Interracial Dating Among Armenians?

[Yervant1]

In my opinion you guys are saying the same thing with a little personal twist on it.

[Takoush]

In my opinion you guys are saying the same thing with a little personal twist on it.

Perhaps Yervant; but when people argue with you about something that is so basic and logical but at the same time soooooo vital and important for the survival of our nationality; you must answer them back and let them know the importance of the subject matter and what they are saying doesn't hold water!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Yervant:

 

Also, before I have joined this Forum I came across to several Tall Armenian Tale websites; of course administered by Turks, and I came across to one of them saying that "Huh, we Armenians are only a mere one million in Armenia; we left Armenia by millions lately, and thus we will soo vanish in the Diaspora and one day there will be no trace of any Armenian on earth".

 

Very unfortunately, there is some truth to those words Yervant; we are arguing as to why we should marry within our nationality when we fall in love with non-Armenians. Oh pleaseeeeeeeee, KGB is saying that we are being coerced. We should give up our nationality of inter-marrying and simply marry any other nationality because there is no need for us to intermarry. Anahit at another time called me stupid, and all kinds of other things, then she said that she'll stop talking to me on this thread; yet immediately after that she has opened up another thread under "Life" thread and put my intelligence down, and all sorts of uncalled of names; showing her own ignorance, unintelligence and arrogance. I know that she was implying me, because knowing that I am not that young she started charging at the fact of older people this and older people that. Then she put down my very intelligence arrogently, because she happened to be married with an odar (non-Armenian).

 

Now, you see Yervant? We are so little; yet we continue to be illogical, unintelligent and unrealistically we are yelling at each other that we should intermarry with odars, and in the Diaspora that the "hosank" is already so vast and GREAT.

 

Meanwhile the Turks are laughing at us that we are arguing about such a matter and they are saying that we will vanish in the Diaspora because WE WILL MARRY WITH NON-ARMENIANS, and there is no hope for us.

 

You see how counter-productive and sellfish some of our people are? Now knowing all of that, how can we love our nationality, for the ones that we do, and not respond to such common and basic and vital of arguments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Arpa]

Anahid. With all due respects. Please don't get any ideas. I don't read your "sermons".

Right off the bat.

Sure!!

I can talk!!!!

Both of our Armenian children are married to Armenians of their own choice.

Reason…?

Enough of that!

Aside the fact that I have always inculcated in them all that is beautiful about us., blond and blue eyed, black haired and brown eyed ..

No Genocide, please! That most shameful, if tragic era of out history !

Of course! There are more so-called Armenians in Glendale than Yerevan and more devout Apostolic Christians in Antelias than in Ejmiatsin. How idiotic can we be? My own brother and my most beloved khnami are both named ARAM.

What an idiot, regardless of His PHD!!

I can talk. Since I don't subscribe to either of them, or any othet black robed pagan "priest".

Then!

Shall we move the Capital of Armenia to Beirut and our spiritual capital to Antelias???!!

What the hell are we talking about!

When none of us have volunteered to resettle to Yerevan/and Ejmiatsin while droves of them look forward to resettle in Glendale??!!

YEAH! Yeah! I know we can preserve our armenianness in Glendale and Antelias..

Of course!

I also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Shall we place our money where our v***ks are!!!

Edited May 4, 2006 by Arpa

[Takoush]

If you don't read my so called "sermons" as you just put it. Then what are you talking about?

 

Why are you obsessed with Antelias? I know I know your point in matter is about staying in the Diaspora, but we weren't born in the Diaspora. We were born in here. Since we are born in here then at least we should make a concerted effort to intermarry with our own nationality!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

If you don't read my so called "sermons" as you just put it. Then what are you talking about?

 

Why are you obsessed with Antelias? I know I know your point in matter is about staying in the Diaspora, but we weren't born in the Diaspora. We were born in here. Since we are born in here then at least we should make a concerted effort to intermarry with our own nationality!!!!!!!!!

To the readers; I made a slight mistake above. I meant to say that we (meaning me) in this case, that I was born in the Diaspora.

[Takoush]

What you are plainly suggesting that we should give up the ship in the Diaspora because even though we were born in here we should either go to Armenia or not speak. That is downright stupid talk. Who is going to stop me for speaking the truth and what is vitally important for our preservation in the Diaspora?

 

Since most of the Armenians are in the Diaspora then we should preserve our nationality by at the very least intermarrying within our own kind!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And Arpa, you can put your money wherever you want it!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Yervant1]

Anahid I read KGB's posts and understood this.

