THOTH

MJ - all very good points (as usual) Boghos - I fully understand your points (I think) - however I believe the record of Armenians (in the Diaspora and in general) speaks for itself. Every people have unique attributes based on their environment and culture and genetics (and each plays upon and helps to determine the others). Armenians (as a group) tend to value education, achievement and (yes) culture. Armenians and their predescessors have been "cultured" for a long time - and this has had an impact on our values and the way we think. I don't think that acknowledging these things is racism - though I understand that many Armenians do take this too far and it can become a racist viewpoint (though I think general nationalism feeds this most directly). I am not racists - nor do i think that Armenians are necessarily "better" than others. I am proud to be an Armenian - for "our" achivements and "our" values - etc. I am also proud of my nation and people - USA/American hodgepodge for similar reasons. Does this mean I discount the achievements, capabilities and situations of others? - no I don't - all peoples/nations have unique aspects and excell or are noteworthy in some way. Likewise - every group has its flaws (etc). I think Armenians enjoy plenty of both (and even though I am part Armenian I am also somewhat of an outsider to this Armenian "thing" so I can see both from a (somewhat) objective perspective I think. Do you see my points?

Boghos, Some very good points. Good job!

Naria/TR - You go girls! Some of us men have actualy progressed beyond the 19th century. (we are PN - post neandertal). One of the reasons the neandertal "failed" was they were unable to change/adapt. (some of us still have a little neandertal in our genetics I think). Well - we are changing - as a people & our culture(s) - whether "they" like it or not. Could we stop such even if we wished? (only by Genocide [gendercide?] perhaps)... Those who are "Rabiz' (whatever), in our time, are I think the same types who would have no moral problems with owning slaves and who would tend to be more likely racist in general (IMO). I find the idea that it is OK (perhaps even encouraged) for men to be promiscuous and enjoy sexual freedoms and for women to somehow have to play by different (incredibly more constrictive) rules (or be called whore...or be stoned to death, be a victim of "honor" killing etc) very primitive and evidence of a mentality stuck in the past. Yes, as with all things, there are reasons why at one time this arrangement developed (etc) - but it has lived on way past its usefulness. No one can convince me that women should have any less rights or freedoms as people then men - in any manner - nor should expressing such be reason for shunning or worse. Well perhaps I am wrong - no? I mean the Bible/Koran tells us so....maybe women don't deserve the right to vote/equal say in court/ability to own property/freedom to orgasm as they choose etc. God is a man right? and might makes right... etc. "We" have the power - why should we give it up?

Boghos, All peoples are shaped by their environment - physically/genetically, culturally and otherwise. Armenians have been among the earliest peoples with exposure to complex culture (and this has an imprint I beleive). Armenians have also survived under adversity for Millenia (making us tough and contributing to "natural selection"). Armenians have been sedentary and reletively peaceful (non-expansionist) compared to others (and have valued education, craftmenship, trade and the arts). etc These are just observations. Armenian achievement - based on numbers/percentages etc speaks for itself - IMO. Yes - I think Armenians are special people - for a number of reasons. Of course, as a group, and as individuals perhaps, we all have our flaws/shortcommings. Ara is quite adept at pointing these out so I will leave him to take the lead here. And I understand your concerns regarding racism and complacency relating to belief in our specialness... Its funny, on Diaspora, the more vociferous ("time to invade Turkey" types) have labled me a pessimist - one who is opposed to the idea of Armenians being particularly special and/or achieving or being great as a people/nation - etc. So perhaps it depends on context. What can I say - I calls em as I sees em...and of course these are just my observations - I could be entirely incorrect and missing some/much. OK. So does Saroyan think we are losers?

Ara, sorry but I feel the need to reply to this post of yours here as well as in Diaspora - so here it is again: I don't think that he was implying in any way that we are/were losers as a people (in the way that you imply and often voice) even if we have indeed "lost" our lands and even if our history is in fact perhaps not even a footnote in the overall rememberence of such on the grand world scale. He - IMO - was only stating fact - in the grand scheme of things Armenians are perhaps an insignificant people. Yes we have had culture and wonderful/noteworthy artistic achievements and a land (more or less) of our own. But in being a small people (in numbers and power [is this the only measuring stick for greatness?])we were overun and conquered and our (place in) history was overtaken/overshadowed by those who established themselves (politically and overarching culturally) over where we once were - larger powers - beginning with the Greeks and Persians. We persevered - but history concentrates on the large empires etc and the milestone achievements (even if "stolen") and "big" (world changing/affecting) events etc from them. Thus our art and culture - though noteworthy - doesn't make the cut - and is largely forgotten. Then of course - with the genocide - we are no longer even present where we once were - and our very structures and monuments are lost. But Saroyan understands that these things (and the recognition of others) are not what makes us special as a people. It is our inate talent, our love of and care for our families, our kind/peaceful nature, our goodness and fortitude and other qualities that Armenians possess that really matter. His statement is an afirmation of our (internal) greatness - through all of this we are still Armenian and are still special. And we will achieve no matter where we are and regardless of the challenges. I think you have misinterpreted his message (fashioned it into your own message perhaps). Though we have lost wars, property, been abused and trodden on by others - in no way are we losers - these are temporal things which are not truly what is important. Though I can agree with your observations concerning the failures of Armenians politically - I cannot accept that you call us losers. And Saroyan most certainly did not. As an added note I think that those obsessed with taking back lands etc should read and reflect on Saroyan's message a bit.

