THOTH

Edna's is Armenian coffee produced somewhere her in the States (I'll have to check the packaging & give you their address/contact if its on there). Its a very very fine grind - for Turkish/Arabic style - with all of the yummy sludge in the bottom (gets all between your teeth however...LOL). I will sometimes blend it with Columbian or Puerto Rican (only available in Puerto Rico unfortunatly) - makes the best coffee imaginable! You should be able to get Edna's at many of the little Armenian Grocers in Hollywood/Glendale or wherever - I'm sure I did...very sure actually. quote:Originally posted by Azat: I don't think I have ever had Puerto Rican coffee, but it must be similar to that of Jamaica and I do love that. However I do not like Kona coffee. It has this sour taste that I can't seem to get over. Where do you get Edna's Armenian coffee? I did not know that Armenia even produced coffee. I thought it was 100% imported.

Yea - agree concerning Starbucks...I prefer Edna's Armenian coffee (familiar?)...or 100% Kona or Puerto Rican (Alto Grande!) or a good quality French or Columbian roast (depending on mood - desire for smooth versus just plain good and strong) - Starbucks is far overated (though perhaps goes down better if one is laid out on the table along with a member of the opposite sex...)! Never had Peets - heard it was good however...(I'll judge for myself thank you...though your recommendation is noted) McDonalds etc in Turkey...reminds me of a conversation/disagreement I had with this Turkish guy who was exhorting the fact that Disney was planning to build an amusment park near Antalya - he thought it was the greatest thing (for his Turk pride etc)...I could only think (and express to him my sadness) of how Antalya would be ruined/overun etc. We defeated a Disney Theme Park attempt right here near where I live - they had (secretly) bought the land and were ready to move foreword on their plans...I knew (that all the old money rich people in this area) would defeat it! Ya! Take that Mickey! quote:Originally posted by Azat: Thorny, you mean American cultural icons like McDonalds and Starbucks have not taken over Turkey yet? Consider yourself lucky. Starbucks coffee is not that good anyway. Peets coffee is MUCH better.

"World Series" - well its an American tradition (which ain't gonna change) - what can I say...and a bunch of our football/baseball teams etc are named for derogatory slurs about (native American)Indians...so what of it? Anyway, I would put our "World Series" baseball champion up against any other team - even composed of the all stars from the rest of the world...and I think you would likely see the "Yankees" (I hate that team actually) on top - would that satisfy you? LOL I'd be worried about the connotations us Americans get when we think of "Turkey" if I were you...LOL Actually reminds me of how my friends & I used to harass (good naturedly of course) a Turkish friend of ours in junior-high school - "Every Thanksgiving Tunc eats Turkey with a shovel" we would taunt...well it seemed awfly funny at the time...(and it pretty muched enraged him...)LOL [ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Steve - I think you somewhat overstate your case. Sure everyone always has a little envy/dislike etc for the guy who is on top...and perhaps the US often acts in ways to perpetuate ill will by statements/actions that show arrogance/pushyness vis a vis the rest of the world (I think Kyoto etc is being very short sighted [& arrogant])...but "hates our guts"? - I don't quite buy it. (so wake me up why don't ya...) Yea - I can see that the US is a big target for (both justified and unjustified) critiscism - in many areas...but I think thats only natural - being #1. (and by saying such I am just acknowledging fact - I'm not saying that the US is any better than any other nation per se...)...and you might be suprised to find just as virilent opponents of US policy and actions right here in the US...(both administration specific & in general) You must also realize that George W. didn't even manage to snag a majority of the voters here - so many are not lock step with some of his (administrations) more questionable positions and attitudes. Thats just the way of it in a democracy - its really too much to expect absolute consistancy and like any democracy forign policy is often subjegated to domestic concerns - sometimes somewhat cryptically as far as the rest of the world might be concerned...and some of these domestic priorities might certainly seem somewhat off base or just silly...beleive me I understand...). And I understand why folks abroad might get upset at many of the stances and approaches of the new administration - many folks here at home aren't all too happy either...and I can certainly share many of your concerns. That being the case - what would you have the US do much differently than the way it does it today? And specifically - what can the US do to cause others to hate us less(in your opinion)? (I can suggest some things of course but since I am still sleepwalking here I thought you might do a better job...) Bottom line though (IMO) is that folks will still dis the US (as current top dog) and it would be pretty difficult to not acknowledge that indeed the US has a disproportionate role & interest in goings on in the world due to its position/reach - economically, politically, militarily etc - so its unrealistic to expect that the US won't take an active-leading role (leading to some resentment). Could we (our leaders) be more educated in our views - more inclusive - sure - I agree, but other than that what do you think the US should be doing differently? quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: The fact that my statement was not understood is just another example of American blind ignorance. I am refering to an entire nation suddenly wakeing up one morning with the realization that everyone else in the world hates their guts. Perhaps the sleep analogy is the best and most polite way to come to terms with American attitudes - there is no point trying to reason with people who are asleap. We (everyone outside America) must just wait for them to wake up, and hope it is not too late whan they do. Meantime - sticking verbal needles into them as often as possible might encourage their awakening. Steve PS. what to you think are the chances of some old WW2 mine floating into Genoa harbour and ridding the world of Bush and his cronies? Probably nil - but we can dream. LOL - you are not the only one with concerns regarding Dubya...Your wake up America statement could have many interpretations I think...and I don't think the interpretation we all had - that you were refering to economic issues was an indication that we don't see where the US is/might be rubbing others politically the wrong way - it was a valid interpretation (perhaps you could have elaborated a bit as to what you were getting at). So when we in the US wake up - what truly changes? (how far off the mark do you think "we" are - I am curious?)

