Marrying a Virgin?

[Sip]

Alright ... time to put some money where your mouth is. I call a challenge. Hagarag in his bathtub, you and your choice of ANY wrx. We have to see once and for all who's going to win. I for one, can't wait to find out

[TigrannesIII]

i'm waaay too young to be involved with any divorced women, but yeah, that would be acceptable.

[Accelerated]

Deal! Just to make sure that I win though, I might have to sabotage hagarags bathtub....unfortunatelly I just cant figure out how the propultion system works....aaaahh maybe he's got Teacher pushing the tub while he steers it....yeah that sounds logical. Well if this is the case then Teacher is up for a real physical bashing , preferably with something blunt and heavy.

[TigrannesIII]

I dunno, if the race is downhill hagarag might have the advantage. if he leans forward, his big head might lead him to victory. if it's grand prix style race, i dont think the bathtub will be able to handle the turns, especially if teacher is pushing.

[Accelerated]

LOL...good point, didnt think of that

 

Dont know about this one, teachers a little unpredictable, I mean sometimes he comes up with the goods when you least expect it, remmember the story with the county chess competition, I mean that had me on the edge of my seat, chearing (for him) from start to finish (of the story), he is a true champion.

[Sip]

Ok ... just take a look at THIS (the first part at least). Don't tell me that doesn't apply to Armenians! I don't believe it.

 

http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/bigs.gif

[Harut]

ok, stop. it's not nice anymore.

 

============

Tigrannes, even though i can fully understand your viewpoint (i lived first 16 years of my life among people with that viewpoint), you are expressing it in very crapy way.

and that is what makes people upset.

 

also, before trying to explain others what lies beneeth that kind of mentality, try to really understand that yourself. as far as i see you don't really know it yourself.

 

take care.

[TigrannesIII]

To even insinuate that I would marry for money or power is disgusting and degrading. I would slap you across the face if you ever said such a thing to my face. A girl who sleeps around most likely does it because she has no self-respect.

 

I find your views on non-virgin unmarried girls to be equally disturbing and offensive. It's obvious you're not Armenian. I'm getting sick of a non-Armenian advocating to Armenians to be more Armenian by not being Armenian. Our 'outmoded' ideas have serviced us for a very long time. Change is not good. It is insulting to our ancestors to deviate.

 

Perhaps I would forgive her if she were to lie (I would eventually forgive her as my religion commands me to), and I would certainly not kill her. However, divorce would be likely. If she lied to me about something fundamental such as that that is not the best way to build a marriage, now is it?

[nairi]

Tigrannes jan, our "outmoded" ideas were also new once.

[nairi]

Does this mean you'd potentially marry me?

[nairi]

Tigrannes, you still haven't replied to my question on the last page. I'll try again with this one:

 

How do you expect men and women to marry if the brothers are constantly keeping the men away from their sisters?

 

As for my brother's priorities: they lie in my happiness, not in my virginity.

[Accelerated]

Sip, what have you been up to in your spare time latelly?

 

Tigran, I will have to agree with Harut on this one. Admitadly I also wouldnt be able to make some of these forumers (who have never been to Armenia) understand, thats why I dont bother trying .

[nairi]

Some of us HAVE been to Armenia, and they have seen the changes in the attitudes of young girls, i.e. they do not want to be dominated by the males in their family anymore. Why should my brother and father decide for me who I should marry and who I shouldn't? And why should they decide for me what's good for me and what isn't? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!! WOMEN, TOO, HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HUMAN BEINGS!!!!

 

As for domestic abuse, (family honor) homicide, rape and child molestation: they are more prevalent in the East than they are in the West!! Please don't be so ignorant!

[Harut]

there are (at least there used to be until very recently) two essential, interrelated concepts in Armenian society: "namus" and "baroyakanutyun". (i can't even find equavalent words for them in English)

 

in order to understand (maybe THEN (un)justify) the issue of virginity (and whole lot more), one needs to understand those concepts first. thier importance, thier role, thier origins, etc... in Armenian society.

 

it's not an easy task to do so. it's impossible to read about it in the book and completely cmprehend it.

 

one has to live with it, prefferablely on both side of those concepts, in order to understand them. and only then you can follow or not to those concepts.

[bellthecat]

Hagarag proposed earlier that a lot of Tigrannes attitudes are derived from Armenians living under Islamic rule for so long. This is probably partly true - and I suspect that conecting those attitudes to Islam certainly will (in an Armenian context) make it much easier to put an end to those attitudes.

