THOTH

MosJan - I don't see that Khodja's comments warrent such a reprimand. He was just expressing his opinion - and perhaps a valid one from his perspective. He was not name calling or abusive or anything of that sort. I also understand your defense of MJ - and I agree - he is an incredible resource - knowledgeable and reasoned and tireless in his efforts. In general he is to be commended (and treasured here). However MJ is often harsh and quick to put others down (often rightly so)...this leads to resentment among folks I think - and he is certainly intellectually intimidating as well - so you must expect some backlash/resentment at times. You too need to lighten up a bit I think. Often through criticism we are provided an opppurtunity to learn and improve ourselves.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: winston, turkey is currently ostensibly ruled by a coalition of senile third-world communists going around in diapers, the modern versions of the thugs of talat, and a bunch of professional crooks, and really by the army behind the scenes. so what do you expect them to be like? Well - I'm sure its not quite this bad - though it is clear that much of the Turkish leadership lives in or are ruled by a vision of the past. The legacy of Ataturk cuts both ways at times I think. I don't discount that Turkey is in a very dangerous neighborhood and is subject to stresses - internal and external - that require viliagence. There is a great amount of overeaction and abuse as well... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: still, as i had said in earlier postings: things are changing: i had openly said in quite a few turkish gatherings (some political ones) that the genocide did occur and that we would get nowhere in armeno-turkish relations without adequately addressing this issue. i said this numerous times where ex-military types had been present, and i am still alive and well, and have not been harrassed a bit by anyone. turkish armenians have openly said in television programmes that there was a drama that their people had gone through that was not adequately addressed (hrant dink of agos), and they urged the government to say something (the patriarch). things are changing, and faster than we might think. I understand that things are changig (yet somehow officially and even unofficially they are also largely the same.) Certainy, as you attest, there has been some lightening of prohibitions for just discussing the issue. When i visited Turkey in 1992 I talked to many Turks frankly concerning the genocide - and many expressed condolences to my family and sorrow - others, of course were defensive and blaming of Armenians... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: and at these times of change, we need intelligent individuals capable of starting - and sustaining - constructive dialogue until peace is finally made. agreed quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: we must also not forget that the peace effort will hurt a number of people on both sides financially and professionally (i mean the genocide industry of the armenians and the "we are under attack" industry of the turks), and these people will do their best to turn the clock back (i am horrified to find myself saying that, but they may attempt to turn it back to 1915). Yes, these are forces that will do what they can to maintain status quo - they will cause problems I know... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: what i am going to say now may shock some, but my working knowledge of the issue, acquaintance with the political and other state structures of turkey, tell me that the army can actually play the decisive role in the rapprochement, if they see the perceived threat to turkish territorial integrity gone for good. Well, I don't see any credible threat against Turkish territory from the Armenian perspective. Sure many individuals talk of return of lands - this is just not practical and will likely never happen. I think Armenians that think this will occur are deluding themselves and Turks (such as your army) that fear such are equally delusional and paranoid. I have often argued with Armenians concerning what Armenians would really return from their wealthy lives here in the West to the scrublands of Eastern Anatolia etc? Armenians are ultimatly a practical people - where is the good business in this? I don't see it on any significant basis (Armenians are already fleeing Armenian in great numbers). I think that Armenians and Turks must look to other avenues for accomadations. But what has been done cannot be undone - but at the very least it needs to be acknowledged.. quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: for anyone interested, this might be an interesting discussion. Very much so - Armenians need to better articulate what it is that they really want - what will satisfy them. Turks need to be less automatically paranoid and defensive in general - thinking immediatly that Armenians are somehow only after "their" lands - etc

Ali Suat - as always very well said. Your perspective is refreshing and I think a correct one. Over all I do not have any fault with any aspect of these recent statements of yours. We need more (Turks) like you I think - and more Armenians who understand and appreciate such and who understand the limits of what might be possible. Just the same - the actions of your government in regard to the Armenian Genocide recogntion (etc) still suck (and I'm sure you understand this) - and must be opposed - just had to say it just the same... Winston

quote:Originally posted by timucin: With all due respect, is not this the history section? Or, is there confusion about the present meaning of what history is supposed to be, as opposed to the 19th century practice of what we today call creative writing? At any rate, as novel writing, this is very good, as history writing nothing,it is nothing to be taken seriously. t. Timucin, I understand why you are not comfortable with this type of writing. And granted, on its own, it could easily be taken for a sensationalised account. However such observations were reported by diverse (non-colaborative) sources and all tell very similar stories - such that I beleive they cannot be discouted just based on their narrative style. And again, as MJ has asked - do you indeed dispute the truth of these observations? While such accounts may never provide answers to the causations and development of the overall sitation in Anatolia before/during the war - I think they are invaluable accounts that document the methods and environment of the crimes commited against the Armenians. And again I question your motivation for rejecting such out of hand. Winston. [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Regardless of the subject of our discussion, I think very few Armenians may qualify as Christians in the evangelical sense of the word. Besides, it is impossible for nation to be Christian or not. Christianity is a personal category. yes perhaps - I have always felt Christianity was a very demanding religion that most (claimed) adherents could never really hope to live up to... Of course your comments - spoken like a true believer eh? And as for nations not being Christian...I thought you were a Republican...what gives (LOL)

