THOTH

Follow on to above post (of mine): I do beleive that the Armenian culture has intrinsic value and that it will survive (Westernization/assimilation)...in some form (as it has survived everything else...much tougher even then this). I think there are more fundemental things for (Diaspora)Armenians to be concerned with. One is the fate of their brethern in Armenia which is in a really percarious situation and needs our help - and as a rallying point is good for maintaining Armenian awareness in the Diaspora. Another problem i see is with the Armenian Church(s)...by and large they suck! (and this is not so much my opinion as my observation and from much talk with friends and reletives who do attend and are active with various Armenian and other (having chosen to leave the Armenian congregation) churches. I beleive the Arnmenian churches have a great deal of necessary reform that they are avoiding. They are loosing/have lost (much of) their relevancy and there is the problem of the supply of priests - particularly here in the States (but I think in Europe too)....(so perhaps every Armenian in Armenia can becaome a priest and supply the world...essentially what is happening...good for job prospects - but bad for the church in the Diaspora - these guys are frequently like our budy Arthur - they are out of touch)...lets see - other problems - there are many I supose - but nmost of you probably know these better then I. It is just my opinion that too much concern is placed over this idea of assimilation - a problem that you really cannot do anything (effective/directly) about. It is going to happen to a certain extent - this is inevitable (and is not necissarily a bad thing either - for a number of reasons). What I am saying is that I think there are more direct problems in the Diaspora/community that require dealing with - as opposed to wasrting breath concerning something you will have little success with....(something like me trying to convince Turks concerning the Genocide I guess...LOL...but I actually have had [at least some] sucess there...and I would hope the momentum is in my favor...)

Mehderian - very well said. I think if the culture has intrinsic value it will survive - if it does not - it will not. I see nothing (inherrently) wrong with holding to traditional ways (in most things) nor with marying within ones culture - in fact I think its great. I also think there are positive aspects of intermarrraige betwen "race" and culture, because, as you have said (more or less) - we are all one people (in a sense). The sooner we learn to appreciate one another the sooner we will stop killing one another. Those who only advocate marrying (or even just dating) within ones own race/culture are also (often) just the sort that advocate killing (or otherwise denigrating) others because they practice different customs, look differently, or are otherwise "not like us". And we have quite enouth (too much) of this already.

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Thanks, Sip... More or less. It is fundumental... Catholicos can't be a woman, the defender of the land shouldn't be a woman. Woman as mother associated with tenderness and purity, the risks are left for the man. If you change and put woman on the top, this would mean woman should take all the risks and decisions, and man should sit there under her protection with kids. You can't throw woman to fight against Turks, while you site with kids... can you? If you say yes, then THAT would mean the biggest disrespect to women. So there are differences which God put between man and woman... if you don't believe in God... then change the word God to nature. Best of luck! Artur [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Yes, I agree - how naive you are. Somehow I don't see childbirth as all tenderness and purity. It takes strength and determination beyond that which most men can/could handle. So on that basis I beleive women should be in charge - hows that? really now - I supose I can't blame you for wanting to hold onto the power - who wouldn't - or I should say - who - that isn't enlightened or secure in themselves - wouldn't. Im my mind its high time that men like you are put in their place. Sure i believe there are differences in the sexes - and if we agree on that then why not let the natural process of things sort itself out - without imposing arbitrary restictions - I mean what are you really afraid of (its losing power/control...because without it you really fear you have nothing else). yes - no need to be kind, caring, considerate yourself - no need to show the children such - just order the woman to do it - and to get your coffee and rub your feet too. I find these type of attitudes disguting (and I am a man) - just as I find slavery in all of its form abhorrent. You just don't seem to see that these values you espouse and hold so dear are akin to that of slaveholders who also rationalize why they are superior, why thigs are as they are and have been, and why there is no reason for change. If you say you do not believe in superiority of the male - then how can you say that the man has the last word in all things (to prevent arguments -are you really trying to say that your decisions are so superior that they cannot be improved upon by the input [or veto etc] of your spouse? Again if you are saying this you are only displaying your fear of losing control. What - don't think you will win the argument(s) - if not then perhaps you aren't so superior after all - eh? No - your another "might makes right" type of guy - just like the (Young) Turks in 1915. Enjoy your good company.

