THOTH

Sorry Vahe - but I view cracking open a Bible as a collosal waste of my time...just try threading a needle through a camels eys sometime - or however its said. And you do continually work towards taking care of the poor, giving away your material wealth, acting not at all in self interest but living only for Jesus etc etc...yeah..I thought so...and of course loving thy enemy and all that sort of thing, turning the other cheek...etc etc

Steelers "D" baby!!!!!!! Damn - they are reviewing it. I have the Steelers "D" in another league and though I am ahead - I need the points (my opponent ass Phili D and Thrash going - I should be OK - but I want the points...and I'm a big Steelers fan and this game has been killing me (like last week). As expected they overturned the call...and that sucks...I still need the Steeler to score though (as I am a fan)...but may fantasy lock is gone...(too bad - then I would be 3 for 3 this week gurenteed - as well as pretty much winning (I think) both football pools I entered this week (as I one the only one entered last week). Go Steelers!! (need them to win to lock in both by my calcualtions...) As for the comments - I don't agree. I can give you a version of what it means to be Christain based on the Boble that no one could ever live up to. So short of that I think there is much room for interpretation - and this phobia with gays - and why is amy one sin worse then another - is misguided and bespeaks of one who is also racist, sexist, xenophobic and all the rest - they all seem to go hand in hand IMO. F em. WHAT!!!! I don't believe it - nw an Oakland run back...I'm crushed.... [ September 15, 2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Sip:[quoteAs far as Tigrannes, I disagree with a lot of things he says and I also agree with him sometimes (like to some extent in this thread)... but at the end of the day, there still is respect I think and we are even playing football right now in some fantasy sports site. BTW - congrats - your team is on a roll...but I'm right there next to you baby! (I suspect we will be duking it out for the the division title at the very least)...and poor Tigrannes zaroe for two - of course he faced you last wek and me this week - so not surprising. I suspect his team will do better against the scrubs in the other divisions...

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: THOTH, you are hypocritical in that regard. Very. I'm not allowed to dislike gyotner because of their choice, but you can hate communists because of their lifestyle?? No I'm not - not at all. I'm not telling you who to like and why - etc. I'm just pointing out that your views regarding what people do in their private lives are irrelevant and somewhat non-realisitc IMO. And I am admoshing you not to call them names ot be nasty etc - whats wrong with that. And I don't hate communists - where have I said that. I do believe however that the system espoused by Communisim is at its heart inhuman and I despise the totalitarian ends justify the means methods of those leaders/governments that have adopted sytems that they call Communism. And these folks kill people - lots of them - and oppress them. Tell me what any gay person or group has done to harm you - really now... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Don't compare the 1860's to present-day homos. Blacks are born with black skin. Homos are born normal, but chose their weird lifestyle for a reason. Black people never invited harrasment, but gays do. Especially with those sick parades. Actually those parades are a riot. I used to live in Hollywood and one of the most entertaining places to be on Holloween was down on Santa Monica watching the gays parade around - such a hoot! And you say that Homos are born normal - I agree - and except for some real abberrent ones (much as hetero aberrent folks) they remain pretty normal all their lives. If they are attracted to the same sex because of some genetic disposition (and perhaps there is something to this - but I don't think its entirely deterministic) or because of learned(?) chioice - I say what does it matter. If I like dogs do I get upset that you are a cat lover - are we each following some pre-determined genetic pattern - or is there a choice. Frankly i don't see where any of it matters. It all comes down to respect for other people and realizing that what is right for you isn't necessarily right for others. This is true with anything humans do (except where the actions of one impact others). TOLERANCE - I know its a big word - but its really quite a simple concept. Lack of tolerance is responsible for a great many wars, killings, genocides, etc. I don't think we can go wrong with a bit more tolerance in the world. One day you will appreciate it when others so tolerance towards you. Think about it sometime.

quote:Originally posted by Harut:to the ones who don't like TigrannesIII hey, aren't you the ones that tell all the time that society is most healthy with its diversity? so, why are you trying to make TigrannesIII (and his kinds) one of your types, and not accepting the way his is. yes, he doesn't accept you the way you are, but i see you don't (accept his types) either. Harut - may I ask you who it is who is passing judgement here? We are only opposing that he is saying these bad things about a fellow human who is doing nothing to hurt anyone else. Additionally, we are not only calling for acceptance of divesity - but recognition of human rights. Tigrannes is opposing this. Sure he can talk all he wants - and we would not actually do anything (physically) to him. But we would oppose any attempt by those like him to discriminate or act violently. This goes for those who act such toward women, minorities or anyone. If we lived in this nation in the 1860's or prior - we would actively be fighting against the practice of slabvery - how does this make us in the wrong? Just as now - we are speaking out against ignorant and wrong attitudes and practices. What difference does it really make if Damien likes it in the rear (or whatever) once in a while...or igf Hagarag fantasises about Tigrannes young muscular body (LOL - had to put that one in!) - well it doesn't mean anything. These are individual choices. Everyone should have the right to make them as long as (for instance) Hagarag doesnt actually touch or verbally harass pour defensless little Tigrannes...

