Interracial Dating Among Armenians?

[Takoush]

Must you mingle with your own "kind" to be Armenian? If I happen not to mingle with my "kind" am I less of an Armenian? Am I cold towards my ethnicity? I don't think so - it's entirely possible have social circles that extend beyond one's ethnicity and yet still retain a measure of loyalty.

 

No of course not. You are not to be as rigid as only mingling and socialising with Armenians, and by all means you are not cold towards your ethnicity if you mingle with odars. I would never say that and yes, I would agree with the fact that you can and will have odar social circles; but also have some of your own kind too. Especially when you are intermarried with an odar, you must keep a certain measure of fairness with your spouse and perhaps you may like and love your odar circles too. Though especially in the Diaspora, it is almost a must that we have to also stay quite close to our own ethnicity and culture.

 

 

I have no idea what you're asking here, and what you mean by "adhering". What is there to "adhere" to? Ethnicity is not like glue - there are no "rules" or laws that one must follow to be part of an ethnic group.

Basically what I was trying to say is that perhaps you already chose say an odar wife. Perhaps she is French Canadian and most of them are very open minded about accepting your culture and your ethnic background and will have not problem that you would teach your offsprings in your own culture and ethnicity. Even if most of the French Canadian women or men are that way, you simply cannot expect that say, American or French from France of Egnish, Irish, German, Bohemian, Japanese or Chinese men or women will be adhering or accepting your culture and ethnicity enough to have you bring them up Armenian.

 

Protection of one's culture and language does not require self-isolation IMO. It's entirely possible, and desirable perhaps, to be more inclusive with our cultural communities, impart our values to others and grow our populations rather than cut ouselves off from eachother until our eventual demise.

 

See, when you have put the foundation of your offspring especially in the beginning of her/his childhood years to be very close to her own culture and ethnic background, then pretty much you can relax. Because that's exactly what has happened with me. Thanks to my parents.

 

Then only then when the child grows up, she/he can and will of course mingle with odars plenty of times, but will never forget his/her own culture, will grow to love and miss it whenever he/she are apart from their own culture for long periods of times and will end up hopefully intermarrying with their own kind and pass on the same or similar upbringing as was their own. This does not mean not to associate with odars.

 

What does that mean exactly "stay in your own ethnicity" ? Imagine if everyone thought that way. The divides between cultures would extremely significant... out tendancy these days is towards a more global community, with cultures slowly beginning to understanding eachother. What I think you're advocating is a step backwards for humanity.

 

Well, Azat pretty much said that if one is so worried about staying Armenian and about their offsprings becoming and staying Armenian, then one should move to Armenia. I am saying, that would be the ideal thing; but since we are not packing yet to go to Armenia, then we shouldn't give up the ship and do advocate or stress to remain Armenian; btw, intermarry with an Armenian and to bring up our offsprings Armenian and introducing them to own culture, etc. while we are staying here in the Diaspora.

 

Yes, I know the world or rather the European world wants to become globalised; but I don't think that is a very good idea for us. I also think that any people of ethnic and cultural background should remain in their own kind and ethnicity; because having and bearing cosmopolitan tendencies doesn't inspire me much. I simply do not believe in it. For the simple reason that if people in general will become a globalised community, they will tend to become more self centered, that is plainly sellfish, and finally more destructive. I believe that having and keeping one's ethnicity is vital for the human kind to be more constructive and selfless, because one will work more and feel more and love more their own ethnicity, the survival of it and with it their own culture.

Edited May 19, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Ed; I internalised it and didn't talk about general. Say you may try to bring up your child Armenian and you may succeed, but chances are if her/his blood is mixed with an odar, then there's more possibility that they will become less Armenians then if their blood was pure Armenian. That was my very point. And subsequently they will remain Armenian for their entire life.

 

I know some Armenians are far away from their heritage and culture; but I think there's still a great deal that are still very close to their own. I simply believe that you will have more of a chance to -a- stay Armenian when you intermarry with an Armenian and -b- your offspring as well.

 

Now about how much we are close to our culture in the USA or aboad that's an entirely varied matter among each Armenian. I still think that even though we dress and eat sometimes, read odar books, mingle with odar friends and circles; regardless when we have pure Armenian ethnic blood we will tend to stay more Armenian as well as love our own songs, dance, books and culture.

[tigranisbasileus]

Anonymouse:

 

Your words and your wording and lingo are excuisite but much more than your wonderful lingo and how beautifully you phrased your words is your idealism and the thruthfulness of your words.

