THOTH

quote:Originally posted by Sip:Seems to me like God should already know everything I will ever do so it doesn't really matter what I "decide" to do. God already knows it! It does become pretty strange when you take "time" out of the equation, dosn't it?! Yeah - and if this is all true it really should make you pissed off that your going to hell!

quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]What really confuses me with the "God model" (when "good/bad" is concerned) is that well, if God is the almighty being that created everything including time, and space, and the universe, and us, and etc [QB] This strikes me as an extremely flawed an untennable concept. Unless of course we believe that this "universe" that we know/accept is only in some beings mind - a figment - unreality - and we are imagined beings with imagined lives and imagined thoughts...imagined sins etc etc - which begs the question - why should we care - and at the very least why should we care to conform to a construct of us conforming? quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]... then why would God need to "find out" if we are good or bad? Wouldn't God already know everything since time is really not a factor for God? [QB] Yes the what shal be has already been etc etc - so why bother. Bottom line this type of speculation is only that - and there are infinite speculations as to the nature of reality - many even much more plausable then this particualr one invented by our (comparatively) primiative anscestors. quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]Seems to me like God should already know everything I will ever do so it doesn't really matter what I "decide" to do. God already knows it! It does become pretty strange when you take "time" out of the equation, dosn't it?! [QB] Iys not strange at all - its just an example of how silly it is to believe such things in the first place!

Hey TB - don't be mean. A problem I have with you, MJ and occasionally some others is assuming that everyone who posts here is some kind of academic. In fact those that are - and those who think with discipline - as you say - are really a minority. (and some like me don't even type with discipline and certainly can't spell right in any event). Its just the way it is. this doesn't mean that the rest of us don't have anything at all to contribute - or can't learn. Fine - correct mistakes and suggest avenues of exploration etc if you know them - but please resist putting people down. I know its less fun and perhaps more work - but your goal is not to just have a two way conversation with MJ is it? - for that you can use email. I see no need to drive away good, interested people - like Nairi - with such patronizing comments. [ November 05, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Ali - Understood all - and good. but don't worry - they will come around eventually (to what we all know that they are). I think your nation is likely soon to be a battleground (OK - maybe still some years away....but...) - so watch yourself. This is not to say that Turkey won't benefit from some stability in the short term (and getting rid of the Yilmaz's and Ecevit's is certainly a good thing. Still - I can't trust the Islamists - and they are fundementally undemocratic - even if they are posturing themselves as such for the time being. But maybe they will adapt (to survive) and stay somewhat moderate - I really have my doubts though. And I can imagine all the creeping little changes they may try to implement in the meanwhile. Good luck!

MJ - I understand your fear (of the Turks) in the Caucuses. So , yes - saying Russia out of the Caucuses is an ideal - not practical at all for the forseable future. But there are dangers as well to being in a Region where other greater powers (Russia/Iran Turkey/US) have percieved strategic interests and where at the same time there are other baddies out to get you. I'm not sure if Armenian will ever have the strength to go it alone. At some point an acceptable peace and resolution of disputes must be made - not only with the Azeris - but among all of the Caucasaian peoples - and ultimatley with Turkey as well. Anything less (as idealist as it sounds) - seems to me disaster for the Armenians - and perhaps for most others in the region. If the peoples of the Caucuses can't one day learn to get along they are doomed - either to destroy themselves or at the very least be dominated and manipulated by outsiders.

