THOTH

quote:Originally posted by gen7474:Over the past several weeks I have had the opportunity to read many of the things that have been written on this and other web sites concerning Armenians. For the most part I see an extreme traditional view with an attempt to maintain some type of "originalness". Many of the statements and views openly against almost every single race, religion and creed in the name of preservation. Please enlighten us regarding what other web sites you have viewed. There are some I think that certainly fall into this category. There are many more that portray Armenian culture (etc) much better - perhaps you have not seen a suficient sample. You should be aware that there are several web forums that are sponsored by a few hateful folks way out of the mainstream - more as platforms for anti-semitism and the like. Do not confuse these with mainstream Armenian views - these extremists have other agendas. That being said - yes many Armenians are highly nationalistic and (sometimes overly) Armo-centric...there are various reasons for this, but to ignore the many enlightened, learned and other Armenian sites and populace is a mistake on your part - and amounts to shoddy (or perhaps biased?) research on your part IMO. quote:Originally posted by gen7474:Interesting considering Armenians by themselves are very much a mixture of a number of differnet races, religions and creeds. It seems extremely difficult to communicate with such Armenian traditionalists as it always resorts to cultural or other biases. Understanding that Armenia was the first country to adopt Christianity, does it seem odd that such behaviours are against the very teachings of the said religion. If you claim Armenians are a mixture of peoples then you obviusly know more then you are letting on because most casual observers would not know/understand this. Please tell us how you obtained this knowledge and I am curious regarding your own ethnic orientation. I think it is a stretch to call Armenians a mixture of different races, creeds & religions etc. Armenians are predominantly Christian and have been for 1700 years - this is a very defining characteristic. And while we (like any group) are composed of a mixture of racial/ethnic elements by and large I would consider Armenians to be - on the whole - very racially and culturally homogeneous - certainly in comparison to many other peoples. As for nationalistic/xenophibic etc type of behaviors being un-Christian - perhaps this is true philosophically at the fundemental level - in my experience this is rarely practiced - and not just by Armenians. quote:Originally posted by gen7474:I am simply interested in learning about other cultures for research purposes, Please tell us more. Are you interested in researching cultures or are you doing so - where, in what discipline, for what program? What is your project? quote:Originally posted by gen7474:and true it may be unfair to make any conclusions about a community based on their own online communities, but difficult to ignore considering the sheer anger, hostility and rage with feelings of killing, murdering, abandonment of parents, and the obvious disregard for other human beings who are not Armenian that are themes one sees over and over again. Yes - do not make such conclusions. You must meet Armenians in person before you make any such observations. Obvioulsy you must also note the presence of such elements and then ponder why these extremists are amoung us (and are we so unique?). Because of our very recent history as a nation (and as people/families) that have experienced such great trauma - this intensifies the distrust and negative reactions towards others (particularly traditional "enemieds" - ie the turks) among some/many of us. Also our long history of survival among/between/within much larger hostile powers has affected our physche. Don't ignore that Armenians are at the same time among the most loving and friendly and passive/peace loving people on earth - IMO. We just want to be left alone. quote:Originally posted by gen7474:Unfortunate, considering these are not the values taught by your religion and suppose to be upheld by normal civilized people and proud civilizations. This comment strikes me as odd - could you elaborate? What is your knowledge of Armenian Orthodox or Christianity in general? What is your standard? (for normal, civilized and proud) quote:Originally posted by gen7474:It may be that such a random sampling of opinions are from young, uneducated persons who are closed minded and have not yet had the opportunity to braoden their minds to their own opinions. agreed - though there is a difference between being uneducated and being narrowmineded. Basically I would agree with this contention however. quote:Originally posted by gen7474:Surely, many of the thoughts run common and seem to based on some deep rooted anger. Do you have any apreciation of why Armenians might be angry? quote:Originally posted by gen7474: I am simply an outsider loooking in. My thoughts are simply an observation and are not intended to be malefocent. If I detract such opinions from the information on these Armenian online communities, what about all the other odars (strangers). Yes - I certainly feel embarrased by some of what i see. If you are researching/examining other cultures can you tell us if (you believe that)Armenians are unique in this? quote:Originally posted by gen7474: If you are proud of your culture/heritage it should be good enough to show and not be the basis of unruly ignorance. I am interested in seeing if any of the responses to my opinions will have thought proviking dialogue or the very support of my observations. Kids - what can I say. Are they not unruly somewhere else - etc? Don't make the false assumption that these behaviors define Armenians.

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:[QB]

Well Tigrannes you miss my point entirely - that is that I am appauled by the attitude from any educated person that says they will follow something/someone blindly without question. Good luck with Deacon pursuit. BTW - you musr find your gal & marry soon - otherwise too late for you (if you stick with that is). I think the Armenian church can use some more American born priests (though I'm not sure you are the one in some respects..no matter - i do wish you the best of luck...I imagine they will be loath for you to leave the U.S. though - were you are needed more than in Armenia (numbers issue).