 

You spoke my mind and my heart but you spoke better than I could've spoke. Thank you.

 

Also I wish people would read Armenian General Karekin Nejteh's booklet and it says in it that being cosmpolitan is being sellfish, senseless and serving no one but yourself and further in time the human being will be destructive. Preserving and working for the preservation of your nation can be both rewarding and fulfilling. It can also be useful to the world rather than opting for being a cosmopolitan, but we as Armenians should learn to sacrifice a little and marry our own kind. A little sacrifice here is in order.

 

Alas, if the trend of the Armenians continue NOT TO CARE TO WED ONLY AMONG THEMSELVES, we shall also become useless cosmopolitans on this earth, without a country, without Armenia and without Armenian culture. So the choice is ours, MARRY WITH AN ARMENIAN, TO YOUR OWN KIND OR VANISH.

]

 

 

Dear Hyers,

 

 

I fall into the category of an ODAR like you choose to call me, being in a serious relationship with a beautiful girl, which happens to be armenian. I just recently discovered the meaning of the word odar so I find it delightful to see it being tossed around so freely. First, I must state I have the utmost respect for the armenian culture. I believe it to be beautiful, just ilke my girlfriend. I know it must piss off some of you guys to see my girlfriend in love with me and vice-versa. Quite frankly : I believe it not to be your business. If everybody kept to their own, rather than criticize others choices we would be better.

Secondly, i believe that the opinoins expressed here are not representative of all armenians. Everybody has a right to their opinions; it only becomes a problem when you impose your opinion on others or make them feel like shit for not agreeong with you.

Thirdly, the odar debate is a valid one for the simple reason that this debate is also prevalen in other diaspora groups such aas italians greeks, arabs and jews. In the case of Italians and Greeks, I belive that I can speak being a person who has grown up with italians and of course being greek. We don't have so much the same preoccupation with the preservation of our ethinicity because popular culture advertizes it enough for us. When you opne a history book, you see that the egyptians, romans-italians and greeks and also arabs figure prominently. Identity isn't also a question of how you feel but how aothers perceive you. Unfortunately, armenian culture isn't as well known and I belive it is difficult to sell something which isn't as known: question of brand recongnition: example: It is easier to make someone drive a mercedes than a saab. saabs are great automobiles, yet the brand recognition isn't as good.

Having studied the armenian culture and the diapora's attiude towards their culture, I belive a distinction should be made between positive cultural reinforcement and negative. Italians and Greeks have it easier because their cultural isnetity isn't based on fear. These two cultures base their pride on accomplishments and on thier respecitve contributions to western civilization. Per captipa, these two culture have contributed more in all spectres of life to modern western society that most have. It doesn't make them in any way better, just easier to feel an attachement to. Having seen mixed greek and italian couples, the children view themselves as being predominantly of these two cultures due to the fact that western civilization objectively values their contribution and hence makes it easy for those iwht these roots to feel proud.

In the case of judaic and armenian cultures, what I have noticed is there is room for positive reinforcement yet for various reasons, a negative reinforcement based cultural identity is dominent amongst the diaspora. I attribute this to various factors:

1- geographical: the armenian nation has being a people in between various famous civilizations: persians, assyrians, babylians and greeks. It is difficult for a culture to grow and prosper when constantly in fear of being assmilated by these strong neighbors.

2- demographical: the dispora was traditionally spead of over various regions of Asia Minor. VEry often, armenians where not in a majority position in any of the major areas.

3- Historical: Armenia, a sovereign republic came to existence late in the game.circa 1991. If like Ialty and Greece, it would have been created in the 19th century it would be stronger today.

4- mass media: Momst even small nations have satellite tv channels which provide a mean for the diapsora to keep in touch with local events in the the homeland. Unfortunately because Armenians have been a diaspora people for a long time they don't see alink between the republic and themselves.

5- Education: Armenian language education is offered in various communities of the world. however, there is big rift between both dialects, which create a cultural rift and create a non uniform language. Mass media can correct this: it has done for hebrew (yiddish not spoken anymore) greek and italian.

My point is that there are reasons why you cannot keep a culture based on negative reinforcement. The armenian diaspora for it to survive must adopt models which work: othewise you only create a pride based on guilt: got to marry and keep your culture out of guilt.

I must say although that the judaic culture has been able to base its survial on keeping members strong by guilt. So maybe my logic is flawed. Yet, historically, they are the only people that have know adversity of such epic proportion: so it works, but only for them. Also, to their credit theiy have the organisational skills to make it work. I belive that communities around the world should even mimic their organisation.

