Marrying a Virgin?

[MJ]

I would like to second the first opinion expressed by the Cat – the expressed attitudes on the subject of sexual freedoms are an outcome of the centuries of Islamic rule over Armenians. Evidently, such views are characteristic to the entire Asia Minor and Caucasus.

 

Definitely, Armenian historians of the pre-Islamic domination period convey a different picture on the lifestyle of Armenians. I don’t mean to say that the pagan ethics has ruled in medieval Armenia, since from some point on the Christian tradition has taken over, but in the same spirit, most likely the attitude has been something like, “Yeah, virginity might bee good but, then, who am I to throw the stone?”

 

On the subject of the “little Stalins,” … the Cat drifts again. The current Armenian generation has neither seen Stalin nor has been oppressed. Soviet Armenia has been the freest Republic in the Soviet Union enjoying widest freedoms, and the culture of Stalinism has not found home even in the worst 5% of the population. Additionally, the people of Armenia are one of the most open-minded segments amongst the people of Armenian ethnicity worldwide.

 

Where does the Cat pull out such opinions from remains a mystery to me…

[MJ]

I would like to inform you that the words "namus" and "djigar" are brought to the Armenian society by the invadors.

 

As far as the words "badiv" and "baroyakanutiun" are concerned, they have perfect analogs in Western Society - not just in its lexicon. These are "honor" - an inseparable attribute of Western Knights, for example, and "morality" - held on much higher levels in Western Societies than in the Middle Eastern or Caucasian cultures, for example.

[Sip]

emmmmmmmmmm ... djigar! I love djigar ... especially with onions and lemon juice.

 

The disturbing thing with us barska-hyes is the phrase "djigared utem" (translated to "I want to eat your liver"). That actually used to scare the heck out of me as a kid as it was always followed by painful pinchings of my cheeks and sloppy kisses by some old ladies

 

[ October 03, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[THOTH]

Marco - its too bad for you that your completly irrational and unfounded predjudices have let what was probably a perfectly good one - and likely some fine times and who knows what more -completely ellude you. But I am feeling good for her that she escaped you...

[Accelerated]

The words in themselves are insignificant, it is the meaning behind them that should be of concern...

 

Indeed if one wanted to translate "pativ" to a single word it would be "honour". But I would say that they werent exactly the same. And anyway the concept of 'honour' is currently non-existant in the Western world.

[sen_Vahan]

"I would like to second the first opinion expressed by the Cat – the expressed attitudes on the subject of sexual freedoms are an outcome of the centuries of Islamic rule over Armenians. Evidently, such views are characteristic to the entire Asia Minor and Caucasus."

 

This is true but partly.The same tradition was practiced among folks in mazdeist persia which did have a great influence on Armenia.It was also important in greek culture which also had some influence on Armenia.

Moreover,it is not just a muslim tradition it was practiced long before the birth of Mohammed,for example, in China (where it is still important),Korea,etc.By the way,it is even still alive in modern korean westernized society.

Another example is lesgins in caucasus that had the same tradition long before the adoption of Islam.

 

Thanks,

Vahan

[MosJan]

NOT to SELF - Stay a Way from this topik /exit / exit / Exit

[Sip]

This just struck me as completely ODD, kinda like the lightbulb that goes on in cartoons (I know it's been said before many many times ... but I was very slow in catching on in this case).

 

WHY IS THERE a double standard? Why virgin females and not males? What makes males so special? All I heard was emotional bagage this, and non fairthfulness that, and doing drugs as a result, etc etc etc ...

 

Not a single one of those people that claim to have the virginity requirement for femals seem to have the same requirement for males. What the hell is up with that?

[khodja]

Sip,

 

It has to do with the idea of women as the property of men.