Mike77 - It is my understanding that the nuclear facility (forgot its name - begins with an O) was not operational. It was (to be) the type that would have the Iraqis to enrich uranium to weapons grade...in hindsight I think the Israelis did us all a favor - though at the time I remember thinking it was a brazen act - hard to justify....In any event it was not an attack on population or such - nor did it threaten the regime...and it occured over 10 years prior to the Iraqi "response"...I don't dispute the fact that Israel has done some pretty outrageos and objectionable things in its defense...however, if I was an Israeli - surrounded by hostile nations vowing to destroy Israel, etc - I could certainly understand taking what some might think is extreme action in my defense. Obviously, to a great degree such action has worked - to defeat the threats & "cow" the Arab states...just as obviously such action has generated enemies and caused great eminity from the Palestinians (& others such as Iraq etc) which only leads to more problems. I think it is well past the time the Israel changed their way of doing business vis a vis the Arabs/Palestinians...but again they still have the seige mentality - legitamatly or not...

Well welcome Ashnork. I think that one can certainly be a Christian and be a good person too! (LOL) Though I do agree that we should question our beliefs (our own & that of others)- and I for one find many of the underpinnings of Christianity to be a bit shaky - and some of the underlining concepts (regarding the nature of God & his relationship to man etc) to be downright repulsive (and unreal). (but thats just me). I also often feel that "who am I too question someone elses revelation"....(Zen or otherwise I guess...LOL). (though I have never had such - nor have I seen that any who have really know much more - if at all - then the rest of us - nor do they seem to get any noticable preferential treatment...)But as long as others are giving their 2 cents concerning the order of the cosmos etc - I'll certainly chime in my bit - and while I may critique your beleifs - I would never preach to you that I had any answers per se (BTW Vahan ..if its a Zen book...why is it titled the Tao of Physics and not the Zen of physics?). I do happen to think that Taoism is pretty cool and often urge folks to check it out....but what do I care if any of you actually beleive any of it and I am not even saying that I do...but if I choose to live by its precepts - or some subset of them - well thats my business isn't it now? And I don't really take to kindly to someone telling me that what they have chosen is somehow more correct or the only truth & BTW I will be punished eternally for not following their particular way (thats a laugh really).... On a related subject - I really think the Armenian church is in trouble (at least here in the States) - (young) folks are leaving in droves...and they can't get American Priests, and Armenian Priests seem a pretty wierd lot in general, and the politics of it all is pretty horrible (at least these are my casual observations....)...so perhaps its no wonder that folks are wigging on Zen, TM, Karma Sutra & the Dao (etc)...eh?

Yea - a rude awakening for some I supose (LOL) - the young yupsters will need to learn how to actually do work perhaps and those who were expecting meteoric returns will have to get more realistic (I suspect most of what was "lost" was previously recently "gained" anyway...though I certainy took some hits...nothing catestrophic however...). Oh - I agree BTW - but I'm not sure we have seen the last of e-commerce & the like - in fact - as the web transforms (and it is about to drasttically - soon - IMO - with wideband/video and perhaps a departure from a page based paradigm...etc - we will find many new ways to utilize the medium (and make $ off of it) ...folks may be a little more leary of investment however and at least should not expect instant returns on nothing (I think this is a good thing). So while I see things moving slower now (and of course there could always be a catastrophe to really shake things up...) for the most part I'm unsure about what will cause our near term "rude awakening" - unless Steve is the new una-(atomic)-bomber or some such or if Bin Laden starts gas attacks in the US or some such.... quote:Originally posted by MJ: I would add the "e-commerce" bubble on the top of those points that you have made above. The current deterioration of the economy is partially attributable to its bursting.

Boghos/Steve - perhaps you are both correct (I am interested in your reasons for saying such however). Obviously though - if the US economy gets hit - so does that of the rest of the world. The following article and editorial speak to the interconnectivities of the global economy (with that of the US) and some early signs of trouble. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2001Jul17.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2001Jul17.html I for one think that we have been riding high due to reletively stable (not rising) energy prices and the influx of cheap goods from China (and to some extent the rest of Asia)...can we still expect both (perhaps)...obviously if either of these conditions is impacted inflation will again take off. And of course there are other fragilities...otherwise I don't see why the "awakening" will necessarily be so "rude" (for the average American)...but, of course, one can never know the future...

