Why try?

[Sip]

First of all, let me say that this may sound like a depressing post, but it really is NOT. I want you to know I am quite happy in general and very content with life! I basically have all (and more) than I ever wanted or imagined I could have, so that is what really brings up the questions below.

 

Ok, having said that, the question is, why even bother with life? Sure, it feels great. Sure you get to do a lot of stuff that you couldn't do if you weren't alive. But so what? It is fairly obvious that it doesn't really matter what you do ... you will end up dead. There is also another advantage of not doing anything (for those that may bring the bible into this) ... if you don't do anything, then you can't be a bad person ... therefore you can't really go to hell now, can you?

 

I fully realize that this is the same old human existential meaning of life question which really has no answer ... but seeing that so many on this forum have soooo much energy sometimes, get so bent out of shape when things aren't going their way, tend to fight and argue and insult and put each other down ... I can't help but ask ... what is really your motivation? What keeps you going? Why do stuff? Why care about stuff? Why torture ourselves to somehow make things "better" when in the end, it does NOT matter at all in the Universe!

 

(or do you disagree with my last statement ...)

[Azat]

Sip jan,

I have always wondered this as well. And I use to think that it was only me, but your last post made be realize that life is not worth living so I am going to go buy a gun and kill myself. ( maybe I should not put so may smilies as it seems to piss off some people.)

 

I do have to say that I agree with may parts of your post. this is why you will hardly ever find me working a 60 hour week or anything crazy like that. I respect my family and myself enough to spend time with them and not hide at work. I work to live not live to work. When I get some change in my hands I buy things that make me happy(new cars, vacations all over the world, toys and crap like so) And I tell you. If I ever have 1.5 million in my bank, I am going to retire to some place in Colorado or North Arizona and live my life there and not be slave to some corporate environment.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

First of all, let me say that this may sound like a depressing post, but it really is NOT.

---

Well sure it is in a sense - I mean look what you have done to poor Azat...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

I want you to know I am quite happy in general and very content with life! I basically have all (and more) than I ever wanted or imagined I could have, so that is what really brings up the questions below.

---

Why are you lying to us?

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

Ok, having said that, the question is, why even bother with life? Sure, it feels great. Sure you get to do a lot of stuff that you couldn't do if you weren't alive. But so what? It is fairly obvious that it doesn't really matter what you do ... you will end up dead.

---

True - no one gets out alive. Well - is a tough one to answer - and ultimatly you must provide your own answer. It is clear however that you are not a parent. Additionaly isn't trying to beat my team in fantasy football reason enough?

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

There is also another advantage of not doing anything (for those that may bring the bible into this) ... if you don't do anything, then you can't be a bad person ... therefore you can't really go to hell now, can you?

---

Depends on the particualr doctrine I think...ie concept of original sin, acceptance of jesus into your heart, being one of the chosen 400...etc - bottom line, if there is such a place, neither you nor most anyones chances of avoiding it are that good...hypocrites nearly all... Oh and BTW as you mentioning doing nothing (and the virtue of such) - have you checked out Daoism further?

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

I fully realize that this is the same old human existential meaning of life question which really has no answer ... but seeing that so many on this forum have soooo much energy sometimes, get so bent out of shape when things aren't going their way, tend to fight and argue and insult and put each other down ... I can't help but ask ... what is really your motivation? What keeps you going? Why do stuff? Why care about stuff? Why torture ourselves to somehow make things "better" when in the end, it does NOT matter at all in the Universe!

---

You cannot say that last sentence with certainty. As for the rest I'll stand aside and let the zealots answer for you.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

(or do you disagree with my last statement ...)

---

I neither agree or disagree. I don't know the answer. I find value/worth in other concerns however - one of which is attempting to influence folks to think (and act) a little broader. Also - I really do like life..people, places, things, family, football, wine, music, sex, doing things for others/making them happy, etc etc - are these things not reaon enough? Is being meaningful to others not reason enough?

