THOTH

Domino - I think it would be very useful to develop this approach further - and clarify it - first by citing the Turkish (counter?) accusatrions then by presenting data such as you have gathered and calcualtions as you have projected. Frankly I would be very surprised if Armenians were responsible for 15,000 Muslim deaths (anytime prior to 1917) - but I am open to this if the facts merit it - I am not naive that there were not some Armenian fighting bands & such (as one of my Grandfathers joined one in retaliation for his family being killed and village destroyed). Oh, and please, I don't think that your tone needs to be directed at Ali. He seems entirely understanding - at least in the intellectual sense - what occured to our people - and is certainly in no way a denier.

Very intriguing actually. First the government falls because of (failing of Dutch peacekeepers to prevent) the Srebianca massacre...then the assasination of Pim Fortuyn...which I think is a great shame. I might not agree with this guy on many things - but he seemed to have some interesting ideas - and not all what I normally would associate with the "right-wing" even if he was anti-immigration - etc (like our Pat Buchannan). What gets me was how he was very openly gay and was against immigration because of the concern that Muslims were less open concerning homosexuality! Somehow I don't think he would ever have made it on the Republican Party ticket here in the States. LOL And he was killed by some obscure activist (forgot what cause) - with seemingly little relation to (any issue regarding) Fortuyn's message/platform. ? And now his party looks to score big in the upcomming election...though I wonder who are those (remaining) of his party - are they more Le Pen types or Boy George? Anyway - I think its a shame that this guy was shot - I think he was likely healthy for debate/consideration of these issues - which seem to be largely ignored in Europe - and a crisis is brewing I think - and not just in France & Netherlands. Perhaps there is a conspiracy of some sort to shut this guy up - eh? Who knows? It just seems very unusual - as assasinations often are. I'm sure politics will be pretty unusual in the Netherlands for a while. (not that any really care much here in the States...I'm likely an abberation - don't get the wrong idea that folks here are even aware of whats going on over there - they're not...by and large).