quote:Originally posted by vahan: zen is the ultimate flowering of humaan consciousness..Mind is dropped,existence is experienced no words no description..eyes filled with thoughts loose their clarity,mind filled with thoughts is a junkyard..No superior intelligence is required ( a Ph.D may miss it,and a simpler mind may see it..)What is required is CLARITY of vision,your mind is a construct of your illusionary ego..tame it..and start to see truth as is..not thru your preconceived ideas ...let me explain.. Ultimate flowering of human consciousness...while I understand the beefits of meditation...and clarity in thinking etc (which I totally lack...LOL)...I reject the Eastern philosophical notion that true enlightenment can only be attained through nothingness. This is an illusionary construct I think (not saying that it cannot be a platform for insights...however I don't think by doing such one will truly unlock any universal truths concerning our reality...except perhaps by chance/insight...though almost by definition - IMO - this must be based on soe prior knowledge - expanded upon in a novel way..versus from pure enlightenment... I find it odd that while normal buddism concentrates on the physical here & now - the reduction of suffering in the (physical world)...the Zen philosophy/outlook rejects such (physical base things) altogether. While Zen might have its uses - it seems to me to be a very self-centered/selfish practice and does nothing to advance the state of the miserable masses nor the advancement of humans a s a species etc. - thus it is a niche practice at best IMO. I can understand becoming "one" with something (and have this capability...it is possible to suspend precondition if you relax your mind). And I agree logic and empirical methods have limitations...as we are limited in perception & understanding. And your "experience the moment" & life here & now & such is all well & good & I subscribe to it - but it is equally (if not more so) limiting than the Western religious concepts. Neither - IMO- hits upon universal truth or covers all guidance for what we as individuals and as a society/species etc should do for ourselves and the whole. I feel that in picking one and promoting it to the very end you (and others who do such for other beliefs) are limiting themselves (are not being open to enlightenment [or the little enlightenments] etc). While I can approve of your journys of personal discovery through Zen - your claims seem to me to be vast (and unsupportable) overstatements). Yes - perhaps we can only describe reality as we percieve it - and our perceptions become/are our reality...but i reject that we have the capability to know "reality" - it is by definition to vast and too beyond our ability to percieve or comprehend - at best we can only understand our slice (if even that) - with Zen you may understand more of your slice (as you work at such) - but it is no more than that - you will not have all of the answers - none of us will - so accept it and enjoy what you have.... [ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Paul - Harp is indeed a most beautiful instrument - I have a friend who has played his harp for the Pope (at least twice) - he is quite accomplished (though is deaf - at least largely - though not completely so). I can see why its the preferred instrument of Heaven... Speaking of again....As for your dreams of Heaven - thats fine if it is what you need to be happy/content. Sounds a bit unlikely (almost unfathamable really) to me I must say...do pets have souls to go to heaven? If Heaven is on Earth - is this post-apocolyptic or some such? (I can underrstand the concept of creating Heaven on earth - but of course I envision a more temporal type of place [with losts of strong drink & free sex & stuff!] Could you really speak to aposotles (what language?)...and what would you really say to them? ("nice weather we're having"...etc) Are you sure that George Washington will be in Heaven (and all of the others)? Have you really contemplated your planned (eternal) life there? Won't it get boring - all disembodied tea parties & such? Can you really keep entertained, and behaving within the rules, to the end of time? Will I be able to have sex with old girlfriends? What if you get bored with girls after milenia? If I started liking guys would they kick me out? (theoretical question...) So many issues...is there a handbook or something?

I don't buy it - sorry - the whole concept seems rather silly to me. I have seen no proof or evidence of any creatures with supernatural powers of any kind. I specifically see no evidence for disembodied types nor beings from other dimensions or such. Regardless - I suggest that there are more pressing issues & dangers. Please remember to buckle up when you drive, quit smoking, look both ways when crossing the street, and remember to eat your garlic (helps fight the aging process...LOL). Really, I think too many people worry themselves with these sort of bogeymen (and all of the apocolyptic stuff) and lose sight of the real problems, dangers & dilemas facing us as individuals and people in the world today. As far as I see it you have one life to live - and thats here and now in the flesh & blood - make the most of it. Yes - treat others with love, kindness & respect - etc - but not to prevent yourself from burning in hell (please) - but because its the right and compasionate thing to do (oops I better watch it or you will think me a Bhuddist....ehhe). Christian Heaven sounds awfly boring anyway - I mean do you really like to sing hymns and pray all of the time - keep your voice hushed, be good & the like? Our vices are fun! They make us human and unique - they make life interesting. Somehow I fail to see the joy in being a disembodied spirit in any event - I would miss my body - the exertions of it - the challenges of living - the sensual perceptions etc etc (think about it). Wishing for a nirvana in some other life seems like quite the cop out to me. You have a lot riding on your faith - and I wonder if you have really thought it through. I have - and I have no fear of eternal punishments - nor of unseen devils and demons etc - somehow I think I sleep a little easier at night than those who might worry if they shall be chosen or not & such....and I certainly do not fear thetans or such - whatever - unseen beings who might possibly torment us. Humans torment themselves pretty much without the need for such creatures...and what is their motivation to do so anyway? Tell the next Demon you see to leave you alone and get a life!

Karine - Iraq fired SCUDs against Tel Aviv - strictly civilian terror target. Israel was not involved in Gulf War. (and was kept out after the strikes by extreme US pressure)

MJ - just read your July 7 post - very well said (I am in 100% agreement) Karine - sure some of what you say is true - but it is really not so simple. I cannot think you could beleive that USA is in fact a greater villan (to Iraq & the rest of the world) than Sadddam (be real). Why did Saddam bomb Israel one may ask? And why did the US bomb Iraq? Sure US was defending oil supplies...don't you think they should be defended? Are you interested in seeing the collapse of the world economy anytime soon? Talk about suffering...etc Think about it...

Yes Paul - quite a practical consideration. However, next time you are besiged by such I suggest a Barreta or Glock 7 or such (silver bullets optional) - because as we saw in the Exorcist and in Dracula silver crosses are not always effective either... quote:Originally posted by Paul bunyan:The Zen religion cannot protect you from demons