KGB is for Armenians marrying Armenians with some effort from their parents or family members guiding them towards that goal but they shouldn't be coerced to the point where they marry an Armenian that they don't love is not worthed. He's not advocating odar marriage, but a healthy one if it happens between two Armenians that's even better. KGB please correct me if I got it all wrong.

Anahid I'm glad that your marriage to an Armenian turned up OK but it could have been just the opposite what then you would have been miserable and sad, also I'm sure your tune would have been different.

Please don't waste your energy visiting talltale sites they are nothing but garbage and its not important what they say. Also relax otherwise you are going to have a heart attack we need your highness Queen Anahid.

[Anonymouse]

Actually, some people are forcing themselves. How do you know they aren’t? Are you psychic?

 

Which is my point. Stop pretending you know with certitude when you really don't.

 

Saying it’s not coercion and is education doesn’t make it so, regardless of what you think.

 

Of course it makes so. It is when folks ignorant of the stakes and believe their prurient interests to be all that there are to things. With illuminating the gravity of the situation we can only hope to persuade others. You have still not proven how it is coercion. And remember, the onus is not on me to prove it is not coercion for we cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is always on the accuser as any court of law will tell you.

 

Did I say this? Re-read my posts and prove to me that I said non-Armenian/Armenian marriage is the ‘will of the individual’ and an Armenian/Armenian marriage is ‘forced’ and ‘coerced.’ Rather, IF this is the case, then the Armenian/Armenian union should be avoided. All I'm saying is that happiness should not be sacrificed in the name of "keeping the blood pure." That's all. Seeking out an Armenian union is great, I encourage it and think that's the way it should be as long as the union of the two people in question is "meant to be" (forgive me for using that cliche, but I could not think of a better substitute).

 

When things are implied you don't really have to say anything. As for "happiness", that is a matter of perception. In fact, we cannot even define what is happiness. Happiness, like love, is not something you just "find" or "fall into". It is all based on human action and propelled by human thought and choice. Everything is a matter of choice, and I mean everything. Even things and events that are outside of our control such as death or bad life circumstances, we still control by how we react to events.

 

No, I have not forgotten this and never will, mostly because I’ve been encouraged to think like this about Armenians since I was a young child.

I don’t quite understand, especially about biology trumping ideology – what do you mean by this?

 

What is meant by biology trumping ideology is that biology always disproves ideology. It is human biology which didn't allow for the utopian wet dreams of the Bolsheviks and Marxists to succeed, and likewise, it is biology that determines the success and failures of civilizations. As humans, all our creations, thoughts, manifestations, inventions institutional or otherwise, are a reflection of our spiritual and biological make up. Cultures reflects peoples that created that culture, not the other way around as modern multicultural society tries to inculcate into the masses.

 

Biology has stamped out many peoples from the past who have forgotten the one basic law, that blood and genes speak louder to us than any crazed ideology such as multiculturalism. All peoples from the past who have forgotten that they were a distinct people, biology stamped them out. They are extinct and so too the culture with them. There is no "Babylonian" or "Roman" culture now, because contrary to what multiculturalists, egalitarians and others believe, culture is determined by the people that create them. When they disappear so does that culture.

 

Western civilization has embraced the most dangerous idea known to man and it is cultural and racial suicide and Armenians are caught in these hallucinogenic winds which do not bode well for a litle folk such as Armenians.

 

Also, if a system of thought is part of or supports “atheistic secularism,” is it to be rejected? What alternative do you suggest?

 

Yes it is.

Edited May 4, 2006 by Anonymouse

[KGB]

KGB is for Armenians marrying Armenians with some effort from their parents or family members guiding them towards that goal but they shouldn't be coerced to the point where they marry an Armenian that they don't love is not worthed. He's not advocating odar marriage, but a healthy one if it happens between two Armenians that's even better. KGB please correct me if I got it all wrong.

Yes, you understand my basic points.

[KGB]

Of course it makes so. It is when folks ignorant of the stakes and believe their prurient interests to be all that there are to things.

So, being in love with a non-Armenian is a “prurient interest”? Is this correct?

 

You have still not proven how it is coercion. And remember, the onus is not on me to prove it is not coercion for we cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is always on the accuser as any court of law will tell you.

Here is an example: an Armenian mother threatens her son that she will never speak with him again if he marries his non-Armenian girlfriend – what do you think? I think you would probably consider the mother’s threat to be completely justified, but I’m sure the son would consider this to be coercion.

 

When things are implied you don't really have to say anything.

imply - to express indirectly

imagine - to form a mental image of something not present

 

You are creating ideas in your own mind while claiming that those ideas were created by me by indirect statement, which is false.

