THOTH

MJ Excellent response (as usual) There can be no question that the US acts in (what it percieves to be) its national interest on the world stage. Sometimes this approach is shortsighted and based on misperceptions (or narrow perceptions). Often, (as in the case of the previous administration), there is no "policy" per se at all - but knee jerk response - often driven by internal (or otherwise non related) factors. Again - this is not untypical of nations in general - just whatever the US does - in this time - is center stage - and is critically perceived by others (often rightly so). The current administration should have a better policy perspective - but the underpinnings (realpolitic and for whose [corporate] interests) may be cause for serious concern. Armenia is in a poor position in this regard IMO - but I will bet that the Arabs/Palestinians are likely to benefit vis a vis Israel in certain respects (particularly if the oil "squeeze" is on...). Hard to say - as Israel has its clout as well (Armenia hasn't got dogsh*t unfourtunatly...unless its (percieved as condusive) to benefit Azerbaijan and oil/gas access etc) And to keep on topic I should address US - Muslim bias - etc. Islam is certainly percieved (perhaps rightly so) as the great bogeyman of today (where communism has basically fallen off of the map). I think we are mostly entering an economic/influence/access competitive period (more real then prior anti-communist/East versus West, somewhat false/contrived competition...[was communism really ever a viable alternative? Nations were either subjegated by such, or revolutionary groups professed such as a calling card for aid/assistance as the acceptable "opposition" etc]. We are now entering a period somewhat like what exisited prior to WWI (and the asscendency of the Bolshi's in Russia)...back to reality (and a more purely greed based [and shifting alliance] competition) I think....do you agree? (what are your thoughts, if any, if you care...etc?) Armenia is in a poor position to capitalize on such I think...more likely will be victim...(and can you see Russia as the Ottoman Empire of today? [always were even then...just delayed...] IMO...and if so what new dangers might be in store...for minorities within the "Empire" and for the rest of us...[think think]) BTW - I am curious regarding your background & what you do (you refer to teaching)...are you a prof somewhere? (and of what...etc.)...and you are an American/US citizen [or such] no?

MJ While Taoism/Daoism exists in Japan - it is very much a minority religion there - as opposed to Buddism and Shintoism (the driving force behind the Japanese God-Emporer concept and Japanese militarism). Taoism is in no way a warlike philosophy - nor could I ever imagine adherrents to Taoism initiating an aggressive war or ever supressing anyone who beleived differently then they. Here is some more info on Taoism if you are interested (though the best is to read Lao-Tzu himself... http://www.crystalinks.com/taoism.html

MJ The Japanese are/were Shinto - a nationalistic offshoot (?) of Buddism. Your point of course is pretty much correct - folks from different religions have commited atrocities etc - but have they all commited these atrocities in the name of the religion? I think this group is slightly smaller. Certain religions - (primarily western, though many tribal based as well) seem to have concepts of heathens etc worthy of destruction and abuse - and wars and subjugation has been prompted (or at least justified) on this basis. The patriarchal religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the worst in this regard (IMO)

I for one believe that there is inherent danger in any religion which espouses an "us versus them" philosophy - is exclusivistic - and calls for punishment (or at least can justify such) of unbelievers. Both Christianity and Islam clearly fall into these categories IMO. (I am not aware of any atrocities commited by Taoists/Daoists BTW ..perhaps some fanatic(?) neo-Taosist [not true(?) but some schismatic types]...but even then...they (the neo) are mostly hedonists - no where in Daoist philosophy is there room/call for violence or aggressiveness of any kind - as far as I know. Buddism is likewise non-aggressive - though perhaps has wider interpretational leway (I really don't know - though from what I do know I think it to be a much "friendlier" religion than either Christainity or Islam) I further have problems with this concept of man(kind) being unworthy of some alien god who imposes strictures which violate (IMO) some of the very nature of out humanity. (and the inherrent contradictions [omnicient/omnipotent...free will, yet...etc)in the beleif of such are just to numourous to mention). Islam is particularly abhorrent in this regard (IMO) - but Christianity comes close second. Obviously both religions have been used to justify immense crimes. Is it the religion - or just human nature? I think some of both. BTW - while the US certainly has its faults and Americans (like myself) in this time see themselves on top and as deserving and such - by and large the US has done pretty well - better than any other nation in our position (in history or as can be imagined with others in our current position). While the corporate greed and such surely has been influential to the negative - the US is also a land of ideals and regonition of certain human values which have positive influence as well. IMO - no religion, belief, government etc to date has yet to (or likely will ever) live up to the ideals or implied responsibilities we as humans have to our earth (and its creatures) or to each other. Are we failing before God - perhaps - if this God is a metephor for life and creation (I reject the personification of such).

Great pioneering site! Product of a Greek (now in England) who goes by Agnamenon who may originally have been from Cyprus. In the old days (3+ years ago?) he used to have the site hooked up in all the search engines so that when someone was looking for travel or cultural tips & the like regarding Turkey his site would come up first. Folks would open it up and go to his various Turkish cultural/political sections etc and viola - some truth that they were perhaps unaware - great stuff! Worth a visit.