quote:Originally posted by Kazza: I think sometimes people just get busy..shame. If you see him around anyway.. I still remember that forum that he started, and I think he used to come on here too. Well about religion that's just my basic general veiw. I do beleive, like most male-dominated things, they use the religion as an excuse to opress women. I also beleive most of the modern day double-standards are rooted from religion too. becasue it makes out women are only useful for the set roles that they are meant to be in instead of people in their own right. I think from the few males that truly beleive in this are the insecure ones that are scared of women really. Yea - Ararat is a great guy - miss him not around as well. I agree with everything you have said above... quote:Originally posted by Kazza: But religion is a very good and useful tool if you know how to take the good things from it. I agree to a point - problem is that it quickly becomes "us or them" versus external folks and often a tool for internal repression/retaliantion/obtaining advantage (of females/percieved devients/folks who have something others want...etc) - so I see that there have been great crimes commited in the name of religion - and religion used for justification of such... quote:Originally posted by Kazza: But people get into religion because they want to accept it as "all or nothing". once I opened up a topic just going on and on about it and others gave their ideas too. It's in this forum and is called "religion, god, and what people think of it", if you like to browse though it. I'll give it a look at some point - the topic does interest me...& I understand the "all or nothing" - on several occasions I have commented to Christian friends of mine that I thought Christianity wouldn't be so bad if they just didn't take the Bible so seriously...(LOL) quote:Originally posted by Kazza: I hear a lot of devil worshipping still goes on, and meduims and such. I hate it when people dabble in the occult when they haven't got a clue what they might be messing around with. Well - the occult (in its myriad of forms)and devil worship are two very different things - IMO. (I have studied various forms of occult a great deal - though do not practice or believe per se) Of course many Christians will falsely IMO) label it as the same - and label Paganism (or worship/practice of basically any other religion besides their brand of Christianity as Devil worship/inspired and such - even regarding other nominally Christian sects...I have often heard (fundementalist Protestant) folks attribute Catholoscism and/or Mormanism etc as essentially Devil Worship...LOL). First you have to beleive in a/the Devil for such - no? (do you?). I don't at all - nor do I believe in (any kind of) spirits & such (only perhaps archtypical in nature...and that is only our way of personifying/relating IMO)...I see no evidence or reason to believe in any form of disembodied spirit or soul (or demon/devil)or such - seperated from the chemical processes of the body...). And would you beleive that Wiccanism or Crystal (new age) stuff (whatever its called) and such is "Devil worship"?...how is this different from use of Christian talismans/elixers, holy relics, sacred sites, speaking in toungues and such? If you supose that man is limited (in his ability to percieve the truth of things) as compared to God or Satan - could we not all be fooled into believing that what we percieve as proper worship etc of God - is not in fact all a trick of the Devil? I could make many arguments to support such...(almost with IMO - overwhelming evidence...but I will leave this to your imagination at this time...) quote:Originally posted by Kazza: I personally like the anciant greek pagan religion with the gods and goddesses on mount olympus it's the best. Only joking. I think the religion of the Greeks - through use of allegory and archtype to explain natural phenomonon and teach behavoral lessons etc is just as valid (and I agree - more sensual) than/as Christianity (for explaining the truth of the cosmos [and all the more pedestrian stuff] to the ignorant masses of humanity - LOL - [who truly believe] and for the rest of us - who can absorb the lessons as they are intended and are applicable...and enjoy all the nice stories as well (everyone enjoys a good tale - eh? Blood & guts, betrayal, sacrifice and heroism, getting the girl etc etc...its all in there and pervades all these type of religious texts...have you ever read any of the Hindu "stories"..Uppinshads (sp) and others? Great stuff! quote:Originally posted by Kazza: Seriously if you were in the right class in those days the lifestyle was the BEST! Always true in any age...don't you think the super rich have it pretty good today? (and with sanitation & anti-biotics) Or are you missing slaves & such - total control with no guilt/remorse...? LOL - take care - Winston (THOTH)

Steve - I for one see a big difference between the use of "Holocaust" to indicate a particualr event etc and the use of "alleged" before Armenian Genocide. First i reject that "alleged" is generally accepted (most folks aren't even aware of the Genocide at all in any event. Secondly, "Holocaust" is prewtty much accepted (right or wrong) and use of such has no where the impact (and falseness) of "alleged" before the Genocide. While I understand Fahdi's points I don't think the semantics is such an issue - there are plenty of examples of use of a word that may have been used previously for a more generic purpose to describe some particularly intense example - regardless if it was the first or only - etc. I don't think that use of the capital "H" necessarily superceeds any legitimacy etc of other Genocides (though i understand the effort by some to use it this way). I am familiar with the campaign to eliminate Sebs by the Nazis and their supportes (mostly Croats I had thought) and that the Kosovo region is a historic Serb area of some signifigance. Regardless - the issue for the 1990s is that ethnic Serbs have resorted to violence - including mass slaughter and round ups of people etc to achieve there aims - regardless of the past history this is plain unacceptable (IMO). Reports of such are absolutly NOT propaganda. Sorry - untrue. Do you advocate that Armenians (if and when able) begin a scorched earth genocidal campaign against the Turks in Eastern Anatolia to regain their ancestral lands? This is how I see the Serb actions in Bosnia and Kosovo. I do not reject your comparisons with Artsahk - but its not like we can turn back the clock - we have to live with the realities of today - and we need to work towards peaceful solutions to these problems - and not violence. People have to learn to put aside certain aspects of past animosities and learn to live together - otherwise the tragedies of the past will only be repeated and new groups of embittered survivors will be born....