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:...your type defies nature so it can't reproduce. [/QB] Funny - given this fact (if it is such as I suspect many gay orientated people do have children heterosexually - and in many societies there have been proscribed certain periods of life for such or vice versa etc if that makes sense...and if not exuse me because I am drinking...) - anyway what I was trying to say is that given this contention of gays not reproducing - isn't it curious that there are any gays at all? I'm fully hetero myself...but makes me wonder - maybe the gay life is just so good that so many are willing to overcome all these obstacles just to be with their own...just a thought...nahhhh...LOL

sorry double post... [ September 14, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Damien - welcome to the forum and best of luck to you - I can imagine that your situation is not an easy one. Just remember - you make your own choices -its your life - don't live it by others expectations and guidlines - its your life. But please try to be safe (sexually and with the Tigranes of the world out there...) Tigranes - get a life dude! (and open your eyes up a bit) - all this is nothing new - people have always had a variety of orientaions and such. Human cultre has wonderful variety (and no no don't do that Christianity is just a blip in time...one we are growing out of I think/hope). And you must accept that our current culture more or less accepts homosexuality...so what are you to do (please don't hurt anyone...) Hagarag - what can I see - no one gets out alive in the end - and you won't either...

Well Boghos i agree that these various supposed counters to the Genocide such as claims of the sedition of Armenians are non-sensicle - but there are plenty of others who are swayed by such counter-charges etc. Thus I do see an obligation - as one who possesses some facts on thi sissue to debate the points. I know that you have expressed that you feel this is worthless and that there is no debate - I understand your position. But at the same time I beleive that left unchecked Turks and others will come to beleive that there is truth with these charges/excusses. Well I see some value in demonstrating otherwise. And I see value in diologue with Turks - and certainly not just on the Genocide issue - but certainly it is a primnary issue between Armeniasn and Turks and one that I think most Armenians are not satidfied with the status quo and wish for change (recognition and more...). I have full confidence that Ali is a Turk who is more progrssive in his views on this issue and could be a conduit to enact some change in the views of other Turks - I see this as a good thing. Are there some problems (form my perspective) with his views - yes And hads he recenty perhaps displayed some arrogance or combatitvness etc - yes Perhaps - but having read through the posts I certainly see that and more comming back at him. I think we Armenians are sometimes blind to how we come accross to others. that somehow our (certainly righteous) moral indignation is a sheild for us to shut out anything else - any other views or perspectives. Certainly Turks and others often express views that we obviously find distasteful and difficult to deal with - but Ali - for the most part does not strike me as someone who is just playing with us or such as you suggest. Heh - but you are an adult and are plenty bright enough to make up your own mind - just don't accuse me of being blind or weak or whatever it is youare saying just because I see this issue differently then you. So OK - we are both disapointed in one another....fine.

Why should you care? Well does their nationality really matter? (and in fact many were not Americans but came from all over). By asking this question (which very much sounds like a rhetorical one I might add)..yu are demonstrating the very type of atttitude you accuse Americans of. OK I admit - most Americans pretty much live in isolation from the rest of the world - and neither understand nor care. This is a great luxury don't you think? LOL. At the same time of course no nation is onto the business of every other nation in the world as the US is. (and many of these people do know quite abit about things international...though many also don't but think they do). All in all though I think America (acting in its own interests and in accord to its ideals [sometimes these cvorrespond and at times they don't) is overwhelmingly a good force in the world - at least when compared to alternatives.) Sure we are #1 big guy and many will hate/dislki/be jealous of this for that fact - and certainly we have had our share of screw ups/dirty deeds & worse...but bottom line - we are not really so bad or different from anyone else - on the whole. We are a target all right - for many reasons (and many desrved I'll admit) - but what other nation would you truly trust in our position? (OK, New Zealand...but they have more sheep then people and that makes me suspicious....any others?) And as for the ignorance of Americans - well true (to a degree) - and agina this is a luxery (and one we are often thankful for - LOLl- the rest of the world - or muchof it - is awful f*cked up at times - don't you think?) And - at the same time this ignorant American thing is a bit overated I think. I mean I was just in Italy and talked quite a bit with various Italians (OK perhaps sweet, young, innocent, big boobed ones aren't the greatest cross section...) - but I vcan tell you - I didn't find that they seemed much more aware of things outside their immediate neighborhood then the average American (and none seemed to have ever even heard of Armenian/Armenians...etc...my standard guage of historical/international awareness....)