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: i think i have proved that the family should have a strict structure and hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no arguments. But God forbid this doesn't mean disrespect. Woman should be treated and respected by her husband the highest. Regards, Artur Hope you don't think you have actually "proved" that...like you "proved" the Bible to be perfect perhaps... I imagine an honor killing could be interpreted as showing "respect" for the women...from your point of view of course...

quote:Originally posted by hagarag: When the Turkish government "comes clean", then friendships could develop between Armenians and sensitive Turks such as Ali. I don't disagree with your points - except that I don't believe that friendships between people are ever obviated by anything a government might do...at least not by definition. I have many Turkish friends and see it as no big deal - at least it should not be - either way really...

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: No excuse at all whatsoever to date outside of the race. What is it with people looking for assimilation? Funny coming from you...wonder what your father's excuse was? Lucky for you he was not so closed minded...

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: About Bible, i think it is the only perfect book to know and learn how to live. Have obejections? Please - (read this if you dare) http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm and http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/contra...ons/cindex.html Another excellent one: http://home.att.net/~j-buckner/tough.html Here are some good ones from the last site: Biblical Values: 1. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, why did God lie about what the outcome would be (Genesis 2:17),9 while the serpent told the truth (Genesis 3:5,22)? 2. Why are women treated as chattel and inferior to men throughout the Bible?10 3. Why is the Old Testament and most of the New Testament addressed only to free men, and not to women or slaves? Does God deal only with free males?11 4. Why does the Bible condone slavery?12 5. Why does Yahweh command genocide,13 including the killing of infants? Why does he command that all women who have "known a man" be slaughtered, but the soldiers are to keep the young virgins for their own use (Numbers 31:14-18)? Why does the Bible portray Yahweh as worse than Hitler (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)? Isn't it blasphemous to call the Bible "God's Word," when it libels him so? Oh and here are some more: http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/...tsr/index.shtml http://www.talkorigins.org/

HaYaStAnRuLeS - Yes - and Stalin made the Soviet Union great too.... Nothing you have said contradicts my points. MJ & Fahdi - Good work on Karabakir...

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: BTW So far i can see only one Armenian girl on this forum which can be called an Armenian. Regards, Artur Somehow I can see the Taliban saying the same thing....about women who show an ankle in public, who don't cover themselves completely from head to toe, who dare to talk with a male they are not related to, about women with a 2nd grade (or better) education, about women who speak their mind on anything...etc etc...you keep very good company sir....