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: I found the whole "genocide commemoration" earlier this year to be extremely repulsive - so repulsive that I don't wish to remember it in detail in order to cite my many reasons for finding it so. (Sorry). Steve I interpreted this as a general comment concerning April 24 commemorations - as you use the term "genocide" and not Holocaust etc. If you meant only the one commemoration of which you later speak than OK - but my read of the above statement of yours was a more general application.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Thoth - if you had an interest in reality then you would understand the objections to using a capital "H" for holocaust. The word is not the exclusive property of Jewish/Israeli pressure groups, it existed long, long before 1940 (indeed someone from the Roman empire would recognise the word and its usage). In the 1920s Churchill used the word "holocaust" to describe the Armenian genocide. By your use of the phrase "The Holocaust" you ally yourself with Armenian genocide deniers. I reject your contention that just due to use of a now commonly accepted term "Holocaust" I am in league with Genocide deniers. (and that I don't understand the issues aurrounding the use of this word). You obviously don't know me nor are you familiar with my activities on the web or elsewhere to make such a statement. I am familiar with the prior uses of the term "holocaust" including the Churchill quote. However the use of "Holocaust" with a capital "H" preceded by "the" has entered our lexicon as the commonly accepted term for the Genocide of the Jews and others by the Nazis and there is really nothing you or Armenians can do or say to change such. I think one can accept this term as a name for a specific event without denigrating the genocides etc that other groups have experienced. Its funny, I know one Holocaust resercher who laments the term - claiming that Genocide is more discriptive of what happened and that holocaust is too vaugue. So to me it is all semantics - what is important is a proper understanding (and acceptance) of the events and their significance/impact and a clear understanding of the motives, methods and effect of such by the perpetraitors on the victims. I think you are out of line by attacking me and others for using what is basically an accepted word (regardless of how it got to be so)...were you having a bad day? quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: My opposition to "National Holocaust Memorial Day" has nothing to do with the exclusion of Armenians from it. That was an unimportant detail for the overwhelmingly critical opposition to it - an event that was considered a bad joke amongst anyone with brains in Britain. I do not wish to see the day when shops sell "Happy Holocaust Day" cards. The Armenian support for it was particularly pathetic, given their initial deliberate exclusion from it. But that was to be expected - the community's leaders had already sold its soul by its support for NATOs invasion of Kossovo. I am not familiar enough with the specific of the event to comment. However your initial statement was directed at genocide commemorations in general. Do you stand by the statement - that you regard such commemoration etc as worthless? or do you wish to be more specific of your critisism and perhaps show us a little humanity and understanding of/on this issue - because again - I beleive your comment and subsequant pouncing on the use of the word "Holocaust" was out of line... So your a supporter of Milosevic and (violently expressed) Serbian nationalism - etc? You care not that innocents were being exterminated by means reminicent to earlier genocides - you really think NATO (or the West in general) should just have let it happen? In fact I advocated action years earlier - when such events were occuring in Bosnia. (and as I have had access to very first hand accounts of what occured there and in Kosovo I feel fully justified in my support for such action). In fact my plan (to stimulate the Europeans into action) was for the United States to unilaterally offer to airlift Turkish armed forces into Bosinia to protect the Muslims there. LOL - What better way to light a fire under all those milk toast - only motivated by pure narrow self interest - without any moral backbone to speak of Europeans...Sure the (methods of) prosecution and (particularly) timing of the NATO campaign may have been faulty - but I do not beleive that any rational and feeling human could just advocate doing nothing in the face of such crimes. Armenians, IMO, should understand this more than most...are you some kind of Orthodox solidarity kind of guy without regard to right and wrong? I am interested in your characterization of why supporting NATO in Kosovo constitutes selling ones soul....

How dare you claim that I am not interested in reality (you divine this from use of a word?) and how can you presupose that you know anything of the Holocaust events that I speak of. While I am familiar with the exclusivist controversy (no Armenians) of the memorial event of which you speak - and I condemn the exclusivistic attitude in general of certain Holocaust proponents - in no way does this diminish the very real tragedy and UNIQUE (in certain important respects) aspects of the Holocaust and denigrate any commemoration of it. As I said before - I have attended some very moving commemorations - accompanying survivors of concentration camps whom I know and with people who were there to hear their parents names and brothers and sisters names read off along with others who were loaded on the same box car by the Nazis. The ceremony had real meaning and impact - I fail to understand how you fail to appreciate this and how anyones use of a capital "H" (which has become an accepted usage) infers not being interested in reality. quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: There you go again with that capital "H" holocaust. But that says it all, you are not really interested in reality. These events bastardise history and thus insult the memory of the victims they allegedly commemorate. I think you also know nothing about the specific event I am talking about (President Blair's "National Holocaust Memorial Day").

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: I found the whole "genocide commemoration" earlier this year to be extremely repulsive - so repulsive that I don't wish to remember it in detail in order to cite my many reasons for finding it so. (Sorry). Steve [/url] ) Well then you obviously fail to understand a number of things on a fundemental level - why descendents or survivors would wish to commemorate their slain families and keep the memory of such tragedy alive. I have attended Holocaust related rememberences and found them to be very powerful (and approprite IMO). Do you attend funerals Steve? Do understand why people do so? Do you see no value in pressing Turkey for genoside recognition? Should we all just forget and move on? Is it acceptable for crimes to go unpunished? etc. You have disapointed me with this comment.

