THOTH

Domino - excellent post. We also must not forget Moganthau, Charney, Wielsel, Werful, and the very many more (remember the 200+ signatures form Academics 2 years ago? - a very many were Jewish). And the list could go on and on. Some of us have the maturity of perspective to understand that you cannot just whitewash an entire group/race/religion etc with such negative stereotypes and attribute nastyness to the entire group (this goes for Jews, Turks, Armenians or whoever). Obviously Israel and certain Jewish groups and some - perhaps even many (though I doubt it) Jews have aligned themselves with the Turkish government effort to deny the Genocide - for various reasons - real-politic, exclusivisity of the Holocaust - or whatever. But this is not the whole story - obviously. And when it gets to the level of denying the Holocaust ("they" call it "holohoax" and the like) and blaming the Jews for their own destruction (and who/what does that sound like - as Armenians we have heard such before) - and blame Jews for everying else wrong in the world and in history etc and constantly attribute to this one race behaviors and such that are just purely evil (synagog of Satan and filfth/trash etc etc) - well then it should be clear where such people are comming from - and it is an inditement against those who make such absurd claims - not one against the people they are making these claims against. And it is clear that these types are also of the same mentality of those who would deny the Genocide and hate a particualr race and be racist against them - as we Armenians often hear from braionwashed Turks - atttributing to Armenians as a race all sorts of ills and responsibilities for acts and behaviors to justify acts againsts us and to dehumanize us. As Armenians we shoulld be particualrly sensitive and rejecting of such ugly attitudes - IMO. And if Jews cannot see the same - based on their similar experiences - well then I say it is our role to show them what we have learned - tolerance and understanding for people who are different and compassion for suffering. And in fact - from my exposure - most Jews understand this well - and are highly sympathetic of our plight and of our experience with the Genocide and its denial. Obviously we must not be blinded to politics and the actions of groups who would wish us ill - but there is no need to generalize against an entire race of people etc (I don't know how many times I have made such a post as this to these people - and to them it makes me a "Jew lover" [as if that is necesirily a bad thing) or worse - "traitor", "JDL member" etc etc is what I hear. Obviously anyone with any brains can see who is lacking of understanding of things and who works against our people. So again I say - we must not just sit by and be silent - we must actively reject these people and their twisted ideas. To not do so is tantamount to "saying nothing" when they singled out and shipped off the Jews and when they marched the Armenians away.

Boghos - great post - to start the thread. As I understand it the swatisca has been in use by many peoples throughout the world as a symbol of life/abundance - sun/earth and such all rolled into one. I had some amount of information on this at one time (most on those paper things, you know, that collect dust up on shelves.....ah yes - books! - I'll see what else I can find if any are interested). Don't remember the origine per se (so we Armenians might as well claim it - as with everything else...and there is something to the color TV thing - saw it in Time magazine or such 1-2 years ago...I think when Adamian died [though I could be mistaken about the name])

quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Sip: You could perhaps consider certain religions to be wrong for you however - as I consider Chritianity & Islam & such to be very wrong for me in its overarching absolutism. You may want to put together a list and begin the process of elimination...LOL. And consider this - if you are without sin (or without sin such that the agrieved party or such cannot [easily] absolve - what is the real need for divine redemption? And if you understand science - and why eating certain things or screwing certain close relations etc - is not generally a good idea - why the need for a mandate against such beyond the learning required to know better (and why)? These are questions we need to ask ourselves - IMO (particualrly before "primitive" religion [and you should know of which I speak] holds us back from our ultimate (as yet unknown/undetermined) destiny as a species/planet/etc. quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Sip:

Oh yes of course Marie/Anoush - I am a member of JDL - by your definition. The definition is that you say so....

