THOTH

Agree 100% on the taxicab confessions. Couldn't believe when they said - "we are Armenians!" LOL - thay were pretty awesome... As for the wine yes...earlier tonight we finished off a '98 Bueacastle Chateneuf de Pape - truly a great great wine (and on eof my all time favorites!)...and more recently I've been working on some (California) Dry Creek '97 Merlot reserva - powerful in itself - but no where in the same ballpark as the Beaucastle - so I can't spell (or type)...whats new - I can't spell or type anyway...doesn't mean I'm drunk...though in this case you are quite right! Looks like I finally lost again - Fantasy Football...hopefully Marshall isn't hurt serious...what's with your team? Looks like Tigrannes won though (finally)...good for him...his team can put up the points - I warned him about consitency though - as a long time fantasty football player I have learned the value in consistency (therefore strong RBs)...and i feel very justified having picked Harrison over both Moss & Owens - never doubted that pick for a second...

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Furthermore there are other issues with Turkey. First - the whole Muslim thing, Secondly - your issue if economic liability - very valid, and third - there is concern that the European nations will lose that ability to control the (influx and settlement of) cheap Turkish labor/immigrants...and what is to be done about this - eh?

Haven't ever seen any of these others - to bad - there is plenty to be made fun of between Armenians & Turks - IMO. Too bab I missed these othwers. Anyway the host & guests & overall portrrayal of the (TV) Turks was quite amusing . Having know a few "happening" Turks - this show hits so close to home. As I am sure the Armenian used car salesemen skit would. If anyone has ever seen taxicab confesions- wirth the 2 Armenian guys - I'm still rolling over that one...

Back to the original issue. God & good. I really truly think that if one believes in the God (of the Bible - old & new T) of the Bible - then one is worshipping a being who is inherently evil/counter to man and man's humanity - at least if you consider what he has supposedly done to humans - pretty nasty fellow if you ask me.

Welcome Cavalera - SOD are awesome - I agree - I have been getting many of my (initially skeptical) non-Armenian friends into them. I thin Serj & co. are very special - what do you think? Tell us more...

Did no one see this Saturday Night live skit but me? If not you gusy really missed out on some funny stuff - particularly for us Armenians...Oh well...

Hovsep - I think I get your point. But from an American perspective Turkey isn't necessarily all that different then other European nations. There are some real differences though - below the surface - issues that we have already brought out (human rights issues - military role etc) . Though i'm not sure if those that you mention are the real ones...the Muslim thing, well, it depends on the Turks - it could be an issue or a non-issue - IMO. We'll just have to see...

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:

Just saw this - it was a skit on Saturday Night live - very funny. It was supposed to be like a Turkish David Letterman. It portrayed the Turks as slovenly/cheap like - everyone was smoking, all their names were pretty funny. There was a bit with this aging Turkish supposed beauty queen/actress. Her 2003 pin-up calender - embarasingly "used" by the co-host...(with her hideous face on the cover) was shot entirely at an oil refinery in baku. At one point they were putting down one of the co-host - and he replied indignantly something like - "what do you think I am an Armenian" or something of that sort. Too bad I didn't record it...good for family gatherings & such...just joking...but it was pretty funny... [ November 09, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Well looks like all your left to do is to down a pan galatic gargle blaster...

vava nice post. I share all of your sentiments. Just make sure you have your towel with you at all times...

Azat - well no - the gals were terrified to get in the car with me driving (actually my wife wouldn't let my son go with us...probably a good call - we were cruising around San Juan at around 1am - in the city - doing anywere from 70mph - 90mph depending on how much weaving room between the other cars there was...LOL...)...actually several of my friends will not get in any car with me driving - LOL (but they are just wimps)...but, no gals this time. Sorry to disapoint...