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Dear Thoth, I don’t fool myself. But I don’t necessarily agree with you that the treaties you mentioned are designated to benefit particular corporations. As a rule, in countries where the labor environment is very lax the productivity is also low, and the political and other stability is also questionable, the currency problems are rampant, the credit problems are rampant (thus the cost of financing is high), etc. These are tings that corporations don’t like. Well - these treaties do a number of things on different levels (some good certainly) - however, I suspect much is crafted for certain advantage. Such as to more easily allow access to cheap labor and environmentally lax locations to set up low-mid skilled manufacturing businesses...while not in this category look at the explosion of cheap Chinese goods in the markets worldwide - using cheap labor etc...plenty of folks are making big bucks (and the cheapness of the products is holding down inflation...) There are oppurtunities such as this in free market nations as well (with Western corporations hoping to reap the profits...) quote:Originally posted by MJ: I agree that nations have to have the choice of which elements of their culture they abolish and which ones they preserve. However, cultures are also dynamic phenomena. They evolve and change. But nobody can forcefully change any culture, at least over a short time horizon. In particular, I don’t see how, for example, the US may change the culture in Mexico, as much as Mexico may be economically dependent on the US, today. Sure - nothing is stagnant. However nations ussually have traditions/practices etc which they like to perpetuate as it makes them what they are..etc. Sometimes nations, like France, want to keep agricultural production on a smaller scale because the French greatly value high quality produce...well these things can be threatened by cheaper alternatives (that busy/hurried people will likely utilize...some of this is already happening)...its a cultural choice to prevent this - in order to perserve something worthwhile - perhaps intangeble to traditional economics (perhaps not)...(are you familiar with the writings of economist Thorestein Veblen?) (may have his name slightly off) quote:Originally posted by MJ: I don’t think that the Mega-conglomerates need to destroy the local businesses. If things are done properly (and each country has a government to regulate this process), the local businesses may still be a big part of the overall national economy based on the value that they generate. The market economy, unless there are artificial levers, puts everything in its right context. To the contrary of what you allege, I think the local businesses may significantly benefit from the mentioned above conglomerates. And the competition should not be eliminated. It has to be maximally encouraged. On the other hand, if the native business is unable to grow and claim market share, produce the necessary products, provide people with jobs on its own, what’s the use of it? No they don't need to - and I am not denying the (many potential) benefits either. The lure of the (easy & seductive) western way (and the Disney/Hollywood/McDonaldization of the world) is often too much for nations to resist - the result with be homogination of culture - inevitable to some degree...and we are all in for much larger changes on the horizon in any event...(so what can really be done anyway...? Turn Amish?) quote:Originally posted by MJ: Speaking of the Noble Prize, I think it is one of the most corrupt prizes on its own, along with the Oscar. So feel free to reveal to me your plan, please. My lips are sealed for the moment...(However, I agree somewhat concerning the Noble prize...) quote:Originally posted by MJ: You say above: I am totally in the opposite camp - our environment - our earth - our home - once destroyed will (likely) never be the same. We only have a limited insight into the true damage(s) we are doing....If it is a religion...it is one that is tangible and "correct" (LOL)...mankind has had and is having enormous (negative) impact... I am with you on the subject of cherishing the earth and preserving its soil, atmosphere, pristinely, etc. However, I don’t see much of an evidence, other than some isolated episodes, where the modern corporate world has threatened the environment. In fact, I think the opposite. The current technological advances only reduce such possibility. The dangers of environmental damage are more of an actual issue in technologically less fortunate countries. The implementation of modern technologies produces or frees up cash reserves which would allow greater emphasis on the cleanness of the industry. Additionally, the growing “white color” lifestyle and the army of its representatives are becoming increasingly more aware of the importance of the environment. But the resources of the earth have to be exploited, have they not? Only they have to be exploited in a reasonable manner. Be it in Russia, India or the US. Maybe our political system doesn’t indeed encouraged the system you advocate. But it is resulted from the hijacking of the political process by the left and right-wing extremists, including the environmentalists (sorry ). Basically, the moderate, reasonable, thinking, constructive people are driven out of the political system, or are simply disgusted by it. The politics is sort of being left to one-issue extremists. There is plenty of evidence - retreating glaciers and warming of oceans are clear (in a very short timeframe)nand measured. Forests & Jungle are being lost - desertification is occuring...our climate is changing - rapidly...I have recently seen reports where certain scientists indicate global warming seems to be happening more rapidly/severely than earlier predicted. While I may agree the "proof/causation" may not be 100% ironclad - it seems very likely (IMO) that we are the cause - and the consequences will be most severe...do you really think we can ignore such? Sure developing countries without controls are high risk pollutors. Don't think that the developed nations are all sqweeky clean however - and we are polluting in more ways than we even know/acknowledge (related issue of potential dangers of genetic manipulation of foodstuffs etc....promiss as well of course...but...) Not exactly. Certainly we have seen manufacturing shifts...but with increased demand there is need for increased production…and once again shifted away from nations with stricter controls/oversite for labor/environment etc. I don't want to say to developing nations - "no you can't" - but in order for our earth to sustain such on the grand scale we must revise many practices ("or else"...I beleive...) Be more specific, please. I am not following you. [/QB] As demand increases so will production. Sure much is just shifting from developed to developing - but our industrial output worldwide is increasing - and we should be concerned over the impacts (more industry with less controls). I think human industry in general is potentially threatening to the (fate of life on) earth. We must encourage development and use of mitigating technologies and practices. quote:Originally posted by MJ: On the environment … Actually, I didn’t have a doubt that the evidence you allege exists in Science Fiction/Science book. On a serious note, however, there is no such evidence contrary to your claims. There is only a hypothesis, and the scholars of the field are divided on the issue. As a person of scholastic training, I cannot take any statement of the kind at its face value. After all, the burden of proof on the existence of an “overwhelming approaching environmental Armageddon” is on the alleging side. It sounds much like the Armageddon at the end of each millennium. Cheap shot. Great book BTW - particularly for those of scientific/scholarly backgroud. It is based on some very real science (with of course some [potential] projections) - it will cause you to think a bit...Again - I strogly disagree that there is no evidence for such phenomenon... Again I disagree. There were only so many ancient trees & the like to produce our carbon based fuels - evidence is that we may run out within our lifetimes....(heavy shit...). We need responsible usage (restrictive to what can't be done other ways...and huge investment in alternative energy research & production....NOW!) quote:Originally posted by MJ: There we go about energy again. What projections and what sources of information is this statement based on? Or is it based on a feeling? Or what is the time horizon you are talking about? 1000 years? Maybe you are right in that case. However, such projections are meaningless. And what do you mean by alternative sources of energy? Is the nuclear source one of them or not? Do you know that significant research in the area of alternative sources of energy has been done in the last 20 years? Why do you want more research in this area rather than implementing what is already known. And why are you not skeptical about the alternative sources of energy (bio-mass, etc). Nobody knows their impact on human health, either, if it is exploited in large proportions, right? It is my understanding that we are about to exhaust our known petroleum reserves within the next century (at current usage). Certainly you would agree that the supply is finite - no? thus our way of life - as currently envisioned - is not sustainable. Alternative energy research and implementation is underfunded and undersupported in general - IMO. Yes I include nuclear (you must) in this - however there are mitigating issues with safety and waste disposal...doesn't necessarily mean "no" - but must be implemented better. quote:Originally posted by MJ: If your comment regarding me being Republican mean a Republican party member, then you are wrong. However, I embrace most of their agenda with some substitutes from the Libertarians. But in some very broad sense, I am indeed very “Republican” (I think a true Republican ). In that sense Libertarians are closer to being true Republicans. But this doesn’t qualify me for abomination, does it? I have sympathy for Libertarian values...though fundementally I think human society has outstripped "pure" application (we have grown in numbers and in means of enacting violence and other crimes while not developing morally or such to keep pace - IMO) I am often suspicious of the motives of Republicans yes - and I abhor some of their programs/solutions (primarily in the social policy arena). I also can't spell. quote:Originally posted by MJ: [QBP.S. BTW, we are deviating strongly from the original topic, even though the original topic had no merits in the first place. Do you want to open a special thread, perhaps under the International forum, and move this discussion there? [/QB] up to you (though you have labled environmentalism as a religion...so I have no problem keeping it here)