[Sip]

You know Hagarag, that makes perfect sense to me now. Unfortunately, for some reason, I was fooled for a while with this nice story about raising childeren, wonderful trusting relationships, and purity of character ... but that's exactly what it comes down to ... like buying a new car as opposed to a used one (or a shoe ) It's perfectly clear to me now!!! I am just mad that it took me so long to see it

 

I just wish these guys would come out and say it the way it is, as opposed to sugar coating it for fools like me!

 

[ October 04, 2002, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[MJ]

 

Hmmm... That's interesting... Are you sure you meant to say the entire Western world or just the USA?

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

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Originaly posted by Harut:

just an idea came up while reading C++...

 

"society is abstract in its kind. it does not contain right or wrong values, but values that we put in, in accordance to the time, place, situation, and majorly out of personaly instinct."

 

---Harut

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What kind of C++ book were you reading ? Or may I ask, what have you smoked, in order that a C++ book give you such idea's

 

[ October 04, 2002, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[bellthecat]

And in this context perhaps some of those "pagan attitudes" should be explored. Such as the priestesses in the temple of Anahit near Erzincan who were said to have sexual intercourse with visitors to the temple - with the women who participated seeing it as a great honour and the visitors considering that in a way they were having contact with the goddess herself.

 

Come on MJ! The Stalinist terror was just as bad in Armenia as it was elsewhere in the Soviet Union - perhaps more so because you had the prospect of anyone who wanted to openly express their Armenian identity running the risk of that identity being represented as un-Soviet. And most of that repression was inflicted by Armenians on ther fellow Armenians. Do you really think all the deep-seated psychological and cultural damage caused by that was miraculously cured the day Stalin died? Someone who grew up in Armenia the 30s, 40s and 50s will be only be in their 60s and 70s now - their children perhaps in their 30s and 40s. They ARE ALL still the current Armenian generation.

[bellthecat]

What a lucky escape that poor woman had. You identified a moment of affection which any really decent person would treasure, but which you had to polute with your own neurotic hangups.

[Boghos]

Here I have to agree with Steve. BTW, there is a nice documentary about Stalin and Stalinism in Armenia. You can get a copy at AGBU if you want.

[MJ]

I don’t think one has to do extensive research to figure out the attitude of early Armenians towards sexual relationship. Last time I was I have visited the ruins of Dvin (it was early 80s), I saw remains of a statue of phallus, as well as its antipode, there. This should be indicative of an existing cult, I would think.

 

But we don’t have to go that far into our history. The landscape of Armenia of 11th century – I would claim this has been one of the most remarkable periods in the Armenian history, as portrayed by Aristakes Lastivertsi and as reflected in the poetry of Nahabed Quchak, suggests quite lax attitudes towards human sexuality. This is the pre-Islamic domination period.

 

Stalinist terror is taken way out if proportions by pretty much everyone I come across in the Western Society. I don’t mean to claim that it has not been a horrific regime, but I mean to claim that its impact on the Armenian culture has been marginal. Primarily, because effective the end of the WWII significant migration has taken to Armenia, and the new comer Armenians have not only been short of the baggage of Stalinism, but by injecting the whatever culture they have brought with them, they have diluted to a very significant degree the mentality of the Stalinian period. This is very idiosyncratic to Soviet Armenia, since it is the only republic which has experienced very significant influx of “western Armenians,” eventually constituting perhaps not less than 30% of its population. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is talking from his own projection and not out of knowledge – to put it softly.

 

No, few words about “virginity.” This is a prominent subject in this forum as long as I remember. The interesting observation is that while one would expect this category to be “guarded” by the older members of the forum, and one would expect the younger ones to be lax on it, the picture is quite the opposite. Additionally, the strongest opinions are expressed by people who have never been in Armenia or have left it at the age of 11 – I have at least three such members in mind.

 

The older members are silent or indifferent on the subject – perhaps because they realize that this is a very personal issue and no one is entitled to imposing his views on such personal matters on anyone. However, one would be tempted to expect that the normal situation would suggest the younger guys be more “aggressive,” and the older ones to be at most successful in suggesting them to at least use protection. But in our forum it is very different… What’s the problem? I think some very significant insecurity accompanied with a problem getting laid. I don’t mean to be offensive but “Something is rotten in Denmark.”