Ansnork - I don't think it is so simple as bais for or against - nor is it consitant. Remember - much news exists to be sensational and reports will be presented to be shocking or such - and its mostly just soundbites. I do think it is possible to get fairly balanced and at least somewhat in depth news if one is diligent enough (and don't rely just on the TV medium). And all of this talk of Jewsich control/influence in US media - while it certainly exsists - this point - and the influence is, I think, largely exaggerated/overated. Again - there are biases both ways - and if anythin I think perhaps Israel is often not given a fair shake - they are in an extremely precarious situation and it isn't always presented that way - IMO - but perhaps we are all getting numb to this. Likewise reports on Palestinians perhaps mor concentrate on the bad - the terroists etc - then any real presentation of the plight of the people. Just the same I think a lot of information is out there - try PBS. etc

Very nice rendition of the story AR. But I must dissent with your view that the only "good" Armenain is a Christian one (etc). I believe that those who hate others (Armenians and outsiders of any particular ethnic/religious stripe) are in fact the "enemy" among us and can only lead to our demise. Hate and intolerance are (or should not be) attributes of any civilized religion - nor should they be acceptable in any group of people. [ April 05, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Hasmiek/Seaphan - both of your posts present some (fundamental) truths - but not the whole story. Seaphan is probably correct that most Americans do not much follow international news/goings on outside of the sound bite/ugly pictures level etc and most probably don't care much either way as long as gasoline prices don't go up too much (Do you drive Steaphan? Gas seems to already be going up quite a bit recently - no?). Not everyone is so uniformed and/or lacking in opinions however - even if the (mass media news) is perhaps lacking in many respects. Hasmiek - I can agree with most of the things you have said concerning Arafat. I think that your declaration concerning Israel giving up "Palestinian lands" is perhaps a bit too simplistic. Obviously Israel is a nation that cannot just be dismissed. Likewise the extremely volatile and dangerous environment that Israel exists in cannot either be dismissed. Not living there I think it is difficult for us to appreciate how they might feel - hated and under siege such (rightly or wrongly). They have developed an extreme response to provocation that - at least on some level - has worked for them (they still exist). I certainly wouldn't want to live as they do and have to do the things they do to survive - but that's not my choice. In no way either can I support the tactics (and position etc of Sharon) that Israel has undertaken - though I can still, in a sense, support the State of Israel and her people as allies and (for lack of a better word) "westerners" who live (for the most part) by rule of law, Democracy, free markets etc etc. At the same time I believe that the treatment that has been meted out to the Palestinian people has been atrocious and I think that the Israeli indifference to the conditions and rights of these people has been shameful. The Palestinians are often to blame as well. I understand the horrible refugee situation and how the heavy hand of Israel has lead to such radicalism among them. What concerns me is the lack of voices for moderation and anyone really attempting to achieve a workable solution to the problem(s). I thought Oslo and the recent peace efforts - though perhaps somewhat contrived - were a means of hope - a starting point for the future. I thought that perhaps the Jerusalem issue could be shelved for future discussion or such. I think Arafat seriously blundered when he thought he could force the issue. He played right into Sharon and the hard liner's hands. Now that is all ancient history - as Sharon & Co. wished for all along - but at what price? To me this intense suppression of the Palestinians and dismemberment of their security/governmental apparatus can only lead to more chaos and can only inspire additional hatred and extreme counter reaction - it will in no way end the problems - only make them worse for all concerned. Soon I fear it will reach a degree where the other Arab nations may act - perhaps only with economic warfare at first - but can you imagine the consequences of oil embargoes and such on the world's economies now? What can the West be thinking to let Sharon pursue these extreme policies unabated - as if it could actually solve the problems (with no consequence)? And worse still cold be the prospects of larger war (though I don't see the Arabs having the guts/motivation for it just yet - that could change with sufficient internal pressure however...). So I am not optimistic. And I think it is a big mistake for Israel to be so cavalier about their actions against the Palestinians, the automatic support from the West (particularly you Europeans...once the oil runs out...), and (cavalier) concerning their future and ability to prevail under adverse circumstances. Sure, they have been victorious in the past (and the US has always been their for them) - but they are really a very small and vulnerable country and they should not forget this. [ April 04, 2002, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