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Thoth, No, I haven’t seen the movie. But I think I know the Wall Street from personal acquaintances. Don’t have a positive or negative attitude towards it. Both exist there, I think. Movie is well worth seeing - (Oliver Stone...for better or worse)...its a good one though - nice insights. quote:Originally posted by MJ: Regarding corporations. The way I understand is not preferential access but equal access. That’s what the free trade and the other provisions associated with NAFTA and other treaties are about. Don't fool yourself...first of all many of these treeaties are expressedly designed to allow corporations that are located (HQ) in more restrictive labor/environmental/safety environments to circumvent such...all that being said I am in favor of "free trade" (and breaking down many/most barriers)...don't get me wrong...we must read between the lines however to see what is going along with such...there is also the issue of cultural/societal perogatives. A nation should be able to determine what parts of its culture/economy it wants to hang onto...as tradition or to support a part of its population & their way of life etc. And nations such as the US (or perhaps more accuratly Mega-Conglomerates based in...) have severe advantages over the much smaller native concerns...should they be freed up to undercut and destroy these others (then raise prices etc later once competition has been eliminated? and such... quote:Originally posted by MJ: Even in the US, with its market traditions, the system is not purely economy based. The government fulfills regulatory function. The regulations have to be directed at preventing and prosecuting the unfair and harmful practices. understood...much more can be done (and there is also the issue of corruption)...in fact I think the US (and other) governments could use environmental clean laws (applied not only against manufacturing etc but for acceptance of products/services in the marketplace) to stimulate the economy and to regulate trade (and stimulate other nations to follow suit - to ensure clean industry etc). I have a plan - but if I reveal it to you now I may miss out on my Noble Prize or some such quote:Originally posted by MJ: I think the issues regarding the environment are taken way out of proportions. The environmentalism on its own has become sort of a religion and a way of making living (for the environmentalists). I am totally in the opposite camp - our environment - our earth - our home - once destroyed will (likely) never be the same. We only have a limited insight into the true damage(s) we are doing....If it is a religion...it is one that is tangible and "correct" (LOL)...mankind has had and is having enormous (negative) impact... quote:Originally posted by MJ: The fact is that the market driven countries are environmentally more conscious then the state controlled economies. Nobody has polluted the way USSR has done, or China has done. agreed...but we are resource hogs are we not? When people have a say/can influence government - they are going to say "hell no not in our back yard" (pollution/dangerous testing etc)...even in Russia we can see a growing environmental movement that has already had some impact. quote:Originally posted by MJ: I do agree with your statement “but we need leadership with vision, humanity and incentive for long term thinking.” A bit of "mom & apple pie" I realize...still our political system(s) does/do not encourage/foster such... quote:Originally posted by MJ: I don’t think that there is a negative impact from increasing population/nations producing & consuming & wasting at US/European levels. Primarily because if other nations would approach producing at US/European levels, that would automatically reduce the production levels in US and Europe. Not exactly. Certainly we have seen manufacturing shifts...but with increased demand there is need for increased production...and once again shifted away from nations with stricter controls/oversite for labor/environment etc. I don't want to say to developing nations - "no you can't" - but in order for our earth to sustain such on the grand scale we must revise many practices ("or else"...I beleive...) quote:Originally posted by MJ: As far as the Global Warming goes, I am not aware of such evidence. There is such hypothesis, which needs to be confirmed, first, before crying “wolf,” I think. Few decades ago, similar scientists (to those supporting the notion of Global Warming) were claiming that the earth temperature is going down, and a new ice age is arriving. I remember these theories. The fact is that the world climate goes in cycles. There are daily, seasonal, yearly cycles. But there are also cycles of somewhat like 10-year duration. Understanding of the patterns of the climate is undoubtedly a high priority issue, and it has to be encouraged by all means. Evidence is there and near overwhelming at this point - and it will only get worse & quick (glacier melt & sea temperature rise most significant). Sure there are natural shifts (how frequent/durations etc?) - and we will always be at the mercy of these...but we are clearly impacting in a major way (perhaps soon beyond easy recovery). The impacts wil be enourmous - costly & hazardous (in a very many ways)...The (originally Ronald Reagan) approach - "more study needed" is a clear cop-out...the evidence is in and is clear (IMO) - we need to act now (and there are other issues such as nitrogen polution of the oceans & acid rain which are likely to have severe [potentially catestrophic] effects as well). I recommend to you the Science Fiction/Science book "Timescape" by Gregory Beneford...(at least look up the synopsis at Amazon or such) quote:Originally posted by MJ: I don’t think that the oil will run out soon. Clearly, the existing oil wells and refineries don’t have adequate for our times capacity. But there is ample oil in the world, which needs to be extracted. It is a different issue that it needs to be extracted in a responsible manner. Again I disagree. There were only so many ancient trees & the like to produce our carbon based fuels - evidence is that we may run out within our lifetimes....(heavy shit...). We need responsible usage (restrictive to what can't be done other ways...and huge investment in alternative energy research & production....NOW!) quote:Originally posted by MJ: I think we certainly should care about what the world is turning into. However, I think it is turning to a better place than it has been in the past. In some ways not saying much (LOL)...mostly agree though (too easy) quote:Originally posted by MJ: P.S. I have taught for a while at a university level (math). I see. BTW - didn't realize you were a Republican (until now)...LOL