When I read blogs of people saying conversion to armenian, I smile. You must respect people for who they are. You are born a certain way. Out of love, a spouse might choose to let you dominate the cultural upbring of your children, but never think they can renounce who they are.

Also armenians that choose to marry odars, like myslf are not traitors. I belive that these chldren from these unions shall be ambassadors of their armenian ancestory. The biggest damage that armenians have done is intermarrying. The best way to publisize the culture is by giving up some of the flock to odars to create bonds with other communities.

When I fell on this forum I could not believe what I saw: armenians blasting odars. No man is an island and no culture is an island. Interraction is the key. Whetther this goes as far as intermarriage, well... this for you to decide.

As a person of greek descent and dating and armenian girl, it bothers me that people who call themselves armenian, which we have helped, given them houses , citizenship, which in our poor country, we split our bread with, would see us as a threat to the survival or the ARMENIAN RACE.

As a people, we shall always help armenians, because you are our brothers...and in the end, to bad if we take your women: because we respect them, and they come willingly....Love is the way...not guilt....

tigranes basileus

[Anonymouse]

. Identity isn't also a question of how you feel but how aothers perceive you. Unfortunately, armenian culture isn't as well known and I belive it is difficult to sell something which isn't as known: question of brand recongnition: example: It is easier to make someone drive a mercedes than a saab. saabs are great automobiles, yet the brand recognition isn't as good.

 

 

This is the stupidest line of reasoning I have ever heard. So one being Armenian and seeking to preserve Armenian culture is not an end in itself, but is dependent on what others perceive them as? Where do you folks get these wild assumptions, like perennial phantasms that never cease.

 

 

Having studied the armenian culture and the diapora's attiude towards their culture, I belive a distinction should be made between positive cultural reinforcement and negative. Italians and Greeks have it easier because their cultural isnetity isn't based on fear. These two cultures base their pride on accomplishments and on thier respecitve contributions to western civilization. Per captipa, these two culture have contributed more in all spectres of life to modern western society that most have. It doesn't make them in any way better, just easier to feel an attachement to. Having seen mixed greek and italian couples, the children view themselves as being predominantly of these two cultures due to the fact that western civilization objectively values their contribution and hence makes it easy for those iwht these roots to feel proud.

In the case of judaic and armenian cultures, what I have noticed is there is room for positive reinforcement yet for various reasons, a negative reinforcement based cultural identity is dominent amongst the diaspora. I attribute this to various factors:

1- geographical: the armenian nation has being a people in between various famous civilizations: persians, assyrians, babylians and greeks. It is difficult for a culture to grow and prosper when constantly in fear of being assmilated by these strong neighbors.

2- demographical: the dispora was traditionally spead of over various regions of Asia Minor. VEry often, armenians where not in a majority position in any of the major areas.

3- Historical: Armenia, a sovereign republic came to existence late in the game.circa 1991. If like Ialty and Greece, it would have been created in the 19th century it would be stronger today.

4- mass media: Momst even small nations have satellite tv channels which provide a mean for the diapsora to keep in touch with local events in the the homeland. Unfortunately because Armenians have been a diaspora people for a long time they don't see alink between the republic and themselves.

5- Education: Armenian language education is offered in various communities of the world. however, there is big rift between both dialects, which create a cultural rift and create a non uniform language. Mass media can correct this: it has done for hebrew (yiddish not spoken anymore) greek and italian.

My point is that there are reasons why you cannot keep a culture based on negative reinforcement. The armenian diaspora for it to survive must adopt models which work: othewise you only create a pride based on guilt: got to marry and keep your culture out of guilt.

I must say although that the judaic culture has been able to base its survial on keeping members strong by guilt. So maybe my logic is flawed. Yet, historically, they are the only people that have know adversity of such epic proportion: so it works, but only for them. Also, to their credit theiy have the organisational skills to make it work. I belive that communities around the world should even mimic their organisation.

When I read blogs of people saying conversion to armenian, I smile. You must respect people for who they are. You are born a certain way. Out of love, a spouse might choose to let you dominate the cultural upbring of your children, but never think they can renounce who they are.

Also armenians that choose to marry odars, like myslf are not traitors. I belive that these chldren from these unions shall be ambassadors of their armenian ancestory. The biggest damage that armenians have done is intermarrying. The best way to publisize the culture is by giving up some of the flock to odars to create bonds with other communities.