 

Happiness, like love, is not something you just "find" or "fall into". It is all based on human action and propelled by human thought and choice. Everything is a matter of choice, and I mean everything. Even things and events that are outside of our control such as death or bad life circumstances, we still control by how we react to events.

I agree that happiness is not something one suddenly finds or falls into. However, an unhappy Armenian/Armenian marriage is still possibile. My point is that I would prefer a happy marriage with a non-Armenian over an unhappy marriage with an Armenian – that’s all. Anything else that you are able to extract from that simple point is a product of your own imagination.

 

What is meant by biology trumping ideology is that biology always disproves ideology. It is human biology which didn't allow for the utopian wet dreams of the Bolsheviks and Marxists to succeed, and likewise, it is biology that determines the success and failures of civilizations. As humans, all our creations, thoughts, manifestations, inventions institutional or otherwise, are a reflection of our spiritual and biological make up. Cultures reflects peoples that created that culture, not the other way around as modern multicultural society tries to inculcate into the masses.

This sounds like evolution with a religious twist… pretty interesting.

 

Biology has stamped out many peoples from the past who have forgotten the one basic law, that blood and genes speak louder to us than any crazed ideology such as multiculturalism. All peoples from the past who have forgotten that they were a distinct people, biology stamped them out. They are extinct and so too the culture with them. There is no "Babylonian" or "Roman" culture now, because contrary to what multiculturalists, egalitarians and others believe, culture is determined by the people that create them. When they disappear so does that culture.

So if a culture is living amongst other cultures, if it is completely surrounded by other cultures which happen to be mixing amongst themselves, is this single culture, which refuses to submit by declining to participate in the mixing, following the basic law which you speak of?

[Anonymouse]

So, being in love with a non-Armenian is a “prurient interest”? Is this correct?

 

Unfortunately for those 'romantic' and 'passionate' peoples hopelessly dependent on the winds of love which blows them from hither and thither, when you get down to the nitty gritty, it is still a conscious choice that is made. You make a conscious choice to 'fall' in love or not.

 

Here is an example: an Armenian mother threatens her son that she will never speak with him again if he marries his non-Armenian girlfriend – what do you think? I think you would probably consider the mother’s threat to be completely justified, but I’m sure the son would consider this to be coercion.

 

That is not coercion. You clearly do not know the definition of coercion. Coercion is making someone carry something out via force. For example. Paying taxes is coercive because you have no choice. If you don't pay you face consequences such as heavy fines and prison. The mother is merely making an offer, as harsh as it may be perceived, she is not forcing him to marry an Armenian, she is merely saying what Howie Mandel says everytime, deal or no deal?

 

imply - to express indirectly

imagine - to form a mental image of something not present

 

You are creating ideas in your own mind while claiming that those ideas were created by me by indirect statement, which is false.

 

If I am creating ideas in my own head, why are you the one here defending the counter point and justifying the miscegenetion of our commonfolk with every genotype, with much passion and adamance I might add?

 

I agree that happiness is not something one suddenly finds or falls into. However, an unhappy Armenian/Armenian marriage is still possibile. My point is that I would prefer a happy marriage with a non-Armenian over an unhappy marriage with an Armenian – that’s all. Anything else that you are able to extract from that simple point is a product of your own imagination.

 

What's this silly hippie obsession with happiness? Why is that somehow better than unhappiness? If it were up to these weak and spineless humans, life would and should only consist of those "good" things, all those happy things, all the smiles, softness and supple moments of beauty and all things good and great and warm. But what about the bad, the hard, the difficult and the unhappy? Life is full of crescendos and we do not pick and choose. Everytime I thank God for my happiness and blessings, I thank him for also making me feel miserable at times, and having even been depressed at once. I thank him for the car accidents, and the shoulders dislocation after getting jumped and the deaths that I have seen. I thank him for all the troubles which pale in comparison to what some people endure. I thank him because we don't choose life, but it chooses us. The only choice we do not have is being born and dying, the rest is what we do and make and how we react to events.

 

You are in point B, which is the state of being in love with a non-Armenian. I am in point A, the state of when you make the choice to fall in that love. I have had so many opportunities in my life to let myself go, but I didn't. I made choices and I lived with them.

 

And how would you know a marriage with a non-Armenian is any less happy than with an Armenian? We don't know these silly claims. Again, you don't know, but you are using a potential future claim to justify present actions. We make our own happiness, just like we make our own luck. Humans have been given a gift, and that is free will, and the ability to make conscious decisions about everything in life. They are the only animals with an organismic consciousness as far as we can tell.