So very well said TB. quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: I think our sense of affecttion and pride in our ancestors, which forms the backbone of our national consciousness, rests on two main themes: their peace-loving nature (as opposed to being empire-builders), and their unique sense of inventiveness that allowed an "old-fashioned" sense of cohesion to live side by side with an enthusiasm for embracing new "things". Conversely, I would not be pleased to see (if I could) my great-great grandchildren unable to go beyond my "inventions" or my "system of thought". I would, however, be pleased to see them remember, study and respect their ancestors. What matters is the preservation of our tribal identity, not "our ways" as defined at a certain time in history. One of the strong forces in contemporary world culture is to isolate one from one's family, ancestors, and "tribe". There are many, many "tribe"s that are better dismantled and dissolved into the Big Blob. The question that you must answer convincingly is whether you think the Armenian identity is one of them. For me, keeping my Armenian identity is my most effective way of thumbing my nose at all the "bully" cultures of the world. Twilight Bark Much of my thinking on this matter is as you describe. I wonder if it is enough though - however it may be all that is practical. Perhaps there are varrying degrees and some may be able to maintain more of the "old ways" - certainly language being a major piece of this (that I unfourtunatly lack). For without the language the culture and histroy will be - for the most part - just a fairy tale...Still i think the reactionary positions of Artur and Tigrannes are completely untenable.

Well I do think you understand my point then - one cannot easily express everything one may want to say in a particular language. I even think this is true for computer languages - even though they are as you say context insensitive. I seem to recall that a certain language )forgot which one) was used for AI versus others. And can't certain thinks be done in Java that are not possible (or easy) in other "languages" (though I'm not sure Java is a language per se (I'm not a programmer or such in any sense). Many years ago (15+) I stated that I had no interest in learning how to talk to a computer (the gaul of the machine - I mean really...) - but I was interested in a computer that could talk to me (or some such)...so I became an eager Windows early adopter...LOL (& MAC too I guess - though less so - even though I know where the concept was originated [xerox]...etc) Anyway - regardless of whether or not you believe you think in a particular language I would argue that you think in the very least in the sum of the languages (or substes thereof) that you know. I imagine that you may not be able to comprhend certain aspects of desert sand conditions without the proper Arabic (or a long detailed explanation in some other less adapted language) etc etc. I'm sure it is possile that a single language could include words to express all of these things (but as we all have different needs and uses for languages I'm not sure that it would be so efficient - as you suggest - for one to have to learn such a language. In the end I think TB has explained it best - by default English has becaome the commmon tongue...but that does not obviate the need or the reason for other languages - that also serve purposes - if only to remind us of our families and heritage...

Seaphan - I think that you are correct - you don't understand language. I laugh when I say this - because I know only English - but it is clear to me that English cannot be used to express all things and conversly there are concepts expressable in other languages that cannot translate into English. Now try to imagine conceptualizing a complex thought without the language to do so....can you not then understand - the language we speak affects the way we think - how we think - even what we think. It is more then just some optional way to greet other people. Think about it. (perhaps even use an analogy with computer languages - can all things be (practically) programed in only one computer language? Might there not be a need for specialized "languages" or applications...etc?

Intreging idea. I certainly can't complain about it as it may even do me some good (perhaps) - though I'm not sure I am up to learning a language (even if I could and even if it is Armenian). A few questions though - I have seen some com-plain about Armenian translated into non-Armenian (English?) letters - and that its hard to understand - i assume because the writer is writing phonetically and without formal structure - thus up to interpretation. Is this the issue? If this is AN issue - should we not first be taught the alphabet? (I happen to have various depiction sof it around the house - but to me its just artwork basically...though I do enjoy the script (but it would frighten me to ctually have to learn it...language wimp that I am...LOL) Also can one address the differences/distinctions between Western and Eastern Armenian? When did the split begin? Is it due to lnads/folks being under Ottoman domination and others not? etc. Is this rift in the clergy as well (I recall once discussing such an issue with an Armenian Priest who demonstrated how he could read some old Armenian inscriptions on some brass & silver plates/pots etc while our guests (who owned the stuff) - here in the States - could not). Anyway I certainly have an interest but am unsure how good a student I will be. Certainly if others are likewise interested (and you or whoever really wants to take time & effort)... Another thing - what of pronunciation etc. Imagin learning a language (?) ocver the internet then actually trying to use it and pronouncing everything all wrong 9and not understanding etc)...LOL. I'm not certain you can actually pull this off...maybe some very basic stuff...who knows...