Good to hear. A small step in some sense certainaly - but also a large (and long overdue one) nonetheless. Still, I wonder how this program was recieved and if it and the wider availability of such information (books & television) will really make a dent considering the years of indoctrination against and continued villification and marginalization of Armenians in the popular Turkish media and in schoolbooks and such... [ May 13, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Ali - super post - IMO. All of us need to consider these issues and understand the difficulties (they present) in achieving Genocide recognition (and anything else along these lines) due to these Turkish perspective(s) and situation. Sure - it is easy for Armenians to say - "recognize the Genocide" and to expect justice - but as we have seen - this tactic has not worked. We need to understand why - and we need to approach the recognition issues more sytematically - IMO (resolutions from foriegn governments are all well and good - and they keep the issue alive - but in the end they do not force Turkey to do much of anything). Armenians need to much better understand both the Turkish position(s) (true and false & whatever else) and we must understand how these beliefs and the real situation over there have responded, and how they will likely respond, to overtures and further attempts at Genocide recognition and pursuance of any claims - etc. So first - IMO - it is imperative that the Armenian side do a much better job articulating everything - beginning with the "charges" (the best articulated thus far - but stuill could be done better - IMO) continuing on to what "we" want/expect - recognition (specifically of what? etc), apology (?), and compensation (?) - or whatever. And while I agree that aquiring land - at this point - is extremely unrealistic - I can perhaps envision an arangement where Armenians (Diaspora and from Armenia itself) may be granted certain economic incentives to do business in Turkey and perhaps eventually to settle and reaquire property (?) as individuals (and perhaps as non-Turkish citizens?) etc etc. I think we must be creative here as the "standard solutions" clearly will never work. I think that this sort of thing is a long time off of course - but it might eventually be pitched as something mutually beneficial for Armenians/Armenia and for Turks/Turkey. And I understand that there are many complexities even to a much more basic understanding. So - on to your post - quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:ok everyone, here is my motive for inquiring about the reparation business: there are x main obstacles on the turkish side for recognition of the genocide: 1. national pride. turks just don't want to be braceketed together with the nazis, serbs and the like, and the foundations of the republic were built about us being a honourable nation awfully wronged by people from within our ranks (you guys) as well as by enemies from outside (the great powers). I agree that this is a tremendous "problem" to overcome. Ataturk & Co did their "jobs" well in this regard unfourtunatly. Of course the fever pitch generated leading to WWI with the fall of Empire and in the face of the last throws of colonialism are also much to blame - as they are to blame for the possibility of such excesses as led to Genocide. Turks must understand that the CUP are not their heros - instead they did tremendous harm. Likewise - decision made by Ataturk must be understood in proper context. He perceived certaina actions as necessary for Turkey's survival - while some or all may have been - some things he condoned were also clearly excessive in regards to the minorites - this has to be understood (as "wronging" people - regardless of results etc)...and a little less "Ra Ra" regarding the founding of the Republic - always difficult - but this is presenting an objective examination of this time... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB 2. the political legacy. many of the prominent people who took part in the deportations and liquidations were later incorporated into the political and administrative structures of the republic, and their direct decendants still survive.[/QB] Yes - as much as Turks today who somewhat understand the issue but who claim it was Ottomans/CUP - not "us" like to believe... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB 3. the territorial question. not much of a question at all for turks, it is nevertheless still being kept alive by hardliners on both sides, principally for domestic political purposes rather than itself. [/QB] IMO - this is mostly use to drum up opposition. "Those Armenians just want 'our' lands!" etc and by Armenians who lack a sophisticated understanding of the situation. The latter are not the mainstream - IMO - or if they are I don't think they have really thought it through - anything beyond just some emotional response. quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB 4. the confiscated weath. a number of industrial concerns, mostly family businesses, thrived on confiscated armenian wealth, mostly immovables. any solution that incorporates reparation is likely to meet resistance from them, and these guys are strong enough to make and unmake governments in turkey. to avoid them as enemies, one has to find a solution that will satisfy the armenian side, and not unduly harm the turkish side. [/QB] Very difficult issue. I don't know the solution to this one. I see a corallary though - Corporations (Eurpoe/West/elsewhere) don't naturally enact policies and procedures to protect the environment - to control their impact - it costs money - affects the bottom line - they must be forced to do so - by Government rules/enforcement or by public outcry. These interests in Turkey may have to be forced (in some way) - ultimatly... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB now about 1), there is now growing awareness that our past does contain dark pages, and the armenian question is so recent, the after effects so obvious, and has been brought to the fore so many times, that the version many turks are prepared to accept is not that different from the armenian one anymore. turks still feel their skin creep when they hear the g-word, but i reckon it is a matter of time before they get reconciled to the notion that some amongst their ranks might have planned such a thing. [/QB] Can only hope. Still the mental block is huge. quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB about 2), most of these guys are dead by now. and since the issue has reached such international proportions, especially with the coming into being of an armenian republic, that whatever political gain obtained from protecting the memory of these guys will be far outweighed by the political losses that any further attempts at burying the issue will cause, and people are well aware of it. [/QB] Turks must come to realise this - hopefully sooner - rather then later. Unfourtunatly I doubt that they will - until some Armenians again resort to terrorist type tactics - to make them feel the pain and to further publisize the issue. However this time with biological weapons & such - and it will become to painful to ignore. I really think it may have to come to this before Turks really wake up and understand that being big & striong as a nation is no assurance against certain devestating vunerabilities. Not in this day and age. So Turks - how painful do you wish to make this? Because the issue will not go away - no matter how difficult it may seem. The choice is - negotiated solution - where each side gives and gets - or a forced solution - where no one will be happy. I mean - look at Palestine/Israel today....who wants that? quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB about 3), this has always been a romantic rather than a realistic approach. i understand the net majority of armenians are aware that turks simply will not yield an inch of territory, as can be expected from any sovereign state. so it is unrealistic to bring this issue about as if it were a serious, fulfillable desire. [/QB] Agreed - as you have stated it. This is truly a non-issue - IMO. It is only made an issue by ignorance/misunderstanding - and by intentionally focusing on it to rile up defensiveness... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB this leaves us with 4). the wealth appropriated from the armenians - and greeks - is vast, and much of it is in private hands now. so any move at reparations will put you at loggerheads with a number of very powerful business magnates in turkey. one must understand the scale of the dispute (the amount of wealth) involved and its present whereabouts and status before one can embark on this in an intelligent manner and get results. that was the reason why i was asking this question. [/QB] A major dilema. Of course - if Armenian "terrorist" efforts were directed to put economic hurt on these corporations (not just through violent means perhaps - but disruptions, protests etc etc - enough to shave those profits and make things difficlt....) - well you never know what might suddenly begin to sound reasonable. No easy solution though - I agree. quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB comments expected. cheers, [/QB] Comments given...