Mike - Yes, I am a huge Gong fan (by "earlier I assume you refer to Camaebert Electrique [my fave], Magik Brother, Mistic Sister, and perhaps Continental Circus [very early..I have an original Frech pressing](?)?) Did you know that Gong was first introduced to the world at a Jazz & rock festival in 1969 by Frank Zappa? Have you checked out any of David Allen's solo works (or later - with Planet Gong - Live Floating Anarchy)? And I like the other "Canterbury Groups" - if I am interpreting correctly (I may be confusing who is "in" such category)- Soft Machine, Camel, National Health, Egg, Hatfield and the North, Steve Hillage, etc. (Most folks - particularly from California - have never heard of any of these groups/individuals...) Do you also know Magma? Peter Hammil/Van der Graf Generator? Hawkwind? If you don't, and you like Gong - you may like some of these groups. I literally have tens to hundreds of hours of hours of audio and video of these groups (and many more like them) beyond even the great majority of their official works. I first saw/heard (and recorded) Gong live in 1979 - the very first shows of the very first tours ever done in the States. Likewise folks I knew/know had much to do with getting Hawkind over here for the first time (the latest Dave Brock incarnation is fairly regular here know and even Nik Turner's version tours on occasion - both well worth seeing/experiencing - still very trippy after all these years.... BTW - no I did not go to school in California...and am a bit older than dear John myself. How is it that you are just getting into Gong in this day and age? Had you not heard them before? If you like their music and are not familiar with the many other bands of the 60/70s etc of (perhaps) similar creativity i would be more than happy to recommend.... What are you other musical interests? Its rare for me to encounter anyone who has heard of half of the groups whom I like. You mention King Crimson - yes - very much yes - and the many Fripp incarnations (again much "special" audio and video...(I am a graet "collector" if you haven't already figured that out. I assume you are also familiar with Adrian Belew? Another tidbit (as you mention the Dead Kennedy's) I actually rode in a limo with Frank Zappa and Jello Biafra (some combination - eh?). Frank was assisitng Jello in raising funds for his obscentity/free speech legal defense and they were going to some bookstore in Vanice for an appearence. I was basically just along for the ride. A very interesting converstation ensued - as you might imagine. Unfourtunatly I failed to "document it" - though I have pictures of myself with both of them... Yea - I'm into DKs and other such (can't say I am much of a Doris Day fan however...LOL). Speaking of (perhaps) obscure So Cal bands - are you familiar with the Minutemen? I was quite into them for a time...(of course one of them died and such...) quote:Originally posted by Aghmug: Just recently bought the trilogy plus a couple of the earlier ones. So far, Magick Brother is my favorite. They are OUT THERE! I think all of the Canterbury Scene were spacey. Currently on a King Crimson kick, but my tastes run from Doris Day to the Dead Kennedys. Mike

naira - Sorry as well for the lateness of my response - I have been away without access to computer/internet - so a blip in time and now I am back. I shot the videos two or so years ago. I really can't say what my influences are - they are many I am certain - some are just people I know (who no one else would). (I am not sure if I should feel complimented or insulted with the Warhol comparison...LOL!) I mostly just have fun and try to do something new and interesting. When I am shooting a band there are times I try to be transparent (as possible) and let them present themselves - of course just with the choices of shots - tight, wide, who I might focus on etc I am making judgements. And sometimes I like to play and be wierd. I shot Mail Order bride (MOB) a number of ways at different shows. (they really liked my work - in its various forms) They wanted me to do some (non - strictly concert) "videos" and we exchanged ideas - but I was unable to commit the time - perhaps we will still collaborate at some point (I like their stuff and their image etc and would like to produce a video (or so) for them). MOB are still playing (mostly here in DC and vicinity, also in NY...they have been out West (California/Seattle) last year (?) as well. They have just released a new CD - though I haven't heard it (in final form) - I am familiar with most of the music - and I think the songs and energy are quite fine. I am pleased that you liked them as well. David Lynch is super (though like everyone sometimes misses the mark - though is always interesting) - we need more with his mind making movies here...always worthwhile. I have friends that are really into (and have worked with) John Waters...do you know his work? (It is very American and in specific very Baltimore [where I am more or less from]). Certainly a different sort of different - very kitcsh culture (if i have said that right). I have not seen "Lost Highway" - I guess I must...! I too am awaiting Ararat. I am sure it will touch us - but will it suceed in bringing mass awarness - I am not sure. I think that it does is important. Later. quote:Originally posted by naira: THOTH, baby: Sorry for being late with this reply, but it's better late than ever.... what do you think? I liked your videos. I feel some influences, but I don't dare to unveil them. However, I'm gonna tell you. I see some Andy Warhal's influence, by his early epoque of "Trash" stuff. I'm sure you heard of that peice. I couldn't watch it to the end. There is another great experimentalist Jonas Mekas, a lithuanian-born American form NY. He was shooting the same way as you did use some episodes. When did you shoot this videos, can you tell me more. Jimmy Hendriks: Talking about what did make me feel, if they were Jimmy Hendriks fans. The guitar, of course. The musical arrangement, in general! They sound like kids who deadly loved Jimmy's works. I didn't make any research on Mailor Brides, early influences. Does this band still exist? I didn't see Ara Ernjakian’s “Deadline in Seven Days”. But I'll try to check it out. While we still talk about cinema and Music. I'd say that I admire David Lynch. "Blue velvet" is one of his masterpieces. I prefer "Lost Highway". I think this one is a world "masterpiece". Very powerful film! Now I'm waiting for two releases: "Ararat" by Atom Egoyan and "Mullhound Drive" by David Lynch.... I'm very curious.... [ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