Vahan/TB Alas - learning Armenian for me is likely not going to occur. Not that I do not have a desire (on a certain level) and I also understand (in a grposs sense) what it is I lose by not knowing the language (the many things). You see - i have a problem with languages - even English (note my poor spelling even of common/easy words) - if anything it is getting worse. True story - in school I took 4 yewars of French - finally made it to French 2...(even then my Frech teacher advanced me only out of pity...). When I (briefly/5 years) lived in Los Angeles (Hollywood) I lived among Armenians (besides family only time with any regular contact) - all tried to teach me words etc...all went through my ears with no/little retention...(though I am always told my pronunciation is good). So this is my problem. Perhaps with more effort I might be able to master it - but at this point I am not willing to make the effort. The only hope for me perhaps - is the possibility of living in Armenina (or such)...and it is a possibility (though not a great one). If I could - and at this point I have some desire to - the added benefit would be that my children would learn Armenian as well. So we will see. Short of that I do not think they will (soon) learn it - though they will certainly be taught who they are and will discover (I am certain) what that means (and be exposed to aspects of our culture and our "issues"). I did - basically on my own - so I am sure that they will with my encouragement. Not ideal perhaps - but thats where we stand for now...so it is up to those of you more imersed in the community to carry on the traditions...and to better the community and see that it evolves & does not stagnate & die...etc At best I am on the fringe. Besides not knowing the language I don't embrace the religion. I do participate in some commmuity activities (limited) - but aside from my brief time in LA...and perhaps on these forums) I don't have much regular exposure to Armenians (outside of family...mostly, but not all, fully assimilated).

The Turkish protest letter is the best April fools joke that I have heard all day. Besides fitting all of the required elements (false statements proported to be fact) it is just incredibly funny - particularly the list of references and the statements about the Otomman archives, and the figures on the numbers of Turks killed by Armenians, and the....etc etc

quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by THOTH:No doubt (good to see you by the way...and concerning a subject near & dear to me)... Thanks. As you might guess, I was on an expedition to spiritually connect with my roots and to get to understand the true origins of wine. LOL - can't wait to hear more...

Hitler's first mention of Armenians (and another) Adolph Hitler interview with Richard Breiting (who was poisoned by the Gestapo in 1937) , editor of Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten (a German daily newspaper) 4 May 1931: (excerpts) “We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place” “Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever?” “ We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation.” “We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy;” In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination (some texts translate as eradication) of the Armenians (some texts translate as Armenia).” This proves that Hitler was both aware of the Armenian Genocide and was influenced by the Turkish success at "eradicating Armenia" and "exterminating Armenians"

More on Hitler, Armenians, Jews & (Nazi views of) Pan-turanism (another brief essay following the previous) Alferd Rosenberg, Chief ideologist of Nazism (the German Gokalp) stated: “Armenians are even worse than Jews” and called Jews and Armenians “the people of the wastes” Hitler is quoted as saying: “Considering that only a pure consciousness of racism can ensure the survival of our race, we were constrained to introduce racial legislation in such a clear way that such legislation could eliminate all alien racial infection, and this infection is not caused only by Jews. In enlightening the German people with regard to this racial legislation, we should conceive of it as having the task of protecting the German blood from contamination, not only of the Jewish but also of the Armenian blood” Seems strange that he would single out the Armenians – but there is much in common between the two peoples and the Nazi’s were into this Eugenics thing where they measured characteristics (& twisted them around something fierce) Hitler also is quoted as saying: “One of the most famous examples is the downfall of that people who were once so proud, the Persians, who now lead a pitiful existence as Armenians” Apparently Hitler believed that Armenians were once the original Persians – and although they were clearly “Caucasian” they had fallen low by blending with Semitic peoples etc. – thus he saw Armenians as somehow “fallen” Caucasians. It is also interesting how the Nazis saw Pan-Turanism as a threat (and of course an inspiration). Remember – it was the Nazis who returned Talat’s body in 1943 – attempting to curry favor with the Turks (many of whom were very interested in sharing Hitler’s vision). At the same time, the Nazi’s wished to use Pan-Turanist aspirations of the Turks to draw off Russian divisions in defense of the Caucuses (which never materialized) they were fearful of the potential for Pan-Turanism. On 8 May 1942 Rosenburg, then minister of Axis occupied territories in the east reported on a series of discussions with Hitler: “The Fuehrer…asked my opinion about the Armenians. I stated that Armenia was the best bolt between Turkey and the Aserbeidschan and thus could stop a Pan-Turanism movement towards the East. Generally speaking the Armenian people themselves are stationary, a people of farmers who had considerable industrial skill.” Thus, the Nazi’s schemed both with the Turks (Ultimately unsuccessful due to considerable U.S. and British pressure) while fearing the potential competition of Pan-Turanism.