 

All these morons who go to Vegas or buy lottery tickets thinking, "Yep, I am the lucky one this time. All those other people? They don't have a chance. I feel lucky! I think I may be the one and I may finally win". If we wait for luck to kick in, we might already realize we are old and dying. A real human makes his own luck. Instead of relying on buying lottery tickets, which I equate as being a moron tax, a real human gets an education, he works hard, he saves, he invests, and he builds his wealth and stability. No different in love. We encounter many people, and we wonder, "could it be this one?" no different than the lottery ticket. But we do have choices.

 

This sounds like evolution with a religious twist… pretty interesting.

So if a culture is living amongst other cultures, if it is completely surrounded by other cultures which happen to be mixing amongst themselves, is this single culture, which refuses to submit by declining to participate in the mixing, following the basic law which you speak of?

 

First of all, peoples do not willfully mix. It is done covertly via many decades of socialization, and propaganda. The only time cultures and peoples mix directly and radically are during wars, invasions, where the losing population is raped, pillaged and violated as in many cases of antiquity. In modernity we have a strange world where none of that takes place. In modernity, everything is covert and done without the awareness of the population. Socialization, from school, to the media, and every orifice of communication, by propounding into the conscioussness of the masses, gradually molds the minds of the masses. When the mainstream society, pundits, talking heads, and every form of authority and communication tells you "we are all equal" and "diversity is our strength", people soon will begin to believe green is actually red if they hear it long enough.

 

The above is not the same as culturally borrowing. Borrowing has always existed between humans. It is usually when some egalitarian in their infinite wisdom jumps in and says: "But what about all the borrowing people have done from each other?" That is to be expected as nothing occurs in isolation. However, borrowing and being neighbors is one thing, to stamp yourself out is quite another.

 

Currently, Armenia has a very low birth rate, and a high emigration rate. It's numbers are hard to sustain. The diaspora meanwhile is mostly located in what we call 'Western civilization', also the place where this multiculturalist ideology has taken hold. Currently, Western civilization is not on a sustainable course. It's populations from Europe on, have low birthrates, high immigration rates and mixing. I read somewhere in France, that this was the first year in which the majority of births were to Muslims. Do you think this is just coincidence or is it because these Western idiots adopted an idea called multiculturalism? Ideas have consequences because ideas are put into action. Therefore, it is very important what ideas society embraces and what ideas it shuns. And what do Armenians in the diaspora do except fall prey to these mindless ideas that only serve one purpose, to destroy cultures and create nothing more than a low quality mass monoculture.

 

And to prove the idiocy and inanity of multiculturalism, the only ones to embrace this suicidal idea are Western countries. You don't see the Koreas, Japan, or China jumping in joy with these silly ideas, because they realize the one basic truth that the West forgot, it is the people who create the culture that matter, not the other way around. And moreover, east Asia also has the numbers and the growth. Armenians meanwhile lack the growth and the numbers. When these silly diasporan Armenians tell me "It's not important if Armenians don't know Armenian, so long as they are Armenian by heart" I shudder. What sort of nonsense is that? First and foremost, what defines a people and a culture is among the most important things, the language which differentiates them from their neighbors. The only reason Armenians now get away with the fact that they don't know Armenian and can feel "Armenian" is because they are a minority of Armenians. They are safe and comforted by the fact that a majority still speaks the language. If every Armenian did not speak Armenian, what would be the point in calling these people Armenian? It is because in every language, there is a distinct spirit and consciousness in all its tones and sounds and vowels and words that is only unique to itself. There are ideas and feelings and emotions expressed only in Armenian that can never carry the same potency when translated. When translated, part of that soul is lost. And this is not just true of Armenian, but every language.

 

You see KGB, it is the beautiful diversity on earth that I admire and seek to preserve. The promotion of "diversity is our strength" and mixing, stamps out diversity.

[gamavor]

I've noticed that this subject reappears vigilantly from time to time and all we have are vague discussions. Of course there is nothing wrong with dating non-Armenians. In all my conscious life I dated only one Armenian girl. She was absolutely gorgeous in terms of physical features - long red hair, beautiful blue eyes, athletic body and her behind was like a peach - pretty much like Accelerated avatar , BUT she was absolutely empty headed! Painfully stupid creature. Sorry! An uncontested proof for the truthfulness of the saying that stupidity is a privilege of beautiful women and rich men. Why I’m sharing this with you. Because, it is important to find a soul mate that will make you feel comfortable in the most broad sense of the word. Someone that would MATCH and CLICK with you. Well, the best case scenario would be if that person happens to be an Armenian, but if she is not than what matters is the degree of sensitivity that you both can nurture which ultimately would lead to a higher degree of understanding of both cultures.