Hovik - you are a smart guy - don't resort to such. Everyone (every Armenian) at some point I think will have a problem with some particular Ara post or aspect of a post. Many, like you, just don't like what he says at all. However I think there are more constructive ways to disagree. If you think he is posting unfactually or in error I suggest providing examples to refute him. Otherwise I encourage civility - even if you think the worst of Ara (I just think you misunderstand his aims/targets & role etc). And if MJ may have been heavy handed in giving you the warning (as I first thought) - after your response to Ara - I feel that he is perhaps justified considering your response to him. Please try to keep it cool brother....

Well I beg to difer. I think Falafel can be wonderful (fresh & not too dry). It is made by Lebanese Armenians who also make a most excellent Shawerma (similar to Gyros/Donner Kebap), as well as Boreg/Behdeg, paklava and other delecacies. Another place for Armenian delecacies I should mention (in Hollywood/LA) is Panos pastry!!!!! - truly the best (that I know of) for all varieties of Paklava, Kudjeif (sp?) and similar sweet & nutty delectables...yum, yum. Did I also mention that I like Thai food? (Do you have a problem with Thai as well?) and Persian (their Kebabs differ from standard Armenian in flavoring - but are equally yummy - IMO). And Persian rice cannot be topped (except perhaps by Armenian rice Pilaf of course. A very well known Iranian restaurant is Sham Shiri (certain I have spelled it wrong) - in the same area (East Hollywood/Little Armenia)as the others.... Speaking of Armenians foods - I have been meaning to ask the forum members if any have heard of a Toubuili like concoction known as Eeech? (made with steamed tomato)...I am looking for a recepie/instructions. I know that you would not be interested Tornado - because it aparently is not purely Aryan enough (and perhaps as well has Lebanese/Arab (?) influence...). Ara (of Ara's fame) is an Iraqi Armenian - whom I am convinced makes the best shish kebab & chicken kebab on the planet....perhaps it too is Arabic influenced (just a bit...who knows?) - So I recommend that you stay away to not offend your sensibilities... quote:Originally posted by Tornado:Which Armenians make falafel? It is an Arab dish and honestly doesn't taste good. Sish kebab and chicken kebeb are great.

Profiles of Disappearing Languages Worldwide Tuesday, June 19, 2001 Snapshots of language losses worldwide: • North America: Eighty percent of the 260 native languages still spoken in the United States and Canada aren't being learned by children, one reason for language loss. Eyak, native to the coast of Alaska's Prince William Sound, has one remaining speaker. • South America: Hundreds of languages died as a result of the Spanish conquest. About 80 percent of the continent's remaining 640 languages are spoken by fewer than 10,000 people each; 27 face extinction. Many languages from the Amazon region have fewer than 500 speakers, including Arikapu, which has six. • Africa: In the birthplace of nearly one-third of the world's languages, 54 are believed dead, with another 116 nearing extinction. • Asia: More than half of Asia's native languages have fewer than 10,000 speakers each, although 3 billion people, or half the world's population, live on the continent. • Australia: About 90 percent of its 250 aboriginal languages face extinction. • Europe: Nearly 90 percent of Russians speak Russian, the language enforced during the Soviet era. Consequently, most of the country's 100 other native languages, nearly all of them Siberian tongues, are near extinction, including Udihe. Some facts about the world's 6,800 languages: Eight countries account for more than half of all languages. • Papua New Guinea, 832 languages. • Indonesia, 731. • Nigeria, 515. • India, 400. • Mexico, Cameroon and Australia, just under 300 each. • Brazil, 234. • The island of New Guinea, which the nation of Papua New Guinea shares with the Indonesian state of Irian Jaya, is home to just 0.1 percent of the world's population, yet its residents speak one-sixth of all languages, or some 1,100 tongues. • More than 100 languages can be heard on the tiny archipelago of Vanuatu, in the South Pacific Ocean near Australia. It is home to about 190,000 people. • India has 15 official languages, more than any other nation. The 10 most common first languages, and number of speakers: • Mandarin Chinese, 885 million. • Spanish, 332 million. • English, 322 million. • Arabic, 220 million. • Bengali, 189 million. • Hindi, 182 million. • Portuguese, 170 million. • Russian, 170 million. • Japanese, 125 million. • German, 98 million. • Percentage of world's languages of Asian origin: 32 • Percentage of world's languages of African origin: 30 • Percentage of world's languages of Pacific origin: 19 • Percentage of world's languages of American origin: 15 • Percentage of world's languages of European origin: 4 • Percentage of world's children raised as bilingual speakers: 66 percent. • Percentage of U.S. residents who are bilingual: 6.3 percent.