[Sip]

Although what I said hasn't been true ALL the time, it is very true for me right now. I used to worry about so many things ... get irritated by such little things, even at my brother who would crush the shampoo bottle in the shower to get shampoo out of it, but then would leave it crushed like that.

 

But I changed! I have almost no expectations of anyone anymore ... nothing seems to bother me ... I basically don't care!!! I don't know how it all happened but I do remember one day watching a group of surfers at the beach here having the time of their lives. The smiles on their faces seemed trully genuine ... that's when I started thinking (and that usually tends to get me in trouble )

 

After I slowly stopped caring, I seem to enjoy myself a lot more. I worry a lot less, but at the cost of not being able to accomplish as much as I would have, if I were to constantly worry, try, get irritated, and really apply myself. Heck, I even crush the shampoo bottle myslef these days

 

I think I know what you are saying. I have realized that actually commitments are the only true forces that make me get out of bed each day. Commitments to the credit card companies and banks that I owe money to (student loans, etc etc), commitment to my academic advisor who has invested years of his time in me, expecting I will repay him in some way ... and of course commitments to my parents that I owe a lot of things to (they have expectations and they have given me a lot, resulting in me owing a LOT back to them ). But the list goes on and on.... add parenting on top of that, and now you have a HUGE other list of commitments to your kids, spouse, society (Azat, I am talking a different list now ).

 

Now as far as making others happy, I think it falls in that commitment category. Of course I am the master of myself ... I can do whatever I want. But that should not come at the cost of hurting another. So even if I don't believe there is any point, I still have no right to do something which will hurt others ... because what if I am wrong.

 

Consequently, I am stuck with the commitments

 

Can't really say that I have. It is on my todo list though (but maybe on page 2 for now)

[Sip]

hahahahaha ... I just realized the irony of that! Putting the study of "doing nothing" on a todo list for the future ... ah, I kill myself sometimes hahahahah http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/roflmao.gif

 

By the way, Thoth, be glad you weren't playing me this week! My gambles really paid off ... can you say 124 points?

[THOTH]

Sip -

 

Yeah - congrats on the 124! (I had noticed BTW)...and nipping at my heals there at 4-2. Still, now that Faulk has awoken I have few worries (still I could use a reliable QB - i think I have used a different one each game...)

 

Commitments...a blessing and a curse perhaps...

 

Doing nothing...can sometimes best be appreciated by....well....I think you can figure it out...

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

But I changed! I have almost no expectations of anyone anymore ... nothing seems to bother me ... I basically don't care!!! I don't know how it all happened but I do remember one day watching a group of surfers at the beach here having the time of their lives. The smiles on their faces seemed trully genuine ... that's when I started thinking (and that usually tends to get me in trouble

 

After I slowly stopped caring, I seem to enjoy myself a lot more. I worry a lot less, but at the cost of not being able to accomplish as much as I would have, if I were to constantly worry, try, get irritated, and really apply myself. Heck, I even crush the shampoo bottle myslef these days

Well there is something to be said for "ignorance is bliss" (ie the surfers)...but this "not caring" attitude being the key for your happiness - is, well, I think - shortsighted. I'm glad its working for you at the moment - but in the long run it buts up against your original question - Why try? (etc) and the not caring will leave you wanting I think (though again it can be a short term escape - for those like yourself, and myself - who sometimes care too much/think too much). In fact - I think caring is really the key. When you care - care for others - it makes all the difference in terms of ones purpose in life. You need not worry about that bigger picture when you have a child, a spouse, a lover, friends, reletives etc whom you care for and who (just may) depend on you...or at least who can achieve their bliss in part at least because you do care and act as such on theor behalf.

[Boghos]

I always suspected that Sartres was Armenian...Now, I am sure. Well, this will be it for the moment, lest my wife finds out that I have been at HyeForum during vacation.