When I fell on this forum I could not believe what I saw: armenians blasting odars. No man is an island and no culture is an island. Interraction is the key. Whetther this goes as far as intermarriage, well... this for you to decide.

As a person of greek descent and dating and armenian girl, it bothers me that people who call themselves armenian, which we have helped, given them houses , citizenship, which in our poor country, we split our bread with, would see us as a threat to the survival or the ARMENIAN RACE.

As a people, we shall always help armenians, because you are our brothers...and in the end, to bad if we take your women: because we respect them, and they come willingly....Love is the way...not guilt....

tigranes basileus

 

"For fear is the original and basic feeling of man; from fear everything is explicable, original sin and original virtue." ---Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

 

Aside from your paternalistic tone toward Armenians from the high horse of Greekdom, what is your purpose? And how can anyone call the legitimate instinct of self-preservation based on fear? The eastern world, China, Japan, and Korea do not engage in the multicultural mileu and suicide that the West is swimming in. Indians in fact are very conscious of this as well, as they are insistent on their marriages be common even down to the local village and tribe. So are these peoples' sense of race and culture based on fear, these peoples who number in the millions and billions and are 'well known' compared to Armenian standards, as you so insist?

 

My recommendation for you is to stop with spurious and blanket assumptions and engage in 1 hour of reading the forum before each posting.

 

Dr. Mouse.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anonymouse

[Takoush]

Mr. Greek man: I happen to disagree with everything that you said above. Though the Greek government opened their doors to us and gave a few thousands of Armenians food and shelter after the Genocide; but in no way no how did the Greek government created or sustained us. What Armenians did for themselves is just that; they did it for themselves. No other country fights for you or preserve and sustain your nationality. Our men of arms preserved our nationality and however we survived, we survived due to the merit and the credit of our brave men and women. Please read our history and you'll come across some very interesting and enlightening history. Our Armenian history in the past and in the immediate past.

 

Only I know how much fanaticm in general Greeks have been through history and still are. Your nationality I believe is about or more than 50 Million people. We are very little compared to your nationality. Do you think that without fear as my friend just enlightened you above, we will continue to survive? I FEAR AND HOW!!!!! Yes I personally do fear for the preservation and continuity of my nationality and with it my beautiful culture. Why else would I continue to speak my mind in here? Because I fear and because I love my nationality as you people love yours.

 

I strongly believe in the preservation of my nationlity through intermarriage. I also strongly believe that your idealism is very wrong in regards to the Europeanised globalisation of mixed cultures. I strongly believe that when that happends, people will become living only for themselves and therefore they will deteriorate in nature. It is therefore very beneficial to preserve your nationality the best way you can. Even if you have to be a fanatic. Yes even then. Globalised culture is nothing but being a selfish man and not caring much about anything but yourself. However, when you do belong to a nationality, only then you become more selfless, working and thinking towards the goals of that one nationality.

 

I see myself in the United States. Why do you think people are very sellfish in here, and I know they are. They are not and they do not feel how I feel towards my Armenian nationality and descent. Because America is a mixed of cultures. How could they feel so strongly and nationalistically towards their own, they don't because they feel not much bases and oneness towards themselves. Yet I'm sure you'd see a great difference between a real Chinese, a real Japanese, a blue blood Greek, or a blue blood Armenian. That's the difference. And that is the difference I would like to see it preserved for my nationality.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[vava]

I strongly believe in the preservation of my nationlity through intermarriage. I also strongly believe that your idealism is very wrong in regards to the Europeanised globalisation of mixed cultures. I strongly believe that when that happends, people will become living only for themselves and therefore they will deteriorate in nature. It is therefore very beneficial to preserve your nationality the best way you can. Even if you have to be a fanatic. Yes even then. Globalised culture is nothing but being a selfish man and not caring much about anything but yourself. However, when you do belong to a nationality, only then you become more selfless, working and thinking towards the goals of that one nationality.

Good grief You should be a communist. Everyone 'belongs' to a nationality. And everyone has the right to think/work towards their individual goals. How can you say that globalisation leads to selfishness? Do you have some sort of scientific study that indicates such? Mixed cultures are bad becomes they lead to people "living only for themselves" - but fanatical nationalism will save the world? I'm sorry, but I think you're off your rocker.

[Takoush]

Good grief You should be a communist. Everyone 'belongs' to a nationality. And everyone has the right to think/work towards their individual goals. How can you say that globalisation leads to selfishness? Do you have some sort of scientific study that indicates such? Mixed cultures are bad becomes they lead to people "living only for themselves" - but fanatical nationalism will save the world? I'm sorry, but I think you're off your rocker.