Ali - I think that you have a good point. And while I agree with Domino - that most do not consider the economic motivations of the CUP in liquidizing the Armenians - I believe this is only one of the several factors that they (and their predecessors) undertook to massacre Armenians. I understand and sympathize with Twilight Barks concerns regarding concentrating on material wealth & such - when the bigger picture - that is what is most important - is the human tragedy - the savagery of the acts against individuals (the murdring of them) and the wide spread depopulation and current dearth of Armenians in their historical homelands. In this context any property losses etc are clearly secondary consideration. Of course I do think we must understand this aspect of CUP motivation (it helps to complete the picture) and I support pursuance of individual claims. Alas - though our family - on my Grandmother's side (also wealthy Constantinoplians like Hagarags) eventually lost all - I am not aware of much documentation surviving. In any event it is not my principal motivation for seeking justice. My Grandfather's family was as poor as my grandmother's was rich - yet their suffering was certainly greater (loss of life of all except my grandfather) - so how is value placed on this? [ May 12, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Sip:To clarify, if I were the father, I wouldn't feel any different than if they used "my" last name. I think Thoth also said the same thing (i.e. doesn't matter which name is used). agreed - no big deal....though they do have my last name - my wife never requested otherwise and I think we just assumed they would have my name - though again I am/would always be open to some other way - perhaps even a complete new name altogether. I do like that they have my name however - but I could not easily be worked into a frenzy if someone suggested something different.

My wife has chosen to keep her maiden name - doesn't bother me in the least. My position - who am I to impose my name on someone else? Actually she has said she would change it if I really wanted her too - but it is a non-issue for me...