quote:Originally posted by odar: we were wondering if anyone could suggest any good Armenian restaurants there or anywhere in Southern California. And if you have any suggestions as to what to order, that's even better Thanks in advance for your help. Well, my info may be a bit dated - as I don't live in So Cal/LA anymore but I would recommend Ara's in Hollywood for the Shish Kebab and Chicken Kebab. There are many Armenian restaruants and even fast food - like Zankou Chicken and Falafal Arax (both accross from each other [on Normandy] in Hollywood). Alas - Kabakians of Pasadena (legendary in my book) is no more.... Sorry I don't know Glendale better - but I am sure that almost any will not diapoint - I suggest you look in the phone book. Good luck!

quote:Originally posted by naira: Yeah, Jimmy Hendriks fans..; I felt them to be Well, yes (but how do you know this...I didn't see such on the site...). Their base player (now former/part time/studio only, I think) is an ethnomusicologist (by degree) and has recently (last year) accepted a position as curator of the Hendrix audio library/archives (from the Hendrtix Estate) and is overseeing re-issues and new issues etc (& other stufff I guess)...he was also a big Zappa head...so we hit it off very well. The rest of them are into a variety of music (more new/cutting edge than older stuff). And as a matter of fact I had in the past turned them on to some Nina Hagen, Public Image and other stuff they were not familiar with...etc) quote:Originally posted by naira: I've seen some video-clps are they the ones you shot? - Petunia - Gift of the Survivor Yes, these are my clips. You could see them - I can't for some reason...and I just updated my "real" player...funny, ****o is working fine... So were they (the clips) OK? I don't think they are long/complete. I wish "Consternation" was on there - it rocks and my video was very/most cool as well... They are not Hendrix in style (they have a cello player even - and also do spoken word and a bit of theatrics...) good/interesting stuff.... quote:Originally posted by naira: I'm gonna check more on Zappas and Tubes. Since my best machine is on reparation, I should enjoy my old Mac which runs 38-56 Kb/per hour. LOL... So no way to download anything from Napster. Anyway Napster is degraded. They succeeded to kill it. Was a cool tool. Yea, you should. You may like Frank's "Broadway the Hard Way" or "Lather" or "Joes Garage" - hard to say. "Make a Jazz Noise Here" is very good musically and has a nice sampling from various albums - etc (and there is so much variety to his music). I made it a point (it seemed) to be kicked off of radio stations for playing Zappa - starting with my High School station. The advisor knew I was a Zappa head and he explicity prohibited Zappa from the station (due to dirty language..etc)..so of course I played Zappa (instrumental) and listed it on my playlist....that was my first and last gig on that station...LOL! It happend several times at different stations. One station had a variety playlist - different musical styles over the couse of an hour or some such...well I could play Jazz, Rock, Country, Disco, Punk, Orchestral...what have you - all playing Zappa - so of course I couldn't resist! My banishment was brief...as I was music director and resigned after loosing my show (they needed me...which is always nice). As for the Tubes - I recommend (for you) their debute album - "The Tubes" - as it has White Punks on dope.. (also appears on "What do you want from Live!"). "Young and Rich" is also good, as are "The Tubes Now" (my sentimental favorite...well they cover Capt. Beefheart/Don Van Vilet on it so it would be....)and "Remote Control" (the latter is all about crappy television - produced and also featuring (background vocals) Todd Rundgren!). The "new" Tubes are without many of the old band and they are not nearly the same/as good. quote:Originally posted by naira: So you love older women. I think I'll be to young for you (LOL...), since I'm only 28, well may be 29 soon. But I look very young THOTH! Promise...LOL! Well, yes - though I love all women of course! 28/29 is nice...you must be a hottie! (look young - can never be a bad thing...LOL) I just turned 40 myself (still hard to beleive I am not in my 20's...though I used to say..."hard to believe not a teenager" ...so I guess I am aging a bit...Well , your age isn't really a factor to me - I'm not planning to date you...and it wouldn't be an issue anyway (from my end) even if....I've certainly dated younger women before as well (in another life, long ago it seems...I am married with kids remember...LOL). I have also dated well older than me (lets see when I was 25 or thereabout I did go out with a gal in her late 30's for a bit) Our dear John - of RHCP fame used to date this (very hot) older gal (over) twice his age! They used to re-enact that scene (I'm sure you know the one...with the knife, her on top, etc) from "Blue Velvet" (speaking of David Lynch...)...and they got off (considerably) with it! (in front of us even...you were curious how I recognized his ass...) LOL!