MJ - keep up the good work

MJ - yes I see your point. (but its also a spoil sport attitude...LOL) I could also see the sacrifice of the lamb as symbolic of Jesus's sacrifice...just as taking sacrement - blood and flesh etc (though in a somewhat more symbolic form if you actually beleive that the wafer and wine is actually the blood & flesh (I forgot the name of this phenomon...a not untypical type of belief in various religions) I understand your critique concerning the Armenian Church...but do you go far to say that Armenians who follow such practices/doctrine are not/cannot be (true) Christians (I hear this sort of thing all the time from some of my evangelical/charismatic friends...and perhaps the essence of their arguments has a kernal of truth - from that perspective) - Being a non-believer myself though I see many of these debates etc as somewhat silly (and such re-enforces my warriness concerning such religious beliefs - not that I need any re-enforcement for my skeptisism/non-belief...LOL)

quote:Originally posted by MJ: OK. I guess this exchange between us is much about nothing. You got (lost) me really...perhaps you need to be more explicit (LOL) I don't know if you think I said something disparaging towards you in some way or such - if so I am sorry. Again - I think you are doing a great job here (just a little draconian and perhaps overly critical [and competitive it seems to me] at times). Just the same - I think Steve has some very serious and legitamat points...(and I think you are considering them more than he believes you are - IMO) I also think he has some personal problems dealing with people (I sugggest you peruse some of my more detailed comments to him on Thorny's forum to get more of an appreciation of this if you care). I am (or more accurratly could be) hurt from some of the accusations Steve has made towards Armenians - not that they are necessarily all wrong - just perhaps exaggerated/overgeneralized/meanly said etc - and I think these comments are out of line (but I also think that this is just Steve - not ideal in terms of compromise, consideration and civility). Anyway, I think I am missing what you have been trying to say to me. Do you think I have been a troublemaker or such here in some way? If so - I will but out I guess (maybe - no firm promisses) - but I can respect your wishes if you think I am being counter productive or such. So what is it? I'm confused.

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Actually, I was referring to your next posting. clairvoiant are we? LOL

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Aghtchik, for me, it just insults my intelligence to observe a pagan tradition presented as a Christian ceremony, when the essence of the ceremony itself disseminates the meaning of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Your joking right? I'm no expert on Christian ceremonies throughout the world - Orthodox, Catholic, whatever....but I do not that a great deal of them - and of Christian obsevances and folklore in general (even that written in the Bible) has roots in pagan (or otherwise non-Christian) teraditions, practices and beliefs. There is no such thing as a "pure" practice or whathave you. Why is it an issue anyway? Shouldn't there be aspects of ones religion that are fundemental deep held principles and beliefs and another aspect (less imporatant - but sometimes a lot more fun) that is concerned with ceremony and traditions and such? Such ceremonies are useful for providing common focus for a particualr group - it is part of who they are...so what's the big deal anyway...let people express themselves and have their fun I say (otherwise we would all be a bunch of puratanical A*holes - and who wants that really)

MJ - BTW - the words of wisdom comment (it just struck me that that is what youmight have been asking me to be more explicit about) is/was in reference to my moniker (THOTH) and your interest in it the other day....

MJ - What has nothing to do with me personaly? (I'm joking about the harrasment)

MJ - My reference is to all heros being flawed in some way. They are only human are they not? Thus by definition... (Hey MJ - isn't there someone more interesting around to harass....? LOL)

quote:Originally posted by MJ: What a hero... And what is unusual about this? Perfection is only in fairy tales - right Steve?

Aghtchik, thank you - your words are truly words of wisdom (and I should know - right MJ?....LOL)

MJ - agree with your points. THOTH is/was the Egyptian God of knowledge/wisdom/science etc etc (sort of their Prometheus or Enki)

Steve - regardless of the degree of admiration I have for you and what you are doing - I think you have some real problems...

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Tooth, No problem. Sorry if I sounded rude. I didn’t mean to. No not rude (but it is THOTH please...LOL quote:Originally posted by MJ: Anyway, the bottom line regarding the Ani quarries is that the detonations are stopped for about two months, now. Yea - OK - agreed. Though it would be nice to know if indeed such activity was impacting Ani (as Steve suggests - and he was on the spot over time...etc). You know that the Turks will make an issue of it - so the Armenians should be prepared to defend that the activities were benign (if true)...and if not - they should display the proper humility and sorrow for their (perhaps boneheaded) actions...etc take care

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Tooth, feel free to appeal to your experts (you don't need our permission to do so, right?). Well - I only offered if you or such felt you needed such input (its not such a big issue with me) BTW - perhaps the term "shockwave" has different meanings - I'm sure I've heard my meteor & earthquake chasing friends refer to such in a very differnt capacity then the narrow definition that you are using....

