Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 anileve jan --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, I was obviously comparing it to modern day capitalism. Are you saying there is a chance communism in the former U.S.S.R. was not better overall than capitalism in the year 2003 in the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, I was obviously comparing it to modern day capitalism. Are you saying there is a chance communism in the former U.S.S.R. was not better overall than capitalism in the year 2003 in the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, etc. Shiner, I sure don't know what communism was like for real, but i DO know what capitalism is like - and while you may argue that i can't compare the two if I don't know one or the other, so can't you. so comparing those two when someone doesn't have a first hand account of what it was like in both is just pointless - what we CAN compare, however, is the theory, and that is what I am talking about really. i can tell you what i know about Cuba from what i heard from my cousin who went there, but that would be long and painstaking, and really offtopic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, Actually I can compare the two from personal experience because I grew up in communist Romania. And I realize you are comparing theories. But ultimately what's more important in your opinion: the theoretical aspect or the practical, realistic aspect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, many of us are from Armenia and have lived under communism and while in theory we were all doing great and we were all "middle class" we all suffered under that system. ANd thus so many of us are in US and other European countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 My mom has lived through communism.... so what? that doesn't make you right... besides, i am not claiming that communism back then worked... and not having worked certainly doesn't imply that it won't ever work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, So you say there is a chance it has not worked. so there is a chance it can fail. And you say you want it /like it because of it's theoretical aims which someday MIGHT work. Correct me if I'm wrong about the above. And I have a couple of more questions just out of curiosity. Under what conditions do you think it could work in the future? And why is it possible for it to fail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Not tonight - it takes a lot of typing. Will reply to that tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I have done some clean up in earlier posts in this thread because of bad language and insults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Armat - and what makes you so sure YOU are right? Edited by Sasun Sasun, what was said in that post that you found offensive/insulting? i was simply saying the same thing he was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, check your PM for the answer. Please keep in mind that I can't do a very fine cleaning up due to lack of time and abundance of cleaning up to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 you know - with all those rules and censorship, this forum is becoming as dull as the armenianclub forum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahumyan Posted December 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Dan, this forum is much better than ArmenianClub, that place is full of proper ddums. Interesting points raised (especially lavash...mmm) However, i think its naive to suggest only suporters of communism are nostalgic immigrants or day dreamers, coz that means you just catergorized any supporter! lol Romania was not communist. How can we say this? Well, we look at how power was concentrated, and it is clear it was not in the hands of the workers, but rather the scum beurocrats... The production was not managed by able people, but by beurocrats... Lenin said that politicians should get as much as highest paid proffesional in USSR, Stalin pissed all over this rule as he built his Dachaus and truunks of Gold. the USSR degenerated, i would like to open a seperate threaad on why USSR degenerated, read Trotsky's "Revolution betrayed". The unsuccessfulness of communism is better than the successfulness of capitalism, and its worry capitalism has supporters still. As for why dont i go to Cuba...What use is that to the workers who toil in Britain, im not doing this for my own benefit, im doing it because i want to release the workers from the hands of the capitalists around the globe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 "Well, no system is perfect, but communism is an unrealistic idea" -Yes ok, i appreciate you making a point...but wait...wheres the explaination??? just one line statement, nothing to back you up...why bother? Explanantion? Well let's see. I thought you were smart enough to know what I am talking about but apparently I am mistaken. Communism is a system that assumes every man is equal and WANTS to be equal. This is simply not so. What rich man would want to give his dollars to a poor man just to be equal? It's not that simple you see, the human race is a selfish race, most of us don't care about others. In communist Russia, when you worked very hard you made almost the same amount of money as someone who didn't work at all. Why would you even work then, if you don't get any rewards for it anyway? This is not my way of thinking, but it is the way of thinking of a lot of people. That's why communism will never work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vika182 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 first of all canada and western europe are socialist not capitalist. heres a better example of asuccessful capitalist system: Japan yea america can blow at times but my parents came here making like $7 an hour 10 years ago and now my mom's a doctor, my dads got a decent job, and im going to columbia university...not too bad. only thing is u gotta be smart to make it here...no ones going to give you success...theyll vaguely mention how to get it and you gotta be smart enough to take advantage of the opportunities. anyway my other cousins who didnt bother educatin' their kids are waaayyyyy richer now....so is america good to everyone? hell no...i mean the hole middle part is pretty much dirt poor...but if youre smart success is there to meet you. anyway stop arguing about which is better cuz its impossible to tell for one reason, communism does not work, it just turns into oppression and a dictatorship, i mean wasnt stalin a great guy? he