[Anonymouse]

I've noticed that this subject reappears vigilantly from time to time and all we have are vague discussions. Of course there is nothing wrong with dating non-Armenians. In all my conscious life I dated only one Armenian girl. She was absolutely gorgeous in terms of physical features - long red hair, beautiful blue eyes, athletic body and her behind was like a peach - pretty much like Accelerated avatar , BUT she was absolutely empty headed! Painfully stupid creature. Sorry! An uncontested proof for the truthfulness of the saying that stupidity is a privilege of beautiful women and rich men. Why I’m sharing this with you. Because, it is important to find a soul mate that will make you feel comfortable in the most broad sense of the word. Someone that would MATCH and CLICK with you. Well, the best case scenario would be if that person happens to be an Armenian, but if she is not than what matters is the degree of sensitivity that you both can nurture which ultimately would lead to a higher degree of understanding of both cultures.

 

Imagine this possibility. Every Armenian of the diaspora all of a sudden started to date and marry non-Armenians. And the half-Armenian half-otar offspring usually tend to shift in the otar direction in terms of cultural magnetism. That exceptions to the rule somehow want to learn Armenian is simply that, marginal and exceptions. If given a century, this process would easily stamp out the diasporan Armenians.

 

The sad part is all this nonsense about Genocide approval and recognition means exactly that: nonsense. My views on this are as unorthodox and unpopular as my views on race and culture.

 

The purpose of Armenians has always been to survive and prosper and grow culturally, creatively and as a people. But it seems few Armenians actually realize what that means.

 

They think that by a few pieces of legislation and governments recognizing the genocide, all things will change. The truth is, Turkey will never recognize the Genocide, for the simple fact that no one wants to admit to such things, it's not in their national self-interest.

 

Germany would never have recognized the Holocaust had it not been the pressure and force, financially and militarily applied to them by Jews and the Allied governments which occupied Germany. Turkey was in no such situation and thus was never in any danger. The point is, that unless there is force applied, mere governments recognizing the genocide mean nothing. And even if Turkey were to recognize, what then? Do our lands come back to us, all the possessions stolen, all the lives taken and all the blood bled? Absolutely not.

 

What Armenians have forgotten is that the best and only form of recognition of the genocide first and foremost comes from us. It doesn't mean going to protests, marches and lobbying for government legislation. While all those things are good and essential, such things are abstract and on paper only and are never binding as politics is an indicator. The only way means from the simple fact of creating and continuing our culture, of learning, speaking and reading Armenian and teaching the same to our kids. It means finding and marrying an Armenian. I would much rather remain a bachelor than marry a non-Armenian and start a family like that. It amazes me how apathetic and weak the diasporan Armenians have gotten. The Turks continue to increase in numbers and the only thing the Armenian thinks of is his sushi dinner with his Asian wife or what not. And from the bromide I hear at Turkish forums of how us Armenians are assimilated and will soon die out in the diaspora, doesn't seem too far from the truth. With this defeatest and slave morality we are our first and biggest enemy. And then I hear the criticisms hurled at me of how I am 'hateful', or narrow minded, and unrealistic and how could I hold such positions when "happiness is at stake". And as the Turk had the gal to state, what Turks did not finish, Armenians will by their own hand. Woe is us. Indeed. Sometimes it makes me wonder, why do I even bother?

[gamavor]

I hear you Anon. For this reason I'm not married yet! But don't worry about diminishing numbers. Once Turks get in Europe they will be gone with the wind.

 

Furthering the Armenian culture is a noble cause. Turks can't further anything because simply they don't have culture. Their only identity is Islam which becomes incrreasingly unpopular.

[Takoush]

Anon:

 

You have a sound mind and a sound logic for the preservation of our nationality. I so wish every Armenian male and female would think and act like you.

 

Please don't despair, fortunately there are many who think like you as well, and I am one of them.

[Yervant1]

Imagine this possibility. Every Armenian of the diaspora all of a sudden started to date and marry non-Armenians. And the half-Armenian half-otar offspring usually tend to shift in the otar direction in terms of cultural magnetism. That exceptions to the rule somehow want to learn Armenian is simply that, marginal and exceptions. If given a century, this process would easily stamp out the diasporan Armenians.

Anon even though I command and congratulate your stand over this issue but you are going a little bit too much over the doom and gloom scenario. We don't live in a bubble lets be realistic and except that inter-marriage will happen unless we live behind walls and have no contact with foreigners.