Who are we to question...my my.... [ March 01, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: Do you truly believe that we are such children that cannot judge things for ourselves - that always must accept the word of some supposed authority figure? Pathetic. Hope for your sake you never get in with a Jim Jones... You are becomming more and more a charactature and a joke...you talk of being offended and such by my values - well yours (as expressed - though I really don't believe you) are truly frightening if you ask me...who are we to question? Are you truly so ignorant/unappreciative of the Western philosophical tradition? What makes you any different then taliban & such...? What a joke...

Yes - excellent question. I don't have an answer for you (concerning the definiton of intelligence)...but I do have some thoughts on your dileama. We can create things that are stronger and faster then ourselves - why not more "intelligent"? We already have computer databases that contain more information then any one person could ever memorize, and processors that can linerally process faster then we do...so what is left? Some form of slef awarness and adaptive learning perhaps. (We already have some of the latter I think)...the former remains a mystery (and perhaps has already been breeched - but the computers are keeping quiet...how would we know? LOL). Of course many Science Finction books have adressed this subject. One I would recomend (except that it is out of print) is "Blood Music" by Greg Bear...where the protaganst creates self replicating/improving nano organizms (initially) designed to combat disease in our bloodstreams. Well they evolve rather rapidly - to say the least... Another thought - I think that our future contains man-machine hybirds (and machine-creature hybirds) - already there is a great deal of research going on in this arena - both with microorganisms and organic components for machines. In our near future we will likelyhave available various implants to assist us - mentally, hoormonally, chemically or otherwise...and I imagine (once more accepted) the degree of machine augmentation will likely grow (will we be the Borg? eh?). And then there is the organic components to machines...a very interesting subject...all creating some very interesting moral/ethical and other issues...both related to and in addition to many of the standard genetic arguments....yes the times (and us) are a changing...one can wonder if (purely) organic life such as us is only a stepping stone to future machine or hybird beings? My, my the dilemmas of the (so very near) future...and some of us can't yet handle women driving cars! (seriously - these will be very major issues we will face as a species in the very near future - impacting us in a great number of ways...)

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:WE WILL NEVER FORGET, WE WILL NEVER FORGVIE!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[angryfire]" title="" src="smilies/angryfire.gif" /> I agree that we should never forget - but should we not (as Christians...or otherwise) forgive? Certainly these horrific events - and those of earlier Genocides and masscres must not be forgotten by our people - but at some point I think we must forgive and move on - attempt to achieve some justice/recognition and (perhaps)punishment (of the perpetrators)...but if we can never forgive then what is our hope for the future? Is a contined cycle of violence our legacy for future generations? Do we aspire to Palestine? I think we must be aware and consider this and how we can properly honor the memories of our fallen as well as maintain the moral high ground that I believe we possess.

quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: quote:do you believe in the evolution theory?1. I am Christian, and it clearly states in the Bible (and for that matter all other Holy Books), that God created the living (and man in the original form)...I suggest that you pick up and read a copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In it you will find the passges from which the book of Genesis was based (remember the 400 year Babylonian exile of the Jews...well they assimilated a few things along the way). Not that this tale will contradict your assertion...but it (in part) describes the process whereby the Annukan (Gods) took the genetic material from apes to create mankind. And interesting alternate version of mankinds creation partially summarized in severly editied form in the Book of Genesis. (the great flood/Adam & Eve in the Garden & other events occur in the stroy as well that might be if interest - each with a different twist...actaully the Genesis version is the twist from the original...) quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: quote:do you believe in the evolution theory?2. The theory has holes in it, eg. When a species 'evolves' into a new species there is presumably a 'being' that is basically 'half-way' between the old and the new. Examples of these 'beings' (sorry cant think of another word but u get the idea) have NEVER been found, despite the 'fact' that life has 'evolved' over so many millions of years. Patently untrue. there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of examples of these transitory creatures (probabaly in Galapogos alone!)

