DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) You'll have to ask God yourself. It should be either one or the other. Either god has chosen randomnly, either right and wrong already existed and that he hasn't invented it..., which will also mean that did not creat everything. Edited December 3, 2005 by QueBeceR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 It should be either one or the other. Either god has chosen randomnly, either right and wrong already existed and that he hasn't invented it..., which will also mean that did not creat everything. I don't see the point in you knowing such a fact. Everything good comes from God. He was the one who established right from wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 I don't see the point in you knowing such a fact. Everything good comes from God. He was the one who established right from wrong. That's the thing. You provide choice one, but still you haven't raised my critic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 That's the thing. You provide choice one, but still you haven't raised my critic. You want to know if right/wrong existed before God. I gave you my answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Let me understand correctly. What was right and wrong were chosen randomnly. Had god chosen that killing would be right, it would have been right? Suppose that he had chosen it as right, would you accept then killing being right? My answer was this, but you have not answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 My answer was this, but you have not answered. It wouldn't happen. I don't know about you, but I don't like to get stuck in "what if". It is just a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Eloren, did I say I am denying Darwin's theory? Nope. Animal kingdom evolved as said in Darwin's evolution theory, more or less, but our ancestors did not. The original human beings (not our species) were created by divine act, to be on the top of the evolutionary chain. Those species are symbolically depicted as Adam and Eve in the Bible - species who could talk to and listen to God, and do pretty much the same things as God can (hence the allegory of living in a paradise, a place where life is easy and pleasant, without pain and suffering. That is, species who are like that on the earth that we know with more abilities than we have). The story of Adam and Eve is purely symbolical. So these divine species were an acceleration of the evolutionary processes. Then, those species did not live up to the standard giving in to sensual pleasures, which grew to become sexual pleasures and reproduction. Thus they rolled back to where we presently are on Darwin's evolutionary chain thus annuling original divine acceleration. But we are evolving, the evolution is continuing slowly. This is the most trustworthy explanationn that I have ever known, and believe it to be true. As you read the Genesis with this story it makes a lot of sense. There the tree of life is not an apple tree, it is actually a symbolism of our neural system upside down, where the "fruit" or "apple" in the center refers to sexual senses. Well.. this is the most trustworthy explanation for you maybe.. but I find it more like a fairy tale What about all the discoveries on human evolution. Ok your are talking about animals, but what about human evolution proven by science, discoveries and solid proofs? The prehistoric men? Or maybe you do not consider them as "humans"? If i understand well.. we were like gods but we became animals because of sexual pleasure.. @Sseb: You are often telling us that we don't seek anything in our lives. But since the beginning, i realize that you are the one not trying to seek, or find answers. For you it's like that! Period. If i want to know the real truth, I at the same time try to look for answers, i also try to question my beliefs, to really see if there are flaws. If i find answers and no flaws, then my faith will be stronger and no one will be able to change it. A lot of people don't even question themselves and their beliefs. "What if's" are essential for our world to go forth.. What if the earth was round instead of being flat?... It turned out to be true You say we are sinners.. You say God created us from his own image.. You say God gave us free will... So, if we put all this together.. God has free will, and is not perfect because He also can do Evil.. So god is imperfect? Ok, you're right, I'm wrong. I was a fool to think God loves us If God really loves us, he wouldn't torture us living a miserable life on an imperfect planet. To gain his love we must pass a test our whole life? What is the point? I have the Bible and the Spirit of God inside me, that's my basis. I have my Science books, I have my Free will, my spirit, my brain and my questions inside me.. Now on which basis does a christian's theory makes it better than mine? Except for the "It's like that, you cannot understand" By the way, I am not an atheist, I had a good christian education, but I don't like to be narrow minded and I like to question things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 You mean, skip pain and have only happiness on earth? I mean skip this whole test-living on Earth thing (OK, that's not very intelligible, but I am tired) Another point is, if God makes it possible for such a great suffering to exist, then He also gives one the possibility to overcome them. Nobody likes to suffer, but overcoming sufferings with your own efforts could be supremely thrilling for us human beings. Whereas God intervining at every occassion and solving our problems could be boring and humiliating to human nature. Once we realize that we can take life as a very entertaining game. That's a great point if it applies to such difficulties