TigrannesIII

And as Turkey creeps closer and closer to EU ascension those things will disappear.

yuck.... Bernard Lewis......give me Edward Said please!

Right, and the fact that there exists no fear about being shut up signals a fundamental change. I find it extraordinary that every single one has a nationalist heart takeover..... believing that only dehumanizes the 'other'.

Wrong. When Turkish professors at Turkish universities are publicly declaring the Genocide a truth, the process is already further along than we had ever imagined. A younger generation of Turks, many of whom I have personally engaged, are interested in these questions- these are the beginnings, beginnings that should have been realized decades ago but, in large part due to our own meddling, are only occurring now.

Thoth, I am not saying forgive and forget. I prefer LTP's policy of pursuing Genocide recognition (at government-to-government levels) with everyone but Turkey. Once Turkey is engaged in neighborly relations with us the stereotypes will cease to stick. And if they do stick, it won't be by much. Once those stereotypes are gone Turks will be able to objectiviely question their history better; not just extreme, fringe liberals like Taner Akcam, but moderates and maybe even some leaning right. Genocide recognition by Turkey will be a slow process, and our efforts to compel them to make such a recognition have had the opposite effect. Forgive and forget? No. Realize a new focus centered on serving our people (as opposed to being self-serving), now, post-haste.

Sorry I missed the debate(s). I was busy getting educated at school I actually took the majority of my arguments from my letter of resignation from the AYF, one I am debating submitting or not; I will resign, I just don't know which letter to choose. It's been an interesting two and a half years, going from nearly joining the ARF outright to where I am now.

I'll probably be called a traitor. Thank God I have anonymity or some of the more radical Armenians might actually try to harm me physically. Of course, they would only do so because in their minds they are far more patriotic than I am- something I wholeheartedly doubt. I was born in the US, have lived my whole life here, and am part of an Armenian community where I find myself very quickly being pushed out from someone in favor to someone no longer trustworthy. I am in such a position because I have feelings relating to the topic title. We Diaspora-Armenians, particularly American-Armenians, have become obsessed with the Genocide. While I understand how the shared, collective trauma of the Genocide dictates a level of fixated interest in the event, the pure obsession has greatly inhibited our abilities as a community to grow, and our abilities as a political entity to realize change. Our community leaders trumpet Genocide recognition. A quick look at the competing lobby groups' websites, the ANC and the Assembly, are transfixed on the Genocide. Everything is Genocide, Genocide, Genocide. All efforts are for Genocide recognition, all monies donated go to Genocide recognition. All marches and demonstrations organized seek Genocide recognition, mainly by the United States' and Turkish governments. So what?! What has it brought us?! After decades, the Turkish and American governments have failed to condemn the Genocide. No reparations have been paid. I cannot go back to my ancestral land in Kharpert. Lake Van is still in Turkey. Others will counter that while those two governments have feigned recognition, others, such as France, Argentina, the Netherlands, and Russia, have in fact recognized the Genocide. Again, I refer to the point above? Ararat may tower over Yerevan, but it remains nothing more than a tease; it's still on internationally recognized Turkish territority. Like every Spiurkahye, I lost family and property in the Genocide. Sure, holding up a sign that says 'We will not forget!' or 'Turkey: Guilty of Genocide' makes me feel good. I'm sure it gives everyone who has done it a sense of victory, that we have somehow honored our ancestors' memories. But at what cost? Countless dollars and hours have been spent on fruitless efforts. Instead of compelling Turkey to admit their wrongdoings, we have permitted their government to propagate and reinforce pre-existing stereotypes of Armenians as sneaky, back-stabbing traitors, trying once again to hurt the 'innocent' Turk. In the process of focusing on the Genocide at all costs, we have hurt ourselves. How many times has an Armenian group backed a Republican candidate promising to vote favorably on Armenian issues? What we fail to recognize is that it is the propagation of realist political ideologies and activities that creates the political environment in which Turkey, a member of NATO, is able to muscle around less-equipped neighbors, and keep its military strong politically (relating to domestic politics). By supporting conservatives in ANY country, espeically the USA, we are reinforcing the preexisting regimes and hurting Armenia-even if said candidate wants to vote favorably on "Armenian issues". The scope of Genocide has not just limited us in seeing the broader political picture, it has consumed the fascination and attention of "Armenian issues". A mobilized Armenian lobby focusing on procuring international aid from foreign governments for the homeland does the Republic of Armenia and the people of that country far greater good than holding up a sign at a protest and shouting 'Turkey is guilty! We demand our lands!' The other 'burning' Armenian issue is Karabagh. Part of this problem is ethno-centrism in the pan-Armenian international community. Spiurka-hayer have chosen to remember the sufferings of Western Armenians, and neglect the sufferings of 'those other' Eastern Armenians, those purged from Karabagh, Baku, Sumgait, and Kirovabad. We have a situation on our hands now where we can influence policy-makers in many countries to seek resolutions favoring Armenia over Azerbaijan. As communities, we can organize direct aid to Stepanakert (from our own pockets and initiatives); the same can be said about aid to ARMENIA. Instead, the money goes to funding Genocide recognition projects. As an Armenian, I found it sad to see that most drives to help the local communities on the ground in Armenia were initiated by odars in NGOs or the Peace Corps. While I would never reject their help because of their background, nor am I trying to imply that their help is sad, it's sad for me that Armenians, "proud Diasporan Armenians who love their country so much", have failed to deliver. To truly do our ancestors proud and to truly defeat the Genocide, we must find new focus in our efforts. With the Genocide being the central issue and diverting attention needed in other areas we are in effect carrying out the final steps of the Genocide; instead of the Turks directly hurting us, we are hurting ourselves now. If nothing else, what would enable to thumb our nose more at the Genocide and the Turks than working to create a strong Republic of Armenia and not allowing our past sufferings to trip us up any more than they already have?