Aww - I'm sorry to hear this Kaz. You deserve better. You (like all of us at one time or another) must face the fact that such feelings are not always mutually held and that there are many reasons why we are attracted to different people (or not). Please don't let this hurt your self esteem or such - its just the way of things & people and not because of "you". I'm sure - that with your very positve attitude and "exotic"/ ethnic looks you will soon find some (nice/handsome/exiting etc) guy to sweep you off your feet and worship you as you deserve. So cheer up! You have too much going for you to feel/stay depressed...relax, don't obssess, and everything will turn out great for you! cheers! [ May 07, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Anoush goes beyond supporting Armenian cause to bashing Jews, and dragging their name in the dirt. By doing this she is doing much to hurt the Armenian cause. Her true agenda is not supporting the Armenian cause but bashing Jews. True statement.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor:I agree with every word both of you say. But the point is that Europeans are aware of what their ancestors did, and I'm sure you know better than me the special legislation and other measures taken to protect the native American heritage. Agreed - this is a very good point. Whenever I get this argument (from Turks) that other peoples (Europeans mostly) have done this or that of a similar nature - I respond similarly. Basically I say - well our history books don't hide it, we don't arrest people for saying it, and we have - to some degree - apologized and have instituted some restitution. Bottom line - it is not denied and we don't blame the victims. quote:Originally posted by gamavor: And besides, parallels are not appropriate from a cultural point of view. In the first instance those who were perceived "civilized" were killing those who were "not-civilized", and in the Armenian, Greek and European case in general, was the opposite. European settlers brought religious freedom and industrial growth, Ottomans brought destruction, enslavement, and retardation for the subject nations. I understand your point - and I guess it is worth noting - but it doesn't fundementally change things. From our Western/Europen perspective we are more "evolved" in the categories we emphasise - technology/industry etc - but were/are we in fact more evolved spiritually? In our understandings of the ways of the earth? etc Did we bring more "freedom"? - what is the definition of this word...I would argue that by its nature saleried employment (which most of us endure) is less "free" then the hunter-gatherer or nomadic lifestyle - etc. And not only the Ottomans brought slavery into the lands they entered. I also think that your portrayal of the Turks as strictly barbaric is not the entire truth - even if we are repulsed (etc) by their method of conquest/domination/expansion etc. Still again - i say there are differences between "modern" standards and that of "ancient" peoples. And in fact much of what we know of Armenian culture today owes itself to assimilation from the Ottoman (and otherwise...and it goes both ways of course). Obviously much of what we think of as Ottoman was in fact Byzantine....and they thought of the "hill" Armenians as pretty primative (wether otr not it was true per se)....anyway - there exist multiple perspectives on these things... quote:Originally posted by gamavor:One more thing. America although, populated with Indians, was more or less no one's land, simply because there were no state or other organized enough social structures. Not sufficient in and of itself. A "modern" society would respect the cultures it encounters and would understand that what they were undertaking was invasion - even if there was no warfare - the imposition of European ways on the land precluded that of the various tribal ways that were in existence at the time. But - what was done cannot be changed now - and our history is not yet ended (to judge if ultimatly it was a good thing).

Gamavor - I think that there is a big difference between "ancient history" (and the behaviors of "ancient" peoples and modern or recent history and the standards of accountability that should be expected today. I see no benefit to anyone crying about invasions of ancient nomads (nor even European incursions into the Americas [or Africa/Asia and elsewhere - etc). In all of these instances great tragedies took place and earth changing events were put into motion. Sure - we can "blame" those who came and conquered (and slaughtered & enslaved & such)...but of what practical purpose does it serve? No, it is better that we understand the processes and dynamics of such cultural developments/interactions and movements and learn what we can from them (about good & bad aspects of cultures, societies & human behaviors - etc). Understand the history - the dynamics of it - who the peoples were and their characteristics at the time - the motivations - the dilemas etc...but crying about this history is useless - IMO. (beyond just perhaps crying about the losses and what could have been - etc - but this changes nothing) I see the recent history of the Genocide as entirely different. First - it is not yet even history - IMO - as the process of marginalizing the Armenian people continues. (through the denial and through actions aimed to destroy or cover up Armenian culture in Anatolia). Secondly - the Genocide is a modern tragedy and (many of) those who were affected are still alive today - or are just recently dead - and their direct descendents (us) are alive and continue to be affected by what occured. Third - the truth must prevail. Are we to let political expediency (etc) quash the truth - protect the perpetrators and deny us justice? NO! This is a contemporary struggle for truth and justice - not some account of ancient times. Thus we must deal with the truth in all its respects. Slinging generalities and sound bites around is not good enough. Thus we must deal with events factually - we must present our evidence and counter the false arguments precisely - and not get caught up in brandishing meanigless lables and crying about past history that we cannot change.

Good article..BTW I am going to make sure I pass this comment along to all of my Jewish friends: "We don’t get overly upset when scoundrels like Elie Wiesel, Noam Chomsky and other opportunists help perpetuate the hoax of the slick Armenian con artists. While these weasels may be “experts” in the Holocaust matters, they have diddly-squat qualifications to speak about the Turk-Armenian conflict. They are in it to fatten their bank accounts. Just ask Elie Wiesel how much he charges the Armenians for a “speaking engagement.”" I'm very sure they will take it well - calling their heros Wiesel (who is a brilliant man BTW) and Chomsky "opportunists" and such....