OK Artur my friend - my response: quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:OK, Thoth, now i will say things about you. You call me disrespectful and all fashioned with no respect to women. Look at you. You talk in public about your wife and you having sex, and you happy that she had sex before marriage. It is the sign of respect to her or disrespect? You see your wife as a tool for your satisfaction, and disgracefully talk about it in public with some kids (yes kids for your age). You call your self moral, and say your way is wrong. Define!!! Being able to openly and freely talk about sex is a sign of an enlightned attitude IMO. I understand that there are limits of sensibilities and that this is audience dependent...but no - I don't think I have breeched such (and if I have - to you and those with your attitudes - it is only to make a point), nor do I think I am being disrespectful in any way (and i am sorry if you are really upset - but perhaps you will loosen up a bit - eh?). Additionally, I think you presume much too much when you speculate concerning my maritial and parental relations and such. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is western way right? In what way? That girls have sex like cats before marriage? Yes, in general I believe that the "Western Way" is right (for us) - and that aspects of your "traditional way" are wrong (for women for instance). The respect for individual liberty and choice is a paramount value for us (in the U.S. particularly). Obviously some will "abuse" this and act in unhealthful or otherwise less then desireable ways (affecting person 7 society as a whole)- this is unfourtunate and needs to be combated by proper education (and laws that punish behaviors harmful to others and to the society). Ultimatly ones behavior is a matter of individual choice - as long as it does not adversely affect others or the society. If and when it does - then there should be personal consequences/punishment. Until then - it is a matter of choice (IMO and consistent with the principals our nation was founded upon). These are values we hold dear in the West and we accept a certain amount of aberrent or problimatic behaviors etc in order that the majority can have such freedoms (and resultant oppurtunities). The hope is that people will be mature and make good choices and that individuals and society as a whole will benefit. Would you really prefer to be treated as a child and given excessive rules etc to tell you right from wrong? Obviously some (minority) need this - but should we all have to be so hampered? Is life really better this way (ie. would you really prefer the Soviet/Communist model? I certainly hope not - in my mind the totalitarian path is certainly one to be avoided/opposed. Again back to the "sex like cats" comment. No I don't think this is a good thing per se. (Do you think it is OK for guys but not women though - as Juggernaut believes?). At the same time I will not specify for others how they should live their lives and what may work for them. I will encourage education as to the dangers of risky behaviors and also attempt to impart an understanding of the value of relationships between people and the physical and emotional responsibilities of such (and the need for maturity and judgement in making such decisions). Most of the problems in this realm - IMO - are due to insufficient education. Our young are bombarded with such conflicting images and inputs. They need responsible adults/role models (whom they can trust) to learn from and discuss things with - and not in pejorative manner - but with someone who can understand what they are facing and how they might be reacting intellectually and emotionally to the world around them, including the pressures from their peers and from media and such. The world has become so much more complicated and difficult for young people - we cannot face it with our heads in the sand. And it is the parents responsibility to assist their children by explaining things (or in some cases restricting them from exposure - if possible) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is our society wrong because it does not legalize drugs, but in your society, even kids can buy cocain heroin etc. This is a very complicated issue (perhaps warrenting another thread if folks are really interested in discussing in more detail). Briefly however I think that you will find drug use/abuse issues in every society (this includes alcohol as well) - and they are likely to be growing in Armenia and such places (and do not think such behaviors are entirely new even in Armenia - even if you don't see them. I never or rarely ever see any signs of illegal drug use - though I know it must occur and be going on around me. I do see some alcohol abuse though [and such things as drunk drivers on the road] - as I imagine you do and did - even back in Armenia - be honest now...). Because of the rapid change in society, the faster pace and types of pressures on people - we see more people abusing various drugs (for escape/entertainment/counter-stimulation etc etc)- this is certainly not a good thing. Again, education is needed and alternatives for stimulation & entertainment etc. We also have to recognize that a certain percentage of the population will take this route regardless and our society(s) need(s) to find a way to constructively deal with this so it does not become an epidemic (as it has). We have not solved this problem with our current (outdated/unevolved) models. Just by keeping substances illegal is no guarrentee that it will not be available and or practiced/consumed etc. You should understand this empirically. So what is too be done? Again - I believe education and involvement of parents with their children and the availability of alternatives for entertainment hold the key. At the same time I imagine that (any/all) societies will have to accept a certain amont of drug use (& abuse) - the key is balancing the former while minimizing the latter and attempting to coral such use into acceptable patterns that minimize the disruptiveness and impact on the rest of us. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is west better than us? Homosexuals, transexuals, pedophilies etc. are everywhere. People rape kids like nothing. 3 year old - 2 year old they don't care. I don't see the first two the same as the last examples. I think our societies must accept homosexuals &, transexuals & such at some level (basically little or no different from other of more conventional sexual preference). These are indivdual choices IMO and the instance of such inclined people is historical and present in all societies - not just the West. Some of the greatest people in history have practiced such behaviors - so to me these are non-issues. Obviously pediophiles and rapists are a different story and I believe they need to be severly punished and aggresively discouraged. Again, I do not believe that these behaviors are new or necessarily any more prevelant in the West then in other societies or in history - they are just publiscized more. Speaking of such - what does it say about the Catholic Church (and perhaps other organized religious institutions that proscribe somewhat unatural sexual mores upon their clergy) - that they have such a history and seeming institutionalization of these very sexual predatory/abherent behaviors? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Prostitution has such a high percentage, and people like you think prostitution is just the way of earning money, and this encourages young kids to go for it. No - I would not say it is "just" a way to earn money - not at all (this should be obvious I think). At the same time I think that we must accept that it will occur - that there is a (legitimate) demand for such services and that this has been occuring since perhaps the dawn of mankind [or at the very least with the advent of civilization...."oldest proffesion" and all}. So again, what is to be done? Do we (like drugs) keep it in the hands of the criminal underground? Unregulated, etc etc dangerous, criminal? - to me this encourages the young & suseptible and promotes disease, crime and other associated problems....or do we accept the fact that this exists and attempt to set some reasonable limits - for age, hygiene etc...and make it a less lucrative criminal enterprise? Are you aware of the issues with young Armenian women becomming prostitutes in various places of the world? An appauling situation don't you think? So what is the solution for this (I think we can agree that it is a) problem? Do you have some traditional approach to solve it? Why is your "perfect society" succumbing to such? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Or the west better in the way that there is such disrespect to parents. Let me remind you that in your society kids raise voice at their parents, and throw bad words at them ... Kids in YOUR society respect FRIENDS MORE THAN PARENTS !!! People in your society respect wifes more than parents!!! Is this right then? There is a problem with proper parenting (and associated media influences etc) admittedly. But - not all children are this way - I think you would be surprised at the high percentage of "good kids" we have over here. It could be better, admittedly - but there is no test or standard that one must pass/meet to become a parent unfourtunatly - and our society can be doing a better job helping to instil good values (when many parents don't seem capable of handling it for various reasons). And the environment does make it more difficult then in the "traditional" setting - this is true. It is a challenge for us - one we must address (as a culture/nation etc)...I fear our leaders & system may not be up to it...