Ali - I understand what it is you are saying regarding Ataturk. Believe me - i have taken much grief from various Greeks and Armenians for calling him a great man and stating that I wish the Armenians had have or could have such a leader. Regarding Smyrna however - I think the evidence is clear. I leave you with some quotes that I gathered (primarily from one book "Smyrna 1922 - The Destruction of a City" by Marjorie Housapian-Dobkin - a book that has one critical acclaim for its historical accuracy and unbiased approach (I recommend it for everyone interested in the story of Smyrna) In his book - “Maresal Fevzi Cakmak” – Turkish author Suleyman Kulce credits the burning of Smyrna to General Norredin and his Turkish regular troops who took possession of Smyrna on 9 September 1922 (Smyrna fire began on 13 September 1922 – well after the withdrawal of all Greek forces). Nourredin “..was responsible for the massacres and the fire.” The general exhibited a “myopic outlook”. Another Turkish author – Falih Rifki Atay wrote: “Why were we burning Izmir? Were we afraid that we would not be delivering ourselves from the (sway) of the minorities in case the mansions, hotels, and cafes were left to remain? Driven by the same fear we put to the torch all the inhabitable quarters and neighborhoods of the Anatolian cities and towns during the World War I Armenian deportations.” Atay expressed his “revulsion” over the actions of the Turks over these actions. He specifically cites the bigotry and “penchant for arrogance and cruelty” of General Noureddin who he blames for the fire, adding that Kemal (Ataturk) was evidently unable or unwilling to prevent his actions. American Consul George Horton (who was on the scene and was in fact a long time resident of Smyrna) stated (in a report to the US Secretary of State dated 26 September 1922) that: “..the (excessive) conduct of the victorious army..instead of protecting the helpless people which it had in its power, deliberately set about massacring and outraging it.” Nino Russo (a ship’s engineer in an Italian battleship anchored in Smyrna harbor during the fire) states: “There were so many bodies in the water you couldn’t count. Everybody, …all the bigshots, the Capitan, all those people going back and forth to shore, they knew and they reported that the Turks were burning Smyrna. All the crew, we all knew it was the Turks."” US military intelligence report from 1922 regarding the conduct of the nationalist army in Smyrna: “”..discipline was excellent and maintained by fear of superior officers, by brutality and example. …moral…maintained by the desire for loot. Armenian and Greek shops were the first to be looted.” Lietenant Merril (US Marine in Smyrna during this time): “Looting soon turned to armed robbery.” Italian Consul Count Senni (in Smyrna during this time) reported that Kemal was meeting with his aids to decide on the disposition of the Armenians. By the next morning the Armenian quarter was surrounded by a cordon of Turkish soldiers. By afternoon a proclamation appeared: Anyone caught concealing an Armenian in his home would be brought before court martial. In the Turkish quarter there were signs that the populace was being roused to action. British Sergeant Major Fripp (also in Smyrna): “All the looting was most orderly” Marjori Dobkin (In her book titled “Smyrna 1922 – The Destruction of a city” writes: “News that Turks were killing Armenians in the back streets poured into the consulates all afternoon. In the streets of the Armenian quarter Turkish forces proceeded systematically at their task of flushing out the population. Women and girls were raped, knifed, or pursued into the streets, where they fell prey to other gangs. Men were either murdered in their homes or lashed together at the wrists and led away to be killed at the edge of the city.” Major Davis of the Red Cross (from Smyrna - in a cable to Admiral Bristol): “Refugees must leave the country or be taken away. Safety of life not assured. Believe this is final decision of the Nationalist Government as solution of the race problem.” Asa Jennings (assistant to the YMCA director at Smyrna): “People were injured and killed…the Turks shot at anything that moved.” French officer in Smyrna noted on 13 September 1922: “The Armenian quarter is a charnel house. In three days this rich quarter is entirely ravaged. The streets are heaped with mattresses, broken furniture, glass, torn paintings. Some young women and girls…have been taken away and put into a house that is guarded by Turkish sentries. There are no men in this quarter; all are dead, or hiding, or they have been taken away.” Consul Horton: “There seemed to be a definite plan to clean out the Armenians and to deal with the Greeks at their leisure.” Reverend Abraham Hartunian (survivor of Smyrna and other massacres) in his diary: “Today (Monday, 11 September) I saw with my own eyes the Turks taking bombs, gunpowder, kerosene and everything necessary to start fires, in wagonfulls here and there through the streets.” Marjorie Dobkin” Just after midnight on Tuesday the wind shifted its direction away from the Moslem quarter and a gusty breeze began blowing toward the harbor. A rash of fires broke out within an hour.” Miss Mills (from the Smyrna collegiate institute): “I could plainly see the Turks carrying tins of petroleum into the houses, from which, in each instance, fire burst forth immediately afterward. There was not an Armenian in sight, the only persons visible being the Turkish soldiers of the regular army.” Sergeant Tchorbadjis (Smyrna fireman): “…saw a Turkish soldier, well armed, setting fire to the interior…In all the house I went into I saw dead bodies…At another house there was a girl hanging from a lemon tree in the yard. There were plenty of armed soldiers going about. One of them went in where there was an Armenian family hiding and massacred the lot. When he came out his scimitar was dripping with blood. He cleaned it on his boots and leggings.” Fireman Emmanuel Katsaros: Upon noticing several Turkish soldiers pouring petroleum into a house and attempting to stop them was met with the reply: “You have your orders (to stop the fires) and we have ours. This is Armenian property. Our orders are to set fire to it.” Chicago reporter John Clayton (who had previously reported favorably towards the Turks, reports from Smyrna during the fire): “Except for the squalid Turkish quarter, Smyrna has ceased to exist. The problem of the minorities is here solved for all time. No doubt remains as to the origin of the fire…The torch was applied by Turkish regular soldiers.” George Horton: “The Turks had plundered, slaughtered, and now burned the city because they had been systematically led to believe that they would not be interfered with.”