Accelerated - truly great car - always a favorite of mine. I also thought to get a 93-95 a few years back (Turbo)- when it was about $20-24K (used) - new was $45k or so - too rich for my interest. But as I already own a number of cars I never made the purchase (wanted to so bad though - fun toy!). And now of course with the WRX and the Audi S4 I have some other options of similar performance (but w/awd etc). Still that Supra handles great and with the Turbo is very very fast. I actuly have driven one (2? years ago)that was seriosly hopped-up - larger Turbos, intercooler, exhaust mods & chipped....almost 500hp as I recall (may have been as "little" as 450 though...somewhere between that at 500) - well it was fast and it handled brilliantly. At one point a new Camarro (not the SS) pulled up to a light (in the shoulder lane) to race us. I blew him off big time - not even close! It was the fasted car I have ever driven in my life - significantly faster then my brother-in laws Acura NSX (also a very nice drive). So good luck on job/internship what ever...and enjoy the car if you get it (still pretty fast/fun....but try not to get into too much trouble..and don't drink and drivbve that thing - not a good combo... Look Azat - I didn't even mention girls once! (well just once just now...)

Domino - yes I am too nice...and you are so cruel by such a comment...how dare you! LOL! The world could do with a whole lot more nice IMO...perhaps we need another Stalin to make it so! (OK - thats humour...not funny/understandable to most I guess...aw who cares...I am going back to enjoy my wine...)

OK Boghos fine - truce? We disagree (somewhat) concerning Ali. All I have asked is to be a little nicer - certainly you don't have to be - this is up to you - and you can do as you wish - but I like Ali (and don't fully see your objections to him - is this because I understand the Turkish mind-set better then you - or vice versa or...who knows? - maybe saome of all...) - and yes - the idea of "good" (or at least rational/open minded) Turks (and/or non-Armenians in general with an interest in Armenians issues) being involved and contributing in this forum is something that I value. So I am for encouraging not discouraging behaviors. And like MJ says - we are a window to the rest of the world - and I would prefer (my bias is) that Armenans are seen as accepting at least somewhat of others and not just inward looking - unable to be flexible and such...but maybe I'm wrong (about Armenians...) - well I know Armenians away from this forum too...(and I'm also not disputing here that some of what Ali says may be offensive or incorrect etc)... BTW - my goal in publically opposing the Nick's etc of the world is not to convince them to believe that the Genocide actually happened. I know that no one can do that. It is to do my best to ensure that the fence sitters - be they Turks or whoever - who aren't sure of the facts - are not convinced the other way by the psuedo truths and outright lies of the other side. I happen to think this is a worthwhile effort (though am currently a bit btrnt out so I'm not so active on the boards of late...and of course there is a dearth of quality opposition!). Anyway I feel that I have at least a few success stories (that I am aware of - one of which is now very active doing "real" worthwhile work supporting Armenian Genocide and related causes). And even if by my opposition I cause the deniers to pause a bit and not be so zealous in spreading their lies - knowing I will show them for what they are - this too is a positive impact IMO. Domino deserves even more credit then I in this regard. But it is your right to believe otherwise I don't wish to dictate your thinking. However I do think it is something valuable and I think that any progress we make will be from the masses not necesarily the elites (and most of these masses don't reread...unless its phospher...).

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: But - my how soon we forget. You don't seem to recall the days - not so far distant - on the Middle East Forum and the Turkish Crimes against Humanities Fournm and on some others where besides perhaps Fadhi - I was the chief opponent of Genocide denying Turks and Turkish supporters such as Nick - remember him, and Ismet (the hysterian), and various others..etc. Do you recall? I was engaged - daily - in intensly debating these folks who took every oppurtunity to put Armenians down and to justify (or deny) the Genocide. Don't forget that basically I was the only one (besides Fahdi of course)who could regularly put Nick and Ismet & Co in their places and defeat their arguments (Armenians from all over were begging me to fight against these guys - really). These encounters were both (IMO) - very serious - as well as sometimes somewhat comical (Ismet certainly was - I admit - though he seemed to do a good job intimifdating a lot of Armenians into silence). I was always ready and able to defend the truth and Armenian positions and oppose Turkish disinformation. So I very much have put in my time with this sort of thing and don't shy away from conflict - if needed. Yes - and I recall trying to draft you to participate more and support us - but you weren't really interested. So please don't brand me as some sort of supporter of genocide denial and poor Turkish human rights practices or whatever. I have fought some pitched battles over these issues and you have no right to brand me as some apologist or softy or such. Additionally - I also must say that except perhaps in the case of the clown Ismet - I always maintained a civil exchange - (and even with him -= but I felt I had to one up his various put downs) and you must admit that in terms of taking positions: My position and those of Nick & Observer and (the architect guy - always posting pictures of Istanbul buildings & such - anyway forgot his name) and all the rest - were IMO much farther apart and inherently more confrontational then anything between Ali and the rest of us here...and I certainly didn't have to resort to putting people down in petty ways etc (except for Ismet who fully deserved it of course).