(and I agree with you this is a problem/deficiency...but again the media coverage makes it seem worse then it is - the great majority of our young children today are being brought up very well I think) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Or it is right that kids walk aroung with guns shooting their teachers in schools????? In what way it is better??? Yea, this is a darwinian process - only the best teachers will survive - it will make us stronger as a nation - ha ha ha ha ha (evil laughter...) (LOL - joke...). Yes - this is a problem - and is an inherrent dilemma in our society - particularly in the U.S. - the concept of freedom (in this case for citizens to possess arms to enable them to defend themselves against potential government tyrrany) and that of public safety (availablity of guns + presence of certain percentage of nutso's etc = problems). Obviously each nation/society must determine the acceptable balance between such "freedoms" and the consequences to society. I would agree with you to some degree that perhaps we - in the U.S. are too far toward the freedom side in this (many here would disagree) - this is a societal chioce - and we have (democratic process) mechanisms to adjust (to some degree) where we stand on such. Unfortunatly the number of available guns makes this difficult & problematic. Again though - there is an aspect of media highlighting the problem beyond what it really is (for most places here). I think most people go through their lives here with little or no exposure to such violence (of course it disproportionatly affects the poor and poor/urban areas - but the same could be said for problems in any society). quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is it better in the way that husband and wife INVITE THIRD PARTY FOR THEIR SEXUAL GAMES TO HAVE SATISFACTION ????? Again - this is perhaps an individual choice and a complicated issue. Maybe it is better? Maybe it could prevent a divorce - I really don't know - there are many arguments both ways - and again it is not a simple thing - as personal relationships like this are a delicate matter - but this (or whatever) may work for some people - and they may be able to function perfectly well in society and be good people in all respects etc etc - it is not our place to judge others in this way - IMO. Again I don't think this is really the norm - as much as your consumption of soap operas or what-have-you might make you think. By and large I think most people are fairly conservative on the sanctity of the husband-wife relationship - and most people are not emotionally wired for this sort of thing anyway. But for those that are - well - good for them - enjoy & such - I hope that they are happy and all (and otherwise obey all traffic laws and do their jobs well & function normally in society & such....) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is your society better in the way that guys walk around calling girls bitches instead of showing respect to the most beautiful part of mankind??? Is our way worse, because we show highest respect to our girls??? I have never ever called an armenian girl in bad way as my mouth wouldn't do that. I agree with you here. I don't like such behavior or language - I do not practice such nor do I condone it (and not just toward Armenian girls - are you dsaying its OK to call non-Armenian women names?). Again - I think this is a subset/element of our society - it is not really commonplace and it is neither widely condoned nor is it considered "classy". I do understand that it is perhaps common lingo among some young people - and perhaps its evolved into some kind of term of enderement...LOL - but I agree - it does not appeal to me - and I don't find it acceptable. And aside from MTV or some movies etc its not something I am much exposed to really... quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Is our society worse because women don't sleep with boses but stay at home watching HOLY THING CALLED KIDS??? Is our society worse that our women are so loyal to their husbands??? Is our society wrong because men, do whatever it takes to protect their family??? Is our way wrong when men does not allow woman to drive car, BECAUSE HE CARES SO MUCH ABOUT HER HELTH and doesn't want her to be heart??? Well I gues if you don't let women work they can't sleep with the boss...LOL. No - I don't think this is good behavior - shame on you girls (and guys)! I say - so I agree with you. And yes this does/can occur - less often in real life then in the soaps/movies I think - but because of our society having more interaction between men and women (not married to each other) this will happen to some degree (its just a natural thing...unfortunatly...one would hope that adults could understand the potential consequences of their rash actions and control their impulses - but some don't...and perhaps some do understand and just make that choice - for some it may even be the right choice - their spouse may not be the right match for them for whatever reason - not that there still aren't bad aspects to this [children issues] but sometimes this situation may even turn out better in the end - overall - and maybe a bad relationship/situation may actually have been avoided or such...perhaps the spouse was abusive or negligent....many possibilities...). Again society must balance freedoms for women with a certain aknowledgement that these kinds of "problems" or situations will occur to some degree. I for one think that you have to accept this to a certain extent - and accept that the family (like everything else) may be more fluid then before and may be defined differently - though not in all cases. I have a very stable family relationship - as do most people here - most of us are in fact more "traditional" then our media/movies etc might portray. At the same time it is certainly not my place to restrict my wife from any priviledges and such (or in the case of a car in our society - necessities) as I would have. Sure - perhaps certain risks are involved - but we all must accept some - don't you think? Or must we always be as children and told what to do? Even you do (or would regarding a wife - if you had one) - say more so than if you were a fundementalist Muslim and would not even let the wife out of the house unescorted and showing her face (or ankles) and all. Just think how such a person would berate you for your liberal and scandalous ideas/behaviors! quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Open your eyes and sing, as you don't see such things... you are blind... blind old guy who's got no business but to argue with some kids. You have your own children, go and spend more time with them rather than here! I think it is you who are blind(ed)...what can I say? And I spend a great great deal of time with my children, thank you. I imagine I spend quite a bit more actual (and what we call quality) time with them then the traditional father in the "old school" model of things. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:What is your point of life? What is life for you? To have good time before you die? Life is about kids, life is about relatives, your parents. To make sure that they are happy. Yes, all of the above. And to consider the future of my children, my nation, and our planet...and to work toward the betterment of such. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:You call me stupid and childish. You are right, I am stupid, i spend so much time here arguining with your type people. I am already 20 year old and I am ashamed that I haven't yet build a house for my mother in Greece. I don't think I have ever called you either stupid or childish. I may have used these words mimicking your portryal of me - quoting you and such. I don't think that you are either stupid or childish - you have other problems I think. (being close minded and rigid and not rerally seeing [deeply] what is around you). You could perhaps nuture the child in you a bit more and lighten up a bit - you will likely live longer, be happier, and be more pleasent to be around. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Bro, I don't want to offend you, I don't want to arue with you. We are all armenians here and you armenian too and I wish you all the best, and all the best to your family. I wish your kids be the happiest in the world and have all the wealth. Thank you. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:But start respecting who you are, start respecting our traditions, cos these are traditions of your grandfathers and grandmothers. I have a great deal of respect for my Armenian heritage and the trials of my family and our people. At the same time I realise that time does not stand still. In fact, due to the advent of new technology (since the "discovery" of electricity) change is happening more rapidly then ever before. Human beings are evolving into something different (whether we wish for it or not - it is ocuring) and the "rules" are changing along with this - sometimes too slowly to keep up - causing friction and uncertainty and such. it is up to us to understand what is occuring and to attempt to deal with it to influence our development in the right direction. There will be false starts and problems...many (and they do and should bother/pain us and influence us to try to improve). But attempting to maintian as it has always been is not an option - not for the world as a whole - no matter how much you and I may wish it (and in many cases the "old way" is perpetuating less then good aspects of our societies, ideas, relationships etc that we should be moving away from as we mature as human beings). We are entering an era that will see the greatest change in our species that has ever occured - we must maintain our adaptability to deal with it. This is the trait that allowed us to survive and prosper over the Neantertal. Which will you be? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Movses, wether you or her I don't care i want it to be removed. Obviously you don't see a problem here. No comments... Kazza, i ask you to remove the first 2 lines of your signiture. Pls do so. Regards, Artur Kazza's signature is a non-issue - IMO. To force her to remove it is unwarrented censorship of the worse kind (IMO). What if she was saying that flowers were beautiful and that she liked to skydive - and I happened to be offended because I was colorblind and afraid of heights or such - do I have any right to force her to not express her views? She is not advocating dismembering anyone or expressing racial hatred or such - I think we have seen far worse on this forum.

