) rate of environmental change (technology etc for better or worse). It is unrealistic to expect things to remain as they always have been - and in fact the "old model" which may have worked OK (but was never perfect) - just can't cut it any more (for everyone) - and ultimatly we just have to accept this...or basically go the way of the dinosaur. You or I may not like it (and belive it or not I view myself as conservative/resistant to change in a very many ways...so often this sort of thing saddens me - though less with this case [sexual relations/role of females...etc] then other things) - but what can be done?) And Seaphen - interestng link (actually I am familiar with this colomn - though only fairly recently). #1: Yeah - never talk about it again to the 14 year old girl - is this ideal parenting? - LOL. If I were her mother - since she obviously has some interest in the item and its use - etc. I think I would provide some instruction and explanation and perhaps even give it to her as a present. Really - I'm entirely serious and I believe that it would be the right thing to do (or a right thing to do). Its not like she will suddenly forget about it and ignore her emerging physical needs/desires. But a parent who can communicate with their child can make sure they understand these changes etc and can properly deal with them. Besides it (masturbation)is great fun and does no one any harm (and she is going to do it anyway - right?). (of course there are some other issues involved that must also be dealt with - boys - their proper management & such)... I think the second one was answered most properly. LOL. Hey - don't ask/expect your g/f etc to do things you are not willing to do (to her) yourself (in the ballpark). #3 - typical unfortunatly. Some times I wonder if people really know what sex is. I ceertainly know what its not - and what its not is attitudes like the guy in #3 has....boring #4 - feel sorry for all concerned. Frankly I can't relate to the guy personally - sounds like he has a good thing going - and maybe he could make some arrangement with his wife (to date [guys] outside of marraige?)- who knows? (lots of issues of course) But its too bad really that he is so geneder concious - eh? What ever happened to love the one your with? - LOL.. (hows that for a conservative answer? I'm looking for Damien's counter - as I think I know what he would say to this...BTW where are he & outdoor gal...they both seem to have disapeared...

Boghos - I am a sceptic by nature and I think that there are lots of folks who could benefit by the books you have suggested. (not that I don't also believe that some things are just beyond our ability to expl;ain/comprehen right now...)However I do not view the global warming hypothesis as being in the category of "Bad Science" - though perhaps/certainly there has been some on this subject. Overall I think the empiracle evidence as known/presented/etc is/should be enough to cause some alarm...at the very least...and generate (at least some) action before it might be too late...

Azat - exactly. The observed increase in temperatures is greater then any known models can account for (with natural variance). The mechanisms/causation of this increase are before our eys - area ll around us - and with the rise of developing nations and greater populations will only get worse. And if (global warming is) true - the risk/consequences is/are so very much greater then the (negative?) impact of any efforts to stem such. (not saying that Kyoto or such was ideal or even recommended course of action.....but neither is ignorance). And even if not true - less polution is just better - I can't prove this but I know it to be true...

And Tigrannes - one word of advice - keep your (eventual...[poor girl]) wife sexually satisfied and a whole lot of things become an awfly lot easier...LOL - and its when partners aren't satisfied - by proper love/attention and sexual attentiveness/etc - that they look for such elsewhere. IMO - sexual compatability (and ability [or at least enthusistic effort]) play a major part in keeping families together...its when these wane that often one or the other spouse (or both) starts looking for this necessary human fulfilment elsewhere. Lets put this in terms you might understand shall we? Lets say you were a poor masturbator (perhaps you are - and thats why you think sex isn't so specil etc LOL) - well I supose you would get very disatisfied - perhaps even start thinking/behaving strangely. You suspect that it could be done better - and that you might like it - but you can't seem to figure it out on your own. Don't you think you might just step out of your normal (unsatisfactory) routine and maybe buy some vibrating dolly or other aid - something totally different - in order that you might become satisfied with the experience? I don't know - just some conjecture on my part...LOL And Tigrannes - I truly believe that our world suffers not from too much sex - but from not enough. I think a lot of ur problems are due to people going around unsatisfied, lonely, perhaps confused or depressed - not knowing how they might be happier - etc. Well - don't know if you have had the pleasure yet - but sex is good - really really good (or can be/ussually is - at least from my experience) - it leaves you feeling content and satisfied - HAPPY!!!! - for yourself - and for being able to provide pleasure to others - etc. If we all wwere having more sex I think we wouldn't be going out and doing devient stuff...like starting wars...or being nasty to others in general - or worse....(just my opinion of course) Important note for our younger readers: Sexual relations with others is also a serious business and ussually/always has consequences of some sort (not always negative mind you) - so do not take having sex with another lightly. Think it through and get advice from a knowledgeble grown up whom you can trust. Realy there can be an awful lot of heartache and worse if not handled properly...and don't just do it because of peer pressure or such - if you aren't ready (or the situation is less then ideal) it likely will not turn out to be a positve experience...wait until it is right (for you).

Amazing - but I think that this thread has turned into something potentially intersting and worthwhile. I would like to see more female particiaption however - particularly from Armenia. I am wondering just how sex free and drug free that place really is - and somehow I have mty doubts. Tigrannes I couldn't disagree with you more...well...pretty much on everything...LOL. In particualr your point about sex not being important in marraige! LOL - Man - why don't you just marry a guy then? - LOL. I mean - they only invented TV a few decades ago - think about it - just what did couples do for fun before then? Sure - I don't discount that there is much more to marraige then sex - along the lines you have alluded - but to think it unimportant - and to claim that it is/has been unimportant in family life prior to the present time (in the West)...well this is just a ludicrous statement... And I too have a younger sister. And I always made a point to have a little talk with her boyfriends/dates as soon as I could. It ussually went something pretty much like this. "If my sister ever tells me you have done something against her wishes or have hurt or disrespected her in any way - you are a dead man - period" Other then that I pretty much left my sister to decide on her social life (after giving her the jist of my "talk" to the b/f or date and reminding her to keep her wits & be careful - etc)...and you know what - she has turrned out just great (and only ever had one date "issue" that was promptly resolved after she came to me...and funny thing - he is her husband now...LOL). And she is an excellent wife & mother - etc - as is my wife who certainly had sex prior to marriage (with me at the very least! LOL). I don't see any correlation betwen pre-maritial sex and worthyness of being a wife and mother - sorry - no. Perhaps we should start a poll?