Tornado - i never meant to say Russians - as in Russian people - I was refering to the Government/military. Certainly there is no way that Russians will not have influence over region - they are a large, powerful nation and the Caucuses is their doorstep. But they benefit from divide and conquor - and because there is lack of a good alternative. I would like to see Caucuses people - united without animosity - and strong enough to resist Russian (and Turkish and Iranian) influence. Can this ever occur with these states small and seperate? I would never advocate cleansing of any group of people for any reason (except perhaps Republicans.... [joke]...). Various Russians have made their hoes inthe Caucuses - some for generations - who are we to deny them their peace and livelyhood? (Regardless of our resentment regarding their (original) nation's historic and continuing imperialism. [ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Ali - I have been to Aespendos - it was truly a marvel. The accoustics were still wonderful! And it is amazingly perserved - the best of its kind I think. In general I was amazed when visiting the various sites (of antiquity) in Turkey (Ephesos, Miletius, Pirius?Pirene? (don't remember), a nice site (near) Aespendos (don't remember the name - but the were extensive) and others - that the level of supervision/policing etc seemed non-existant (all except for Troy perhaps). And everywhere I went children were attempting to sell me Roman coins and the like...and certain adults sometimes hinted at more. I was not inclined to take them up on these types of offers - regardless of authenticity and regardless of the (now) strict Turkish laws against the export of such.....

MJ is correct regarding why an independent Karabagh/Artsakh versus union with Armenia. At the time unification with Armenian was not politically acceptable (nor is it now it would seem - as Armenia has largely failed in the propaganda war - even if victorious militarily). However, ultimately - NK/Artsakh is not viable as a nation - IMO. (To some extent I think this about all these little countries in the Balkans and Caucuses). At the very least some form of regional confederation will be necessary for them (Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan) to survive - IMO. In the short term I think that Artsakh/NK must hold out for some degree of secure and reconizable autonomy (even if within the Azeri State...though not a preferred solution) and ultimatley perhaps union with Armenia. In the longer term I would like to see the Russians out of the Caucuses altogether (just a dream for now)...and perhaps one day even the Northern Caucuses peoples can be free...(of both Russia and of their own inept Zealot warlords...)

So true - and quite a sore spot for the Greeks these days (justifyably). The Four Horses of San Marco originally graced the Hippodrome in Constantinople did they not? And they were taken by the Venitians and placed upon their palace (I had thought?). You are right however - these recyclings of art/architecture have occured throughout history by nearly all conquoering gruops. I can recall that while in the Yucatan there were Spanish buildings where you could see bits of Mayan releifs (and of course all of the goldwork the Spanish melted down...) - just as you discribe with the Byzantine (Christianity has been most guilty of such has it not? And now Taliban carrys on the tradition in a sense...) And previously, as the political winds/alegiences shifted, the Mayan themselves would bury/build upon temples of their own disgraced gods with their new ones - etc. Do you think that the Turks will ever press the Germans for the Pergammon artifacts? (The museum that houses such is a crown jewel of Berlin). I was quite taken with Pergammon and was very saddened to see only a big Oak tree where the temple of Zeus once stood - such a glorious sight that must have been in its day... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:paul bunyan do you really know how lord elgin "saved these priceless antiques in the nick of time"? he hacked them off the walls of the parthenon, where they had stayed for centuries and were in no danger of being destroyed by the turks. it is true that turks fed some (quite a few, admittedly) marbles into lime quarries, but so did everybody, and not just in the medieval and modern times: byzantine greeks "recycled" most pagan greek heritage they could lay hands on, as a result today you see classical greek columns and other bits peeking out of byzantine church walls etc. the romans also stole and recycled many such things. and so did the crusaders who had invaded constantinople in 1260 (date may not be accurate): do you know the story of the four horses at the cathedral of san marco, venice? check somebody out on that. regards,

Naira - Here is the URL for MOB - http://www.mailorderbride.net/ I could not get the realplayer video to run - I will ask them whats the buzz... The still pictures were made from outakes of one of my videos...(hardly does it justice of course). You wil not find me credited BTW (at least I hope not...I asked to remain anonymous)

quote:Originally posted by naira: ?Hm, so you're a professional video-amateur? LOL – yes all of the above. Of sorts….I must admit though – I am woefully lacking in exposure to avante garde film and am unfamiliar with the artists of whom you speak. I have concentrated more in music, really…even if I (to some extent) do video/films for a living (I also do weddings [some, on the side & for friends etc]…LOL…though I have done a few pretty cool surreal/special effect weddings – for some more off the wall friends)…its not exactly my main line off work – I am a bit of jack-of-all-trades really and am into a lot of things (as much/more non video related as is…though I have my way of tying it all together…conceptual continuity as it were… …I have friends/colleagues who are very into filmmaking (& television) (much more so then I in this sense)…they do the various festivals..Sundance and stuff, and are more commercial than I. I am mainly a producer/director anyway…though I get involved in all aspects of course including editing/post production, talent, etc…. I appreciate your introducing these experimental filmmakers and the Armenian connection….I will try to check some of them. Are you familiar with Ara Ernjakian’s “Deadline in Seven Days” (Zhamgedeh Yot Or)? Ernjakian is a director from Armenia. I got to meet him and see this film several (10) years ago (when it came out) – and it has left a lasting impression on me – as a powerful and awesome film. The whole audience was silent – almost in a state of shock after the film – it was unreal. (I wonder if anyone who might read this would know if this film is available on video anywhere [with English subtitles of course])… quote:Originally posted by naira: oh, yeah, I'm not that young! LOL... Well perhaps I am not that old (as some seem to think)…LOL…I’ve always gone for older women BTW (not that I mind young ones… …I never saw you as a teenager anyway girl! Not with your obvious experience (intellectual) – it is obvious you have been around a bit. It is a shame that you have had only limited exposure to some very interesting music though. While some is certainly dated – it is all still music that I enjoy and think is worthwhile. I would highly recommend Bill Nelson to you (he is very into Jean Coucteu and surrealism and sensualism…as well as music concret and some very interesting drum machine techniques). I particularly recommend “The love that whirls – diary of a thinking heart” (mid 80’s vintage…and still “fresh” and “After the Satellite Sings” (mid 90’s)…And of course Frank Zappa (try “one size fits all” “Wacka Zawaka” “Burnt Weenie Sandwich”…for me all!) He was the grandfather of all modern non-corporate music as far as I am concerned and one of the greatest artists of our time. And you, being sexually liberated and suspicious of religion etc – will appreciate him all the more…he was/is a top notch social critic as well. I would suggest Ornette Colemen for you if you wish your mind truly blown away by testing the limits of music/jazz…his music varies quite a bit – phases – some take getting used to…all are cutting edge/out there… (I used to know this Swede who made a documentary of Ornette – but I never did get to see it and lost touch with him as well…shame… . And you have never heard of/heard the Tubes!!!!???? When Nina has done the cover of their “big tune”??? You must check their stuff on napster or the like or go out and buy “The Tubes Now” or other early vintage…And of course there is GONG. You will like them (because they are [in part] French). I recommend “Angels Egg” (very dreamy)…part of a trilogy (Pot Head Pixies)…very hippy dippy stuff…but still nice. And that is all (mostly) old stuff - there is much of (near?) equal interest going on today (though I fear Frank Z can never be replaced...) I still owe you some URLs…I’ll look into it…later….