MJ et al, I am no expert in shock waves or in potential for architectural damage from such etc - but I must say any force (such as blasting from mining...or for instance an earthquake or bomb blast) can produce shock waves through the air or ground that can be potentially (very) damaging. I don't know if such blasts as were occuring in the quarrying would produce such at damaging levels to the distance of Ani - but it seems to me that it is potentially likely that they could. I personnaly know someone who is a recognized expert in blast effects as related to civil defense/bomb shelters that I could refer this question to if more data were available. I also know some folks who were at Cal Tech conducting meteor shock wave effect expirements (wild stuff - with the big gun!) who also may be able to shed some light on these possiblities if it really is an issue of whether or not this type of damage is possible...shall I make some inquiries? (how much do you really question that such damage is possible?)

Well obviously there have been certain American Jewish organizations that have joined on with Israel in this idea that Turkey is to be supported (at our expense) - and this is unfortunate - it makes them (Jews) an easy target for those (generalisers) looking for such. But of course this is not the whole story. There is the case with the Jewish scholars/etc who placed the full page add in the New York times last year supporting Genocide recognition and I know of Jews who have written Congress persons (like Cheryl Kagan) protesting their words that were not supportive of Armenians etc. It is a mistake to lump Jewish people and groups into one block and say "they" do/say this etc - its just not that way - anyone who says this does not personaly know Jewish people - thats all I can say. The Maries of this world are just Jew haters - their hatered and depravity in this regard go so far beyond the norm - you could not imagine. they have advocated a new Genocide against the Jews, post pictures of Zyklon gas canisters and talk of making them into cat food and such. (I ask is this the type of behavior from someone who is truly sensitive to the Genocide of Armenians - can one really be so callous about Jewsih victims whose fate/experience was so similar?) Sure, anyone might have a good point here and there (that yes certain Jewish groups or persons, like Peres, etc) have done or said some things against Armenians - etc yes sure - but anyone with any sophistication knows it not so simple - there is no international conspiracy and such - come now. They see a Jew behind every rock - and they will go on and on ad nausuem about such. Is this really helping the Armenian cause(s)?

Harut, understood - your point about them being harmful to us & do not ignore - unfortunatly we cannot control where they post etc - its the nature of the internet. When they first arrived at Diaspora forum I warned folks - but they play to Armenian nationalist feeling. The fact that Diaspora is moderated now is entirely due to their presence. I have tried to reason with them - I would be happy to repost some of my measured overtures to them along the lines that you sugggest. The response I have always recieved is that I am a traitor (and I do admit I hold perhaps some non-standard views of things), etc followed with attacks upon my person. You are welcome to try - and your efforts may give us some amusement (their responses) - but in the end the effort is totally futile.

She is part of a small group whose hatred of Jews is their call in life. They use issues such as the Armenian Genocide to further this hatred and attempt to sway others. they see the Jews as behind all nasty things in history - including the Armenian Genocide which they predictably blame on Jews. Even the cold war to them was a massive Jewish plot. Their logic (not) is often quite amusing - but their views and expressions on the web are not. She and her cronies (she is actually a follower of ISA/Ann Frankenstein/other aliases) should be ignored. They offer little of value - you should not get drawn in by their hype. They are harmful to our cause and will only create animosity from others toward us. they are haters and cheap conspiracy theorists nothing more. They are no better then the fascist Turkish and hard-lined Jewish elements that they claim to despise so.

Kazza - you have quoted me I see - but are you talking to me (or the general audience etc) in your comments - if it is to me then I suggest you read what I was trying to say over again (as I understand and agree with the points you have made - andd these were some of my points as well - just said differently). If your comments are addressed to others and are meant to elaborate on what I said etc - then sorry - my misunderstanding....

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: A number of Armenians I know seem to thing anyone who disagrees with their particular viewpoint or agenda is "anti-Armenian". Is it their paranoia or inflated ego that leads them to assume an attack on one is intended as an attack on all? Steve Granted - but neither is the cause I think. More it may have to do with an Armenian notion of friendship (that I have observed) - friends don't disagree about strongly held personal views - as an Armenian you are in it together - (and if an Armenian holds a view - it is a strongly held view). Armenians are also very judgemental people - and they judge their views to be the correct view - always. If you dare disagree - you are almost challanging an Armenian for what he is - its very personal. (I don't know if I have articualted it well). Its likely a trait we absorbed from the Turks anyway... Steve - do you actually like Armenians at all? Or just our buildings/artwork etc?