HaYaStAnRuLeS - I don't disagree with your points concerning Ataturk - and I have always admired him as a military genius and as a leader (but no friend [just an admirer] of Armenians) - however I think you fail to understand a fundemental message/goal that Ataturk strived for - Anatolia for the Turks including the concept of supression of any other ethnic/cultural identity and presence in Anatolia. It is due to this campaign that Armenians were never repatriated after WWI - and in fact through his General Karabakir - Ataturk pursued war against the Armenians in the Eastern Provinces - commited additional slaughter and atrocities against innocents - and crushed any hope of an independent Armenia in the East (and even any recognition of Armenian cultural presence there or in Anatolian history). Ataturk is also responsible for the destruction of Smyrna (and its Greek and Armenain population) and the subsequant expulsion of most of the remaining Greeks from Anatolia. These and other acts were calculated with the purpose of removing non-Turkish influence/presence in Anatolia. His legacy/concept of Turkish State/nationalism is also the reason that the Kurds have been set upon so and have had their cultural rights restricted and outlawed and it is a chief reason why the genocide is not recognized to this day (Turkish jingoism). His concepts were mearly a refinement of the Young Turk ideals (being more realistic concerning possiblity for empire and if anything being less inclusive of minority elements). While Ataturk was certainly a great man for his various accomplishments (during World War I, in the founding of the Turkish Republic againt great odds, and due to his success in forcing Turkey to adopt Western ways) - we - particlarly, as Armenians - must not forget the darker aspects of the man and his legacy.

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Thoth, go and cure yourselft... I don't want to talk about sex, as there are many girls here. Learn manners. If you want we can discuss the subject in private though... just let me know... ? What for really? And if you can't talk to girls about sex....well...look I respect your rights/decisions regarding any personal choices you might make...

Hasmiek - what a nice (and very appropriate/informative0 story for us all. Thank you for sharing it with us. And the best of luck to you - it sounds like you will be a great wife/mother/huamn being. Only the best for you. I am an American of 1/2 Armenian decsent. I never had oppurtunity to learn Armenian or such (as a child) - though I wish that I had - but even with the oppurtunity as an adult I have not taken it. I still see myself as Armenian (very much) and think I understand (most all) of the things that make one an Armenian - even if I do not participate in all of them. Certainly not knowing the language is a huge issue - and its great for you that you do. But you are another example of the fact that Armenians can be diverse and still Armenain - I think that this is a very good thing.

quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Thoth, i will start ignoring your posts. Your major issue is sexual fantacies and satisfaction. It is even sick to discuss things like that. Get a prostitute then if you want to have to the full! Surelly they are the best in that "business". I am not going to discuss this sick topic with all respect to all the girls here. Regards, Artur I really wouldn't know (regarding prostitutes...never had to resort to such - though I imagine they are good/appropriate for some people - don't know if I could really...)...I imagine some (very expensive/select) ones are very skilled in what they do and I am sure could/would be quite enjoyable...however if you think this is what I was refering to then you miss my point entirely. Though your comment reminds me of what this (unmarried) older Greek gentlemen (that i knew well) once told/advised me when I was your age - He said (with his arm around my shoulder - as he did when giving me his special "wisdom of the ages" type advice) "Winston, my boy, I wanna tell you somten - never get married - there are plenty of women to satisfy you - all it takes is money - and you end up paying either way - just with less aggrivation" (something very much like that). Well, I propose that he misses the point equally as do you. Obviously there is much more to a relationship between a man and a women then just sex - however would you not agree that sex is (should be) a major component of a relationship between married couples? Do you understand the reasons why some people may not be compatable sexually (or otherwise really - which is why I also advise living together first....heck - my wife and I actually bought a house together first....a sure sign of commitment wouldn't you agree?)- and if they are not sexually compatable the type of (serious) impact it could have on their marriage and happiness? I truly wonder if you do....(and does it matter to you if women are sexually satisfied...in general and specifically when its your turn?). I laugh as I imagine you squirming with this question - but in fact i do see this question and this issue as a serious one and I see your attitude(s) as a real problem.