[Azat]

Hmmmmmm, Boghos, about a year ago you use to say "my girlfriend", few months back you said "my fiance" couple of times, and now "my wife". Is it true? Did you get married? If so let me be the first to say congrads.

 

Movses. it looks like Boghos may have gotten married without inviting us to the party.

[Sip]

Amen on the think too much thing

 

So now let me tell you what TRULLY distrubs me ... it's not caring or not caring, it's not succeeding or not succeeding, it's not making others happy or miserable, etc...

 

It's realizing that true happiness is a "state of mind". I recently came accross some research results that show pretty much all human emotions can be chemically controlled. Scientists are able to create almost ANY emotion or "state of mind" by using a combination of drugs!!! You may have already seen/heard of all these anti-depressants, depressants, etc etc drugs that doctors seem to be prescribing like M&Ms now. In any case, I really found this disturbing ... just imagine, 2 almost identical people, with almost identical levels of knowledge, with identical lives, with identical opportunities, personalities, and so forth. One could be extremely happy and enjoying life, the other could be extremely depressed and sad, all because of some chemical things that are happening in their brains.

 

So basically, the question delimma I am facing is this: Why worry about things, why work hard, why suffer, when at the end, I can still be very happy and content, by taking a couple of pills

 

Disclaimer: I am not advocating taking drugs! Actually, I don't even like drinking alcohol much. Also as I said before, these are just questions going through my mind and don't necessarily mean anything but just that. Questions which I think EVERYONE has ... except some simply do not have the luxury of thinking about them, considering the amount of commitments they have in life (work, bills, family, kids, ...).

[Sip]

So who or what is this Sartres? I really got curious By the way, assuming Azat's detective work is correct, congrats

[Rubo]

Sip jan, nice topic if I can call it as such. I studied Zen Buddhism for some time and I do concur with you that happiness is a state of mind. In Zen, the way can never be rationally understood but experienced through meditation. I meditated for some time in Zen garden right there downtown LA. In painting, music and sports this feeling is often experienced but never retained for prolonged period of time however daily meditation do help. About life’s meaning? I believe everyone has an obligation to himself or herself to find out their capacity for answers. I think you have some soul searching to do. Just an observation, empty stomach does not want concepts but food. It is always for most part that people who are in spiritual crises are seldom really in financial mess. I was unemployed for six mouths and practically lived on credit cards supporting my family and I did not entertained lofty thoughts but searched ways to get a job, to feed my family. Be honest if your toys and comforts were removed I doubt if you will be concerned with questions of existence but rather your instinct to survive will overpower all other impulses. Anyway as Artist I ask these questions on daily bases and I do feel that with the overwhelming body of religious and spiritual literature out there only testifies that there really is something out there but that God or whatever can not be understood on simple rational level, same as Zen. It requires other approaches…

[Sip]

Oh yes! MOst definitely VERY true. That's why I said earlier that I don't think too many people have the luxury to think about crap like this, when they have to worry about kids, family, bills, and basically just trying to make ends meet.

 

I am just trying to make them a bit happier by telling them, happiness is trully a state of mind. I don't know too many rich people that are trully happy. They have less immediate worries (like feeding that damn stomach), but then end up having to face these crushing realities about what true happiness is (and what they really want to do).

 

To be totally honest, I have seen true happiness in the eyes of those, that did not have much to lose in life!

 

But I am definitely very thankful for all my toys (although I did work hard for them, but not as hard as some peole that may not even have any toys) ... but that's life.

[vava]

Sip Jan,

 

As everyone here seems to agree, I don't think that material wealth has anything to do with true happiness. However I do believe that generally, people perceive a 'minimum' level of self-sustenance. It goes without saying that the 'minimum' can vary significantly from individual to individual.

 

Of course, for many, not attaining that level of sustenance long term can cause immense anguish and depression. For an Armenian, this usually compounded by the pressure of 'old world' pride. (I am sure that you know what I mean. )

 

Pardon the punn, but wealth is immaterial. What's important is that we learn to be thankful for what we got: our health, our wisdom (hopefully), our love, and our laughter.