You can call me any names you deem want; but without principles and some self control nothing can be achieved. Would you dare to call the Japanese, The Chinese or even the Indian nations communists and that they're off their rocker too? Or do I have to have a great speech eloquentcy for me not to be attacked from the likes of you. Go ahead attack, but yes I am scientifically talking sense. Go and do some research then talk that way to me If you can.

 

When you guys are in a jam all you guys do is attack with words!!!!!!

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[ED]

Anahit I think you take every post derected at you very personal, thats not going to help for having a healty discussion, everyone here is your friend! and fellow Armenian, put down your defansive shield and relax girl

otherwise we are geting tired of this nonesence.

[Takoush]

Anahit I think you take every post derected at you very personal, thats not going to help for having a healty discussion, everyone here is your friend! and fellow Armenian, put down your defansive shield and relax girl

otherwise we are geting tired of this nonesence.

Of this nonsense? of this nonsense? Calling communist and off the rocker? And you are tired?????

[ED]

Of this nonsense? of this nonsense? Calling communist and off the rocker? And you are tired?????

 

 

your totaly missing my point, again you take it personal!

I give up Tagush jan

[Takoush]

Anahit I think you take every post derected at you very personal, thats not going to help for having a healty discussion, everyone here is your friend! and fellow Armenian, put down your defansive shield and relax girl

otherwise we are geting tired of this nonesence.

 

Dear Ed:

 

I understood what you are trying to say and try to make me feel better and not internalizing; but I suppose I didn't care even as a jest to be associated with Communism or being told I am off my rocker. Probably vava didn't like mike views about tending towards a total self preservation nationality and tending more towards fanaticism. But I do believe in it and it has been talked about. Read on General Karekin Nejteh and what he has to say.

 

I am sorry if I am not siding with vava's views or yours, however for a long time I did go on having a monologue with vava and some with you as well and I enjoyed it.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

"Blood" or genetics has little to do with pride or association. I know of Armenian pesas and odar wives of Armenians who are more "Armenian" than full-blooded Armenians (or 7/8 Armenians like myself). I know 1/2 Armenians who totally Armenian in their outlook. Raised in the bosom of the Armenian Church, they have been totally acculturated in both the positive and negative aspects or Armenian culture.

 

Being raised as an "Anglo" Protestant, I have the demeanor of a odar. Even my Catholic European friends say that they overlook my obvious Armenian looks and consider me a Northern European Protestant.

 

It has to do with the acculturation process. My nephew is 1/2 Armenian but totally a Jew. His parents are divorced and he was raised as a super-Jew at Jewish schools. He has little awareness of his Armenian heritage. I will attempt to introduce him to his heritage as his Armenian ancestors were very prominent.

 

 

 

Ed; I internalised it and didn't talk about general. Say you may try to bring up your child Armenian and you may succeed, but chances are if her/his blood is mixed with an odar, then there's more possibility that they will become less Armenians then if their blood was pure Armenian. That was my very point. And subsequently they will remain Armenian for their entire life.

 

I know some Armenians are far away from their heritage and culture; but I think there's still a great deal that are still very close to their own. I simply believe that you will have more of a chance to -a- stay Armenian when you intermarry with an Armenian and -b- your offspring as well.

 

Now about how much we are close to our culture in the USA or aboad that's an entirely varied matter among each Armenian. I still think that even though we dress and eat sometimes, read odar books, mingle with odar friends and circles; regardless when we have pure Armenian ethnic blood we will tend to stay more Armenian as well as love our own songs, dance, books and culture.

Edited May 20, 2006 by phantom22

[Anonymouse]

Anahid,

 

"Blood" or genetics has little to do with pride or association. I know of Armenian pesas and odar wives of Armenians who are more "Armenian" than full-blooded Armenians (or 7/8 Armenians like myself). I know 1/2 Armenians who totally Armenian in their outlook.

 

So I guess we should all just mix, huh?

[Takoush]

So I guess we should all just mix, huh?

Anon:

 

I guess so. That's the message we are getting from everyone; but the funny thing is that I am not buying.

 

Some may have been mixed already, others may have non-Armenian wives or husbands. So? We are not saying anything to them, nor should they take it upon them.

 

The message we are giving or have tried to give is for the new generation, the ones that haven't tied the knot yet.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[ED]

some clean up has been done to none relaited posts regarding the topic

 

please, keep it clean and and stick with the topic at hand

 

 

Thanks

[Anonymouse]

Anon:

 

I guess so. That's the message we are getting from everyone; but the funny thing is that I am not buying.