A PBS show - "The lost Treasures of Christianity: The Lost Treasures of Armenia" Showing right now on a local PBS station. I'm recording it - will let you know if its worthwhile...

The show focused on Dr Lucy Manualian and her studies of Armenian Churches and monestaries and the influence of the Armenian architecture on subsequant European cathedrerals and the like. Also of note was a short piece concerning her great uncle (?) who had extensively documented Ani (for 20 years) around the turnm of the century. He sketched and painted a very many buildings - was frustrated that they were never published (in his lifetime)...etc etc

Of course - that is why they call Liberals "bleeding hearts" - while the so-called "conservatives" can always be called on to act in pure and utter (greed based/short term) self interest...so one need only ask - who has the oil, who is there to do the/our dirty work, who needs apeasing for this reason or that and who really doesn't matter (in this scheme of things). I'll answer one of these for you - the last - that is Armenia.

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: [ April 19, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

TB/Domino - I think that you both make good points. I can see why one could become easily frustrated by Ara's posts. But I think a very many of them contain wisdom and insight (and even if one says it is not his own - certainly he is the one applying it). At the same time there is also often a disconnect in much of his work - a detachment from reality - a generalisation to the point of uselessness (and in doing so - he misses his target - sometimes greatly - IMO). Still, like Domino says - there is an artistry in his approach - and there are certainly things to ponder - agree or not. And many in the Armenian community could benefit by taking to heart much of what he says (even if it is said only as a critique without any true hope of influencing change). Even if the posts are only to stimulate discussion or debate or disagreement I think they serve a purpose. And TB - your critiques have been most excellent - I am much impressed. I would only question the degree of venom in your response. Obviously his posts irritate you greatly (and you do explain why). I would only ask to concentrate on the facts presented and give the (old) man a little slack as Domino has said. Or do you really think he is harmful? (In some real way - as some do - for pointing out "our" alleged failings - giving ammo to our "enemies" and such)? I don't - I find the debate itself worthwhile and educational - whether or not I agree...

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: There will come a time when you will be targeted by people who will demand that you share their hatred, and if you react by trying to share your understanding, they will hate you too. That’s because hatred and understanding are mutually exclusive concepts. Hatred, my good friends, is a transgression whose in-built or self-inflicted punishment is a maimed brain, a damaged understanding, and a severely mangled view of reality. LOL - so true - I am reminded of some recent posters on this forum - recently banned.. BTW - some very nice thoughts here of late, dear Ara, keep up the good work...

Thank you.