Even if you force all Armenians to marry with odars, you will not be succesfull because Armenians are close knit families and their children will carry on that tradition and would want to marry Armenian. Yes some will marry an odar but we've been doing that for a long time and nothing happened and nothing will happen in the future.

Today there are more Armenian schools than before in every major cities in the world. The Armenian language is taught more than ever. We had Saturday language schools before and then came the Elementary school now lots of cities have High Schools.

Gamavor already pointed out about the understanding of cultures and not forgetting your own at the expense of others. I know some mixed marriage couples that are better prepared than your average Armenian couples, if the sense of Armenianness is strong in you, you will prevail no matter what.

Having said that I'm not saying its OK to go and marry odars and not to worry about it. We should pay attention to it and avoid as much as possible but at the same time be realistic and not allienate those who marry odars. Let us be inclusive and not exclusive and convert the odars and make them one of us.

Don't pay attention to what the Turks are saying about us. We've been here for a long time and we're going nowhere so you can relax, fall in love and enjoy life.

[Anonymouse]

Anon even though I command and congratulate your stand over this issue but you are going a little bit too much over the doom and gloom scenario. We don't live in a bubble lets be realistic and except that inter-marriage will happen unless we live behind walls and have no contact with foreigners.

 

Even if you force all Armenians to marry with odars, you will not be succesfull because Armenians are close knit families and their children will carry on that tradition and would want to marry Armenian. Yes some will marry an odar but we've been doing that for a long time and nothing happened and nothing will happen in the future.

 

Today there are more Armenian schools than before in every major cities in the world. The Armenian language is taught more than ever. We had Saturday language schools before and then came the Elementary school now lots of cities have High Schools.

 

Gamavor already pointed out about the understanding of cultures and not forgetting your own at the expense of others. I know some mixed marriage couples that are better prepared than your average Armenian couples, if the sense of Armenianness is strong in you, you will prevail no matter what.

Having said that I'm not saying its OK to go and marry odars and not to worry about it. We should pay attention to it and avoid as much as possible but at the same time be realistic and not allienate those who marry odars. Let us be inclusive and not exclusive and convert the odars and make them one of us.

Don't pay attention to what the Turks are saying about us. We've been here for a long time and we're going nowhere so you can relax, fall in love and enjoy life.

 

I always expect responses that might think I am going overboard with the 'gloom and doom'. When is the right time? When things are too late? When Armenians in a 100 years are half the size of what they are or even less, and then it will be the right time?

 

Yervant, I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. Mixing has always occurred. It has always occurred in marginal scales, as exceptions to the rule. It has always been minor and localized. In those instances where peoples were outright violated or lost their will to survive they were destroyed: when mixing became the rule. In modernity, multiculturalism has erased these distinctions: natural distinctions between man and man, between high and low and strong and weak and one culture and another. It respects neither boundaries, borders, nor peoples, nor cultures and certainly not diversity, since it wipes out diversity all the while claiming diversity. Multiculturalism is uniquely a Western craze and like I said, the Eastern world isn't interested in this gobbledygook.

 

My concern stems from the fact that the Armenian diaspora is located mostly in the Western world. And as such, they are exposed and socialized by the social ideas that are dominant, and currently the dominant ideology is a blend of egalitarianism and multiculturalism. Any hint of differences, or wanting to be with your own kind, or continue the survival of your own is seen as wicked racism. Only in the modern era can someone feel more guilty for having supposed 'racist thoughts' than when someone murders or deceives. Such is the inversion of minds that only occurs through heavy socialization and engineering of minds.

 

I have looked at projections and numbers and the numbers do not bode well for the idiot Europeans, nevermind the Americans. Europe, at least the Western European countries will be majority non-nationals in the coming century. Just walk in the streets of London or Paris and you can see the metamorphesis of civilizations in the works. Armenians are caught in these ideological brushfires. Survival is not only an option and a duty, it is natural! It is the cardinal instinct of an organic being with its own unique culture.

 

I also challenge the belief that someone who is otar, be it Asian or black, that can somehow learn the language somehow becomes 'Armenian'. People have forgotten that Armenian is not a costume you come in and out of, and I am extremely cautious to use the word 'Armenianness'. I have never heard of such a thing. Maybe it's a new slang or phenomenon, either way. I have heard of Armenians, and I have heard that some people are either Armenian or not. Now, whether they are Armenian but are self-hating Armenians, or choose not to participate in Armenian culture, or do not speak the language, they are still Armenian.

 

The reason I bring this up, is because this is critical to the continued growth of Armenians. If you believe that a million Asians or blacks can marry with Armenians and become Armenians, that right there is the recipe for suicide. If 3 million Asians were to replace Armenians, what would be the point in that? Is the sky any less blue if we called it brown?