quote:Originally posted by Harut: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:inke chi mtatsoum och mi srboutyan masin, nouynisk Astsu. i didn't know that blacks are descendants of the devil.i didn't say blacks, i said thoth holds nothing holy

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:lady of grace - I'm very sorr that you feel so strongly - you never know you might be missing out....etc mi lsi iran, thoth@ shad aboush e vorovodehev panm@ chgite. inke chi mtatsoum och mi srboutyan masin, nouynisk Astsu. an miayin amerigatsi e, miayin odar e, hay chi. inchou thoth@ hos e? yes al chgitem. he is too strange, even for a liberal american. i've found politically i'm quite liberal and i personally don't care what americans or other odars do, whom they marry, what they do for marriage or before marriage, if they do drugs, etc- that's their business, i have no place to make criticisms. Only making sure Armenians keep with the traditional ways, that's all I care about when looking at what other people do (unfortunately you will find the majority of spiurkahays on this site to live far more like the odars around them). I hate when someone like him acts like they know what's best for Armenians. It's that type of arrogance that causes the rest of the world to hate his people, the Americans.

quote:Originally posted by Armo:I have heard their songs and seen their clip on MTV, but I dont approve of what they represent which I think is one of the reasons why they sell so well and are getting ahead in the music industry in the U.S. Forgive me for not being so "open minded." I'm sure if they were two guys they would not get as much good publicity. Armine smilies/shocked.gif you're right. the russian version, ya soshla s uma, was pretty bad.

ok, technically maybe no, but you get the point i'm trying to convey, yes?

quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:About ownership----- how can we feel an ownership when many people in the Republic view us spiurgahyes as odar? I don't believe for a moment in what you say. P.S. I don't mean anything you say, but above. I've talked to some hayasdantsis (in some cases even beirutsis) who think that other spiurgahyes are not armenian just because we're born in the odar land. I mean, if they want to say someone like THOTH, who has given up almost all aspects of the identity, is not Armenian, fine. I should have re-phrased, not many, rather some. On a personal note, I feel a dual homeland of the present-day republic and Kharpert. After all, 100 years ago Yerevan was just as Armenian as Kharpert, no? It's one country, not a bunch of small ones- Artsakh, Kharpert, Sepastia, Vaspuragan, Yerevan, etc.... just one, Hayasdan, land of the Hyes.

quote:Originally posted by MJ:Alpha, I, personally, don’t think that Diaspora Armenians have obligation to help Armenia financially. Besides, a very significant percentage of Diaspora Armenians is unsettled in its own turf. Actually, I think the other way – Armenia has obligation to help Diaspora. However, I am saddened that Diaspora Armenians, by in large, do not have a feeling of ownership over Armenia. As to the structures, I only believe in structures which have their center of gravity in Armenia. However, I always welcome anythhing positive that is being proposed for Armenia. About ownership----- how can we feel an ownership when many people in the Republic view us spiurgahyes as odar?

Types like me? That's a little judgmental. If it does start with disrespect as you say, it starts with a woman who disrespects herself by dressing like a whore.

praise tha laaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwddddddd!!!!!!!! that protestant crap is so funny.

I know you don't want to hear it, but a girl out by herself, late at night, wearing revealing clothes, IS asking for it. I'm not saying rape isn't wrong, but if I take a nap on the train tracks, it's not like I want the train to run me over, but I am asking for it.

quote:Originally posted by Loreley:No matter what a woman wears (tight pants,short parts,etc.), she should still be respected. That kind of thinking "look at what she wears, she doesn't deserve respect,etc." ties up to the idea "she got raped, but it is her fault because she was out late by herself, she was wearing short skirts, open blouse." Each person can wear whatever they want, that doesn't give you the right to disrespect her/him or harass him/her. no, loreley- if a woman is whoring herself out, trying to use her body to get what she wants, i'm not going to respect that. I'm not going to respect someone just because someone says I have to give them respect. They have to earn it.

quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:girls have to respect themselves first. a girl who has half of her chest hanging out or if i can see her underwear through her jeans because they're so tight...... they shouldn't expect me to respect that. i'm not sayin you do that, but so long as there are other girls that do that, it's going to be that way. i honestly think the muslims are on to something- in a way. Tig, except for that last part, I totally agree with you for a change!!!but you see, that just ties into my thinking that everyone here tries to bash. if girls everywhere are putting out (why i'm so against armenian girls doing it) then of course we're going to be looking at them differently, only wanting one thing. it's not women's 'empowerment' it really only hinders them in the end.

quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by MosJan:yev inchu / inchu petq e mez Tramardkats artaqin tesqov dateq ha ? inche menq dzez hamar miyayn marmin enq ??? isk mer nerqin geretskutyun@??? mer hogin ? mer sirt@n u Garapar@ ??? Mosjan, this is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say from the VERY beginning: are we girls merely marmin to guys? Or do our personalities also count? I'm so sick of guys judging me by my looks! Can they for once (!) concentrate on my personality?? Edit: Also, isn't it personality that is reflected on looks, rather than looks on personality? As in, if you're a nasty person, no matter how modelish your marmin and yeres is, you'll seem ugly, but if you're a nice person, your body and face will automatically look more attractive as well? girls have to respect themselves first. a girl who has half of her chest hanging out or if i can see her underwear through her jeans because they're so tight...... they shouldn't expect me to respect that. i'm not sayin you do that, but so long as there are other girls that do that, it's going to be that way. i honestly think the muslims are on to something- in a way. [ December 19, 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: TigrannesIII ]

Loreley, for God's sake you're in Los Angeles. Look at how women treat themselves there. They more or less whore themselves out to get ahead in the world. Look at the clothes the American girls in LA wear! Do you really want to be put into a world where you won't be judged on your intellectual capabilities, but rather on how much skin you show? Or whether or not you sleep with your boss to get ahead? Trust me, you're much better off as a traditional Armenian mother.

You're exactly right, that's the way it SHOULD be. Look at the quality of people in Armenia versus the quality of person you find in the Western World. Women have their role, men have their role, that's the way it's been and that's the way it should be. Who are we to question what we've been doing? It IS your job as an Armenian woman to raise the children, as naturally you are better at it. You think your husband could POSSIBLY be the same nurturer that you will be- if you don't believe in the Bible (and amot if you don't), then it's in your DNA to fill that role. If you don't like being in a role where your sons will more or less deify you and your husband will show you respect, well then, I guess there's just something wrong with you.

quote:Originally posted by Domino:How could the Armenians still kiss US ass, and be treated like this ? We must face it, with our insignifiant number, and a country land locked without oil, even if we could spend billions its a worthless case against a backward country like Turkey, that has access to every ressources and is a key ally of the US, that will do everything possible to harm Armenia in every way possible. We must stop expecting from the US, there is nothing to gain, this "nation" has no pride, sorry Thoth. I agree with Domino and Gamavor, I can't wait until I've moved out of this damned country.

quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Being xenophobic and liking to be an Armenian are two things completely different. Being xenophobic is putting yourself as superior to others, it is like any other kind of discrimination-boundary; i.e. being homophobic, sexist, racist. In this country, a lot of people are xenophobic toward immigrants (especially non-White immigrants) and we, Armenias as immigrants, should be the less ones to be xenophobic. If xenophobia is what you call keeping my culture, then fine, I'm xenophobic, which I dont think is that big of a deal. And exactly what is racism and sexism? According to western thinking I'm an extremist on both ends of those spectrums, yet I have friends from different cultures and backgrounds. And homophobia? It's not a phobia if I just dont like them, and it's not that big of a deal to not like them.

Kocharyan is going to win, which is a double-edged sword. For starters, we'll maintain the hardline stance on Artsax- ever since LDB I've been scared that anyone else who comes to power will sell out Artsakh. Secondly, foreign investors will see a democratically (or should I say "democratically"?) elected leader re-elected, which shows stability and will attract more foreign investment. In Georgia and Azerbaijan, however, those countries may very well go straight to hell when their dictators die. The negative side, is that Kocharyan is (probably) just as corrupt as any other politician. With Kocharyan being re-elected, it will also mean that Raffi Hovanissian WON'T be President, which is unfortunate because he's probably the most qualified candidate. After him, I'd probably say Kocharyan then I've heard rumblings from people that Demerchyan is another candidate who at least cares about the yergir and not his pocketbook.

quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Tigrannes:hi. If you don't mind me asking, why is it #20 wrong? Doesn't an individual have the right to search for happinness and the right to be in a relationship that is Not gender role oriented and in which both individuals are treated equally? That's because equal means is, and the same things don't apply to man and woman, they both have different roles to fill. Why are you so against traditional roles? Traditionally you will be the center of your family, is there nothing more noble? The role of the traditional Armenian woman is the most respectable role in all the world. We'd all like to be happy, but sometimes we have put others happiness above our own. Personally, that makes me happier than pleasing myself.