Well Nairi - I understand you positions - I just can't totally share them - concerning Ali and concerning Turks in general. Sure - I get frustrated and angry like you - but I stll try not to generalize and to treat every encounter etc as unique and as I've said I have had some success - though I admit it takes an almost extorordinary Turk to go against the indoctrination and peer pressure and to be able to accept the negative things/history about their own...Don't give up. And concerning Ali (if he still continues to post) - try to read his whole message, and his underlying positions - and not just concentrate on what points you may disageree with.

Azat - you pee well! - good job...

Oh and Nairi - I agree that the Turks position on lands is perhaps overblown - and that they use this idea that all Armenians are after is their lands against us. I am skeptical concerning Armenians (from the West) actualy going back there in great numbers (though I might wish to - to retire perhaps). Regardless the relevance of this as an issue is still a long way off. Our putting it at the forefront just plays into the oppositions hands - IMO [ September 14, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by nairi:Thoth and Rubo jan, again, though I understand where you're coming from, I don't find it realistic: 1. We CANNOT blindly put our trust into a country that has treated us the way they have until now. Who ever said that - certaily not I. Trust Turkey - you must be kidding - I trust them only to act according to their twisted/perverted logic on this issue - to protect their false image of innocence at all costs. I'm refering to treatment/interations with individuals - and I never said trust - I said be courteous and perhaps listen - I do not think that we have the complete monopoly on knowledge, wisdom or facts... quote:Originally posted by nairi:2. As Armenians, we are entitled to be suspicious of Turks and Turkey, no matter how extreme our point of view may be. What good have the Turks done for Armenians in the last 800 years? How could we NOT be suspicious? OK - I can entirely agree with this - for the most part quote:Originally posted by nairi:3. As long as Turkey sets the preconditions that it does, Armenians CANNOT and SHOULD NOT take Turks and Turkey seriously. Do you refer here to Turkey the nations or Turks. I agree witht he former - but my point is that we must at least give some of the latter a chance. We cannot hold the position that no Turk is capable of a valid (or serious) position or that no Turk is worth diologue with quote:Originally posted by nairi:4. Re: Land claims: Those Armenians who are asking for land are asking for uninhabited territories. You tell me what benefit the Turks are gaining from their continued confiscation of uninhabited territories, where hundreds of thousands of Armenians were brutally slaughtered just 87 years ago. Will their power really collapse or be in potential danger if it becomes a tenth smaller than it is now? I do not agree that this is the Armenian position on Land claims. And even if so this is still a very complicated issue - very much so - with little or no precedence that I am aware of (doesn't mean that perhaps some kind of arranhgement might be works out - but we have oh so very far to go before we get there - and oif land claims automatically raise hackles among Turks (understandably so) perhaps we need to soft peddle this issue a whole lot more (if we have any hope/aim/care for progress). etc

Well I'm sorry to hear you feel that way Boghos - and obviously I don't agree. Just a question or two though - Do you see any value at all in communication with Turks on this issue? If so which Turks? Are there really any out there who hold what you might consider to be acceptable views (outside perhaps the Taner Ackams - who obviously apeal to us but aren't hardly in good graces with his/their own...)