MJ - First of all I have never directly addrressed the concept of Chechen independence except perhaps with an offhand comment that I would one day prefer to see the Russians out of the Caucuses altogether (which I admit is a sort of an unacheivable ideal and I haven't at all entered into any discussion of how I would see a situation in the region where this would be favorable/doable). Nor have I ever expressed any sympathy for the Chechen Warlord/bandits/terrorists - theri actions or their supposed "cause" (outside of the thought that Russian intervention in the Caucuses has not always been beneficial to Caucasian peoples) - I have expressed just the opposite I thought - that I pity the poor (common) Chechens for the poor quality of their leadership. (I should inform you BTW that one of my degrees is in Political Anthropology and I very well understand the manner that "leaders" reflect and arise out of particular cultures and I have at least some general understanding of Caucasian tribal culture) - so I am not entirely naive concerning the Chechens. Equally I understand (very well) the rise of the Chechen gangs in Moscow and other cities in Russia - how they decimated and wrested control (from the ethnic Slavic and Tartar gangs) and escalated the extortion and violence (and the kidnappings/bombings etc) to the degree that it spurred Russina military action. As well I understand the type of threat the Chechens and other Muslim fanatic types pose against the Armenians. I am perhaps less clear on the details of Turkish involvement vis a vis the oil pipeline issue and such - though I understand at least some of this conceptually. I certainly understand the Turks coveting this region and wishing it destabalized - even if I am not party to all of the specifics. So I do think I understand what is at stake. Bottom line I disagree with the thrust that you (and Bogos) make that I am naive about the geopolitics in the region. I think that you have been putting words into my mouth and assuming/extrapolating what I have said to fit a preconcieved notion on your part. Unless you think that my belief that Chechen women and children somehow deserve the punishment metted against them (from both Russian and Chechen actions - as I have previously said) - that this belief of mine is somehow incorect - because that is basically all I have said - then we obviously do disagree. Otherwise I think you are assuming things. I want these Chechen thugs put down as much as anyone - and I worry about their influence (and ability to bring instability and additional violence) in the surrounding region. I also underrstand how difficult it is for a nation to fight this sort of war. Still - I can pity the innocents and decry barbaric acts - even if such acts can be seen as helpful to a cause I might support. You may continue to call me naive or idealistic - maybe so - but I think not. In fact - as an Armenian I feel I have a particular sensitivity to this type of issue - innocents terrorized by the State/by bandits/by what-have-you. I don't know - but this is my take - this is a fundemental part of the lesson I think I have learned from my family's history. (but of course I am just a privliged/liberal softy from a line of such - not some hard Easterner as you!). Obviously my degree of comitment to Armenia is not the same as yours and perhaps others. I don't apoligize for that. Still I find Boghos's assertion that it is of a rotary club/bake sale type of category/mentality very insulting. Just as you say I have no clue about you - equally the opposite can be said to both/all of you concerning me and what I have been able to do for Armenia/its survival that in all likelyhood none will ever know about. And I am sorry but I have to leave it at that. And I have a great interest in possibly doing more - and in possibly not only visiting but moving to Armenia (at least temporarily) - and this was a possibility for me last year and likely will be again in the near future. Though to some degree this would be more for my own (and my children's) education etc then part of any plan to do anything specific for Armenia - but one never knows. Of course this all requires my wife's consent and involvement and some other changes for me as well. Sure I am very used to the comforts of my home (including my cellar! - and as much as I consume it only seems to grow!) - but you might be surprised concerning my adaptability/toughness (though not as sure about the rest of the family). The language issue is of couse another problem for me - and I am very stubbron concerning my ineptitude with language in general. So who knows... Again though - as much as I have sympathy for Armenia (and it is more then this, but...) - I am an American - my family is here, my home is here, and I do believe in this nation - and while I certainly do feel part of the Armenian "nation" and do understand your point in this regard - I am admitedly too assimilated to subsume my loyalties with my "nation" (the USA) to that of Armenia (and I can never see this otherwise...un;ess perhaps Bush was to be President for life or some such...). Feeling ownership (over Armenia) - well I do in a sense - much as I cheer on every Armenian athelete, team, performer, scientist, acheiver or what have you - and think of them as one of my own - but you must understand that for me (Armenia) it is more distant then how some - such as yourself might feel. (will this change if I were to visit or live there - perhaps/likely - but perhaps not...?) I am sorry if you are not satisfied with this - or if it somehow means to you that you feel I am not worthy to discuss matters regarding Armenia - or to express my views on human rights or whatever - but thats just tough I guess. I don't know the answers or such - not any more then you or anyone else does. I may not be as informed as you or others on certain issues - but then again you might be just surprised in some cases. Aren't we all here to learn from one another in addition to showcasing our own brilliance? Bottom line - I don't have to agree with you or with your concept of what is beneficial to say or not in an Armenian public forum. If stifling debate or just putting down people is your idea of acceptable or beneficial attitudes - then I would have to say that I disagree with you again. But perhaps this is because of my background - comming from the more liberal West - where very often I think you do reflect your more Eastern roots. Now will you disprove me and surprise me with (the nature/content of) your response?