Artur - I am sorry that you are so ignorant of things and that with your attitude(s) and narrow mindedness you will remain so. I'm sorry to say (for your sake alone perhaps) that the Taliban is on the way out. I am not sure you will fit in anywhere else...as I am sure the next thing you will say is that women should only go out in public if they are covered head to toe as men cannot handle "impure" thoughts. You probably wish communism were back as well...

quote:Originally posted by nellie: This goes not only to Arthur, but to everybody else reading. Where did the belief that women/girls in Armenia are pure, innocent, angelic creatures spring from? Why does everybody think that Armenian girls in the U.S. are no longer holding on to those very important, very much valued beliefs and morals that are so inherent to the Armenian culture. True, one can find many Armenian girls in the U.S. that are--according to society's standards--not worthy of being called an Armenian. However, these women can be found in Armenia as well. Tell me Arthur, what is going to be the fate of Armenian girls in the U.S. if all Armenian men jump on a plane and go to Armenia to get married? Very good points (this one & previous) But on one point you may want to think a bit. Sex prior to marriage - you owe it to yourself to learn what you like and what is good - etc. You don'y want to end up with someone who cannot please you or such - its your whole life you mst think of - would you really wanbt to go through it possibly missing out on one of the great joys of life? I'm not sure if I explained my position well - but basically I think people owe it to themselves to "test drive" before buying...etc. Even if yoiu find someone you love (to marry)...and I certainly hope you do - if you are not compatable sexually...well, this is far less then ideal. I also think that as people get older they begin to wonder what they might have done differently in their life (I certainly am...though no major regrets...). If you only have ever had one sexual partner your entire life I think this may be one area of regret - and one where you may be tempted to act upon it before its too late. If your married then this is trouble. So prior to is the best way - IMO.

Ashnork - very good question. Arturain - who are you to say what a/all/any women should and do want? My wife works - in fact we drive into work together (and take turns driving - she used to drop me off and go on to her job - now its ussually the other way around - but only because my work is now further away). We both share in all duties of caring for kids and doing chores around the house etc. In fact I do most of the cooking (as I am the better cook in general and enjoy it) - though we often divide the meals as we each have our specialties)...and I do nearly all of the food shopping (as I am better at bargain hunting and such when it comes to buying food items...and I enjoy it more then she does). We are happy, our kids are well cared for, they spend a great deal of quality time with both of us - apart and together, and they are being well educated and brought up with excellent values, etc - including respect for all people - irrespective of race, gender, ethnicity etc. And in fact we live quite well. Who are you to say that we are wrong in how we live? Who are you to say that my wife should be limited in her choices in any way?

Ashnork - very good question. Arturain - who are you to say what a/all/any women should and do want? My wife works - in fact we drive into work together (and take turns driving - she used to drop me off and go on to her job - now its ussually the other way around - but only because my work is now further away). We both share in all duties of caring for kids and doing chores around the house etc. In fact I do most of the cooking (as I am the better cook in general and enjoy it) - though we often divide the meals as we each have our specialties)...and I do nearly all of the food shopping (as I am better at bargain hunting and such when it comes to buying food items...and I enjoy it more then she does). We are happy, our kids are well cared for, they spend a great deal of quality time with both of us - apart and together, and they are being well educated and brought up with excellent values, etc - including respect for all people - irrespective of race, gender, ethnicity etc. And in fact we live quite well. Who are you to say that we are wrong in how we live? Who are you to say that my wife should be limited in her choices in any way?