Hitler & the Armenian Genocide (the following was written by myself several years ago) In his 1985 book “Hitler and the Armenian Genocide” Dr K.B. Bardakjian thoroughly establishes the credibility of Hitler’s statement “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (note: we often see this quote stated in slightly different manner due to latitudes in the translation from the German – however, the gist of the quote is accurate in all versions) Additionally (and in doing so) Dr Bardakjain illustrates Hitler’s knowledge of the Armenian Genocide, through: 1) his trusted advisor Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (stationed in Turkey during WWI), 2) as a result of the Tehlirian trial for the murder of Talat (which was held with much fanfare in Berlin in 1921 while Hitler was also there), and 3) through general knowledge of the plight of the Armenians in WWI which was well known by the Germans as a result of the hundreds of correspondences and publicity from Turkey to this regard during the First World War. The following is an excerpt from the “Contents of Speech to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939” which I have constructed based on one of the translations of the text of the original document delivered to Louis Paul Lochner days after the Speech. Lochner, an American Journalist in Germany with well known ties to the German resistance (to the Nazis) was known to have passed on many accurate German military and policy documents to the Americans and British in the early part of the war. He was present, and was interviewed (under oath) concerning the validity of the document, at the Nuremberg trials after the war and he testified that his source, Hermann Maassz had passed onto him a number of documents during these period which were all accurate and useful. The originator of the original text is Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, Hitler’s military intelligence, who was witnessed (by another German officer at the speech – who later testified to this) too be taking notes. These two, who were horrified by its contents, conspired to preserve the notes and pass a copy along to other members of the German resistance. While the original notes have been lost – various translations and subsequent versions are known to be in existence. (and their source with Adm Canaris has been independently verified by Winfried Baumgart, a well known researcher in Nazi documents) One of these translations (from which I quote) now resides in the American Archives. Note the two other versions which were entered into evidence at the Nuremberg trials are now thought (by objective historians) to be less accurate than the version smuggled out by Maassz & published Lochner. The speech (or speeches – might have been two – were not scripted – so only notes which were taken during its/there recitation document the contents. Admiral Canaris was known to be an accurate transcriber of early Hitler speeches at the time. The Nuremberg prosecutors considered also including this version as evidence but thought that the other two were more verifiable (at the time) as their source was more direct and not through a journalist. They wished no doubts as to the veracity of evidence produced. Additionally, this version (with the Armenian reference) had no additional details needed by the prosecutors in the trial. (they were not interested in the Armenian situation). It should be further noted that neither Lochner nor any of the others involved had any sort of connection to any Armenian issues – thus there was no agenda – only an accurate reporting of what was said by Hitler. The following are relevant excerpts from the speech: “Our strength consists of our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state.” “I have issued a command….that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head (SS) formations in readiness…with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” “Poland will be depopulated and then settled by the Germans.” “The little states cannot scare me. Since Kemal’s death Turkey is being governed by cretins and semi-idiots.” “Be tough! Be without compassion! Act more quickly and more brutally than the others! The citizens of western Europe must shudder in horror.” “The new method of conducting war corresponds to the new draft of the frontiers….” And there you have it – what I consider to be the relevant passages.