More on this subject later (some very interesting details and supplemental material...incl possibility of wine from China circe 9,500 BC! and a Wine-Mead-Beer concoction from Anatolia circa 5,500 BC! (that has been recreated [& is for sale?] in Deleware USA!) Geneticists Question Origin of Grapevine Domestication By Lynn Alley For many years, wine historians believed that winemaking and domestication of grapevines first began somewhere in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, which run between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, then slowly spread via trade channels down into Mesopotamia, Egypt and, ultimately, Greece and Rome. Available archaeological evidence seemed to support this belief. But an international consortium of grapevine geneticists has evidence to the contrary, which they first presented at the International Genome Conference in San Diego in January. They believe that grapevines were domesticated at multiple sites throughout Europe and western Asia -- the natural range of wild Vitis vinifera, the vine species that produces the grape varieties of most of the world's fine wines -- at different points over a long period of time. "Our data is just not consistent with the popular view of grapevine evolution," said lead author and senior researcher José Martínez-Zapater. "We now believe there may have been multiple domestication sites throughout western Europe and Asia," said Martínez-Zapater, who works for the Centro Nacional de Biotecnología in Madrid, Spain. Looking for clues about the evolution and spread of Vitis vinifera, Rosa Arroyo, a postdoctoral fellow in Martínez-Zapater's lab, analyzed hundreds of samples of chloroplast DNA from vines that came from throughout western Asia and Europe. The DNA found in a vine's chloroplasts is relatively stable through the female line over many centuries, unlike nuclear DNA, which undergoes a "shuffling" every time sexual reproduction occurs. From any given region, wild vines and domesticated ones turned out to have remarkably similar chloroplast DNA -- indicating strong family ties between the two. This suggests that the domesticated vines may have developed from the local wild varieties, rather than having been brought there from another area. "We first noticed similarities between wild and cultivated vines in Spain, then realized that the Greeks were making wines from large-berried grapes that were significantly different from the wine grapes used in Spain," said Martínez-Zapater. "We then began to reach out to scientists throughout western and eastern Europe to compare notes." Dr. Harold Olmo, grapevine geneticist and breeder emeritus at the University of California, Davis, has long believed in multiple sites of domestication, but had been, until recently, one of a few scientific voices crying in the wilderness. "It only stands to reason that human beings would have discovered that nearby wild berries were full of sugar and good to eat, and that they would ferment easily," said the 92-year-old researcher. "Why would they have waited for someone up the road to bring in grapes and wine when they had them in their own backyards?" But molecular archaeologist Patrick McGovern, of the University of Pennsylvania's Museum Applied Science Center for Archaeology, believes that while the geneticists' work may shed light on the story of domestication, existing archaeological data do not support their theory. McGovern specializes in analyzing food and wine residues from the ancient past, and his work has helped establish the date of winemaking to as far as back 5400 B.C. He believes that the conclusions drawn by the geneticists may be in error, although their data may be accurate. He is currently consulting with Martínez-Zapater on the research. Meanwhile, Martínez-Zapater and his team are working to expand their database of vine samples to include other parts of the world, including North Africa and other parts of Asia.

quote:Originally posted by Domino: And what have you done other then blasting the Jews... It changed something ? A very good point (as usual). There can be no comparision between the great work you have done for our cause (of Genocide recognition and expose deniers) and the HARM they continue to do - by making Armenians look silly and racist. Even Thorny Rose a Turk has done significantly more to expose the true shortfalls of her own people in terms of Genocide recognition and willful destruction of Armenian heritage sites in Turkey. While I don't ascribe to the view that MArie/Anoush & A.R. are actually Turkish agents per se - they certainly do the work for them - and more. I mean - if to them - basically all or nearly all Armenians they encounter are "traitors" - who would it seem are going against the grain here? They only act to make us look like brainless racists. That they are blind to this bespeaks that they really don't care - because it is just their hate of Jews that drives them - not any real allegience to Armenians. (of course in A.R.'s case we know that he just doesn't have the capacity to comprhend).