 

(keep in mind that this is coming from someone who's still paying his student loans!)

[hasmiek]

heya Sip!

 

This summer I quit my job at Philips, it did't feel right anymore to work on more and more useless products...and it bothered me that i was spending my life in an environment which sucked every bit of energy ou of me. (so thankfull that I didn't buy a house yet or have children, quitting a job must be much more difficult then)

 

well do you remember I signed up for a sustainable design phd program- that didn't work out, there was a problem at the university with the finances. So there is was, no job, no PHD...so i went travelling to spain and morocco for a while, which was fantasic, eventhough I had (have) no security , I feel so much more ALIVE!

 

anyways, sometimes if yoy step away from your possesions and yoyr daily life it can be so relieving and eye-opening, it can make you remember how pretty life can be.

 

...did this make sense to this subject?

 

[ October 18, 2002, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: hasmiek ]

[sen_Vahan]

"I always suspected that Sartres was Armenian...Now, I am sure."

 

Nop, he was not Along with other french early existencialists he missed one important thing!They were talking about the life making no sense, that everything is useless,pointless,everything is absurd,etc(I am simplifying) But one cannot talk about the absurd and the absense of sense if they don't really exist. Contradiction or these guys knew what the sense is at the same time talking about the absense of that. This logical contradiction is characteristic to them.

 

But what Sip is saying in my opinion is that "why to try if the end is obviously the same".And the end is the same for everybody. What makes us to try this and that? This is how I understand his thought.

 

I will get back later, now need to go

 

Vahan

[THOTH]

Rubo, hasmiek - very good/appropriate comments.

 

And Boghos - funny

 

"There are two kinds of existentialists; first, those who are Christian...and on the other hand the atheistic existentialists, among whom...I class myself. What they have in common is that they think that existence precedes essence, or, if you prefer, that subjectivity must be the turning point."

 

John Paul Sartre

 

...and always remember - its a conscious choice to live your life "Authentically"...

 

For more info (very briefly):

http://www.connect.net/ron/sartre.html

 

Or somewhat humourous:

http://icemcfd.com/wayne/sartre-cookbook.html

[THOTH]

And of course we do have one of our own (fillostofers)...Gurdjieff

 

And here is one by him for Sip:

 

THERE DO EXIST ENQUIRING MINDS, which long for the truth of the heart, seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into themselves. If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what his place is in the world around him. For without this knowledge, he will have no focal point in his search. Socrates’ words, “Know thyself” remain for all those who seek true knowledge and being.

 

http://www.gurdjieff.org/

 

[ October 18, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[THOTH]

Gurdjieff’s Aphorisms

inscribed in a special script above the

walls of the Study House at the Prieuré

 

1)Like what “it” does not like.

 

2)The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do.

 

3)The worse the conditions of life the more productive the work, always provided you remember the work.

 

4)Remember yourself always and everywhere.

 

5)Remember you come here having already understood the necessity of struggling with yourself—only with yourself. Therefore thank everyone who gives you the opportunity.

 

6)Here we can only direct and create conditions, but not help.

 

7)Know that this house can be useful only to those who have recognized their nothingness and who believe in the possibility of changing.

 

8)If you already know it is bad and do it, you commit a sin difficult to redress.

 

9)The chief means of happiness in this life is the ability to consider externally always, internally never.

 

10)Do not love art with your feelings.

 

11)A true sign of a good man is if he loves his father and mother.

 

12)Judge others by yourself and you will rarely be mistaken.

 

13)Only help him who is not an idler.

 

14)Respect every religion.

 

15)I love him who loves work.

 

16)We can only strive to be able to be Christians.

 

17)Don't judge a man by the tales of others.

 

18)Consider what people think of you—not what they say.

 

19)Take the understanding of the East and the knowledge of the West—and then seek.

 

20)Only he who can take care of what belongs to others may have his own.