sent both my great grandfathers to siberia....god know why.... my history teacher said soething very smart to me, communism works on the goodness of man, and capitalism works on greed, opportunism, the bad things of man, hence communism will never work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vika182 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 [Why would you even work then, if you don't get any rewards for it anyway?] oh no you did get rewards...you got them for turning in bad communists so they could be sent to forced labor camps. and if the guy wasnt there when you went to arrest him, youd take the guy next door.....im failing to see the plus side here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 oh no you did get rewards...you got them for turning in bad communists so they could be sent to forced labor camps. and if the guy wasnt there when you went to arrest him, youd take the guy next door.....im failing to see the plus side here. Well I'm just saying what my family has told me. I guess they didn't turn anyone in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Is there no one having an opinion about my exchange with yalpa I posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 (edited) Yeah, none of you know what you are talking about, Domino. First off to say fascism is only possible with capitalism is a highly nuanced definition that Marxists use to raise the glory of their ideology by discrediting capitalism what they conceive as their arch opponent. I think one of the most important books written on fascism has to be "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" by Wilhelm Reich which combines Freudian thought with autonomist Marxism. His essential premise is that people are currently incapable of freedom, and thus fascism cannot just be blamed on a state like many want to believe, but fascism is more than this, it is a way of thinking and a mode of life a whole society must adopt. Reich said that Germans looked to Hitler as a father figure(Exactly like the father of the Turks who Hitler admired) and that the fascism of Germans had a great deal to do with their authoritarian familial traditions. Sexual repression in his work is said to be a big factor in fascism, the more sexually repressed a people are the more authoritarian they will be, look at these strict Islamo-fascists societies like Saudi Arabia where the policemen are forcibly trapping schoolchildren so they die in infernos for breaking the Islamic dress codes(and these codes such as women covering up so only you can see an eye slit is obviously geared to sexual repression).[1] Sexual energy has to go somewhere and if you repress it will create frustration and this is why so many religions downright encourage sexual repression, to keep the population frustrated and incapable of freedom and thus necessary to be lead and exploited. As to Marx I have only read his Communist Manifesto and wasted my time reading the Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte, he talks about needing a vanguard to lead the Socialist revolution. This is downright authoritarian and could very well lead to fascism, like Reich says he is saying that the people are incapable of freedom, but unlike Reich who thinks people are capable of freedom but he does not see this capability currently demonstrated in any contemporary society, Marx believes people are incapable of Socialist revolution and need some heroes, the vanguard, some would be Fuhrers to guide them. Anyone trying to follow Marx's revolution headed by a vanguard and creating a strong state will end the same always. The final outcome of a Marxist revolution is suppossed to really be stateless but this position will never be reached. The state created will just create a new bureacratic class of the state that will displace the capitalists(assuming the Marxist revolution started in a capitalist state, Russia was semi-capitalist when its revolution started). True socialism, worker's controlling the means of production is not possible with a strong state dominating the economy. The only hierarchy or authority possible is the authority Bakunin acknowledges: "In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the bootmaker." Not the kind of authority where you defer to someone because they are an organ of the Soviet state which was state capitalist, as the state controls the entire means of production. Capitalism is where a capitalist possessing class controls most of the production. Communism is socialism, but socialism does not necessary have to be communism. Socialism is just workers controlling production, with no CEOs, no bosses except those who possess a knowledge or skill other workers do not have, this is the only authority possible for true socialism. When people in society are at the point where they are capable of freedom there will be socialism, because capitalism, workers toiling and the dividends to this labor being meted out unfairly because someone owns a business and other usury, is antithetical to true freedom. Most people cannot understand this because they are currently incapable of freedom. [1] Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue "Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers." ... Edited December 18, 2003 by Nikephoros_Phokas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 The Big Brother has ended! It tried to gain countries buy offerings, and gifts, and brotherhood what a contrast to US Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Nice post NP...and Domino...are you refering to this thread?...I must have missed your & Yalp's postings (always good though)...perhaps I was just chatting away somewhere...sorry.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 (edited) Nikephoros_Phokas, did you read what I refered too? Your post do not prove or disprove what I was talking about. And my conclusion on fascism was based on a book which I refered on the other board. Edited December 18, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Communism is a social idiocy that cost millions of lives. It isn't dead. It just has a new name, International Democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Communism is a social idiocy that cost millions of lives. It isn't dead. No that's Stalinism. Communism is just a stupid dream that resulted into Stalinism (and Maoism and many others). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 You know, I don't care what you relativists call it, the idea is still the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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