 

However it is not the whole truth, it is probably more to do with the oppressed themselves becoming oppressors. For example; soviet Armenians obliged to live under Stalin's tyrany becoming little Stalins' in their own home.

[Harut]

common Tigrannes....

 

what about those in Armenia? do we load them into trains and send to Turkey?

=======

 

[oh, i've got better idea. how about we give them sexual minority status. ]

 

[ October 03, 2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Harut ]

[Harut]

nairi, male dominance has only partial impact on this issue. there are many girls/women who live alone (even not alone but), free of any family repression.

but still many or them (agian, at least until very recently) prefer not to have sex before marriage.

 

it goes back to the isse of "baroyakanutyun".

[Harut]

and to make just one more note...

 

(sorry, but one more time, at least untill very recently)

 

girls/women don't express thier sexual desires, (don't try to practice them) and get repressed by male or whoever.

most of they just don't to begin with, because they don't see that kind of behavior among older people.

they don't see their parents kissing in public.

they don't see their parents expressing their love in public.

they don't see other older people talking about sex.

they don't see their friends talking about sex.

they don't see sex shop around the corner.

etc.

etc.

etc.

things that are common in Western Societies.

 

now, this is right or not is another issue.

[Harut]

and just before i leave the topic today, i want to make another note...

 

what Tigrannes and i (sort of) said is generlization.

 

there is a portion of people (male and female. in Armenia and outside) that find nothing wrong (and practice themselves) in sex before marries (at having sex in general).

========

 

[yah, and before i forget to mention, there are Armenia sluts and prostitutes too. ]

 

[ October 03, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Harut ]

[Boghos]

I knew it ! I knew it ! Hagarag´s father is James Bond...

 

[ October 03, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[khodja]

Boghos,

 

My father was 100% Armenian. Was James Bond's real name BONDARIAN?

[THOTH]

Let me say that I am glad to see some other viewpoints here besides Tigrannes (his schtick is getting a bit old really). Let me also say that I understand why there is a special quality to be exclusivly devoted to one other - sexually or otherwise - etc etc (and the virgin thing is part of this...but don't then both partners have to be vigins - no double standard?) - and this is a good thing (for the most part - still eventual compatability issues & such)- but it is not either the do all and end all - nor does/will it work for everyone. We have to be open to the fact that sexual roles and definitions of families and all sorts of things are changing - just as we are changing as humans. Life is not static - particualrly with the rate of societal change that is responsive to the (increasing) rate of environmental change (technology etc for better or worse). It is unrealistic to expect things to remain as they always have been - and in fact the "old model" which may have worked OK (but was never perfect) - just can't cut it any more (for everyone) - and ultimatly we just have to accept this...or basically go the way of the dinosaur. You or I may not like it (and belive it or not I view myself as conservative/resistant to change in a very many ways...so often this sort of thing saddens me - though less with this case [sexual relations/role of females...etc] then other things) - but what can be done?)

 

And Seaphen - interestng link (actually I am familiar with this colomn - though only fairly recently). #1: Yeah - never talk about it again to the 14 year old girl - is this ideal parenting? - LOL. If I were her mother - since she obviously has some interest in the item and its use - etc. I think I would provide some instruction and explanation and perhaps even give it to her as a present. Really - I'm entirely serious and I believe that it would be the right thing to do (or a right thing to do). Its not like she will suddenly forget about it and ignore her emerging physical needs/desires. But a parent who can communicate with their child can make sure they understand these changes etc and can properly deal with them. Besides it (masturbation)is great fun and does no one any harm (and she is going to do it anyway - right?). (of course there are some other issues involved that must also be dealt with - boys - their proper management & such)...

 

I think the second one was answered most properly. LOL. Hey - don't ask/expect your g/f etc to do things you are not willing to do (to her) yourself (in the ballpark).

 

#3 - typical unfortunatly. Some times I wonder if people really know what sex is. I ceertainly know what its not - and what its not is attitudes like the guy in #3 has....boring

 

#4 - feel sorry for all concerned. Frankly I can't relate to the guy personally - sounds like he has a good thing going - and maybe he could make some arrangement with his wife (to date [guys] outside of marraige?)- who knows? (lots of issues of course) But its too bad really that he is so geneder concious - eh? What ever happened to love the one your with? - LOL.. (hows that for a conservative answer? I'm looking for Damien's counter - as I think I know what he would say to this...BTW where are he & outdoor gal...they both seem to have disapeared...