Well then accept my apology for misrepresentation. I often have trouble finding the right word - or use them loosly - and I know this can lead to misunderstanding. It is a flaw of mine - I am aware. I only ask that you pause before jumping upon a particualr usage or comment - and if not clear please ask - I will always be happy to elaborate/clarify (or profess my ignorance...)...and I accept substitutions/editorial input...my feelings will not be hurt.

Armenians have barely been able to help their own (Karabagh). Just with what have Armenians been able to offer the Kurds/PKK - besides perhaps some moral support?

MJ - I refer to your comments concerning the Armenian Church (which I can understand [and agree with]) - but I don't know enough to judge as harshly as you do. And Ara's comments about our leaders and the inability of Armenians to congeal in general. (Is that clear enough?)

Hovik - agre on both counts. I have in the past used the Mehmet Ali Acga situation to illustrate - "do the acts of one/a few condemn an entire nation". Obviously the (preconcieved) answer of the Young Turks/CUP was YES. So has the current Turkish State changed in this perspective? Are the Turks (still) such (uneducated/unaware/willing to hate/generalize) sheep that they will (believe/follow/unquestion &) act on such? And if not what could they do anyway? I still fear that in many ways little has changed (based on empircal evidence) - though I know that in fact there has been (some) change - and I expect the pace and degree of such to grow substantially...sometime soon...I know it will...I know it will...tap 3 times and I will be back in Kanses...eh? ? I have often said that I disaprove of the methods, tactics and outcome of the actions of ASALA (killing of innocents - even the poor Diplomats [with families etc]...) - and I do - I think that ASALA is wrong! all wrong - and also very bad for our image (feeds Turkish propaganda more than our own) - but I also must confess that deep down I (would) get a certain inner sense of satisfaction when one of the unacknowledging unrepentent (Turkish Diplomat) bastards went down!