 

When you go to Japan, they have a very unique idea about themselves as Japanese. The Japanese people likewise have a strong idea and sense of nationhood and ethnic identity. They do not believe someone can become Japanese simply by learning the language, or by wearing a kimono or eating sushi. No. It is rooted in the blood and culture, and that is what makes Japan, Japanese.

 

I always bring this story up because it is very interesting and gives an idea of how strong the urge and surge for survival is among the Japanese as one example. After World War II, many Japanese women had been impregnated by black American GIs. Japan, which was racially and culturally homogenous did not want to accept an alien gene into its pool. Thus, it took those mothers and their babies and shipped them off to Brazil. Now, if any Western country did that, god knows what sort of hell would be risen from every accusation of racism you can think of. But this isn't limited to Japan, and most of East Asia is culturally and racially homogenous, and which is why now, we see the balance of power and the tides of history shifting toward the East.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Anonymouse

[KGB]

That is not coercion. You clearly do not know the definition of coercion. Coercion is making someone carry something out via force. For example. Paying taxes is coercive because you have no choice. If you don't pay you face consequences such as heavy fines and prison. The mother is merely making an offer, as harsh as it may be perceived, she is not forcing him to marry an Armenian, she is merely saying what Howie Mandel says everytime, deal or no deal?

No deal because you either 1. don't know the definition of coerce or 2. are sticking to a single, rigid definition of coerce and deeming that definition to be the only one applicable to this argument, which means you must consider yourself to be an online despot. Anyway, to clear up this petty argument about the definition of a word, please check the link below. Read the second defintion of coerce and then dare to continue your argument about the meaning(s) of the word. I will respond to the rest of what you wrote later:

 

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/coerce

Edited May 5, 2006 by KGB

[Yervant1]

Anon after reading your last post I don't know what to say. Good luck to you and your beautifull ideas, because I have nothing more to say to you.

[Anonymouse]

No deal because you either 1. don't know the definition of coerce or 2. are sticking to a single, rigid definition of coerce and deeming that definition to be the only one applicable to this argument, which means you must consider yourself to be an online despot. Anyway, to clear up this petty argument about the definition of a word, please check the link below. Read the second defintion of coerce and then dare to continue your argument about the meaning(s) of the word. I will respond to the rest of what you wrote later:

 

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/coerce

 

Coercion implies force, and no choice. The definition number 2 which you chose is extremely vague. To compel to an act or choice, can very well mean that one is compelled to do a certain thing against their will.

 

Getting bogged down on definitions is pointless and posting a link to Merriam Webster actually helps illuminate my point which is coercion is an act of force against someones will. When there is choice, it is not coercion, do you understand that? The mother demanding that her son marry an Armenian, while you may see it as harsh, is not coercive at all. The son does not have to listen to the mother and can do what he pleases. My example of taxation is an example of coercion because there is no choice in the matter. The key word is choice. Definitions 1 and 2 also clarify my point which is clearly why you are avoiding them.

 

If this is your attempt at trying to justify dating non-Armenians, it is horribly weak and you are trying way too hard to make the definition of coercion elastic without having demonstrated how a mother wanting his son to marry an Armenian is coercive. You can believe in it all you want, but that doesn't make it so. You will find that you have alot in common with Agent Mulder since you both want to believe.

[KGB]

You are a fanatic. It seems your religion is Christianity mixed with a heavy dose of Armenian racism. All I can say is don't ever stray far from the Armenian community because you will find yourself all alone, especially if you decide to attend a church that is not located anywhere near an Armenian community. The church you attend will be full of people who, like you, also consider themselves to be "true disciples of Christ," except that they won't know what an Armenian is and won't even make an effort to find Armenia on a map.

 

Dealing with you is a waste of time because you will not budge one inch from your present position, regardless of what your opponents say. Have a nice life...

[transcender]

My friends,

 

I am thankful to be here with the Armenian intelligentsia. Now matter what, intellectuals find a way to get together and discuss issues. And we have many interesting issues to discuss.

 

I for one am a fond advocate of Armenians marrying Armenians, for a number of reasons. However, the most successful has been my "museum" analogy.

 

As the curators of the world museum, we must take it unto ourselves to preserve the Armenian section.

 

I can not single out learning Armenian as being the key to being Armenian; I feel that the Armenian identity is much more than that.

 

Arguing this on theoretical grounds seems almost pointless to me because it has so much emotion involved in it.

 

Theoretically, genetic diversity is probably the best way to go. But again, theoretically, we should have X amount of exercise a day, and a balanced diet, etc. - because that is probably best for us as individuals.