And back to the topic of our discussion - European (or perhaps Western girls)....Artur - what is your opinion on how they look/present themselves when older? I for one have found that older women in North America & Western Europe (in general) are taking much better physical care of themselves - keeping fit and such (and perhaps availing themselves of cosmetic surgeries & what not or at least using products to help them maintian a younger look). I am not necessarily a fan of cosmetic surgery (though its a personl choice IMO....and in some cases the results certainly speak for themselves) but in general I am finding that (many) older women in the West are maintaining their attractiveness well on...while most "old world" women (including most[?] older Armenian women) let themselves go after marraige - get fat, dress ragedly etc etc - do you agree with this perspective or do you have a different view? And why might this be (if you agree)? Are "old world" women less motivated to stay beautiful for some reason? Why might this be so? And don't you think that it is a good thing that women in the West are taking care of themselves (health & looks) better? I certainly do!

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:These are discussions and thank me from driving some traffic to your forum. 90% of discussions come from me. I am afraid without me your forum would be more or less dead. That's one thing. Don't give yourself toomuch credit. Ref: several thousand posts that occured before you entering this forum... quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Another thing about fingers pointed at me. What is the problem here? Did I break your code of regulations?? Did i disrespected you and/or anyone? Did I ever swear here? No! Therefore there no fingers can be pointed at me!!! These are discussions and in democratical way people have a right to express its opinions and others have a right to disagree with me. Bro, you have some issues and problems with me, others rather I believe don't think so. Regards, Artur I don't understand what it is you are being accused of - but from my perspective you have not violated any forum rules or (directly) insulted anyone - indirectly or as a group - sure - but I think we can handle it (knowing the source....LOL). Your "offensiveness" is confined to some of your ideas - and we cannot be afraid of ideas - they should be freely explored - agree with them or not - offended or not (to a point I guess). And if we disagree with one another we should be freely able to express such and present an alternative view. (Do you not agree?) There are lessons on these discussions - obvious or not - for all of us....

quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:Well TOTH, I would take all this "you are so immature "accusations as a big compliment. At least you seem to be enjoying your life and not behaving like a 70 year old demented man, Like some people do around here... Yes, exactly. Unlike many my age (and even younger aparently) - I have never lost the child in me and I don't think I ever will. I can just stand amazed looking at the sky, the trees and all that is around me. And people are just endlessly facsinating. I have fun with my children on a level that I think few parents truly do - at the same time I have always addressed them as people - not "just" children. Everyone (their teachers, people who meet them etc) comment on their sense of wonder and intense interest in their world around them (and on their intelligence [though I know most Armenian parents are used ot this...LOL]). My wife and I are instilling excellent values in them (chief among them is tolerance and acceptance of diversity). And Artur - my children never "talk back" to us in nasty ways etc or show disrespect (OK - maybe when they are ill or in an intense emotional moment - rarely though) - as we do not disrespect them (and this takes a certain consideration and effort - and is the opposite of a "children are to be seen and not heard" attitude). You would be amazed I think. They also always get complimented for their politeness and good behavior in public. (I don't meen to imply that they don't ever get wild & out of control - often even (daily?...LOL) - but they are boys & are young - and we can reign them in if they get too rambunctious). Oh - and I do like a good joke - certainly - but to those I am joking with - do not misinterpret my joviality as not taking (at least aspects of) this discussion seriously - and do not think I make light because I have nothing to say. I believe that I am making my points quite well...I hope that you are perceptive ans perhaps open enough to learn at least a little something out of it - as I will attempt to at least understand your perspective(s) - even if I don't (for the most part) agree with them... Oh, and did I mention sex in the post yet?

Artur - well you are right..I don't have time to answer you right now - I must attend to my kids! Briefly - I don't disagree with some of what you say - but it is a worst case view and does not represent most of reality here. And of course i do disagree with a number of your assertions - particularly about women driving cars - please. If you cannot understand why this is a non-issue (over here) and even somewhat questionable (back in Armenia - IMO) then I am afraid that ther is little hope for you. BTW - sex with my wife is great, and no - you are not invited... Bye kids...

be serious (thats what they keep telling me)

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:I think it's great that most of these spiurgahyes are completely assimilated. It shows that the Turks won. Well yes they did "win" didn't they (do you really think otherwise). And I am sure that Armenians (who have grown up in the West) had they been living in Anatolia instead would have grown up differently with different values - maybe not your very constricted values though - as Armenians in Western Anatolia were much more cosmoplitan then you give credit - my family certainly was. In any event - its a moot pont - and time neither goes backward nor does it stand still. It is entirely unrealistic to expect that Armenians in America or elsewhere would not assimilate local values and customs etc (and we have always done so in any place where Armenians have been in every period). In addition these values are spreading world wide - and by and large I believe they are good values (sure certainly with some drawbacks and problems). Another thing you should consider (and I certainly do) is that if it were not for your family comming to America and intermarrying with Odars - you wouldn't be here and neither would I. If you choose to return to your roots or what have you - well thats great - thats your decision - for yourself. But do you really think that by attempting to claim superiority over the rest of us - who have chosen a different course - that you will really win any converts? I don't think so. I think it makes you feel good and helps you to justify the decision you have made for yourself (though I also think you are far more Western then you will ever admit). So I encourage you to go to Armenian and see what it is really like - be it your ideal or whatever. I think you will be in for quite a shock - and you will return with a much greater appreciation for what you have here. Though i really hope that if you do go you will find a balance and a maturity to prosper in both worlds and can do something worthwhile to make a difference. Do you have what it takes...? W'ell just have to see....