This is an interesting (theoretical) question. To answer it (I believe) you must first ask yourself - am I the same me now as before as I will be and are my wants/needs also always the same. Then of course does there exisit someone who will also change to reflect such - to keep pace as it were...or are you asking only considering the immediate "now"...or is your question of a simpler nature? Are you contemplating a state of sensual/physical/mental perfection and what person might facilitate your reaching such and who you might also respond to in like manner (and if your sufficiently narcistic perhaps you only need [or could tolerate only] yourself for such...)...or maybe you are considering this on a level simpler still (but perhaps I won't go there...here)...and you did focus on "lover" not partner...as these two could certainly be different...and as I first conjectured - much of this is in the theoretical..as a Russian you should be able to appreciate such...though perhaps you are too young to have "known" Communism....

Oh an Kaz...one more thing...I noticed that you are dropping in on us from heaven...whats it like there if you don't mind me asking? I always thought the place would be frightfully boring and a bit unsatisfying (what is life without a few challenges?)...and I always thought that I would likely find those in Hell more apealing/interesting on a personal level....could it be that I have been wrong? And is it OK to listen to Ornette Coleman up there?

Kazza, yes - I must get in touch with dear Ararat and see what he is up to. The last I had heard he was battling some revisionist Azeris in a Turkish language forum (I believe). You are correct - he is a nice person and he cares very very much for Armenians and their isues. I have too given some thought to a forum of my own (Genocide recognition and Turkish-Armenian reconcilliation and the like -perhaps two opposing concepts - but the latter will never occur without the former IMO [though we Armenians may need to be less draconian IMO]...though many Turks take the opposite view [reconcilliation will never occur until the Armenians give it up regarding this genocide thing]...LOL). My current thinking is that there are too many forums with too much talk and not enough focus. (as much as I enjoy such) I also don't have the time or energy (I have young children and a job, house and yard - etc...and other interests as well)...so my participation, for what it is worth, on the forums I do frequent, will have to do. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the (supposed) flood & ark etc...LOL - perhaps this conversation is more appropriate on the "Hi how are you" section of "other" or some such...or perhaps we will cross paths in some specific subject issue....and yes, I'm finding I rather like this forum...Diaspora has succumbed to the Armo-Nazis (real or otherwise) I am afraid - as well as to other more reactionary (for my taste) elements...(I am glad thay have done the "right thing" here...thanks MJ etc)

I would not trust the population figures contained in that book. McCarthy uses Ottoman figures which contained severe undercounts of Armenians. Though McCarthy acknowledges the undercounts he also (essentially) dismisses them. Perhaps the figures are OK for a ballpark estimate/starting point - but you must remember that McCarthy is pushing an (Anit-Armenian) political agenda and has been shown on a number of occasions that he is not beyond falsification and idstortion in support of his singly (and admittedly) pro-Turkish cause. Both Ismadun and myself have factual information/posts which back up these claims if you are interested (I/we can re-post)

yes, that is correct. Hello again. We never got started much their unfortunatly - eh? Ararat spoke highly of you though as I recall - he has been scarce of late (to my eyes) - which is too bad. This Hye forum is very nice I think. I hope I will continue to see you here - seems you said goodbye or such recently - or am I confusing you with someone else...?