Domino - understood. Remember though - nothing lives forever. And our Earth as it is now is like us - only passing through a stage - a glorious stage to be sure! But as I said before - this fate is a long time off..and way beyond our ability to control.... [ November 03, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

MJ - One last thing. I do understand the concept of the current Republic of Armenian as the "Homeland" for all Armenians. I do understand what it is you claim. This concept is not beyond me. I am and have always been very proud of this fact. It means quite a lot (in so many ways) that there is a nation called Armenia. And I do think it is the obligations - to some degree or another - of all Armenians - to make it work - or at least to support this nation in some way.

MJ - I don't agree with you at all concerning your position on Gamovar. And you are very mistaken if you think I don't understand the Chechen situation - not only vis a vis Russia - but concening Armenia and Armenians. I think both of you miss the points Domino and I have made entirely - we are not talking geopolitics or the merits of the "so-called" Chechen leadership - or whether Russia is in the right opposing these guys - but about the suffering of common people. This is our point- and I am just amazed that so many of you (and you in particualr) seem to misunderstand it. Anyway enough of that - if you have not been able to comprehend this yet (and again - if you disagree you will have to be more specific in your claims that we are clueless rather then just stating so). But further - I cannot see how you can claim that either of us are uninformed or blind etc - based on the limited scope of our comments - which - in my case at least - were not intending to address the overall morality/rightness/appropriatness of the Russian actions or how Armenians should view the Chechens (and the threat of the Chechens) or anything of that sort. As for us seemingly talking past each other concerning the Armenia/Turkey/Anatolia what have you and the "land" issue - OK - I admit I have misinterpreted/misunderstood a number of your posts (though i imagine I am not the only one - as you haven't been exactly clear - more like setting a trap - but OK). Equally so I believe you miscatagorize the points I have made. Oh - and I do have a homeland - its called the USA. I have no shame in this - the opposite in fact. I also have a heritage - and it is one I certainly identify strongly with - it is both Armenian - and in a sense Ottoman (and some other things as well) - this is becuase this is what my grandparents identified with/were - so - in a sense I have no choice. Again I never disputed that the Government of Armenia and Armenians from Armenia are somehow insufficient or what have you - again - I have spoken out in the past just the opposite to Diasporan Armenians who seem to think they no better. I don't think I am at all typical of the traditional Disporan Armenian (in this regard) - regardless of your assertions. But Armenia is not my homeland - you are correct. And though I do not see that I owe any specific allegience to Armenia (as my allegience is fully with the USA - as it has to be considering my circumstance) - this does not mean that I do not have a great affinity for my close "cousins" - whose situation/circumstance I attempt to follow - who I pull for and argue for - give money to (on occasion) and have some desire to perhaps one day be more involved with...we'll see. MJ - it seems to me you are not satisfied with and find problems with nearly everyone's views and circumstance. I sometimes must question why such negativity. Sure - you are a smart guy - and in general have a very worthwhile and supportable perspective - but I think this attack mode of yours and the seeming need to put people down is a real problem with you. This combined with a seeming acceptance of some of our most reactionary elements really gives me cause to wonder about you sometime.

What is "good" for "God"?...what is "God"?, what is a "good" "God"?...The only one of these questions we might answer at all with any certainty (I think) is the last - because the answer - being an opinion - is only expected to be an opinion.

MJ - OK - agreed I certainly did. Having re-read your ststements again I do now also see what you are saying - and this can be be no different for any Armenian. Still - if we only let our heart determine our course of actions...well...at the very least we would have many very upset wives - no? (Don't know if that came out properly). Anyway - you may know that I have been to Turkey several times and each time I look around and my heart cries...and cries and cries. At the same time I look around at the innocents/ignorants etc and think - could I "do it" - could I be a Talat or a Stalin or a Hitler and advocate/enact a "solution" affecting millions of innocents - for what? For revenge? For "justice"? For my heart? What kind of heart would I then have? I often even question if for some unfathonable reason/future that Turkey were to say to Armenians - come back to your lands - we have done you great wrong and wish to make amends and even that they mean such through some epiffany or such and offer us a deal beyond our wildest expectations - if this were to occur - how many would come? (to this near barren land of great beauty but without much means for economic livelyhood [and no Big-Macs for Jugs!]) One thing is for certain - those that would - it would be their hearts alone that drove them I think. Perhaps I am wrong - and certainly I imagine (in the very optimistically abstract) that there could be circumstance where such a thing could occur and Armenians could return to that land....but I also dream of Buffalo on the plains, endless forests without pavement, clean air and water, a return to pastoral living etc - all things that too will never come to pass...