Ali - as usual your post consists of a great deal of truth. While I do understand the (German) philisophical roots of (racialy based) population deportation from contested regions, the role of the German military ome of the initial nervousness concerning Armenians (and their possibly suggesting deportation as a course of action), and the early German decision to turn the other way even when it became clear that deportations were only a screen for genocide -- I think it is till a streach to place the blame on the Germans to such a degree. Consider - did the "Red" Sultan consult with Germany prior to his massacre of Armenians? Dis Talat confer with the Germans before sending out his secret orders (perhaps we will never know) and did the local officials who with the assistance of the "special organization" (of B. Shakir) rely on Germans in any way to carry ourt their horrific deeds? The answer by and large (IMO) is "no". In fact German military reported that the Armenians were peaceful unless provoked and reported outrage over their treatment on a number of occasions. Prominant German civilians -most notably Lepsius and Wentger - the photographer - (both probably spelled incorrectly - sorry) both documented and reported out from under strict censorhip conditions (under penalty of death). Even the German officials (including Von Limon) eventually condemned the atrocities - albiet too late... Thus I feel that we can certainly aknowledge the influence of the Germans on several levels and their lateness - as Ottomans #1 ally (and an allegedly Christian nation) - to do anything...but I do not think that the CUP and their supporters should be given an "out" per se by blaming others - even the (always nasty/despicable) Germans... And as for the Hitler quote you are quite right. Not only is the truth of the quote fairly well proven - but the circumstances for Hitler to have known about the Armenian Genocide occur from several reasons - one by him being in Berlin in 1921 during the sensational trial of Telerian for the murdur of Talat. Another is the presence - in Turkey - during the previous war (WWI) of several of his key advisors... If I can find my expose on this issue I wil post it. In the meantime I am off and will be away for a few days - though look foreward to your response.

I won't waste my time reading any article that you will likely post - believe me I've known about the alleged existance of such groups as the Illuminati, knights templar and other (even much more fantastic) conspiracy theory approaches to history - long before you were born, no doubt... And was that all Jews or just some Jews? Does the name Henry Morganthau mean anything to you? Israel Charny? Elie Wiesel? I rest my case.

I find all of this Armenian reaction to vegetarianism to be very interesting. On one hand I see it too - but on the other it seems to me that Armenians also have a vegetarian tradition. I certainly am aware of (American) Armenian vegetarian cookbooks that date from the 1970s (I believe). Also - today I will attend a local Armenian Lent festival where only non-meat items will be served (and it will be fantastic - I am so looking forward to the feast!) (...funny I origniannly typed "fanatic" versus fantastic....something subliminal going on there perhaps....? Nah - I'm just a lousy typists {and a poor speller} that all [as if you haven't noticed by now....]) [ March 21, 2002, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: quote:Originally posted by Boghos: quote:Originally posted by Boghos:...have you tried "Y" ? the second label from Yquem. In Port I love the 77´ vintage, especially Taylor´s, they age a bit faster here since I don´t cellar them. . I have stopped buying with the 1994, it was getting ridiculous, Port for the next several generations...**** Never tried "Y" ...your saying I should I guess. I'm not sure I ever want to try Y'Quem (then I might have to buy some for myself...). I have a '77 Taylor that I have been considering drinking sometime soon...need to find an appreciative audience (can't drink it all myself)...I know what your saying concerning Port - still there are a few out there that I am still looking for...(and the '97s should be tres good BTW.) quote:Originally posted by Boghos: ****You really must, Eiswein is something very special and not that absurdly expensive.**** So I have been told. I actually own a bottle - guess I should drink it someday... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I am a big fan of South Africa, especially the wines from Thelema and Kanonkop. ....Buy everything S. African that you see, then you´ll decide on what you like, there is no better value in my mind.**** I guess I should check them out... quote:Originally posted by Boghos: ****It had been quite a while I had heard of 904, a fine wine, Rioja has excellent wine for meat. Naturally you should also try Vega Sicilia, especially if you are building a Mouton vetical ) .**** They must own this property no? Would you beleive I have never had an Opus 1? I actually know someone who knows someone that works there and he keeps promissing to turn me on to some...and I keep waitning...oh well - one day... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:****Once again dad´s come to rescue me providing me with excellent Gaja wines. I used to be a buyer for my father in the mid-80s, but gave up for a variety of reasons. Now, he does Italy, I do the rest. Gaja - super - never had one - though I own a Conteissa '97 that will be scrumptious one day I'm sure...Gaja is very & here - very difficult to find for less then $200 a bottle - most is $300+ now...not my normal price range...LOL