 

21)Only conscious suffering has any sense.

 

22)It is better to be temporarily an egoist than never to be just.

 

23)Practice love first on animals, they are more sensitive.

 

24)By teaching others you will learn yourself.

 

25)Remember that here work is not for work’s sake but is only a means.

 

26)Only he can be just who is able to put himself in the position of others.

 

27)If you have not by nature a critical mind your staying here is useless.

 

28)He who has freed himself of the disease of “tomorrow” has a chance to attain what he came here for.

 

29)Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo.

 

30)Rest comes not from the quantity but from the quality of sleep.

 

31)Sleep little without regret.

 

32)The energy spent on active inner work is then and there transformed into a fresh supply, but that spent on passive work is lost for ever.

 

33)One of the best means for arousing the wish to work on yourself is to realize that you may die at any moment. But first you must learn how to keep it in mind.

 

34)Conscious love evokes the same in response. Emotional love evokes the opposite. Physical love depends on type and polarity.

 

35)Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness.

 

36)Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.

 

37)Man is given a definite number of experiences—economizing them, he prolongs his life.

 

38)Here there are neither Russians nor English, Jews nor Christians, but only those who pursue one aim—to be able to be.

 

Copyright © 1924 G. I. Gurdjieff

[Rubo]

Thoth jan, I made no secret that I am a big fan of Gurdjief. I wander if you read Ouspensky's book, "In Search of the Miraculous" or any other books on Gurdjief.

[Boghos]

Thanks for the wishes.

[Loreley]

Sip: Hi. You asked: what is really your motivation? What keeps you going? Why do stuff? Why care about stuff? Why torture ourselves to somehow make things "better" when in the end, it does NOT matter at all in the Universe!

 

Working to make things better matters because if you think about the past (in terms of slavery, Latinos/as not being able to enter a lot of public places, women not being able to vote/work, the absence of laws in regards to child abuse, rape, domestic violence,etc, segregation), all those movements of resistance made a difference in the Universe, and currently, in our lives. Yes, there still a huge socioeconomic disparity based on race and gender, but things have improved. My motivation cames from a place of gratefulness, I am so grateful for everything that I have (family,love,good childhood, a place to live, school,work,etc.) and I want to enjoy life.

[shiner]

I can't help but ask ... what is really your motivation? What keeps you going? Why do stuff? Why care about stuff? Why torture ourselves to somehow make things "better" when in the end, it does NOT matter at all in the Universe!

 

(or do you disagree with my last statement ...)

Instinct. When you wake up in the morning you don't think of the very long run. You think in terms of that day, week, month, maybe a couple of years. When you do, you get even more stressed.And when you see everyone around you hustling and bustling you cant help it but desire to do something, stand out, make your own mark on the world so to speak. Otherwise you feel worthless and depressed.

 

I truly believe that society and environment has an affect on you. And the country you live in is the epitomy of a society which constantly puts pressure on you. Nothing is ever enough. There is always more. You achieve something only to find out that there are many more things left above. Should you choose to stop you feel bad, empty, looked down upon, somewhat alone in your philosophy, because the whole world around you is hustling and bustling. It's not like you have the option of sitting on your front porch and playing backgammon all day (unless you live in Glendale ). There's no one to play with because everybody is caught up in the chaos of their own life. And the only escape you have is more and more work.

 

Other societies might work differently, but in general it is human nature to always want something. When you finally get that thing your first instinct is to want something else. It never ends.

[gamavor]

http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/misc/G.html

 

http://www.gurdjieff.org/

 

http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/misc/School.html

 

 

Gurdjieff is cool!

 

 

And don't miss Gurdieff's movements and music:

 

http://www.gurdjieffmovements.net/

 

 

Edited September 26, 2003 by gamavor

[Sasun]

Hmm... this is a good thread, I didn't know about it. Gurjieff is certainly a genius but often I find him hard to understand. I haven't read much of him for this reason, but I am going to check the links and give another try.