Naira - Reading your thoughts has been a pleasure. I share your positive attitudes (though with some reservations of course)- even if I do not always show it. I will address some of your points in time. (they are all good ones I think). Briefly (?) - I have a number of Jewish friends in Paris - one is an activist/educator regarding the Holocaust (and is a concentration camp survivor) - he and they understand that Armenians experienced genocide. (Some of these friends are also Turkish - BTW). Do you know Ber Hakim? Some live near there. I attended and videoed (some of) a ceremony where they read off the names of all of the jews who were taken away from the stadium/ & train station which usd to be there. They read the names by box car - in alphabetical order, lists of families etc. I videoed my friends as their parents and siblings names were read. These were people who did not survive. It was very moving - beyond words. I think the Armenians might think to do something similar - perhaps by village.... I don't see the US as so bad as you (and Horvik etc) seem to think. I don't dispute that US policies and actions have often been detrimental to others and suspect in many ways...but overall I think the US is a moral nation and it has shown great restraint and reluctance to impose itself in many ways where it could. (I know & understand the many counter arguments to this). Argue with this all you might - bottom line is I cannot imagine another nation in this position acting any better. I think that overall the US is a force of good in the world. Thats not saying everything is such or that there are those here who act (purely) in self interest to the detriment of others (nor will I defend some of the past history of atrocities..slavery, destruction of native Americans, Vietnam etc) but - if you look at what the US did for Europe, Asia and the world post WWII (and yes you can be cinical about motivation) - but overall we have behaved and given much more than i would expect others to have done - and better then other "victors" have done in past wars etc. And I think the US does much in the world from good intention (enough said..I wont't argue with you on specifics etc - I am very aware/understanding of charges against etc...but still....) The demographics that Israel fears is that if they reconcile with the Palestinians and include them they will eventually be overcome (in numbers) by the higher Arab birth rates...they must get over this I think (consistent with some of your thinking I beleive...) Yes Palestinians are backed into a corner. i have had this discussion with many Jews. "they are so barbaric & ghateful & terrorism is wrong" etc they say...I say - what other option do they have? (Of course I don't approve...but I understand) Agree with your maturation comments - very much so. Not just the Turks..."us" as well. I understand Ara & MJs reservations...but ultimatly I have great faith in the Armenian people. Our maturation will involve shedding our traditional political leadership and establishing bridges etc ourselves. it will happen - we are creative and the tools for such now exist. Unification...does not have to mean conformity... I have had a very good palestinian friend. By his (true) stories alone i can say that Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel...very mush so...and his is not the only evidence of such. Some Jewish friends of mine argue (correctly) that the Palestinians (in Israel outside of the camps of course!) have benefited from Israel - through increased education, standard of living etc. Even throughout the Arab world the Palestinains are the most skilled & educated (Diaspora power baby!)....but of course I could make the same argument for African or Native Americans here in the States. Could I still argue that it is thus justified to withold certain rights and treat these groups differently from the majority, etc? humour noir...no problem...LOL I am familiar with "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman G. Finkelstein...though i have not read it. Some would (and do) say the same concerning Armenians & the Genocide...perhaps true (for some)...regardless I am not a "mixer"....I was on the radio...playing Zappa & Eno & Hawkwind & Genesis & Pink Floyd & Gong & the Stranglers, Kate Bush, Bill Nelson/Be Bop Deluxe, King Krimson/Robert Fripp, XTC, Talking Heads, Nektar, Focus, Peter Hammil, Nina Hagen, National Health, the Groundhogs, Bonzo Dog band, Ornette Coleman, Miles Davis, Passport, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant...I could go on and on and on (have you ever heard of many of these groups? Likely most are before your time...I do listen to new stuff to...i keep up pretty well actually). I was not very popular (and now of course am even more obscure)...but perhaps I was educational to a few (and I still turn on some "youngsters" today to hidden treasures...). Do you know the Tubes? (White punks on dope...covered by Nina Hagen (TV-Glotzer)?...ooops I devolved into music again (my first love...)