quote:Originally posted by KGrigory:I have a question of whether vegetarians eat broth from soups that were made out of meats. And also if vegetarians eat artificial meat flavors like the ones in the noodle packets. I think the answer (for most) would be no. Many/most/all? of my (many) vegetarian friends won't even eat many (or any) cheeses - though some types are OK (for some vegatarians) - has something to do with processing (rennet versus rennetless or some such as I recall). quote:Originally posted by KGrigory:One final note, if being vegetarian was the best option then wouldn't have almost all the animals in nature evolved to be herbivores(vegetarians)? It just goes to show you - balance in everything. For some being a herbavor is best, for other Omnivore - or what have you. And also I think that evolution is very often misunderstood - it is not so deterministic IMO - sometimes a lesser "solution" will make it for whatever reason (as long as it is not a total failure)...there is more of a luck element I think then is commonly thought. [ March 19, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Garo:bellthecat I give you a warning for insulting other members and advice you to watch your language. If your recent posts that contain nothing but BS are intended to provoke another conflict in the forum then you are on the wrong way. Garo - i don't think he was meaning to insult individuals as much as express his disdain for hunting and that he thinks vegetarians who preach to others are being fanatical. By the same token then you should give hasmeik and hagarag warnings as they insinuate that those of us who eat meat are just stupid & such. Comon now - lighten up a bit...and sure perhaps we can ask bellthecat for a clarification (or even an apology...for tone)...but a warning? Too much IMO.

Harut - I think some of the objections you are hearing concerning milk have to do with Cows milk - that does not process well in all folks (some would say in humans in general). Others may avoid milk products for other reasons I guess - though some do not - believeing somewhat as you have suggested. There is an alternative to milk called soy milk - made from soybeans...doesn't apeal to me really - but its much better then it used to be. I've actually had soysage (soy based sausage) that could have totally fooled me. I knew in advance what it was though (and still liked it quite a bit)...it wasn't so dry like most soy burgers are...

Bellthecat - Its funny to me that you refer to both vegetarians and hunters as fanatic at the same time - ussually one sees one group or the other as such. I don't see either as fanatics per se - though I can see one thinking that their behaviors are perhaps extreme. I won't argue the pro-cons of vegetarianism - there certainly are many reasons why one becomes a vegetarian (and I have known some (almost Spock/Vulcan like) that would likely make anyone here seem very mainstream - have you ever heard of a macrobiotic diet?) - anyway - personaly - though I have great sympathy for the arguments against mass produced agri-food in general - I'm not sure I see the (afordable) alternatives (some of my vegan friends [perhaps rightly] see this issue quite differently) - certainly though many practices can be improved and/or eliminated. I also have sympathy for the poor defensless animals (ie don't like that they are killed & such - nor do I like some of the life & death cycle conditions) etc - though not enough to give up meat (though I did once, briefly, at a young age, for this reason). And this, to some extent is why I have never hunted (for sport) - revulsion at taking life - besides the fact that it doesn't much interest me (as sport...though I can see why one would enjoy it...i don't play golf either - but feel the same way about it...LOL). I used to be of the mind to condemn hunters..but no longer (just some [really bonehead] hunters...the stories you hear....). Obviously endagered species should not be hunted and should be protected with extremely harsh penalties. Here in the Eastern US - with all predator species gone - deer (in particualr) and many vermin types of creatures have proliferated unabated. Often they are overpopulated to the point of starvation - and dangerous behaviors. Hunting is - and in my opinion should be considered - a viable alternative to control these populations. And while I still am not a fan of hunting per se - I can see its apeal to some and am less bothered by it then I usd to be. I certainly have partaken of my fair share of venison over the years... SO I do think you are being rather harsh in your opinions and lableing these folks as fanatical. In general I don't like the idea of artificially limiting choices by blocking off one set of things and saying - I don't go there...but by and large I do not eat seafood....though its because I don't enjoy the taste (& to a lesser extent perhaps past allergies). However, I respect folks to make decisions for themselves. I agree concerning evangeliscizing type of behaviors...though I understand some of these folks believe in their choices with a passion - and also see other problems with the various mass market meat producing (and perhaps non-organic agribussiness in general) industries that are very real. Sure I don't like to be preached to - who does...but heh...anyway...to each their own.