 

Some may have been mixed already, others may have non-Armenian wives or husbands. So? We are not saying anything to them, nor should they take it upon them.

 

The message we are giving or have tried to give is for the new generation, the ones that haven't tied the knot yet.

 

All I can say is, if these thoughts be the products of us, then Armenians are short sighted and stupid, and that stupidity and myopia will be the wedge that will be pushed further into the heart of this creative, little, yet awfully naive people. What good is supposed Genocide recognition if the Armenians themselves are not willing to continue their culture and generation? Tapakutyan gagatnaket. With Armenians like these, enemies are a matter of taste and convention. And when you are your own enemy, it is often a waste at finger pointing to the Turk. Then the Turk's prophecy of 'What the Turk did not finish the Armenian will do it itself' will be fullfilled. There is a wicked falseness in those who do not will beyond their symphony of small virtues.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Anonymouse

[aSoldier]

The message we are giving or have tried to give is for the new generation, the ones that haven't tied the knot yet.

 

I'm way ahead of you there

[aSoldier]

What good is supposed Genocide recognition if the Armenians themselves are not willing to continue their culture and generation?

A very good question...who will answer?

With Armenians like these, enemies are a matter of taste and convention. And when you are your own enemy, it is often a waste at finger pointing to the Turk. Then the Turk's prophecy of 'What the Turk did not finish the Armenian will do it itself' will be fullfilled. There is a wicked falseness in those who do not will beyond their symphony of small virtues.

This sums up the mindset I have towards those who promote mixing with other cultures. I take my hat off to you, Anon.

[Harut]

i understand that this entire thread is evolving around diasporean armenias... would you people have the same opinion about armenians living in armenia? would you consider it 'dangerous' to marry a non-armenian in armenia?

[Anonymouse]

Good grief You should be a communist. Everyone 'belongs' to a nationality. And everyone has the right to think/work towards their individual goals. How can you say that globalisation leads to selfishness? Do you have some sort of scientific study that indicates such? Mixed cultures are bad becomes they lead to people "living only for themselves" - but fanatical nationalism will save the world? I'm sorry, but I think you're off your rocker.

 

Please, spare the bile of how those who insist on preserving their race and culture are 'fanatical' but those that engage in hedonistic buoyancy are somehow 'rational' and purely 'level-headed'. Anileve used this same line of reasoning but I assure you, 'fanatical' is only a matter of perspective. After all, are those of you who engage in your prurient interests and live only for your mere animality and chastize those that express different opinions not 'fanatical'? Fanaticism is a two way road and it's neither confined nor limited to religious fundamentalists, conspiracy theorists, or those who seek to preserve their culture, popularly known as 'racists' and 'nationalists'. It seems to me that those who seek to justify their 'fanatical individualism' will use any type of reasoning to somehow place them in the clear. Never once do they stop to pause and think that just maybe, they are guilty of the same fanaticism they accuse others of. It's also clear to me, what is at stake is no longer worth preserving for the majority of you, and "Armenian" is simply a costume people go in and out of, like a mood.

[Anonymouse]

would you consider it 'dangerous' to marry a non-armenian in armenia?

 

Yes.

 

You see harut jan, people have always mixed, but it has always been localized and an exception, to the point where the large majority maintained itself. But modernity has a strange way of erasing distinctions between peoples and cultures, between high and low cultures. In this world, what was previously nothing but a localized exception to the rule, is now the rule. And it has been promoted and allowed to happen, and from elected officials, to high school text books, a sense of racial or cultural nihilism has been promoted and inculcated into the lovely masses. But alas, who cares, right? What is more important is my gut!

[Takoush]

Please, spare the bile of how those who insist on preserving their race and culture are 'fanatical' but those that engage in hedonistic buoyancy are somehow 'rational' and purely 'level-headed'. Anileve used this same line of reasoning but I assure you, 'fanatical' is only a matter of perspective. After all, are those of you who engage in your prurient interests and live only for your mere animality and chastize those that express different opinions not 'fanatical'? Fanaticism is a two way road and it's neither confined nor limited to religious fundamentalists, conspiracy theorists, or those who seek to preserve their culture, popularly known as 'racists' and 'nationalists'. It seems to me that those who seek to justify their 'fanatical individualism' will use any type of reasoning to somehow place them in the clear. Never once do they stop to pause and think that just maybe, they are guilty of the same fanaticism they accuse others of. It's also clear to me, what is at stake is no longer worth preserving for the majority of you, and "Armenian" is simply a costume people go in and out of, like a mood.