Circassian - "blame game" - is this what the neo-nazi said to the Jew? Stop complaining about the ovens - by the way you deserved it? Quit your crying...we are above reproach....etc

No, Circassian, I disagree – its really not that complex at all. Oh there are certainly complex issues which might be endlessly debated, examined and discussed – but by and large the basic issue is rather simple…as stated by Mr Melik Kaylan of the Wall Street Journal: There’s no question that the vicious so-called "Young Turk" regime of the time visited horrors on the indigenous Armenian community. Turkish authorities today still suppress all discussion of the topic. He has stated the fundamental point in a nutshell: Horrors were enacted/visited upon the indigenous Armenian population by a vicious regime and the Turkish authorities/government today still actively suppresses discussion, spreads disinformation and absolutely refuses to admit the truth of what happened. Were Muslims victimized (primarily by Russians/Cossacks) in the Caucuses and Crimea – yes certainly – though the Circassians did their share against the Russians and Cossacks as well. Does this excuse the very harsh treatment by the Russians and exile – etc? No, IMO it does not. Was it a genocide – certainly it has many aspects of such. I condemn the Russians and feel sorrow for all the people who suffered and the families that lost homes and loved ones – but these incidents – though tangentially related to the Armenian Genocide – don’t in any way justify or minimize the Armenian tragedy. And while certainly some Armenians acted poorly against their Muslim neighbors during this period – the Turkish counter claims of significant Armenian sedition and of any sort of Armenian genocide against Turks or even of civil war – are patently false. If true – why did not the famed German propaganda machine use such to justify the actions of the Turks (that they at some level, at least initially supported)? Why then do we see only German disgust at the Turkish treatment of the Armenians and have no reports (outside of 4 specific times & places) of any Armenian counter action? If you, as a Circassian, wish to make an issue of your peoples genocide (and I won’t cheapen your claim and the memories of your kin by labeling it as “so-called” then I will certainly support you – but in the meantime my plate is rather full on this issue due to the existence of a government and a people, as a group, who are actively denying that such occurred to my family and extended kin. Mr Kaylan can complain all he likes about how uncomfortable or whatever various folks discussing their misfortunes – but I say tough shit for him. Because of all those peoples – only his – the Turks – take such steps to actively deny, and only the Turks and the Turkish Government is allowed to make such false and racist counterclaims against the victims – that would land others in jail or to be ostracized as a nation. And though I am sensitive to his points concerning Western attitudes concerning Turks/Turkey – and understand his points – at the same time I see Turkey and Turks perpetuating their arrogant, unrepentant and uncaring demeanor – so whose fault is it really that the West maintains such attitudes? And here he is now attempting to blame the Genocide of Armenians on the Kurds. Well, buddy, for your information, various Kurdish groups (including the PKK) have admitted to their (active though secondary) role and have expressed remorse and asked for forgiveness. When will the heirs of the masterminds and the perpetrators of such show equal forthrightness and humility? PS - the Karabagh issue as stated from Mr Kaylan's very Turkish, one sided, anti-Armenian perspective is both wildly overstated and factually incorrect. For his information the aggression was begun and perpetuated by the Azeris. During the course of the conflict, once Armenians were able to level the playing field, then there were incidents of brutality on both sides. It is a vast overstatement however that there was any systematic abuse by the Armenians such as he is claiming. A clear and unbiased review of the facts will show this to be true - and will clearly place the blame on all of this violence and the initiation of "ethnic cleansing" squarely on the shoulders of the Azeris.