Domino - We have a very long way to go until then and by that time humans and life as you now know it will have evolved into something unrecognizable by us today. I worry about similar fates that are perhaps more possible in the short term - like us humans poisoning the earth and destroying what is here and now - and thisgs of this sort. Do you feel any better?

Yes and you are quite proud of this I see: "That is true that after the Hamidiye Regiments, the local people had started to complain about Feudality but on the other hand these regiments had changed the destiny of the region for the benefit of the ottomans."

Cenephekan - did you write this crap? You must be a Turkish PHD - I recognize the style. Well - just chock full of errors - very poor really. This in particualr made me laugh: "or the Armenians, the solution was to reduce the Ottoman population in the east part of Anatolia for outnumbering them. With threats of plundering and the propaganda they succeed to force the Muslims to immigrate from the region, they had done that very easily because the pressure of the Ottoman government was very low in this region of the Empire." Funny how the Armenians were able to force all of the Muslims off the land in Anatolia isn't it? LOL Please tell us what your purpose is in posting all of this. Do you like being laughed at?

quote:Originally posted by gamavor:To all "enlightened" Armenians and non-Armenians that support or tolerate the Chechens cause. First. Let me remind you that those same "freedom fighters", that have no mercy to civilians (read the newspapers from the last year) that have terrorized south Russian towns, have been fighting our brothers in Artzagh, even not for money, but simply in the name of holly Jihad. Second. Those "freedom fighters" love to "fight" with civilians (ask the Russian widowers, rather than armed enemy). Third. In 1993 those "freedom fighters" were negotiating arm deals with their dirty money (mainly heroin and prostitution) with the British government trying to buy "Sting" missiles for the Azery army. Fourth. There is nothing ethno-cultural or national with regard to their cause. Chechens are stinky turks, just like the moron Domino. Their cause is establishment of sheriat as the law of the land (Ichkeria). Their goal is to islamize Caucasus and to get rid not only of Russians, but from all Non-Muslims. Fifth. Chechens are weapon in the hands of the big petrol companies. What is at stake is the Caspian oil. (note that they demanded not recognition of their independence or anything like that, but withdrawal of Russian forces). That's the real "Chechen" cause. OK - I do not dispute this characteriztion of the self styles Chechen leadership. I agree - they are scum. Does this fact give the Russian's carte blanche to do the same? Do you not consider Chechen mothers and children as humans - worthy of life? Again - I can see Turks of 1915 - upset over their losses - unhappy over the recent history in the balkans - and tales of refugees and slaughter - etc - thinking exactly the same way concerning these Christian Armenians who dare to revolt (even if its only a handful) - yes all must pay! quote:Originally posted by gamavor:To those that say that their actions are not terrorist I would just hope that next time those bastards will have relatives among those victimized by the Chechens. Well I agree - these acts are terroristic - and no one can dipute that those who perpetrate them are terrorists. Show us where anyone has said otherwise. I really wonder if you ever learned to read English or do you just like to spout meaningless shit?

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: quote:Originally posted by Domino:[qb] Hey stincky turkish pig,Whatch your mouth.... Yeah - sounds like a Turk alright - the one who would call another Armenian such - particularly another Armenian such as Domino. Who do you think you are Gamavor? Just because everyone doesn't have your facist world view is no cause for slandering them. You are much worse then the average Turk in my eyes - your a pathetic bitter old slug with absolutly nothing to offer anyone.

