marco Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 (edited) Virgins? This post has been edited by marco on Aug 3 2003, 11:40 PM ---There was a serious question here at some point and for some reason Marco has removed it. --Sip Edited February 23, 2004 by Seapahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 It's amazing to me how much importance traditional people seem to put on virginity. If they are only worried about the physical aspects of being a virgin, then I say they are totally out of it since there is SOOOO much that one (a female) can do yet still "technically" be a virgin A simple search on google, will provide millions of pages regarding this (I have heard ). If they are talking about the purity of the sole, mind, etc, then virginity becomes a "relative" issue. There can obviously not be any absolute statements you can make regaring a persons thoughts (past relationships, feelings, etc). So to answer your question, I don't think the "technical" (i.e. physical) aspect of virginity is important AT ALL. The second part, is more difficult to answer ... I would say that those experiences "made" the person that you like and want to marry. Therefore, they are important (so I don't have a "problem" with them either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 I for one like my shoes better after they are broken in. Same for my women. All this talk about virginity. Old World backward thinking. Sounds like the story of suicide bombers who are promised 72 virgins in the afterlife for participating in killing Jews and Westerners. Are we tied to the West or are we really a bunch of quasi-Moslems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Hagarag, I think you are awesome! Only you could manage to compare women to shoes, bring up the ongoing jew vs muslim problems and the suicide bombings, put down muslims, and stick in a pro-west message all condensed into about 3 lines!!! (LMAO about the shoe analogy though) ---EDIT for wh00t: Wooo Hoooo !!!! I din't even notice ... I think I am going to be editing old messages for a while ... I want to stay at this nice round number ... although 1001, 1010, 1011, and 1100 are also going to be nice ones to get to Funny you should say Dr! I got a package in the mail today with that as my title. I was like wait a minute ... did something happen and someone forgot to tell me about it? [ October 01, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Post 1000, congrats Dr. Seaphan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 I have no problem if a woman is a virgin or not. As long as they are a good person. In fact I would think that it is better if the woman(and the man) has some experience in this arena. As far as what the extended family thinks, I would say who cares what they think. it is not like one is marring the extended family as long as he and she are happy they it is all good. However if she has been with a black guy I sure hope that she has forgotten about his long list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Sip - agree 100% about hagarag's post - LMAO!!!! Hagarag - great post!!!! (& so very true) Azat - agree with you as well. Funny though - your obsession with this/your list issue...LOL - been in that situation...and its really a non-issue...believe me...and for those few where it might be - well good for them - they are happy I guess - but again from my experience they never did go back (to black)...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:---EDIT for wh00t: Wooo Hoooo !!!! I din't even notice ... I think I am going to be editing old messages for a while ... I want to stay at this nice round number ... although 1001, 1010, 1011, and 1100 are also going to be nice ones to get to How careless of me. Congrats on reaching post (2^3)1=8base10! [ October 02, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: wh00t ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Sip, What else would you expect from a "Jew-lover."I have been in love with many Jewish women, some only from afar as they were celebrities. My celebrity favorite in my middle age is California U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer, who happens to be an strong advocate for Armenian causes. The only Arab celebrity I was ever enamored with was Marlo Thomas, but I was probably more enamored with her than any of the Jewish celebrities. I also had an Arab girlfriend in high school but graduated to Jews in college and while getting my advanced degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Winston, Glad to see that there are others here who are not Armenian Talibans. We must work very hard to seperate the Armenian community form it's Islamic yoke. Centuries under Islam have Islamized too many Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Winston, Glad to see that there are others here who are not Armenian Talibans. We must work very hard to seperate the Armenian community form it's Islamic yoke. Centuries under Islam have Islamized too many Armenians.agreed - aparently this is true - otherwise I can't quite figure where it comes from. In my youth I worked at a wonderful Greek restaurant for many years. One of the owners - "chef John" was married to a very intelligent and modern thinking (beautiful, older [as he was])Greek lady who often helped out in the kitchen. She would always advise us young boys to not only sleep with the girls first (because that was where your list was going to make itself at home for perhaps the rest of your life - and you better make sure its happy there - etc) - but she encouraged living together as well - to know if you were compatable - etc, etc. I can't get over the true wisdom (and progresiveness) of this (older/from the "old country") lady (this is but one example of course). And i'm certainly glad I followed her advice...and I would highly recommended it to others as well. But your confusing me now hagarag - I thought you said you liked guys? And whats with Jewish gals anyway - to you? (I can see positive & negative from my experience - but certainly they don't seem to have some of the inhibitedness that some [mostly Protestant] gals seem to often have). Its funny - I know a Jewsish guy married to an Armenian gal - and he has just the opposite view. He said he was never interested in Jewish women - for a variety of reasons. But he has found Armenian women to be the best! (their inner strength being one quality mentioned...as well as beauty...etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Winston, I know a few Armenian women married to Jewish men and Armenian men married to Jewish women. Most of these have been very successful. The intense love affair between Cher and David Geffen is well known. Cher now regrets having broken off the affair, despite the fact that she found David as overbearing as her ex-husband Sonny Bono. As for your other comment, here were two people deeply in love sexually and otherwise, neither of whom has been exclusively heterosexual. I have never claimed that I am not VERY attracted to beautiful women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Winston, I know a few Armenian women married to Jewish men and Armenian men married to Jewish women. Most of these have been very successful. The intense love affair between Cher and David Geffen is well known. Cher now regrets having broken off the affair, despite the fact that she found David as overbearing as her ex-husband Sonny Bono. As for your other comment, here were two people deeply in love sexually and otherwise, neither