Circassian. I am glad that you agree with my posting/views (in this case). Obviously I hold some views perhaps untypical of Armenians at large - regarding certain aspects of Turkey (and perhaps Turks). Are you able to be equally bold/innovative/independent in regards to the status quo on your “side”? After all – you are claiming to wish a dialogue and are for peace and reconciliation…can this occur without some give and take…without some movement on both sides…admissions….understanding…forgiveness…etc? I certainly think that Armenians need to listen to what various Turks are claiming in regards to the Genocide (though certainly we cannot accept the portions which are obviously poorly veiled propaganda), and we must also adjust our rhetoric to not further corner Turks – but allow them to move toward us. That being the case I still must insist that you are incorrect regarding your claims of lack of evidence of a Genocide (perpetuated by Turks) against Armenians. This evidence is overwhelming (to disagree is IMO an admission of your lack of knowledge or of your a priori conclusions regardless of facts). The evidence exists from all sides - for instance much damning evidence has been produced by Turkey's (Ottoman's) own allies in WWI - the Germans (and to a lesser extent from the Austrians) and of course from the Turks themselves. Immediately after the war there were trials conducted by the Ottoman government where the majority of the key national and a number of regional Young Turk party members were convicted and (most were) sentenced to death for precisely the crime of genocide against the Armenians (and theft of their property which you also seem to discount). Of course there is mountains of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that in Anatolia the Armenian nation and Armenians are no more - and every Armenian family, including my own, has its story of (organized) death marches, massacres and the like. And the pattern of such accross Anatolia in 1915 is clear. It was centrally directed and ruthlessly carried out. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the intent was the annihilation/complete destruction of the Armenians (by means of killing through massacre and starvation) and that this plan was pre-meditated and pursued with vigor. All evidence confirms this as clear as the truth of my saying that it is so. Additionally I should mention that the term "Genocide" was first coined/used to describe the massacre of Armenians and destruction of their "nation" at the hand of the Ottoman Turks during this period. Thus the definition of the word was de facto a description of what was observed to be occurring to the Armenians. Does it not strike you then as odd that one might claim that the organized massacres and complete uprooting of Armenians in Anatolia in WWI are not Genocide? - when the word was invented to describe just these events and their impact on a people? You seem like an educated fellow - perhaps the logic of this is within your grasp. Please think on it a bit...if you really must. Concerning your point that Turkey will move foreword regardless of the internal dynamics - I could not disagree more. If internal dynamics do not change Turkey will either stagnate and/or disintegrate (and likely turn fundamentalist). So - with that being the case - it is up to (educated and increasingly aware) Turks such as yourself to initiate change of the type that will allow your nation to take the next step. Obviously EU membership is key to this - if you think not....then I hope you are in good with your Mullah...etc. Even if not EU membership - it is the type of reform called for by EU that must occur to force your nation to modernize - (and that there is so much resistance to this is telling...IMO). Additionally - I think a part of this maturation and advancement as a nation/people is historical honesty...(you figure it out). So two questions (plus some extra credit] for you - 1) Can/will Turkey progress while maintaining Kemalism (unmodified) as its central philosophical/political/social core? (and for extra credit - can Turkey progress with the military's role unchanged (and the continued significant/accepted presence of [your buddies] the MHP/gray wolves?) 2) Can/will Turkey progress (in the world - as a modern nation and to ever emerge out of its relative backwater status) without coming to terms with the shameful deeds of its past (primarily regarding the wholesale destruction of a nation within its midst - the Armenians (and similar treatment of the other Christian minorities) - whether or not you accept the semantic of "Genocide")? Food for thought on #2 - everyone knows you guys (CUP lead Ottoman Empire) did it, the Armenians will never forget and will never let the world forget (and its all in the archives of the West anyway silly...every necessary fact of documentation...more than enough really), and your nation is not fooling anyone (but only your own people)...think about it....) I look foreword to your answers....and commentary. [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Here is a link regarding Noahs ark/biblical (etc) flood that may interest you: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0105...ure3/index.html It is from the May 2001 national Geographic. The print version contains some interesting pictures of how the black Sea - once a large freshwater lake whose surface was below sea level was flooded by a breach through what is now the Bosphorus...etc Also - if you are interested in this subject - I also suggest looking into the Summerian version of this event (from the story of Gilgamesh). The Biblical version is clearly a direct derivative of it. Another set of refereces for you: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068...2576968-2705727 [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: Dear Circassian it is good that a country treats it's citizens as equal but destroyng the indigenous cultures and make an imaginary Turkish identity for all on a non-voluntary basis is wrong. First - I am not so sure everyone is treated as equal. While certain minorities have risen to prominent positions I am led to understand that there is still a great deal of prejudice against those who are obviously not fully "Turk" by look/affiliation (or in some cases those who are not of clear Muslim background - as evidenced by name). Like many places such discrimination is often subtle or unsaid - but occurs just the same. Likewise, in this day and age of cultural sensitivity, I think we can agree that to force cultural assimilation - through law (forbidding use of language, private schools, affiliation, limits on political/cultural expression etc) or through just imposing an identity - is in truth both wrong and unadvisable. However, in hindsight, it is clear that what was accomplished by Ataturk - at least in the short term (and even lasting until today) was at least in part based on such practice. While suppressing minority or ethnic aspiration is distasteful - I agree - it was reactive to the (by then failed) Ottoman approach - and was also perhaps more palatable then the Pan-Turanism of the Young Turks/CUP. Ataturk built a nation and consolidated it from the ashes of defeat (and shame). Though we can criticize now - and (as Armenians have some legitimate sour grapes regarding Ataturk's finishing the job of the CUP and squashing what was left and avoiding responsibility for such - etc) - bottom line is that what Ataturk accomplished was very impressive for the time and was quite an accomplishment. Unfortunately the negative aspects of the legacy - regarding minorities, supremacy of national myth (with its ultra paranoid defensiveness) and suppression of pluralism (to some extent) live on today - and for Turkey to move ahead - it is time for some fundamental change. IMO. By the way Tornado - what is your ethnic and national affiliation - just curious (I thought I had pegged you - but now I'm not so sure). I am and American of 1/2 Armenian descent BTW. [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]