Artur, Artur, Artur, and Juggernuts and perhaps Harut too (don't know) - First - I can be plenty serious when the need/topic arises. But do you really believe that this topic - your contention that European Girls dress poorly or such is a serious topic? If it is to you then I can only say you need to lighten up. You need to lighten up. And please - you needn't worry about my taking care of my family in any way (My wife has a very good job you know...LOL!). And you worry enough aparently.... And Jugs baby - I am sorry if my joking with Artur offends you - no offense meant. I imagine there is not much else to do in New Zealand than eat and survey the available sheep... To all: I understand that there are tremendous differences in attitudes East & West - and that this gulf may not be bridged anytime soon (with some people). I also would never want to appear culturally arrogant or such and I understand that those of us in the West can also learn form people of other cultures and that we ourselves (our societies) have some very real problems in a number of areas. At the same time I find sexist and racist attitudes very distasteful - regardless of the rational. It is my opinion that any reasoning person should be able to understand these points and realize that even though these may have been the ways of the past, they are not ideal behaviors and attitudes. While Artur and Juggernaut may have an Old World view in this regard I am hoping that perhaps they are intelligent enough to understand why these old ways are in many ways just wrong - and that they certainly should not be a model for the future. In any event - the rest of the world is realizing this from a practical standpoint and society is changing accordingly. At the same time I can understand how people who emerge from more traditional backgrounds will make ceretain (mis) assumptions concerning the dress and behaviors of women (and perhaps men) in the West - this is entirely understandable. In some cases their critiques might be valid - and certainly no one can claim that life in the West is perfect - there is terrible crime and other sick/violent behaviors etc (not that some of this doesn't existis in traditional societies - talked about or no...). But - I think most of the examples cited arise more from a misunderstanding/unappreciation of realities in the West and how we live/our values then any true critique that we are doing it wrong. Womens dress is a perfect example and I think Nellie has explained it very well. (though if I saw her out in public perhaps I too would wish that she was wearing some pretty dress and was all made up [from a purely selfish viewpoint on my part]...then again I imagine she might look pretty good in jeans and a...lets see living in Southern California....hm, lets at least make it a halter top...LOL) I find it funny that Artur seems to be complaining that English women don't dress up and look frumpy and such while at the same time when they do he seems offended that they look like (or act like) whores/sluts etc (from his perspective). I'm sorry that he feels that way and is so offended - and I aympathize with his confusion etc - the issue in my mind though is how Artur makes these blanket judgemental statements that we in the West are somewhow categoricaly wrong and that his perspective is the only valid one. Well - from the git go that makes him not serious in my eyes - so if I respond accordingly - well I apologize. I am more than happy to respond seriously when addressed in such a manner or to comment seriously on serious subject matter. And as for Artur leaving the forum (or otherwise acting petulantly) well - I am sorry for him that he is so closed minded (and un-fun). I do not encourage him to go - and certainly welcome all (non nasty) perspectives and belive that those of us who have adopted Western ways can benefit from exposure and information from our (more traditional) brethern....however I will not cry the blues if he leaves either as I do not welcome the manner he often expresess (what to me are) his extreme and uncomprimising/uncomprehending views. [ February 28, 2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Tigrannes - In all seriousness I think it is great. I'm not sure it will turn out for you as you envision (though I don't know what you are fully thinking in this) - but I know that it will change your life (and hopefully/most likely for the better). I really look foreword to talking to you at some point after you have been there a while - I suspect your perspective(s) on a great many things will be different...

Hagarag, Artur et al A few articles you might find amusing (or not). http://www.theonion.com/onion3803/judge_or...orders_god.html http://www.theonion.com/onion3513/christ_islam.html http://www.theonion.com/onion3731/god_give..._shout-out.html http://www.theonion.com/onion3807/imperson...e_a_priest.html http://www.theonion.com/onion3616/mistrans...ated_myths.html http://www.theonion.com/onion3216/lutheranloves.html

Kazza - I was going to ask the exact some thing - but you beat me to it. (am anxiously awaiting your email BTW) So now I will answer for Artur instead: Of course sex is bad - and girls in particular shopuld not even say the word or even imply anything to do with it. Armenian girls who do so should be lashed or stoned. And shame on you women - thinking of sex as something enjoyable - it is merely a service to your man - and the means of making more little (facist) babies. No, Armenians are not ugly. In fact their/our women are the best in the world - with no competition - the women of other nationalities are just ugly gorrilas - I would wipe them all off the face of the earth if I could - they disgust me so - with their poor standards of dress and their promiscuity and all. And I would kill all fat people (Juggernuts I guess that means you) And we should not enjoy life. As this earth is not pure or perfect we should just scowl and complain about it all of the time. We should continually compare it to our facist ideal place - you know heaven (or my {Artur} idea of such. This is a place where there is no joy, no freedom of expression, everyone moves in lockstep (images from Pink Floyd's "The Wall" spring to mind) And the hashish thing...well smoking anything is bad for you. If you smoke they should cut off your nose. *(well they drink it in India - so perhaps thats OK...but perhaps that is why they have always been so promiscuous over there - with the sexy costumes & dance...not prudes [like me] certainly not) - OK kill all of them too.... There - now Artur can spare us his answer. And if he does decide to leave us (Hye forum) - you can call on me to come up with his very predictable response (or just make it up youself - as we all know him by now). And as for Tigrannes....sigh...to think he is at the young, expiremental age of his (so short) life - at a point where he should be most open to new ideas, idealistic and all - and look what a terrrible old man he has become already...so close minded and negative. I truly fear for him for the future...though perhaps he will grow out of it (when he becomes less insecure about being an Armenian)...while there is still some time to enjoy life. Oh & Tigrannes - when you do finally move to Armenia (we are still waiting) - will you be bringing your satellite dish to recieve all of you Bucks & Packers games? (And just how will that cheese-head go over in Yerevan fashion circles?) Are you waitng for the McDonalds in Republick Square? Do you think they sell Polo there? Perhaps you could become the Armenian snow board team for 2006... quote:Originally posted by Kazza: Artur can I ask you specifically what offends you about my signature? I don't see anything in it against the code of conduct. There is nothing negative in it, no hatred. Do you want me to say sex is ugly, armenians are ugly, don't enjoy life, is that better. It's not as if i am saying make love to everybody. And don't DEMAND the moderators for your own way as if you are spoiled! If you hate it so much as them nicley or else don't look at it at all! It's not going to kill you. Mabye i was stupid for thinking you are halfway intelligent! I am really dissapointed again. NO regards. [ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Hi Kazza - nice to see you back & your comments are so very true...women everywhee are beautiful I think... And our black shirted/black booted friend Artur - Mr Doc Marten / right wing / kick a fag / wave the flag goon...(unfortunatly they are everywhere too...)

quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan: Critics may be pretty different. Agayan and Raffi were always critisizing each other like enemies. Maybe it is not my business but in my opinion Twilight Bark is very intellectual critic.It is interesting for me to read Ara as well as T.B.'s ideas about Ara's thoughts. T.B., critisizm as you know is the best inspiration source for the writer as well as for the philosopher. My respect, Vahan Good comments - I second them...not sure where it leaves us however... I think that TB's critique of ARA is valid - though perhaps overstated - IMO. (and its just that - my opinion) I think that Ara has a great deal of very worthwhile things to say - things - it seems to me - that many Amrenians need to hear. (though sometimes he reminds me of my mother - shrilly stating much of the same over and over - and no matter how [sometimes]obvious and often oblivious to the receptivity of the audience). That the very Armenians (majority?) who need this sort of message mostly shut him out is understood - and this divide is unfourtunate - but understandable - much as Artur and I talk past each other when it comes to matters of religion. Perhaps Ara could state his message differently - be less strident or offensive...possibly - though then he would not be himself I think...and I think TB is correct that Ara perhaps is not the complete package - but nobody is perfect. I also understand TBs frustration that the Armenian community seems unable to produce decent leadership (in any realm)...but is at east part of the problem the Armenian community itself - patently unable/unwilling to follow good advice? I don't think we lack (very)intelligent people - we seem to prosper in the arts, sciences and in business....so just what is it (characteristically) that prevents (and has prevented) the emergence of leaders - politically, philosophically etc from/for the Armenian community? And is it now too late? are we too divided, too different from one another because of our diverse backgrounds in the Diaspora - perhaps having more in common with our "host" nations than with ourselves? Is this it 0or is it something different? (I really don't know)

Artur - Do you realize that substansial portions of mankind have been practicing Pagans since, I don't know - lets say 250,000 years ago (well, at least 40,000 I guess for Sapiens Sapiens)...are you saying that they had it all wrong for all those tens of thousands of years? (and BTW - do you think that all these people are now in Hell?)

Artur - please It is mostly just a joke (IMO) - he is a hedonist - (basically) nothing more - and nothing wrong with that (to an extent). I would not put any faith in his book (which I have read a long time ago) as being truly satanic in nature. He makes a few good points though - that diehard - have no fun Christians could take to heart I think...(If you trul;y want satanic try reading Alestar Crowley or Marquis de Sade...or better yet Adolph Hitler (Mein Kampf) or the writings of St John Christendom (or whatever his name was)...those medevial popes - you know all those inquisition types etc

Ed - I find your attitude very unsettling (to put it mildly). Regardless of what your family has experienced - though I understand perhaps some personal bitterness. If you had said "typical politician" I could back you stance - but not typical fill in the blank of any race. To me all peoples are basically the same - they want prosperity and comfort for themselves and their families - want to be free of outside interference as much as possible (I don't know - maybe this last part is American bias - but it seems a universal trait to me...), and they are not wicked & cruel by nature - but basically good (OK - sometimes petty & mean)....but what I contend is that most Jews are very sympathetic to our cause, our pain and our suffering. Jewish leaders/politicians may be another matter (for a whole variety of reasons). Please learn to seperate the two. Jews are people - just like you and I - in fact as a people they share a great many chrarcteristics and (have similar) customs to Armenians (funny, I can even say the same regarding the Turks). We would be much better served to accept this and use it as a point of commonality - and fight our political battles in the appropriate realm - IMO quote:Originally posted by edward demian:lets face it. The typical Jew is is an ungrateful selfish person who cares more about profit and advantage than truth or compassion. Their cynicism is reflected by their politics. They see themselves as special and the rest of us as consumers. A typical Jewish inside Joke: "Why did god make Gentiles? Someone has to pay Retail" "Jesus saves, but Moses Invests." Before any of you anti semites get all excited, No I don't agree with what happened to them. No one deserves that. And my father risked death for the whole family for helping Jews escape the concentration camps in Romania. He did that because it was right. Despite the fact that my family, Saw Jewish merchants buy the goods looted by Turks from Armenians in the town they came from. The Jews have much to Hide. From their Involvement in the decision making that led to the Genocide, to the financing of the slave trade that brought the Africans to the new world. Read your history in order to understand your enemy.

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: I love (georgian) wine...And both cognac and wine are good for your health, especially wine. Well at least we can agree on something...