of whom has been exclusively heterosexual. I have never claimed that I am not VERY attracted to beautiful women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Marco, I will try to give you more generalized answer which will be mainly informative.If the question is adressed to diasporan armenians then I think they will give a better answer than me. The tradition of virginity in marriage is still practiced in Armenia and there is the so-called tradition of "karmir khndzor"(red apple). If one grows in a culture where it is an important issue then he/she will most likely follow that tradition.Is that really important for modern young men in Armenia? Yes, it is.Knowing it women try to stay virgin before their marriage.But there is also the other side of the problem - do women want to be virgin before they get married? Generally speaking yes (my opinion) but let women speak about it. This tradition is also alive in China(as an example) and talking to chinese girls about that I understand that it IS important for them."Every girl wants to be a virgin before..." a chinese women told me once... "the status of virginity"(sounds funny) is important in the extended family among those who practice that tradition. I don't know how to answer the 2nd question. If you ask why it is so important then we need to think why that tradition is important(or was important)... Stay more in the topic and you will get to know a lot about jews,jew-lovers and vice versa and about many other things... Thanks,Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 It's very important and essential. I don't think I could trust any woman who had prior relationships to raise my children, especially if I were to have a daughter. How many girls that are virgins before marriage go onto (or have ever done) things like drugs? None. Any Armenian girl who has had sexual relations with an odar prior to marriage is more or less worthless and should more or less be ostracized from the community. As for the family I know my (non-Armenian by birth) mother would never allow me to marry a girl who has been 'de-flowered'. Sorry if my "old-world" thinking doesn't go over well, but my Hayasdantsi friends all agree with me on every issue that I've ever argued on this board in the social sphere. And Hagarag, it's not Islamic thinking- it's Christian thinking. But then again your interpretation and manipulation of the Bible is so deformed and disgusting that anything you say is more or less nonsense anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:How many girls that are virgins before marriage go onto (or have ever done) things like drugs? None. Huh? I knew exactly what was going to be your first and second sentence before even opening this thread but I have to say this third one really surprised the heck out of me!!! Why? Why do you have to say such things to immediately undermine your position when you have such a solid start on your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Sip jan, I gotta goatee now, I look like your twin now pity me. Anyways, it has generally been my experience that girls who aren't looking for trouble dont get into any trouble. See where I'm going? Bottom line for me- a girl who is not a virgin does not represent what is in line with my values and there would be immediate conflict there. I will not lay a finger on the woman I marry until I marry her, and even then not until she permits it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 What about men virginity before marriage ? Is that not descrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Any Armenian girl who has had sexual relations with an odar prior to marriage is more or less worthless and should more or less be ostracized from the community.Well, that's me more or less ostracized. Bye guys! NairiNo not at all. I don't have to agree with everything someone (such as yourself) might say - but this doesn't mean that I don't welcome their contributions. You have often provided insightful commentary from a unique perspective. I think your input on this subject (in particualr - since so far its been entirely males I think) would be worthwhile. And BTW (good for you) - not being a virgin! Live your life nad enjoy (within reson of course) - and don't be a slave to outmoded ideas that discriminate and treat you differently/less human - this to me is disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Domino:What about men virginity before marriage ? Is that not descrimination. Yes - how can anyone argue that it isn't? Seperate and unequal standards. Who makes the rules? Why? And Tigrannes - I'm not sure to hope that when you get married you get a frigid one or such - would serve you right and maybe you would learn something - or wish you all the best (I mean its tough to wish the worst on the naive...). While it is entirely your schoice as to what you do and what you expect - and thats fine. I find your portrayal of (non-virginal-unmarried) women to be distasteful and totally lacking in respect/decency. Is it not likewise their choice? And - even if not for you - you should respect that. Additionally, how would you feel if others (women) etc - derided you becaus eyou had chosen to have sexual relations (or not). To me any judgement of another person of this nature is immature and shortsighted. How can one presume that they necessairly know the best way(s) for someone else to live their lives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Oh and Tigrannes - you should know that in history there are a mirad of examples of men marrrying women whom they thought were virgins and it turned out not to be. So what will you do if this situation were to happen to you? Would you divorce her (kill her? don't know....would the dishoner be so great....) on the spot (even if you loved her - and I presume that you would love her if your marrying her - though perhaps not - maybe her family has money or something - who knows...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Any Armenian girl who has had sexual relations with an odar prior to marriage is more or less worthless and should more or less be ostracized from the community.Well, that's me more or less ostracized. Bye guys! Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Perhaps I would forgive her if she were to lie (I would eventually forgive her as my religion commands me to), and I would certainly not kill her. Does this mean you'd potentially marry me?are you proposing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Perhaps I would forgive her if she were to lie (I would eventually forgive her as my religion commands me to), and I would certainly not kill her. Does this mean you'd potentially marry me?To be honest, no, because I couldn't entrust you to raise a daughter should I have one. Christianity was also once considered a cult, that doesn't change the fact that it's remain unchanged for us for 1701 years. You see where I'm going? Just because things may have once been new and now they're old doesn't mean that things should change now. If we're going to start acting like Westerners we might as well stop being Armenian. I've already had to suffer because of a not so serious taboo in Armenian culture, but because of my respect and love for the culture I dare not push the envelope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Why not answering this question as well. - Should Armenian women marry non-virgin man ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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