Ashnork - very good question. Arturain - who are you to say what a/all/any women should and do want? My wife works - in fact we drive into work together (and take turns driving - she used to drop me off and go on to her job - now its ussually the other way around - but only because my work is now further away). We both share in all duties of caring for kids and doing chores around the house etc. In fact I do most of the cooking (as I am the better cook in general and enjoy it) - though we often divide the meals as we each have our specialties)...and I do nearly all of the food shopping (as I am better at bargain hunting and such when it comes to buying food items...and I enjoy it more then she does). We are happy, our kids are well cared for, they spend a great deal of quality time with both of us - apart and together, and they are being well educated and brought up with excellent values, etc - including respect for all people - irrespective of race, gender, ethnicity etc. And in fact we live quite well. Who are you to say that we are wrong in how we live? Who are you to say that my wife should be limited in her choices in any way?

quote:Originally posted by Sip: Just to add to something I said above, I don't think we as humans can ever trully know the universe (like we know a computer). Most of THOT's questions above can be answered by "conjecture" but that is all it is going to be! Doesn't your first comment basically also imply that we cannot answer any of my proposed questions (with any certainty)? I'm surprised that my questions have not generated more comment...does that mean that everyone basically agrees we are all equally stumped? (LOL - I doubt that all will agree to this....)

quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: Turks had not committed genocide against the Armenians Justin McCarthy you lie! (It was the other way around - no? This is your position? Note: already well discredited (Marshalian) - as if such a [so-called] counter-claim could ever be taken seriously. Were the Jews underminig Germany as well - was their fate deserved?) quote:Originally posted by Arpa: McCarthy said the French parliament's approval of the Armenian genocide allegations and initiatives in the American Congress to get the claims accepted were wrong. Justin McCarthy you lie! (and as usual you are incorrect) quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Stressing that the Armenians' accusations that Turkey had committed genocide were illogical, McCarthy said Turkey was one of the most important countries in the world and a model country in its region. Justin McCarthy you lie! BTW - some (Irving, Rassinier & others) say Nazis exterminating Jews is illogical....If Turkey's history is to be considered a model for nations in the region - what exactly is this saying? Minorities are expendable? (and there may be a windfall in their destruction) quote:Originally posted by Arpa: He also emphasized that the resolution taken by several countries' parliaments concerning the Armenian genocide claims were politically motivated. Justin McCarthy you lie! (though I suppose all politics/political action is politically motivated...including support to Turkey - no? Though your motivation is just greed and agrandizement I suppose) quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Drawing attention to the fact that the Christian missionary and British Propaganda Office played very important roles in spreading these allegations during World War I, McCarthy said similar propaganda was continuing today. Justin McCarthy you lie! Please tell us what groups are propagandizing for Turkey today and why? Also - elsewhere you are claiming that the proper definition of propaganda is spreading the truth - is this what you are stating (that groups supporting Armenians are doing) here as well? quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Turkey did not commit genocide against any nation and also the Ottomans' religious tolerance with other nations during its rule. Justin McCarthy you lie! (are Young Turk's Ottomans? And please define tolerance...and be specific as to time period(s)) And of course you do not consider that Armenians were a nation - you hardly admit that any even lived in Anatolia - so again you twist with technicalities...and please look up the United Nations definition of genocide...and now let us examine the legacy of the great Armenian nation in Anatolia...where are they sir? Where are their monuments? What became of their culture? How did this happen (means/process)? quote:Originally posted by Arpa: "Although there are 2,000 brochures with the Armenian's claims, in the American teachers' hands they can teach two million children, while there are no documents or brochures concerning Turkey's view," he said. Emphasizing that not only should the state's propaganda be influential and convincing, McCarthy said other civil organizations should take part in the promotional work. McCarthy says: "Send money"

quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: The article stated that I recommended that the Turkish government improve its propaganda. As it is understood in America, the word propaganda has the connotation of lies -- the opposite of what I advocated. Justin McCarthy you lie! quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: What I said in the speech was: My suggestion is very simple -- defeat the lies with the truth. Justin McCarthy you lie! quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: I never suggested or intended that the Turkish government lie. Justin McCarthy you lie! quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: Indeed, there is no need for the Turkish government or anyone else to lie in opposing the so-called "Armenian Genocide." Truthful history is enough. Justin McCarthy you lie! quote:Originally posted by Arpa: Justin McCarthy: I would never lie or advise others to lie about history. Justin McCarthy you lie!