Dear Anon:

 

I can't thank you enough for speaking my mind and my soul, for you did just that. Yet when I tried to defend myself that I am neither communist nor crazy; I have been told that I take too many things personal and I shouldn't take it personal.

 

I am crazy Anon because I feel the necessasity to want so much to have my new generation Armenians to intermarry within for the preservation of my nationality. Yet one of the few people who attacked me here, has askied me if I happen to care about Yerevan or Armenia at all? Like they are the only ones who do care.

 

Well, if I didn't care Anon; would I be here? What kind of a reasoning is that to ask me such a question, after 10 mos of talking to these people, expressing myself with my utmost nationalistic sense and "hoki" how much I care and how much I love my nationality. Even to the extent of giving away a great deal of my personal life as examples for them to follow, I have so far and in that span of time have created about 6-7 Armenian poetries, and they are asking me if I care about Armenia or Yerevan.

 

On this note Anon, I will exit from hereon. Like you said friend, being "Armenian" is simply a costume people go in and out of, like a mood in here. I therefore am amazed and I have nothing further to say.

[Anonymouse]

Dear Anon:

 

I can't thank you enough for speaking my mind and my soul, for you did just that. Yet when I tried to defend myself that I am neither communist nor crazy; I have been told that I take too many things personal and I shouldn't take it personal.

 

I am crazy Anon because I feel the necessasity to want so much to have my new generation Armenians to intermarry within for the preservation of my nationality. Yet one of the few people who attacked me here, has askied me if I happen to care about Yerevan or Armenia at all? Like they are the only ones who do care.

 

Well, if I didn't care Anon; would I be here? What kind of a reasoning is that to ask me such a question, after 10 mos of talking to these people, expressing myself with my utmost nationalistic sense and "hoki" how much I care and how much I love my nationality. Even to the extent of giving away a great deal of my personal life as examples for them to follow, I have so far and in that span of time have created about 6-7 Armenian poetries, and they are asking me if I care about Armenia or Yerevan.

 

On this note Anon, I will exit from hereon. Like you said friend, being "Armenian" is simply a costume people go in and out of, like a mood in here. I therefore am amazed and I have nothing further to say.

 

Asem inchi, vorohetev apoosh mernum en. khelknera tvel en amen apooshootsyan yev gjootsyan u giten te yesim inch en darel. Bayts et terutyoona klini hyeri dagagha. Vochinch, anahid jan, hayera mi kich mankamit en. Amen inch irants mot mi tas tari oosh a artnanum. Bayts vor es yeraznerits artnanan arten oosh klini. Kneres kuro jan, bayts arevmdahyerenas shat lav chi.

[vava]

Please, spare the bile of how those who insist on preserving their race and culture are 'fanatical' but those that engage in hedonistic buoyancy are somehow 'rational' and purely 'level-headed'. Anileve used this same line of reasoning but I assure you, 'fanatical' is only a matter of perspective. After all, are those of you who engage in your prurient interests and live only for your mere animality and chastize those that express different opinions not 'fanatical'? Fanaticism is a two way road and it's neither confined nor limited to religious fundamentalists, conspiracy theorists, or those who seek to preserve their culture, popularly known as 'racists' and 'nationalists'. It seems to me that those who seek to justify their 'fanatical individualism' will use any type of reasoning to somehow place them in the clear. Never once do they stop to pause and think that just maybe, they are guilty of the same fanaticism they accuse others of. It's also clear to me, what is at stake is no longer worth preserving for the majority of you, and "Armenian" is simply a costume people go in and out of, like a mood.

 

You are taking my post way out of context. I never accused anyone of fanaticism, nor did I ever mention that those who wish to preserve our culture are fanatics. As a matter of fact, that intention is, in my opinion, quite noble. What is at question in this thread is the degree to which an ethnically 'pure' marriage will be efficient in preserving a said culture, especially within the context of a diffused diasporan community.

 

The issue of fanaticism was brought up by Takouhi, who said:

It is therefore very beneficial to preserve your nationality the best way you can. Even if you have to be a fanatic. Yes even then. Globalised culture is nothing but being a selfish man and not caring much about anything but yourself. However, when you do belong to a nationality, only then you become more selfless, working and thinking towards the goals of that one nationality.