Hardlined Armenians/hardlined Turks - basically would like to see the other side all dead IMO. So perhaps any Armenians and Turks who actually talk civily with each other should be considered as a major step in the right direction. Like all Armenians I understand our bitterness towards the Turks and regarding our (lack of) situation in (our ancient home of) Anatolia...and the strong feeling that it is our homeland and we rightfully belong there...etc etc - but idealism - on its own - gets us no where. We must deal in (geopolitic) reality and with realism (regarding what might be expected with/from the Turks). I find the type of attitudes expressed by Hovsep very distasteful and counterproductive (on so many levels) - they remind me so much of certain Turkish posters in other forums who admit to the Genocide - but express that they wish they had finished the job...(and that we deserved such just for being insolent Armenians )etc. Thinking that Armenians are going to somehow persevere in any type of (conventional) war with Turkey at any point in the foreseable future is a pipe dream of the tallest order. So we must deal with the Turks - on all levels - if we hope for any progress. (war is just not an option...unless the goal is suicide...and even if it were "winnable" (not)...at what cost....)And how can we deal with the Turks if we don't try to understand them and their perspectives? (and they are not barbarians...and haven't been for a very long time...even if we may think that elements of their culture and their recent history of marrauders and empire overlords may make them suseptible to behaviors and attitudes that could be condusive to perpetuation of Genocide against a minority group and reluctance to admit it. And even then I would argure that much of this was circumstansial [and the result of a great many factors]- and certainly not racial per se). And if these Turkish perspectives differ from our own (which they most certainly will) - we should refrain from a knee-jerk immediate counter - instead we should try to understand why they would hold such views - and don't also assume that we know all and they no nothing - and then we should make our points/deliver our perspective in as constructive a manner as possible. This is just my opinion of course...but I think I have had at least limited success with such an approach. I know that we all feel pain and varrying degrees of (justified) animosity towards the Turks (as a group) - but at least we should try to rise above this - particualry when dealing with individuals - because people are humans first - before they are Turks, Armenians or anything else...and basically we are all more alike then different and deserve common respect and courtesy. So I ask that we put aside our prejudices just a bit. If we can't there will never be progress on this issue (IMO). [ September 13, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

I think all of you are being to harsh on Ali. Sure I don't agree with everything he has stated - and I do see a bit of wanting to justify the genocide (sedition issue/Russian cooperation) - but I also see Armenians who continue to view Turks strictly as some kind of savages and who are often not well versed in the reality of international politics and conduct of nations or have very realistic expectations IMO. Can you honestly expect any Turk to have exactly the same views and perspectives on these issues as you? Plaease. And while I may quibble with some points that Ali makes - and like many here (me included I imagine...well certainly with Tigrannes) he may seem arrogant in posts and such - its no big crime. I think that your attitudes condemn this conflict to eternity - it will never be decided. Ali is just the sort we must encourage and work with - even if we don't see eye to eye on all things. And this name calling and such is uncalled for. I am particualrly disapointed in your increasingly hostile tone Boghos. Sure - Ali may hold some views that we as Armenians find offensive...but don't tell me you've never shown the bottom of your shoe to an Arab! And yes - we should be concerned with offending Turks - as not all are truly deniers in any informed sense - they are people - our brothers even in a sense - and regardless our conduct reflects who we are - and it disgusts me to see us emulate that which we claim to despise. Regardless of our differences civility (except perhaps with the most blatant types) is always called for - and I think that we must learn how tro cooperate with the Ali's of Turkey - and here with Ali in particualr - I mean really now - look what he is saying - it is in no way so unreasonable - in fact I comend him for his (core) positions on the Genocide. Lets not pass up the oppurtunity for dialouge and being able to appreciate perspectives other then our own. Let be civil - and stop the nastiness - it is uncalled for (with Ali) - IM(VSH)O.