Sip - welcome and nice post. After reviewing the preceeding discussions in detail I have a few things to say: 1)bread (like many inventions) was seemingly an accident For those who have not seen James Burk's TV series' - "Connections" and "The day the universe changed" - I highly recommend them)...and it seems reasonably accepted that beer came first. (based on the earliest writings...a recepie for beer) it seems that the ancients observed fermentation from wild grains that had been gathered and attempted to standardize it and make it more reliably available. Agriculture and the making of bread seem to have been (byproducts) spurred on by developments begun by the desire for a more steady supply of beer (much like the sucess of videos & the vcr [& possibly the internet...not sure on the later] due to P O R N O) 2) Evolution - is observable all around us. It is basically fact - as well as a thing can be known and accepted by man (IMO). Watch a National Geographic (or the like) special on the adaptation/transformation of Birds to certain specific environments (for instance). (The determination of species differation is somewhat arbitrary however - but observable environmentally determinstic changes have been sufficient to cause new species [split off from previous existing] to be named). Also - I have a buddy who does/did genetic work on fruit flies because their generational turnover (life/reproduction etc) is so short and mutations can be observed - specifically including those that take (and thus perpetuate) based on specific environmental advantages. BTW - I have developed a varient on the commonly accepted phrase used to describe the process of evolution: "survival of the fittest" - mine: "survival of the fattest" ...you figure it out... 3) Though I am (self) called THOTH - I do not feel qualified to answer your (this threads) ultimate question - "Does God exist?" (The answer to) this question is well beyond (even!) me (I mean I can't even spell properly...so really now)...and I believe human beings (in our current state of evolution!) lack both mental capacity to properly even frame the question(s) and could not comprehend the answer(s) even if one/they could be had (particularly given the possible characteristcs of such a being/beings/entitie(s)/construct and the process's involved (in Universe/Multiverse/reality creation). I do believe that there is more than one question here (going back to the initial theme) - consiting of some shades of gray and not just black and white. And we might do better dividing them up to focus our (ultimatly [iMO] senseless, but perhaps enjoyable(?)) discussion/debate. Here are some possible subdivisions (and I am sure there are many more): Does/do (a) supreme entity(s) exist that somehow created the Universe as we know it? (sub question - is there really meaning in contemplating the sex {as we know it} to such (a) being(s)?) Do we know/can we really define this universe? Are there others? Did the entity(s) create them as well? Was this a conscious effort or a byproduct of something else (that I think almost by definition we cannot/are not {yet} capable to understand..in any event)? Do/does this being/beings care (about the creation and to what degree? Does it have a purpose? Does it include us? Are we central to it? Is it beyond us? Are we (just) byproducts or stepping stones? Do/does it/they really manage things? At what level? Predestination - fact or fiction (etc)? Are moral issues among humans (etc) really a concern? Do we have them right? Or are they just a human/mortal thing? Do any religious books (seemingly penned by man and certainly not perfect) really describe this/these beings in any way (that is remotely close to reality)? Are any/all (&/or which ones) of the various holy books of man truly inspired/penned by God/the gods? How can we know? Could this/these being(s) be deceptive on purpose? Does any of this really matter (to us)? Why? How can we know? Does imploring the devine for favorable treatment have any real effect? What is/are the proper means (if any)? (ie. blood sacrifice/self flaggelation/prayer wheels/offerings/chanting etc etc) Is fear (of death/punishment etc) truly a noble and sufficient motivator? Can only one version (of reality & God(s) etc) be true? Who has the capacity to ever know which one (?) it is? Where does heresy/blashphemy fit in? How can we be sure that God/the Gods is/are good? (and has/have our best interests in mind?) Can we truly ever really know? Can there ever be a resemblance (in his/their image type thing) and "meeting of the minds" between beings of such obvious disparity in capabilites/motivations/world (reality) view - etc? etc etc I am a Daoist BTW. (we accept not knowing, basically...to [think you] know is not to know type of thing, as it cannot be known...etc) So there are questions - but no real (ultimate) answers. This being the case - how worked up should we really get? Peace. I think that is enough for now - my brain hurts...

superb work (as usual) - can't wait to see more!

I recomment "A Crime of Vengence" by Edward Alexander.