 

I disagree with this kind of thinking because it presumes the following:

 

1 - Any offspring of a Armenian-Odar marriage in Diaspora will cease to be an Armenian altogether – he will not be aware of his/her roots, will not speak the language, will not hold any interest/respect for his culture and will not participate in his ethnic community.

 

2 - Any offspring of an ethnically 'pure' Armenian marriage in Diaspora will automatically (merely by the virtue of being pure of blood) propagate all aspects of Armenian culture and as such, preserve the Armenian race.

 

Active diasporan communities are sometimes less than welcoming towards 'half-Armenians'. It's a sad state of affairs when this is so - many of these children desire to learn their mother tongue, they enjoy the food, the music. They enjoy being part of community and could potentially be great contributors in the future. Many of the famous Armenians we celebrate are, in fact, half-Armenians. And we appreciate their involvement and loyalty to our community. So point number one above does not always hold true.

Why automatically exclude someone who only has one Armenian parent? Are they not Armenian? Should we not make efforts to include them in our communities? With the right attitude adjustment, point number one becomes moot.

 

A greater concern to me, is when I see Armenians counting on marriage to propagate their culture. Here in Diaspora, there are immigrant families arriving with young children who become assimilated in a matter of years. Are not both parents of the same ethnicity? Shouldn't they automatically love, cherish and preserve their culture? Strange but it doesn't always happen that way. When speaking of preserving our culture, we need more than just insisting that our youth marry each other - marriage is no guarantee.

 

I disagree with some folks who believe that fanatically pursuing purely Armenian marriages as an end will be some sort of magical cultural preservation cure. In my mind it's the pursuit of a panacea; it could prove to be fruitless - when much effort could be made to integrate a growing portion of our population into our communities. Cultures evolve; cultures grow - especially when they are uprooted from their traditional homes. It's possible to retain the links to our ancestry and teach our youth about their roots, culture and language, without isolationist rhetoric.

[phantom22]

I have bolded part of Vava's post below.

 

The ONLY way to hold on to the Armenian youth is to instill in them their Armenans heritage, while allowing them to flow with the host culture, which is now globalized. The youth culture is globalized.

 

Andre will soon become a global figure equal in stature to Cher, only this time he is a person with a strong Armenian identity which Cher did not share since she was estranged from her father and her mother was French/Swedish/Cherokee.

 

 

You are taking my post way out of context. I never accused anyone of fanaticism, nor did I ever mention that those who wish to preserve our culture are fanatics. As a matter of fact, that intention is, in my opinion, quite noble. What is at question in this thread is the degree to which an ethnically 'pure' marriage will be efficient in preserving a said culture, especially within the context of a diffused diasporan community.

 

The issue of fanaticism was brought up by Takouhi, who said:

I disagree with this kind of thinking because it presumes the following:

 

1 - Any offspring of a Armenian-Odar marriage in Diaspora will cease to be an Armenian altogether – he will not be aware of his/her roots, will not speak the language, will not hold any interest/respect for his culture and will not participate in his ethnic community.

 

2 - Any offspring of an ethnically 'pure' Armenian marriage in Diaspora will automatically (merely by the virtue of being pure of blood) propagate all aspects of Armenian culture and as such, preserve the Armenian race.

 

Active diasporan communities are sometimes less than welcoming towards 'half-Armenians'. It's a sad state of affairs when this is so - many of these children desire to learn their mother tongue, they enjoy the food, the music. They enjoy being part of community and could potentially be great contributors in the future. Many of the famous Armenians we celebrate are, in fact, half-Armenians. And we appreciate their involvement and loyalty to our community. So point number one above does not always hold true.

Why automatically exclude someone who only has one Armenian parent? Are they not Armenian? Should we not make efforts to include them in our communities? With the right attitude adjustment, point number one becomes moot.

 

A greater concern to me, is when I see Armenians counting on marriage to propagate their culture. Here in Diaspora, there are immigrant families arriving with young children who become assimilated in a matter of years. Are not both parents of the same ethnicity? Shouldn't they automatically love, cherish and preserve their culture? Strange but it doesn't always happen that way. When speaking of preserving our culture, we need more than just insisting that our youth marry each other - marriage is no guarantee.

 

I disagree with some folks who believe that fanatically pursuing purely Armenian marriages as an end will be some sort of magical cultural preservation cure. In my mind it's the pursuit of a panacea; it could prove to be fruitless - when much effort could be made to integrate a growing portion of our population into our communities. Cultures evolve; cultures grow - especially when they are uprooted from their traditional homes. It's possible to retain the links to our ancestry and teach our youth about their roots, culture and language, without isolationist rhetoric.