 

But, fortunately or unfortunately, we have emotion weaved into all of this. We for some reason CARE about the preservation of artifacts, and I want to take that and say that we should care about the preservation of Armenians.

 

I feel that the easiest and most reliable, as well as efficient way of doing this is marrying an Armenian. It has been time-tested.

 

Now, how can we find good Armenians, compatible Armenians? There are 7-8 million of us, and you are trying to tell me that it's impossible to find an Armenian that is compatible with you? If you care, TRY HARDER, go the extra mile to find him/her, because the payoff is securing our national identity for at least another generation.

 

I hope that we can leverage the power of the internet to bring Armenians closer together. Social networking programs (myspace, etc.) are doing a better job of this as the years progress. Relax my friends, Web 2.0 will ensure that we have very efficient social networking programs within the next few years - connecting you with people that you would have never been able to meet. I am sure that will help you connect with Armenians who are like you.

 

Next, I'd like to have you think about "happiness" in marriage. No matter who you marry, you will probably not be happy. Most of you are going to go through a divorce, or will want to break it off, but will not be able to. Your sex life will drop after you have your first-born.

 

Finally, it is doubtful that humans are monogamous creatures (very few animals are, though I think mammals tend to have a higher chance of being monogamous).

 

Conclusion: if we were to argue theoretically, I would say go and have offspring with as many people as you can (girls choose the alphas, males don't choose, just let loose your seed) to increase the genetic diversity of the world. Make sure you eat a balanced diet and get your daily exercise to maximize your lifespan. Emotionally, we can say that we attribute value to having interactions with Armenians (why are we not on OneCulture Forum.com?) as well as having an Armenian homeland. To preserve that, I feel that we must continue investing in what has kept us this way - inter-marriage as well as Armenian communities.

 

I just typed this out - I am very open to discussion, as a matter of fact, I need your help to help me make my argument stronger.

 

Warmest regards to all.

[Takoush]

I totally agree with you Anon. Coercion is when a person doesn't have a choice. When a father or a mother suggests or even encourages for his son or daughter to attend Armenian get-to-gethers and balls "barahantes"s doesn't mean they are coercing. It simply means that they are heartily encouraging.

 

In the Armenian pleateau, boys and girls; who may I ask they have met, FELL IN LOVE WITH!!!!! and marry!!!!! ARMENIANS, right? So KGB or others; you are giving us nonsense. How come our ansestors for a thousand and plus years, looked at each other, fell in love with each other (REALLY FELL IN LOVE), and then marry each other so that you and me were born. For years Armenians inter-married with each other and passed on the generation from one to the other. Suddenly now we may or may not fall in love amongst ourselves or with one another? What kind of nonsense talk is this? Illogical, unrealistic and plain nonsense.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

I've noticed that this subject reappears vigilantly from time to time and all we have are vague discussions. Of course there is nothing wrong with dating non-Armenians. In all my conscious life I dated only one Armenian girl. She was absolutely gorgeous in terms of physical features - long red hair, beautiful blue eyes, athletic body and her behind was like a peach - pretty much like Accelerated avatar , BUT she was absolutely empty headed! Painfully stupid creature. Sorry!An uncontested proof for the truthfulness of the saying that stupidity is a privilege of beautiful women and rich men. Why I’m sharing this with you. Because, it is important to find a soul mate that will make you feel comfortable in the most broad sense of the word. Someone that would MATCH and CLICK with you. Well, the best case scenario would be if that person happens to be an Armenian,but if she is not than what matters is the degree of sensitivity that you both can nurture which ultimately would lead to a higher degree of understanding of both cultures.

Gams:

 

I understand what you went through and how you were let down by this beautiful gorgeous creature who happened to be an Armenian woman; but lets face it, I know...I know....I have also generalized in the past, and I made my mistakes by generalizations; but please try not to generalize or keep on thinking that most or almost all beautiful women are dum, stupid, idiots without a character; because you happened to meet one woman like that or even 10 of them. And yes although Donald Trump is an idiot rich man; and his character is much less to be desired; but again, that doesn't mean that all rich men are idiots or have less of a character. That would be unfair statements and generalizations.

 

Coming to the topic of trying to find an Armenian spouse, in my opinion; every Armenian in the Diaspora should consider it very very seriously and making an exerted greatest effort to try and find an Armenian spouse. Yes, we can say the best case scenario; but each and every one of us should make that best case scenario to be a real scenario and have that strong spirit within us to make it happen! Remember, everyone of us can make it happen if we strongly believe in it and have that will to do it!!!