Kazza, I have had very little contact with Ararat recently - (I have thought perhaps my stands concerning religion/christianity may have had something to do with it...but I think not..he is a good guy, and has known my position [and has seen it stated most harshly...]) He has been scarce on all forums (that I see) of late...so who knows... BTW - nice post concerning religion - some very good points. Obviously (most all) people need religion (of some sort) - it fulfils many needs actually...and your comment concerning women is mostly true - though not for all religions (again, I refer to Taoism...LOL!). Most religions were developed by men (in part to perpetuate/legitimize the power structure....) Western/patriarchal (sheparding peoples based) religions are specifically hostile to women (in general) and to religions where women play(ed) more prominent roles (the agrarian based paganistic (more fun!) type religions). Notice the prohibitions against reverly in celebrations (only watered down a bit for inclusion upon absorption of people with other beleifs). Note - the pagan gods all have become demons/devils etc ...and the fertilization rituals (so vital/significant for agricultural peoples) - where women play a centralied role (obviously) are on the "out" as it were. F*ckin facists!

MJ - I just saw (again) the movie "Wall Street" on cable last night..."Greed is good"...LOL (have you seen it? Good flick...eye opening in a number of ways... quote:Originally posted by MJ:THOTH, I don’t see the current corporate expansionism as a greed based phenomenon. I think it is a rather positive thing for the world population. The "issue" in my mind is nations attempting to secure preferential access to markets...not bad in and of itself (but is leading to competition and potential uncertainties...politicaly...militarily (who knows whats in store...) However, I think the purely market based world economy may/will be bad for humanity over the long term. Focus on the "bottom line" - short term profit etc - without regard to where it is taking us (humanity) - impact on the environment, use of natural resources, exploitative labor situations, perpetuation of elites at the expense of the many etc etc. We (humanity in general) are in a unique position of power/wealth/technology in this time - we can ensure a sustainig developing future where the prosperity & well being and technicval development (to the stars I say!) can be (perhaps) crafted and sustained...but we are proceding without vision...slaves to technology development driven by market forces...who knows where it will lead. I would never advocated a centralized system as we saw with comunism...but we need leadership with vision, humanity and incentive for long term thinking...etc quote:Originally posted by MJ:There is obviously a disproportionate concentration of wealth in the world (what’s new about it, right?). However, most of the world lives under misery. Such a picture is resulted from the segmentation of the world economy. Under the scenario of the elimination of such barriers I think the wealth may and ill propagate to the most disadvantageous corners of the world. Would this mean that the current owners of wealth would become wealthier? I think so. But so what? Why should it bother one? The issue is not that they would become wealthier, but that the devastated from poverty regions of the world would be lifted up much like Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea , etc, have done. Yea, do we care...could we change such if we wished (don't know). And what will the global impact be of increasing population/nations producing & consuming & wasting at US/European levels? Can the earth sustain it? Look already at the Global (Ocean in particular) Warming and other environmental indicators (not to mention the new disease vectors...)...and the oil will run out (soon). What is to be done? When will it be too late? What are we turning into and turning the world into...shouldn't we care...? quote:Originally posted by MJ:Armenia is not an exception in this sense. It has two choices – to accept the foreign corporations on its soil or to continue the current status quo. In my view, the only party who shouldn’t be interested in allowing the corporations in should be that 5% of the population who enriches itself at the expense of the misery of the nation. Obviously, under the conditions of open competition a large portion of that 5% may be diminished in terms of its viability since it cannot operate in such conditions and contribute to the growth. For the rest of the population I don’t see alternatives, and I don’t see what else they may lose. Agree (on this level...short term/narrow consideration...but for Armenia of course the issue at hand) quote:Originally posted by MJ:To address your other question, yes, in the past I have held academic positions, including teaching. University level? What field(s)? I sense some reluctance to say too much (understood)...

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: After reading this thread I think I will stop accusing Ara Baliozian of calling us morons I think he was rather right... Hovik - I think you are correct - LOL (and about the sensors for quakes & nukes...many independently manned BTW - not beholden to East or West as it were) All of this is pure speculation basically without merit (IMO). MJ is correct - the "so-called" evidence (sorry, I hate that term too...but it fits here) is weak and unsupported. Releif workers ware masks due to disease from the dead, etc etc. (and so many "facts" presented are just plain wrong...) It is nice to speculate....and these capabilities (to trigger faults by various means) are certainly theoretically possible and perhaps have been attempted on a small scale - however if they were able to do so with any level of predictability this would be occuring to releive stress fault build up in many areas...remember big bucks are at stake...