 

Time to get back to work.

[Boghos]

[ October 04, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Boghos]

Yes, this is an important factor, but most people came to Armenia right after WWII and Stalin died in 1953. So even though most did not undergo the worst of Stalin terror they felt the aftermath of it. Society doesn´t rid itself of absurdities so quickly.

 

Moreover post-war immigration was not exactly a pleasant event for the newly arrived. And their difficulty in integrating was a long lasting phenomenon.

[Harut]

just an idea came up while reading C++...

 

"society is abstract in its kind. it does not contain right or wrong values, but values that we put in, in accordance to the time, place, situation, and majorly out of personaly instinct."

 

---Harut

 

had you seen nerdy philosopher before.

[nairi]

What makes you think she won't be carrying the same baggage (of bitterness etc.) after being married to you for two years? And who says YOU are not carrying any baggage? As far as I'm concerned you're still very hurt over an Armenian girl who left you. How could any girl trust that you'll ever forget her?

[bellthecat]

Do you mean the video "Enemy of the people"? I've got a copy. I have heard it cost the agbu a quarter of million dollars to produce - can't think how they could have spent that amount of money on it!!

[MJ]

Boghos,

 

Let’s assume that all new arriver Armenians have come to Armenia in 1946 – this is the worst case scenario. Those who where already adults, they were shaped people. They could’ve not become “little Stalins” in eight years. Those who where children, they were outside the reach of Stalinism and were under the influence of their parents, who under the worst case scenario would tell them to “shot their mouths” and not to speak. Either way, other than people being aware of the dangers, I don’t see them becoming little “Stalins.” Moreover, given that the post-war immigrants could not integrate with the “locals,” it would have been extremely difficult for them to be culturally transformed, as you mention it above, which is the truth. Either way, while a “loyal” fragment of the Armenian society has existed in Armenia – out of fear or careerism, Stalinism has never had any profound impact in Armenia (cannot speak about the 30s).

 

I haven’t seen the documentary made by AGBU. The primary reason being that I consider the topic being a secondary importance in the Armenian landscape, as much as Armenians also, like others, have suffered from it.

[Boghos]

Yes, probably first class airfares, hotel and a little bit for film . But the interviews are sort of interesting, especially in light of the fact that there is so little material about it.

 

Steve, this question has been asked several times in a way or another, but why are you so interested in Armenia and Armenians ? This is genuine curiosity.

[Boghos]

I take your point. But Stalinism which permeated the whole Soviet society, arts, science, etc did not simply disappear after the XX Party Congress. One of its most important legacies is the one party state and the lack of functioning institutions independent of it. Stalin created the beast, it only got softer over the years. In that sense the whole society was influenced by Stalinism.

 

Now, if you are referring to the fact that in Armenia people never venerated Stalin such as you can find in as diverse places such as Tadzhikistan and small cities in Bulgaria, then, I have to agree.

 

In any case my sense is that Armenians, by nature, are not driven into any sort of personality cult. At least of a political nature.

[THOTH]

Sip & Hagarag - exactly. All this purity talk. women on a pedestal (can't work, drive, socialize with males, express themselves - etc etc) and such is just an excuse for males who lack self-confidence with women and/or who wish for a system where they get to be boss and "own" the women, essentially - as their property. Its sad really - most sad...

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sip:

You know Hagarag, that makes perfect sense to me now. Unfortunately, for some reason, I was fooled for a while with this nice story about raising childeren, wonderful trusting relationships, and purity of character ... but that's exactly what it comes down to ... like buying a new car as opposed to a used one (or a shoe ) It's perfectly clear to me now!!! I am just mad that it took me so long to see it <img border="0" alt="[angry]" title="" src="smilies/angry.gif" />

 

I just wish these guys would come out and say it the way it is, as opposed to sugar coating it for fools like me!

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