I couldn't think of a better response then one I posted on another site a little over a year ago. FYI - Anoush is Marie whom I used to all "Anti-M" - the following is a bit of interplay with my trnaslations of her responses: Anti-M - "response" in kind by THOTH (pbah) As you are so apt to address posts line by line (failing usually to truly understand both the meaning of the line and the post as a whole) and answering (for the most part with gibberish) I will assist the audience (by translating your responses) and you (by talking simple and pre-dividing my response into small bite sized chunks so that you can (perhaps) handle it. thoth> If all you did was present your idea of such a "conspiracy" and when we disagreed (or laughed at you) you accepted such realizing that not everyone (or even most) are going to agree with such projections etc then that would be OK. But as soon as any disagree or say - no we can't support your - in our opinion - extremism - you begin calling everyone a traitor & a filfthy this, dirty that & worse - well - that is not acceptable. Regardless of what you say - you are in the wrong - not us. Marie> For someone who has been putting out all kinds of LIES and BS, you have some nerve to talk. Sorry, YOU are wrong, not us...regardless of what YOU say! You think that just because a bunch of ignorant, traitorous morons think the same way as you do that makes YOU right? No, it doesn't. The difficult path, the correct path, is not clear or obvious to the lazy, indolent sorts who are incapble of THINKING. >Anti-M translation: No we don't you do! >My response: Here is hanky, please wipe the spittle from your mouth.. thoth> And claiming that what you are saying is just idle conspiracy speculation etc glosses over your very clear message of hate (your denials notwithstanding) and falls into the (blind and ultimately unsupportable) anti-Semitic trap that certain folks (mostly who claim to be "good" Christians) have fallen into for hundreds of years. Marie> We categorically reject the use of the term "anti-Semitic" as it is totally bogus, having nothing to do with Arabs, who are the majority of Semitic people. I am damn sick and tired of imbeciles such as you calling people "haters" because they tell the truth and think that truth = hate. Sorry, we don't buy that line of BS BS BS BS bla bla bla and that's just what you sound like going on like the rest of the robotic non-thinking liars. >Anti-M translation: We hate Jews - understand! Hitler "told the truth" - we can't help it that you are to much of a robot to see it! Screech, Heil Hitler! Kill the Jews! Hitler was just taking good care of the Jews - good German kindness - and look how they betrayed him! Squawk! All traitors deserve death! >My response: No really, you can keep the hanky, I really don't want it back, yeech! thoth> While you may have an isolated point or two that actually can be taken seriously - overall your extreme hatred (and lack of real knowledge & insight) are what come through most clearly. Marie> To the contrary, more backward talk from a liar. We know what we're talking about and we have the proof as well, your erroneous claims notwithstanding. You never replied to the last post I made to you because you could not dispute its truth. >Anti-M translation: Our clippings from the Aryan nations youth pamphlet are all the truth we need thank you. Can't you see I am holding my hands over my ears? I'm not listening! >My response: Well what can I say? Here is the number of a good shrink I know. No, I never said you had a problem...its just for a consultation...those pills will help you to relax... thoth> Why is it that everywhere you go you only encounter "traitors" and "Jew lovers" etc? Marie> We call them as we see them. We are looking for our enemies and we find them. This is NOT a social club to make nice, this is about serious matters, not fun and games. You and your moronic fellow liars would have us believe that the Internet and forums such as this are places for the egregiously lonely to make friends and socialize. Well, you are wrong. It is a place where truth is going to prevail and justice is going to be demanded. We have legitimate grievances and we are going to be heard! >Anti-M translation: Jews & traitors are everywhere. We (ISSA and I) may be the only ones not affected. They have been poisoning our food I know (but I have been taking the antidote) and they send out control signals over my TV - that is why I smashed it to pieces the other day. I have plugged my ears and never talk to strangers... >My response: Shame you are missing life...is hate & death really so much fun? thoth> Can’t you understand that it is the people who hate (like you) who are the ones that commit the (genocidal etc) crimes against others and who do the terrible things that you are so (apparently) outraged over - not the “Turks” or the “Jews” or any particular racial group of people. Marie> No, it is NOT people like us who commit genocidal crimes. It is people like YOU that allow those people to function freely in society and continue with their wrondoing because no one DARED speak out! Well, welcome to the 21st century of the Internet. No more free rides! >AntiM translation: All violence and oppression in the world is due to people who are kind and understanding and accepting of other people and their differences. If all of these people would be killed - right now - we wouldn't have any more problems - we know enough not to associate with the "animals" of the world (ie everyone but ourselves) >My response: I am not as naive as you seem to think (and apparently you don't read or understand my posts concerning the Genocide etc). But yes, I thoroughly reject your approach (and "ideas"). I am no "traitor" - though to you everyone is. I think your type is dangerous and detrimental to our cause (so perhaps I should call you a "traitor") and most agree with me. thoth> That you fail to understand this is your first failing – and is a major one (have you learned nothing as an Armenian?). Marie> I think I just explained to you that is YOUR failing, not ours. Armenians should know better than anyone else the result of failing to go after the wrongdoers. >Anti -M translation: No - you are >My response: again you do not understand much thoth> Hate is the crime – regardless of the source – and no one ethnicity or people is all bad or can be indiscriminately blamed. (your second failing). Marie> No, genocide, wanton killing and covering up those acts is the crime. Defending the guilty is the crime. Your second failing, not ours. We have never blamed ALL of any group idiot. >Anti-M translation: No - hate is good, compassion & understanding are bad. Blaming the Jews indiscriminately for everything is all we are capable of doing anyway. Do you really expect that we could understand the complexities of real history, politics and current events. Not all Jews - just most! Some Jews just go into the chamber without complaining - we like those Jews. >My response: Oh for a minute there I thought you hated all Jews - I mean with such blanket comments you have made. Please explain your views on the "traitor" Morganthau however - I am not clear on him... thoth> (And you comically oversimplify). Your third failing is your vulgarity – pure and simple. Marie> Lying is exceedingly more vulgar than any bad language. Space us your hypocrisy! There is nothing comical or excusable about lies. Now that you have been told the truth, you have no excuse to continue in your errors and your errors are all the more great if you continue after being told what is right. >Anti-M translation: And they laughed at Mein Kampf too! Now they will learn not to laugh... >My response: You are correct - nothing comical about lies - or about hatred really (though you guys still make me laugh - and perhaps cry a bit as well). But I have been "told what is right" according to you....my my - sorry I don't buy it and neither does anybody else... thoth> So please – take your “crusade” and your “inquisition” elsewhere. I don’t think you will find any converts here. Marie> Pretentious piece of shit! Who in the hell are you to tell us to go elsewhere bastard? Are you even Armenian? I think not. Even if you were, we would still tell you to go to hell. We look not for converts, but for enemies and we expose liars such as yourself. Sure, lying bastards don't like it one bit. Well, too bad and tough shit. The truth will be told. >Anti-M translation: I don't really have anything of substance to say so I will make an Ad Hominem attack (as I always like to accuse others of) And I will say some "bad" words to scare all of you with. And pretty much say more of the same (nothings) in every post >My response: None needed really. You make a fool of yourself quite well I think. Posted on Jan 11, 2001, 10:33 AM