as studying for the finals But we are talking about real human tragedies, and why some people cruise through life without ever experiencing any suffering, and why some people suffer throughout their lives. And what's disconcerning, insulting even, is seeing some of the people who've never known any pain treating others horribly by cheating and using them to personally gain in their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) It should be either one or the other. Either god has chosen randomnly, either right and wrong already existed and that he hasn't invented it..., which will also mean that did not creat everything. Let's say second choice. I'm interested to know your opinion Edited December 3, 2005 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Well.. this is the most trustworthy explanation for you maybe.. but I find it more like a fairy tale What about all the discoveries on human evolution. Ok your are talking about animals, but what about human evolution proven by science, discoveries and solid proofs? The prehistoric men? Or maybe you do not consider them as "humans"? If i understand well.. we were like gods but we became animals because of sexual pleasure.. @Sseb: You are often telling us that we don't seek anything in our lives. But since the beginning, i realize that you are the one not trying to seek, or find answers. For you it's like that! Period. If i want to know the real truth, I at the same time try to look for answers, i also try to question my beliefs, to really see if there are flaws. If i find answers and no flaws, then my faith will be stronger and no one will be able to change it. A lot of people don't even question themselves and their beliefs. "What if's" are essential for our world to go forth.. What if the earth was round instead of being flat?... It turned out to be true You say we are sinners.. You say God created us from his own image.. You say God gave us free will... So, if we put all this together.. God has free will, and is not perfect because He also can do Evil.. So god is imperfect? If God really loves us, he wouldn't torture us living a miserable life on an imperfect planet. To gain his love we must pass a test our whole life? What is the point? I have my Science books, I have my Free will, my spirit, my brain and my questions inside me.. Now on which basis does a christian's theory makes it better than mine? Except for the "It's like that, you cannot understand" By the way, I am not an atheist, I had a good christian education, but I don't like to be narrow minded and I like to question things. I have questioned my beliefs a lot. But to be honest, I feel right from wrong, it's not a saying or writing or book that proves a religion correct. Science only has books and theories. The statement >"You say we are sinners.. You say God created us from his own image.. You say God gave us free will"< whoa, hold on a second. You've rearranged the order buddy. God created us from his own image and then we became sinners. And who is having a miserable life here? You? As much as we'd like, there won't be such thing as a perfect planet with perfect people that have perfect lives. Enough blaming God for that. It's reality. You have already gained his love, Jesus died on the cross for that. By the way, I'm not narrow minded, and I also like to question things. But I'm guessing you were a good Christian until a few questions were thrown your way about Christianity, which you could not answer and saw it as a flaw in the religion and decided to leave. I'm sure it's the very same questions you are asking me now that led you astray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 As the famous saying goes, "Dear God, please save me from Your followers." Now does anyone have anything more to say about Buddah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) As the famous saying goes, "Dear God, please save me from Your followers." Now does anyone have anything more to say about Buddah? famous... Edited December 3, 2005 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) As the famous saying goes, "Dear God, please save me from Your followers." Now does anyone have anything more to say about Buddah? Edited December 3, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) sSebB, do you sleep with your front door open? Drive without seat belts? you are such a good christina that god will protect you from bad things. by the way i thought how god was teaching people of south east asia how to swim by sending the tsunami there was not too inteligent. WHAT? God did not do that? Now i'm confused... Are you saying God doesn't run this planet? Edited December 3, 2005 by Azat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 sSebB, do you sleep with your front door open? Drive without seat belts? you are such a good christina that god will protect you from bad things. by the way i thought how god was teaching people of south east asia how to swim by sending the tsunami there was not too inteligent. WHAT? God did not do that? Now i'm confused... Are you saying God doesn't run this planet? You didn't get it Azat... The planet has Free Will ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 It wouldn't happen. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Let's say second choice. I'm interested to know your opinion You mean, mine or his? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Well.. this is the most trustworthy explanation for you maybe.. but I find it more like a fairy tale What about all the discoveries on human evolution. Ok your are talking about animals, but what about human evolution proven by science, discoveries and solid proofs? The prehistoric men? Or maybe you do not consider them as "humans"? If i understand well.. we were like gods but we became animals because of sexual pleasure.. The evolution theory has not been able to explain how such a high degree of intelligence evolved. Intelligence needed for survival of our species is much less than we have. For example, man can survive with or without abstract thinking, with or without astronomy, deep scientific knowledge, etc. Not to speak about morality, human morality simply contradicts the evolutionary dynamics. Now until you can explain all of these by Darwin's evolution theory you can't really deny other theories such as the one I am talking about. I am saying, there is something significantly different about us humans. If you have not noticed then you have missed a great deal. Evolution is also one of the laws created by God. Once again, I am not denying the evolution itself, I am saying we originally were lifted much higher than what we are now. The gap between original Adam and Eve people and us humans was much bigger than between us and any other species. I don't have any proof of the higher beings that existed before, but you can't deny that us humans are simply incomparable to any other species in terms of intelligence, morality, spirituality, etc. This must be a hint of a different origin than amimals. As to fairy tales, yeah, fine, for you it is a fairy tale. Perphaps quantum mechanics also would sound a fairy tale if you were told about it for the first time by someone on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 I mean skip this whole test-living on Earth thing (OK, that's not very intelligible, but I am tired) That's a great point if it applies to such difficulties as studying for the finals But we are talking about real human tragedies, and why some people cruise through life without ever experiencing any suffering, and why some people suffer throughout their lives. And what's disconcerning, insulting even, is seeing some of the people who've never known any pain treating others horribly by cheating and using them to personally gain in their life. Yes Anoushik, I am also talking about real human tragedies. What I have learned to be the truth about human tragedies is there are four main reasons of tragedies: 1) Unwise acts and habits. E.g. you smoke for 20 years and end up with lung cancer. Please don't blame God for your lack of proper hygiene 2) Past karma, by the principle of cause and effect, sins done in previous and this life accumulate bad karma and expire on you as tragedies or bad luck. Blame noone but yourself for your acts out of free will 3) Lack of divine protection: even though you have not done any evil in this or previous lives, if you don't have divine protection you can be hit by evil forces roaming around the universe searching for prey. One could say then it is unfair. But not really, you have a choice of using divine protection which is available to you 24 hours a day by simply accepting in your mind in your day to day life. Failing to do that you have denied yourself of a very powerful protection, and even though you have no fault that evil forces have found you, your fault is the lack of common sense wisdom to use your God given protection to which you always deserve 4) Association with bad company. Again, you can be perfect in all points above but be foolish to hang out with people who have bad habits. Their karmic effects will also hurt you since you are perhaps riding with them in the same car. Don't blame anyone but yourself since you were foolish enough to hang out with bad people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 You see God very differently than Sasun. Sasun does not dismiss the notion of multi-theism for one. He also does not claim Christianity is the one and only Truth. But before I drag myself too much into this comparison, I'll shut up now and stop talking for Sasun since I admittedly don't understand much of what he claims either. But even though I don't really understand what he says since apparently I don't have the necessary spiritual eye and insights he has, I am sure what you keep saying is wrong and has no real basis other than just dogma. I think Seb and I have some things in common and some things quite different. What we have in common is we both find that Bible has the Truth. But we also have differences. Perpaps some other time we can compare, however, I do respect Seb's sincere attitude and whatever beliefs he chooses to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) I think Seb and I have some things in common and some things quite different. What we have in common is we both find that Bible has the Truth. But we also have differences. Perpaps some other time we can compare, however, I do respect Seb's sincere attitude and whatever beliefs he chooses to have. Likewise. Edited December 3, 2005 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Yes Anoushik, I am also talking about real human tragedies. What I have learned to be the truth about human tragedies is there are four main reasons of tragedies: 1) Unwise acts and habits. E.g. you smoke for 20 years and end up with lung cancer. Please don't blame God for your lack of proper hygiene 2) Past karma, by the principle of cause and effect, sins done in previous and this life accumulate bad karma and expire on you as tragedies or bad luck. Blame noone but yourself for your acts out of free will 3) Lack of divine protection: even though you have not done any evil in this or previous lives, if you don't have divine protection you can be hit by evil forces roaming around the universe searching for prey. One could say then it is unfair. But not really, you have a choice of using divine protection which is available to you 24 hours a day by simply accepting in your mind in your day to day life. Failing to do that you have denied yourself of a very powerful protection, and even though you have no fault that evil forces have found you, your fault is the lack of common sense wisdom to use your God given protection to which you always deserve 4) Association with bad company. Again, you can be perfect in all points above but be foolish to hang out with people who have bad habits. Their karmic effects will also hurt you since you are perhaps riding with them in the same car. Don't blame anyone but yourself since you were foolish enough to hang out with bad people. Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 It's amazing how people could accuse sick people of being somehow responsible of their own condition. The Karma hypothesis is simply illogical, and if true would make a god as a Devil. Making someone pay for something that he/she doesn't even remember of is simply unjust, unethical and immoral. 2 and 3 are simple nonesense crap. Oh yeh, I am not spiritualy wise enough, I forgot. Yes Anoushik, I am also talking about real human tragedies. What I have learned to be the truth about human tragedies is there are four main reasons of tragedies: 1) Unwise acts and habits. E.g. you smoke for 20 years and end up with lung cancer. Please don't blame God for your lack of proper hygiene 2) Past karma, by the principle of cause and effect, sins done in previous and this life accumulate bad karma and expire on you as tragedies or bad luck. Blame noone but yourself for your acts out of free will 3) Lack of divine protection: even though you have not done any evil in this or previous lives, if you don't have divine protection you can be hit by evil forces roaming around the universe searching for prey. One could say then it is unfair. But not really, you have a choice of using divine protection which is available to you 24 hours a day by simply accepting in your mind in your day to day life. Failing to do that you have denied yourself of a very powerful protection, and even though you have no fault that evil forces have found you, your fault is the lack of common sense wisdom to use your God given protection to which you always deserve 4) Association with bad company. Again, you can be perfect in all points above but be foolish to hang out with people who have bad habits. Their karmic effects will also hurt you since you are perhaps riding with them in the same car. Don't blame anyone but yourself since you were foolish enough to hang out with bad people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) It's amazing how people could accuse sick people of being somehow responsible of their own condition. The Karma hypothesis is simply illogical, and if true would make a god as a Devil. Making someone pay for something that he/she doesn't even remember of is simply unjust, unethical and immoral. 2 and 3 are simple nonesense crap. Oh yeh, I am not spiritualy wise enough, I forgot. Karma simply means "what goes around, comes around". If you do bad, don't be surprised if good things don't come your way. I think 3 is a great point Edited December 3, 2005 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 BS. There is explaination, and there is explaination. There is why and there is how. Why is a human, or evolved species concept, there isen't any universal why of things. Natural selection is yet the best explaination we have to explain what we observe in that that it is just more than a theory. There are some problems with it, like the fact that applying it, it will take over 20 stades of transfers of some proteins or how replication switch(on of switch during DNA replications to creat specialized cells from unspecialized cells) should have been favored,... but new flavors of neo-darwinism, coupled with theories vehiculated about universal natural selection which applies to universes, like those proposed by Dr. Kai Woehler, or Lee Smolin’s theory of Cosmological natural selection, kills the critics. Conservative physicians are now the enemies of science, since they're afraid to accept such "magical" concepts, but yet because of their slowesness to accept them, idiocies like Karma, or creationist theories can still use the problems with natural selection to justify their own hypothesis, when it is known that introducing the new notions won't be really new stuff and will give science more power to answer them back. The evolution theory has not been able to explain how such a high degree of intelligence evolved. Intelligence needed for survival of our species is much less than we have. For example, man can survive with or without abstract thinking, with or without astronomy, deep scientific knowledge, etc. Not to speak about morality, human morality simply contradicts the evolutionary dynamics. Now until you can explain all of these by Darwin's evolution theory you can't really deny other theories such as the one I am talking about. I am saying, there is something significantly different about us humans. If you have not noticed then you have missed a great deal. Evolution is also one of the laws created by God. Once again, I am not denying the evolution itself, I am saying we originally were lifted much higher than what we are now. The gap between original Adam and Eve people and us humans was much bigger than between us and any other species. I don't have any proof of the higher beings that existed before, but you can't deny that us humans are simply incomparable to any other species in terms of intelligence, morality, spirituality, etc. This must be a hint of a different origin than amimals. As to fairy tales, yeah, fine, for you it is a fairy tale. Perphaps quantum mechanics also would sound a fairy tale if you were told about it for the first time by someone on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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