Hey stuff it Boghos! Look - I can't help it if you're already getting bitter and nasty because of "sexual withdraw" or such after less then one year of marraige. (and I thought they had lots of prostitutes in Brazil - so whats your excuse?). Please try to not take out your frustrations on forum members because of your personal issues...no need to not be polite... But yes, I can disagree with Ali on some fundemental things and still be civil and apreciate his perspective and his attempts to understand us (well - I'm hoping for the latter anyway...). I think you guys are just spoiled - take a look at the web sites I linked to above and see the true ugly faces of some Turks. So yes - I feel that Ali is deserving of some respect and civility even if we don't agree with all he concludes. And I know I may be in the minority - but I think that he is on the level - from his perspective. And yes - I know that most Armenians fail to appreciate Turkish realities. I don't see myself as an apoligist for the Turks - even though in specific cases I may play that role (as counterpoint). Turkey and the Turks (in general) have tremendous problems/issues IMO - but that does not me we can't consider these (Genocide/political etc) issues with more balance and not always be on the attack. Look i am as frustrated and angry with the Turks (nation/government/some of the people) as any other Armenian. And I can't help it if you feel you need to get your jolies by mocking me. I don't care if you disagree with me - but why the need to express it in such a juvinielle way? OK - my perspective differs from yours - doesn't mean that you are right and I am wrong - and you are mistaken if you think my positions have no basis. I stand by my statements. Perhaps my wording has not been ideal and i have not made my points clearly - fine (certainly your synopsis bears little on the reality of my position - IMO)

Ali - Unlike many others here I don't think your such a bad guy. I don't see eye to eye with you on many things - and see many of the critiscims of some of your statements here as valid - but I think I have an appeciation of why you say what you do and why you have some of the views that you hold. Again - I don't think that exchanging insults or driving people away will get us anywhere - and I do think it important that our message (basically the truth) is heard by as many Turks as possible - even if only a few will perhaps ever be able to digest it. So others here see you as disengenuous and playing a game with us - I don't agree. I do think that you are somewhat blind as to why certain assertions and positions you take are very angering to Armenians. I know you view yourself as one who is compromisng and being very progressive just by talking to us civily and acknolwedging the Genocide etc - but in fact this is not enough. I think you have much baggage still to shed to fully appreciate this issue (in your heart) and aquire the "right" perspective (concerning what matters most in terms of truth and human justice). Of course many on "our" side also suffer from biases, blocks and such (many here will say that I do...and I am sure that they are correct) and I think that we too can benefit from a better understanding of why you (and other Turks) hold certain positions...and some here may not even be aware of certain facts/perspectives and such that you might understand (though many of us do understand some of these things - but still may disagree with your conclusions and/or perspective). Even in disagreeing it is important to be able to understand other perspectives - IMO. Anyway I do wish to counter one assertion that you (and other educated Turks I have come accross) continually make - that of Turkish apathy towards the Armenian issues. I think when you say this - and I understand what it is you are saying - it must be caveated. The "common" Turk just does not have much exposure to this issue and tends to not worry about it much anyway - being more concerned with daily matters of life - just as most Americans are probably only dimly aware of the nuances (or even existance) of most national and international political/economic issues (at best). Additionally - your elites have many other pressing problems/immediate concerns/threats/etc - and the "Armenian Issue" ranks low on the radar scope - except of course when media attention makes it visible...(Ararat movie comes out in a few days BTW...). Still I must disagree with this concept that the Turks (as a group) are not very concerned about the "Armenian issue". As proof I offer the following URLs for your viewing pleasure: http://www.eraren.org/ http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/eh/eh08/default.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/eh/eh11/default.htm http://www.turkishforum.com/ http://www.ataa.org/ http://www.tadf.org/duyurular/samweems.htm http://www.ksu.edu.tr/ermeni/ http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/armen...enian/index.htm http://www.tetedeturc.com/Armenien/default-armen.htm http://www.armenianreality.com/campaign/ca...ian_lobbies.asp http://www.angelfire.com/dc/arastirma/tw007-01.htm http://www.turkses.com/index.asp#top http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/ http://www.armenianallegations.com/

quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Winston, The armed forces are not the "guardian" of democracy in any democratic country. They don´t unseat elected representatives nor ban parties. Well understood. I was commenting on the term and its use. Guardians of democracy in reference to keepijng the world/west safe from totalitarian's like Hitler & the commies etc. (external focus) Of course this is a different usage. And if you ever were to have as much contact with the US military as I have had then you would come to understand that they certainly see themselves as preatorian guards. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Of course democracies have numerous checks and balances. The Courts and the Legislative being the most obvious. They do not answer to the military. Agreed. However, I am not sure any of us really knows what true democracy is - and there is certainly no true expression of it at the national level anywere. Each supposed democracy is a facimile of some sort - an interpretation - using different models (from a common ancestor/roots - Locke/Hobbs/Mill etc) - but in each case rules for representation (political parties), for forming governments, making laws etc have been enacted that set the stage for what is allowable and what is not - often - particualrly in the US - with the eye on ensuring that no radicalism of the day will ever take over and such. Very often I feel that my views/interests (that I know are shared by many others) are not very well represented in (my national/state or local government - nor will they likely ever be within the (essentially) two party system practiced by the US. Certainly if these views were to gain hold in the mainstream or if those who felt as I do (hypothetically) were to make great effort to be heard - then it may come to be so - and there are a number of avenues for this. So perhaps we are at least near to democracy in some sense - and certainly nearer then Turkey is - how could I not agree with that? As for Turkey - I don't disagree with your assertions whatsover - I the final sense...though in the practical day-to-day sense I think things are perhaps less bleak then the picture you paint. Certainly I think we all agree what the significant problems/shortfalls are - certain expression strictly curtailed, rampant human rights abuses and the draconion power of the Army is certainly less then ideal. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:They are unlike many Latin American countries indeed. The military have next to no importance in most countries with the exception of Venezuela and a few other very minor players. If you have a different perspective and especially facts let´s have it. Not that this has any relevence to the discussion at hand. In this case I was mearly refering to the tendency of South American militaries to be party to coups and such (much like the Turkish military has been). Certainly we have seen this fairly often, lets see - Brazil! - 1964, Bolivia 1970, Chile 1973, Argentina 1976, Honduras 1984, Venezuala 1986 (to present - and like you said much like Turkey), Panama and Guatamala (in general/various), Paraguay (sort of)...I don't know - but when I think South America I think (pretty much) of the military hanging around waiting to step in. I mean look at Columbia right now - etc. Sure there are perhaps some legitimate reasons...but still in a sense I see many situations simlar (in many respects) to Turkey. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:As to freedom of the press you seem to have a slightly biased position. Just look at any credible source for journalistic freedom. I will leave the issue of language aside for the moment but just remind you of a story of a Kurdish student that asked for a Kurdish language course and was jailed and tortured. After Turkey complied with EU demands, by the way. Shall I post the link ? No (no need) - I don't dispute this at all believe me. However on the surface - within the mainstream - there is much open debate and critism of the Government etc in Turkey. Sure its not a totaly free press - and the type of abuses of which you speak are rampant and well known - but its not Iraq for instance...and on the surface it has all the appearence/feeling of an open society...but I ageree - it certainly is not. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Freedom exists mostly within Ataturk´s ideological legacy, whatever that is deemed to be. Correct - and this is a big problem. They are constantly trying to justify based on this model - and in some cases it seems the results are pretty twisted. Makes me think of "Mountain Turks" and "happy to be a Turk" - that sort of thing... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I understand your feelings of sympathy towards Turkey. But of course it blurs objectivity. No - I am objective regarding Turkey - my "sympathys" only extend so far. What I feel is that most Armenians are so anti-Turkey that their perspective is bluurred and they are quick to critisize and single Turkey out - etc. I fully understand this of course - but its often difficult to have a conversation with an Armenian concerning Turkey because of all the biases/baggage. Hey - I certainly don't regard the Turks as saints - not even close. And I feel very personally affected - as an Armenian - by the legacy of Kemalism in Turkey...at least the aspect of it that is extending the work of the CUP (by denying the past and with its twisted/narrow attitude concerning minority isues - past and present). quote:Originally posted by Boghos:What, if I may ask, is the danger of not having Turkey in the EU ? With Turkey in the EU they will be bought in - beholden...less likely to rock the boat. Additionally just to obtain membership their society will have to change in positive ways (including lessening of military controls I would think). Overall these influences will spur Turkey to become more European/Western and more tied to Europe/the West. Without this I think there is more of a chance for a radicallized Turkey that is more of a wild card and that could one day turn moere towars the East and the more radical Islamist regimes - as well as internally move this direction (less likely if tied into the EU - IMO) quote:Originally posted by Boghos:When I say "ever" I mean of course in a decent time frame, decades for example. "Never say never" is just a cliche. OK - got it...then I think we agree then...LOL. However I also believe that reality can change in a day. We often cannot predict what new forces/circumstance may suddenly pop up and drive things - one way or another. But I do agree with you - with eveything stacked against Turkey as it is - both internally and externally - not a chance it would seem.

quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote:Originally posted by Domino:I think that TB non-friendly approch in explaining you, has not helped a lot.(specifically because of the unfriendly approch and not the explaination itself). Dear Domino,You are a technically literate person, so you'll appreciate this. Suppose you are solving a nonlinear equation by an iteration method called Friendly Iteration (FI). And after a few iterations your algorithm FI is coming back with the exact same number that you started with. You may reasonably decide that your FI approach has failed, and that perhaps a different approach is warranted. Or, depending on how much time you have available, you may simply utter something "unfriendly" about the problem and walk away. My walking away from the "stuck iteration" problem was disapproved by Thoth. Since he is a nice guy, I gave it another go. I am not sure I achieved "convergence" yet, but I surely depleted my emergency supply of patience. And what is this hooplah about "friendly" and "unfriendly"? The most drastic thing I told Nairi was to take a brief break from "thinking", implying that I didn't think she was thinking straight. Gosh, what a horrendous thing to say! Poor, little, fragile Nairi; she can't take such gross abuse. Come on, what you and Thoth are doing is much more insulting to Nairi than anything I have said so far. Are you going to treat her as a peer or not? Let it go. And re-evaluate. TB OK TB - I see your point. Don't agree (entirely) obviously (but I see what you are saying here)....also don't think we (Domino & I) are insulting Nairi (let us know Nairi if you think that we are...). She is at least trying and is not entirely without intelligence or insight - quite the contrary - she comes up with some very insightful/appropriate commentary most of the time - IMO. However some - such as yourself - on this forum - have a tremendous storehouse of accessable data - in your heads or wherever - and quite impressive reasoning ability - very impressive really - but you must understand that not everyone operates at your level - even smart folks. Sometimes you must give the rest of us some slack (and I know that you often do). Sorry that we are frustrating you so - what can be done? LOL

TB - Well sorry I wasn't really trying to offend. I was mostly just playing around (with these last posts) - pulling your collective chains as it were. However my intitial ("don't be mean") comments were heartfelt by me - even if I thought you were making good points and I certainly didn't percieve that Nairi was doing anything but trying to make some sense of some things - and speculating perhaps. So she may have been off the mark in some areas - and you knew better - OK. Doesn't mean that she is necessarily wrong in all cases - we are expressing opinion and attempting to back it up/rationalize...again if you have certain facts/perspective then great - I am finding both of your inputs educational - though I tend to agree that some of her conclusions are questionable - but I'm no expert - but again - no harm in exploring/speculating - and who knows she just may surpise you with something you either weren't aware of or haven't thought of. And I understand that you think she is not approaching the issue academically or whatever - OK - so you point out where she is in error. Thats OK. To me your tone was (overly) patronizing....and though you claim hers was as well...I don't exactly see it that way - but OK - all is certainly within the realm of civil interaction and I had no intention of starting any sort of war or anything. I just felt badly for her due to your tone - thats all. I always find your comments worthwhile - and hers too BTW. As for lumping you and MJ and Boghos...well to me, in general thats pretty good company. (I apoligize though - as you don't want to be "grouped" and I understand that) However I have recently observed (what seems to me) some similarities among all you guys in (negative) attitude of late (you mostly just in this thread...but also with Ali a bit as well...) - and yes I find it a little disturbing and unwarrented (from my perspective) - and I have made my opinion known. You (and others) feel differently I know. But I think you have taken me too harshly - I only meant a mild rebuke - and you disagree - so OK - we disagree. I think I understand why you have taken such a tone with Nairi - but I don't agree regardless (with the extent of negativity in your response). I'm not overly upset - not at all - and it seems you aren't either - so very good! LOL

quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Turkey is an odd country where the guardians of democracy are the armed forces. Yes agree - though one could make an argument (from a certain perspective) that the armed forces of the U.S. (or of the West in general) are the guardians of Democracy...of course this is normally interpreted to mean from external threats to such... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Even many western educated and open minded Turks believe that the military have such an important role in preserving what they believe is democracy. Some key points. First this statement is true and the belief is perhaps true. Key point - "what they believe is democracy"...though in fact - considering the region, the religion, and the history of the Turks - this situation is an incredible thing in itself. And all "democracies" have their own particualr checks to ensure that tyranny is kept at bay...and no democracy is pure. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:This is such plain and obvious symptom of how far from any sort of democratic society Turkey is. Sure - they fall far short in many areas (particualry areas of cultural "sensitivty" including Armenian and minority issues) - yet the semblance (of democracy) is there...including not only diverse political parties but a fairly open press (again with certain limitations). I would argue that this is better then most nations in the world and it does seem to be improving as well. Obviously they are still far from Europe and North America - but not unlike (many) South American nations in a sense - no? quote:Originally posted by Boghos:As to EU, they should simply give up. They will never ever be accepted. The reasons are plentiful. This is perhaps true (for now/short term) - but I think that it is a great shame (for the Turks mostly - though I think [over the long haul] there is great risk to Europe/the West as well - in shutting Turkey out of the EU). I have tried to explain to some neophytyes the (mostly non-rational IMO) hostility towards the EU felt by most Turks...when it is clear that if the reforms and actions needed for EU membership were enacted Turkey would be a much improved nation for its citizens. (I include Genocide recognition in this category - though perhaps this is a less obvious one). quote:Originally posted by Boghos:It is just a minority of the middle and upper middle classes that live in a delusional state believing that their country will ever join the EU. Well "ever" is perhaps a long time. I understand many of the difficulties faced (including just plain predjudice/dislike of Turks/Muslims etc) and Turkey's many shortcommings. Still, never can say never sometime, regardless...

quote:Originally posted by MJ:Thoth, Your insecurity is yielding pathetic results. au contraire...

I am not a linguist or familiar with this issue in any informed way. However it seems to me that Indo-European is more of a category of languages with related origins and not a language in itself(like Latin) from which other languages have sprung. With this being the case don't we just view Armenian as Indo-European? This is do to some commonalities of words (and perhaps structure) - no? But this does not necessarily prohibit language unique words or words diffused from other cultures possessing non Indo-European language. Not sure of this concept of pre-dated words - ie words existing prior to adoption of common forms from other Indo-European tongues. Does this change anything? Ignore this if I am just way off the mark here. Otherwise, your welcome - if this was of any help.

TB - OK fine - a misperception on my part - I can buy that - so I am wrong...no problem. Nairi - don't give up - and don't think that you are not smart or such or that you don't know anything - even if you may go down the wrong path at times. This is called learning - as long as you keep your mind open. TB, MJ, Boghos, (even Hagarag!) and other's here know a lot about a lot of (very diverse and relevant) things and we should be thankful that they participate on these boards and take time with us lesser types (LOL). Don't let (your [?] and) my misperception of their (at times) seemingly snotty attitudes disuade you! (doesn't make me pause even for a minute! After all I accept [the reality of] my misperceptions [take this any/every way you see fit]) MJ - I will be glad to go back and edit my posts (including this one) to take any reference of/to you out - if it would make you feel better...or conversly I can promiss to mention you every once in a while to ensure that you are not forgotton...if it will make you feel better...