Rubo - I don't at all disagree with your last statement (actually 2 above in the time it has taken me to post this. And even your last statement is true for many in the US - and probably elsewhere in the world too - but yu have a huge blindspot if you think that these type of peopla are the only type here and that these views are the only ones held by this/my great nation). However - war and the war environment often change they way nations and people make judgements on these issues - rightly or wrongly - it just does. There are very legitimate reasons to oppose Hussein in Iraq - both for the things he has done (funny Tigrannes, but blaming Kuwait for being invaded by Iraq strikes me much as Turks blaming Armenians for the Genocide...) and for the things he is capable of doing. Like it or not - as it stands now - the oil must flow - and sometimes decisions might be made and actions taken that seem harsh and such - but the consequences of chaos - of letting these very disruptive and nasty tyrants to have their way - is just unacceptable. Granted the US (and other western nations) should be doing much more (understatement) to explore and transition to alternative energies (alternative to oil) - and this is a severe shortcomming of policy/insight - IMO. But in the meanwhile - our Western economies (and the world economy) would essentially collapse if the supply was seriously disrupted (its like the Spice in Dune). And I would guesss that there would be untold human misery resulting form this - but who knows - maybe it would do us all some good....but are you willing to sacrifice...and for your children and theirs to also not live with the comforts etc that we are used to today...somehow I think not. But back to this idea of considering the human element. Though it may not seem - from the rhetoric - I assure you that the human suffering is factored (perhaps not as much as it ideally should be - but much more than you might imagine)...I mean look even at the recent campaign in Afghanistan - the US has done a great deal to provide for those (non-American) people - and arguably always has in any war or such that we have been inviolved in. That being said I agree with Tigrannes that we caused great misery in Vietnam for perhaps all the wrong reasons (though opposing both communism and radical Islam are morally correct postions IMO) - but Vietnam was not just that I agree - and was more about corporate greed, pride and stupidity. As for Iraq - well I vigourously oppose invasion at this time - under these circumstances - though I certainly see the need (value) in eliminating Saddaam - and again I believe he is a dangerous tyrant - who has made the Iraqi people suffer and he threatens general peace and prosperity and perhaps even our Western way of life (if he were to truly obtain a stranglehold over oil). I even take some of this one step further (as I did in 91/92 - and say - it is way overdo for a Kurdish State (Turkey be damned!) - I mean comon now. I see no reason why Iraq should not be parcled (though again geopolitic concerns of countrerweigt to Iran still comes to play...or at least the idea of limitiing Iranian influence...anmd perhaps I can understand the latter more then the former). But in all of this - though it may seem and probably in many cases does take a back seat - I believe that the human concern (even over non-American lives) always plays a factor - in fact I know that it does. Its just when you are at war - you think of your own first - this is natural - and certain politicians in Generals also speak in ways to give the impression that the US only cares about its own - and this is not true - I actually think that our actions (not words) speak for themselves in this regard. [ September 12, 2002, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Rubo- you should listen to THOTH go on and on about how the US was justified in expelling the Native American element. Sip- congrats on your victory. It was a close score. Tigrannes - somehow I fail to remember stating such a thing - could you referesh my memory concerning what you specifically alledge that I have said here? Also Sip - how do you think Tigrannes is going to feel when he starts the season 0 for 2?

Rubo - Don't presume to think you know what I know about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (I have a feeling that I've read quite a good deal more about these events then most) Please read what I wrote carefully. Yes I believe that "calculations" were made (including some concern for Japanese civilian dead)- which were made agianst the concern for lengthening the war (and additional American, Allied and Japanese deaths) - and the will and capability for the Japanese to resist invasion was not clearly known. Obviously the Russian factor was (a major)part of this calculation (to end the war quickly and to make a post war - anticipation of the old war to follow statement) etc etc - yes yes - all of these things...but if you read what I wrote you will notice that I said that I do not support the decision to drop those bombs...particualry Nagasaki...though i acknowledge that the decision was not such a simple one...

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:It's frustrating that America couldn't care less about the millions of my people that have died, yet I'm expected to stop my life and care about 3000 of their dead. [/QB] Tigrannes - is it some kind of mental illness that I'm witnessing with you whereby you address and talk about yourself in the third person and don't realize that you are talking about yourself while you do so? I can't figure it out really.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Why should I care about some dead Americans when Americans are incapable of caring about the living if they live outside America. Well by your definition I guess that would make you an American then. BTW - answers to such questions are often not so simple. First of all prove to me that your contention is true - that "Americans" care not for lives outside of America. In some ways I could esily argue the opposite - as compared to say...Scotland - I mean really now - what have the Scotts ever done for anyone...etc...and is that all Americans or just some? Please don't generalize and base your (resentful) views concern myself and others here only based on the record of US politicians, Hollywood or whatever other mass market/tabloid version of America(ns) you are consuming...

yeah - agree on how they do the draft - its sucks pretty much. I'm happy with my team though - I knew I wouldn't be getting a great QB - but that was an intentional sacrifice for domminance at the RB and WR positions. My team will be very tough - you all will see (even with eeech - Kordell) Tigrans - your team ain't bad (and I do think that the skins will be a very good D this year and Farve/Holt/Dillon are good too - but potentially inconsistent this year)- and you are in (by far) the toughest division - all of our teams are good. I would be surprised if you win the division - but not a bad team - I admit. And Seaphan - your team is certainly impressive as well - good job on the draft. I made one mistake (and ampissed) - no biggie - but how the hell did I rank Dunn above Bettis and Pittman...I just didn't see it I guess. I see charmin and the boglers as tough teams - and suspect that they will win their divisions easily. ours is a real toss-up IMO - and since we all play each other twice (I think) our records will likely be somewhat diluted as opposed to those other two. I think my team will triumph in the end of course....LOL.