I think I can agree with most everything you have said here. quote:Originally posted by naira: THOTH, baby! Israel is considered by Europeans as a non-european democracy. It is not my caprice. But most of Europeans think that Israel while being a democratic society - has a "deep" inclination to religious movements. Though being a secular society the religious presence in israeli democracy is a undevisible "reality". So I cannot consider a society to be democratic while religious influence domintaes social values. Which is not the case in Europe (exept may be Portugal, Ireland and Italy). But again there is nothing to compare even with those strongly influenced by religion european democracies. If the citizens are all composed of a specific religious group I don’t see a problem in a religious based Democracy (and considering it as a Democracy). The issue, in Israel (or similar) case is IMO – are minority (religious/ethnic) groups allowed full rights – both in terms of government access (as citizens and to be elected/with political parties) and are they free from undue discrimination and ability to practice religion and to own property and such. I think that perhaps Israel has a mixed record in this – though not al bad. Most of the problems come, I think, from extremist groups who are able to influence the Government. quote:Originally posted by naira: I thought you brought the example on Israel to demonstrate the controversies of European political picture as far as we were discussing about the US and the Europe. But now, It's much clear, after you explained your example. Israel is not in an easy situation. I don't think it's an apartheid society, but may be too "religious". Meanwhile the biggest dilema of Israeli society is that it does elect governers who do not ease their situation. Pardoxicaly, Israelis want the protection and peace, and they vote for a government which seeks militarism and colonization of palestinian territories. There is no realistic compromise, but a huge tension and deadly confrontation in this region. After all I'm sure that compromise will be found shortly. I see it as apartheid to an extent – because like you have implied – those who are not Jewish are second class citizens – it is considered to be a Jewish State. I am not so confident that there will be compromise. In fact Arafat had a very good offer from Barak that could have been the basis for such – he wanted more – he gambled and he lost big time. His refusal to deal on Jerusalem opened the door for Sharon – the worst scenario for the Palestinians – IMO. I used to be an apologist for Arafat…I don’t think I am any longer. There are Jews in Israel who want peace – and they are active – they fight an uphill battle. Much of the extremism of the various Israeli Governments, however is due to the undue influence of minority right wing religious factions needed to form coalition governments. These groups see their narrow goals/aims first and peace second. Many of these Jews are very racist against Arabs as well. They are a minority – but the wield power beyond their numbers – and they receive supported from – IMO – misguided American Jews who are one dimensional in their view of the conflict and of Arabs etc. quote:Originally posted by naira: I don't think there is a Palestinian threat. Palestinians were living there during centuries and they were forced to leave their home when the state of Israel was established in 1949. The only reapproach that one can make to the arab world is their hostility against the existence of the Jewish state and the resistence to recognise it in the beginning. But today after many years of war, I think Israel really doesn't meet serious resistance from the Arab world. The Israeli state is mostly recognised. Now the next step is to define borders and return palestinian refugees and of course to stop colonization of occupied territories. I disagree – there is a Palestinian threat (regardless of the dynamics of how it came into being). Young Palestinians are radicalized and many have become single minded racist religious zealots willing to sacrifice themselves against Israel. I would call this a threat. Sure – the Arab world itself is largely cowed (payoffs from the US can blunt any [for the most part originally only] half-hearted rhetoric…etc). quote:Originally posted by naira: I'm just so simply and easily distributing solutions, you see Yea, me too, see we are Armenians….don’t let anyone say otherwise…LOL! quote:Originally posted by naira: Majority of Israeli Jewish will affirm that the war against arab world is a "true" one. They will affirm that they only want to return what they consider to be their historic motherland. It is understandable, but not realistic...Sorry! I think peace will only come with a reconstitution of the State of Israel which fully includes Palestinians as partners. The (legitimate) fear of Israel is the demographics…but unless they do so – IMO – they will always have bitter Palestinians at their doorstep ready to oppose them… quote:Originally posted by naira: Do you imagine if now diasporan armenians will aim to get back their historic lands in the Eastern Turkey, which they were forced to abandon 86 years ago? What a disastrous idea! I have always spoke out as such – that to contemplate such is folly and misguided – and even if it were militarily possible (which it is not – nor will it likely ever be) – I would still oppose such – as it is just wrong! We have no right to do to innocent people what was once done to our own. (in a nutshell). We must rely on the eventual maturation of the Turkish State and people to eventually come to some accommodation (access/inclusion etc). (and one day when the concept of a nation-State is perhaps not so rigid who knows… In the mean time any talk or reconquest or hope that the UN or some such will grant lands is just a pipe dream. And will you and the other well off Armenians of the West really move to Eastern Anatolia to repopulate? I don’t think so – not in any great numbers anyway. I mean folks are streaming out of Armenia now…come now I say. And for these thoughts I have been branded by some Armenians as a nay sayer/traitor or worse…etc (some commonly call me a Jew lover as well…LOL (doesn’t bother me – I love all peoples) quote:Originally posted by naira: I do not sympathise any participant in Israeli and Arab war. I think there is so much hatrid between them, that I refuse to side any type "good" and "true" hate. Hate is hate! I'm not supportive of any hatrid! Why Israel is not a democratic country? While being participant in a bloody war against arabs it does choose partners which have a pretty fat "criminal" past. I feel the opposite – I sympathize with both sets of peoples – very much so – for a variety of reasons….Its their leaders whom I have problem with…. quote:Originally posted by naira: I can't accept Israel having good "sweet" relations with Turkey, because it is the only option for this state. It is too ugly to justify that Israel needs vitaly some partners in the region. Israeli government knows very well what does represent in reality the Modern Turkish Government and political institutions (it's post-Ottoman junta dressed like Brittish Queen. Sort of camuflated in european look miltary democraZy). Israel Knows what happened in the past of the Ottoman Turkey and it does everything to side Turkey in its denialist policy towards Armenian Genocide. I call it regional "conformism". Some will say it's politics. In that case I'd say it's dirty politics BTW!!! You cannot side openly Turkish state's denialist position and ask reparations from ex-nazi Germany. It's nothing else but hypocrisy in its ugliest appereance! Yes – I too have my problems with this relationship – very much so. But I understand it fully…on the Government level. I take issue with the individual Jews who support such however – they should have more sympathy…and it is hypocritical. Not all Jews are comfortable with this arrangement either. And most all Jews I have met (a great many) acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. I understand your specific position of Israel (holding it to a higher standard) – and I share this. However, the US and other western nations also are tight with Turkey. Should not they also be condemned? quote:Originally posted by naira: Israel is far from being a democracy. It's a quazi-millitalitarist and quazi-mono-religious society tied by the existential war with its neighbours. Though being well-organised and economicaly developed, Israel stays suburbian "democracy" where the rights are distributed selectively. Yes, perhaps…(I have run out of time)…later

I wouldn't put any faith in this report. It seems identcal to one spread around last year. Don't you think it is odd that the Turkish media would have details concerning what might have been discussed at such a mythical meeting (and who is to say these sort of meeting don't go on all of the time)...still...sillyness IMO...Again - certain elements in Turkey trying to keep the Armenian & Kurd as villian images alive...(and now both cooperate against the Turkish State)...ooh...aah...we must obtain more attack helicopters and crush them etc. - seems to me most of the shooting has been one way of late.... quote:Originally posted by MosJan:A TURKISH SOURCE INFORMES ABOUT A MEETING OF THE LEADERS OF ASALA AND PKK 13.06.2001 /PanARMENIAN.Net/. "Mediamax" informs that Anatolian agency has spread information about a meeting of the representatives of the leadership of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and ASALA (Privy Army for Liberation of Armenia). According to the information of the agency, ASALA was presented at the meeting by its "leader Simon Zakarian and the director of the political wing Vazgen Petrosian". According to the report of the source, Zakarian claimed to the leaders of the PKK that "after the decision to stop military operations against Turkey Kurds should not rely on the support of Armenia".