[marco]

Intersting to say the least!

 

I have my own opinion on this matter and to an extent it sides with Tigrannes (to an extent), however with a more personal explanation.

 

Eventhough I am not Armenian, and have been born and raised in the US I have maintained a certain amount of my culture from Iran. To a certain extent there are many similarities between our cultures, including the concept of virginity. The thing is, that eventhough virginity or lack thereof may seem as a trivial and I admit an unrecognized component of a women, there are certain inherent aspects that makes one think a little deeper into the issue. I myself am a very open minded guy, and my own opinion stemmed from an experience some time ago. Anyhow when it comes to marriage at least I would think that there is a lot more to the story, namely it is a marriage between two families as well as the guy and the girl. Also, I would think that marriage is surely built on a substantiated foundation such as religion, character, values etc, to ensure as close a match as possible to ensure (or hope) for longeivity especially in an era with 60% combined divorce and separation rate. So, where does virginity come into the picture? Well, in my opinion virginity can be looked at as kind of a 'guage' on a persons social experiences and hence character. Someone who is a virgin (by choice or circumstance), is more likely to not have either been presented with such options, and/or strong enough to resist sexual advances from others, and I think is more of a character quality in the latter case, and of course generally holds true in the opposite scenario as well. It may seem only natural that some men prefer a women who has not had any experience with the opposite sex either in the context of a sexual or emotional relationship for that matter and there are others who dont mind.

 

Now a personal truth, I am in my mid twenties and during my 'dating career' have met a lot of women of all types. My experience in short, was a short while back I was sitting with a beautiful Greek girlfriend of 2 years watching a movie on my couch on a typical Sunday afternoon. I had my hand on her bottom and she had hers on my thigh. There came a moment, unbenounced to me, that questions started running through my mind out of the blue. Such as I wonder how many other guys must have stroked her bottom as I had? I wonder how many guys has she shown the same affection to as she was showing to me? I wonder how many guys she has truly been intimate with, and so on and so forth. I knew she hadnt been a virgin, and these thoughts were completely sporadic and I am sure odd to say the least. Unfortunately, I got turned off this completely gorgeous girl, who was perfect in almost every way. I couldnt understand it or explain it, except for the fact that I didnt feel or look at her the same. I actually got disgusted, and because we were contemplating marriage, this was a thought that was running through my mind every time I had seen her after that moment. I know this may sound crazy but my friend didnt help the issue by stating 'Your children will pass through the same canal that other men found pleasure in". True, and definitely somewhat disturbing and a childish cooties type of statement. But it was deeper than that, in my opinion it boiled down to preference and character. Now I wasnt a virgin, completely understand but in this case she had no problem with me. It came to a point that I had to end the relationship with her, because I surely woulnt be able to live the rest of my life with that knowledge and thoughts of her having been with and sharing the same special moments with me with other guys. Maybe it was the middle eastern mentality that came out of me, but I surely know that this was a defining moment in this virginity question. Now, considering that I myself am not a virgin, I of all people probably dont deserve one. But nevertheless, for me it does make a difference.

 

Nowadays, when I do meet a girl, virginity is something I do consider. It is a completely personal decision and choice. Everyone has their own opinions. However, I dont think I would feel happy or comfortable knowing that my wife was the promiscuous of the bunch, or whispered sweet whispers to other men before me, it just doesnt seem special enough for me.

 

Tigrannes is right when he says that children learn from their mothers, and I dont think I would feel comfortable in my children continuing a non-virginity rampage that I myself in retrospect regret for myself.

 

Nevertheless, just my thoughts, I dont agree with killing anyone if they are not virgins as one had aluded to before. But it is a preference and had I the choice between a virgin and a non-virgin I would choose the non-virgin especially considering there is an increased likelihood that she is not carrying any baggage from some sorted lost love, ex-boyfriend, bitterness on life, relationships and the whole works. Just my two cents! Interesting opinions thus far!

[Sip]

Way to keep us on our toes Marco! I am almost certain you actually meant "virgin" where you said "non-virgin"

[Accelerated]

I can add a couple more concepts "pativ" and "djigyar". And you cant find the equavalent words in English because these concepts dont exist in Western societies.....and if we were to listen to our Teacher we ought to have given them up a long time ago.........