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:BULLY!BULLY! for aristocratic Istambullian Armenians with roots in eastern Anatolia and a whitewashed American upbringing. CARS is too elitist. We should start a club, Winston, for members of the above with their feet still on the ground and their noses not in the air. LOL - but wouldn't that act of starting a club be an elitist act in and of itself? [ November 02, 2002, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

MJ - of course - that is an entirely different matter. I am in similar situation - and at least a portion of our families holdings is pretty well documented I am led to believe (I have seen [recent] pictures for instance and there are some legal papers and such). If you recall Kocharian's statemtn it implicity implieed the potential for these sort of claims IMO. And who could object - after all clearly this was legally held property illegally taken - etc. Still my optimism on these (private) property issues is only marginally less bleak. There is more (realistic) grounds for claims certainly - and these can perhaps be accomplished at a lesser level then a wholescale population movement or such - as well as have some hope for achievable compensation etc

Domino - OK - I will mourne with you...our 5 minutes of silence are up - now lets move on. Look - all you say is true - but it is so far in the future - beyond our real comprhension etc. And by then we might be able to move it to some other sysytem - and perserve its remneent s etc - whatever is left that is - after we use and abuse it through the milenia...oh and maybe it won't be us...do you thinsk that the decendents of the roaches will be so sentimental - or the bacteria supermind?

Sip - I wonder if you understand fully what it is to be human? Without suffering - or at least without adversity - there is no growth - and often no reason to persevere. I for one don't wish for a Borg type of future (no individuality etc) - though in many ways I do agree we are heading that direction (man-machine interface)...

quote:Originally posted by MJ:To Thooth. Dear Winston, you are good guy, and I would feel privileged to be your friend, if only your Istanbulian aristocratic genealogy may accommodate such a parochial Eastern Armenian like me (the last one is just an attempt to pull your legs). "Cousin" (LOL) I too would gladly be considered your friend and I do not judge one by their geographic origins as many Armenians seem to do most readily. My example contrasting my different background from that of some other Armenians was just to make a point - that we are indeed not 100% the same - many of us have very different cultural backgrounds that leave us still related - but not the same. (And I certainly do see where your Eastern Armenian background makes you somewhat different in outlook then me [as both a descendent of Ottoman/Constantinoplian Armenians and as an American from birth...etc). BTW I also do have roots more eastward (Sivas/Divrik area) - and I am equally proud of them... quote:Originally posted by MJ: You may be a good cousin, but please don't try to run my household. I would never presume to do such and I have often counseled others in the Diaspora to let the Armenians from Armenia chart their own course (and that who are we to presume we know more of their situation then they do). But if you think me ignorant of the Chechen situation - in all its aspects - (and of matters of the Caucuses in general) you are mistaken. quote:Originally posted by MJ: As a parochial eastern Armenian, however, I have all the claims in my heart towards Turkey, and there is nothing that I say or you say, that can change it. And to anyone who wants to make a deal with me on that subject, my answer can be phrased in a way that would be inappropriate for this forum. Well I understand. The highlands of Anatolia are certainly the spiritual ancestral home to us all. But do you indeed see any logical solution to satisfy your desire? I don't. Much like thinking that native Americans could hope to push the white man back into the sea... And are you familiar with Kocharian's statement? If so then you should understand the subtly of its phrasing. And obviously I do not believe that the death and disenfranchisement of our people can be just dismissed without an accounting.

quote:Originally posted by Eduard Markosyan:Face the facts, you start something that you can't finish and you blame others for your miserable life. My my - sounds an awful lot like some Turks discussing the genocide...

Yeah - I saw it -and agree with above comments. It basically was a fluff piece - "The Turks are our Friends" type of thing - what can you say. They deftly avoided any real examination of the Kurdish, Cyprus or Armenian issues - though the one guy from Leigh University (?) did have a good answer at one point indicating that there is more openess and discussion of the Armenian issue - particularly among Turkish Academia - though he added that these academics have come under intense media critiscim. Yeah that lastcaller was pretty good. The show will replay Saturday (Today) at 1 PM I think.

Boghos - not sure if your laughing with me or laughing at me? LOL

Gamavor - I supose you just can't read as well as not being able to think straight. So please read again what i have written. And are you saying that just because the Chechen leadership is criminal that it is OK to adopt a cleansed earth ploicy against the Chechens? Should the Russians have a carte blanche to just do as they please - no limits? If you say yes to these things then perhaps you support the "right" of the CUP/Ottoman Turks to take any extreme measure against the Armenian civilians because of the acts of a few Dashnaks & such - understand my point my thickskulled friend?