arm80 -perhaps I did not completely understand what it was you were asking. Of course my reply was at the same time a joke - and it was serious. I initialy thought you were looking for just a common element among all people who consider themselves to be Armenian. Reflecting on our diversity all I could come up with was the "nose". LOL. But your reply leads me to believe that you are looking for something deeper - more fundemental - such as this concept of Christianity being an adopted religion and there being a more primal - armo-centric/derived one etc. Though on one hand I enjoy such thought and believe that discovery of our pre-Christian traditions will tell us much about ourselves - at the same time I would caution discarding the Armenian Chriatian tradition - as it is also such a part of us/our history - and I would guess that even what we ultimatly may identify as Armo-pagan or Hititte or whatever the agromolation of religious practices early Armos may have practiced - you will find that very much of these beliefs were also adopted from others that early Armos had contact with (as the others will have adopted what they found apealing/relevant from Armenians). This is the way of it I think. And along these lines I do not think it wise to only think of what it is being Armenian in a static sense - we are a moving target and always have been. It is perhaps just this reason why Armenians still exist while many others have perished and gone the way of Neantertal. So the more important question is where are we going - what will we become...etc Our traditions will serve us as they may - why the need to (neccesarily) exclude some of them?

obviously it is very different for differnt people - with various points of overlap. In genral though I think it is the nose.

Domino - this signature you have posted is even mild for them. I have a copy of about a page long post that they have made that consists of one line repeated over and over with many exclamation points - its says: "!!!!!!!!!!!!exterminate the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I have many examples of them making comments about turning Jews into dog food and many other such disgusting statements. This poll is a no brainer.