Eloren Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Anoushik, originally we were created in the image of God. We used to be capable of reproducing without sex, in a divine way, by sheer will power, exacly as God creates. However, we gave in to temptations and sensual pleasures, and lost our divine ability, devoloped sex organs, and found ourselves in the evolutionary chain of animal kingdom reproducing and behaving like animals. But we still have the potential of recovering our divine image and freeing ourselves from animial kingdom. The only way to do is spiritual practice and God-contact. So Darwin was a fool... You are denying a whole part of scientific discoveries about the evolution of mankind are you? The prehistoric men are just a story made by the CIA to control us? Or maybe we were "god-like" men even before that, but when Adam and Eve sinned, we became as ugly as monkeys? Come on Sasun, how can you deny scientific proofs and believe only what is written in a Book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) So Darwin was a fool... You are denying a whole part of scientific discoveries about the evolution of mankind are you? The prehistoric men are just a story made by the CIA to control us? Or maybe we were "god-like" men even before that, but when Adam and Eve sinned, we became as ugly as monkeys? Come on Sasun, how can you deny scientific proofs and believe only what is written in a Book... Eloren, did I say I am denying Darwin's theory? Nope. Animal kingdom evolved as said in Darwin's evolution theory, more or less, but our ancestors did not. The original human beings (not our species) were created by divine act, to be on the top of the evolutionary chain. Those species are symbolically depicted as Adam and Eve in the Bible - species who could talk to and listen to God, and do pretty much the same things as God can (hence the allegory of living in a paradise, a place where life is easy and pleasant, without pain and suffering. That is, species who are like that on the earth that we know with more abilities than we have). The story of Adam and Eve is purely symbolical. So these divine species were an acceleration of the evolutionary processes. Then, those species did not live up to the standard giving in to sensual pleasures, which grew to become sexual pleasures and reproduction. Thus they rolled back to where we presently are on Darwin's evolutionary chain thus annuling original divine acceleration. But we are evolving, the evolution is continuing slowly. This is the most trustworthy explanationn that I have ever known, and believe it to be true. As you read the Genesis with this story it makes a lot of sense. There the tree of life is not an apple tree, it is actually a symbolism of our neural system upside down, where the "fruit" or "apple" in the center refers to sexual senses. Edited December 2, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) I appologize for the length of this post but I think it must be done to put my point in perspective. Sasun, this post defines exactly the context of my posts. I am not talking about the general concept of God and spirituality and religion. My posts are confined to this context: But that is not the point. The point is there are so many insights about God, not primitive such as those expressed in this forum. Apparently you have not enough interest in this subject, and naturally you don't know. However, you chose to limit the possible explanations of God to just what you think are the only possible explanations told to you. And that is what I find an arrogant way of saying. I am not saying you are an arrogant person, but your statements are IMO. Also, a statement such "there is something fishy about God" is quite arrogant, which assumes you know a lot of things to conclude that. Sasun, once again, I am addressing sSebB's version of God. I am well aware that your notions of God and religion are very different. As a summary, here are a few things he has said just in this thrad alone: "I'd rather die than be an atheist. What the hell are you on earth for?" "I pity you. I guess you believe in the creation of earth and man was by a 'big bang'. I say ur brainwashed." "I laugh at the Big Bang, not at the people." "You're stating that I should believe in both Jesus and the Big Bang? No, you cannot believe in both. There is a universe, galaxies, planets, etc. but only God made it." "My purpose is between me and God. There is no 'blind' following going on here. It's called faith." "Only after you give your life to Christ will you realise what I'm talking about. I once lived the life you live, but I know I won't ever return to it; that is my choice." "Free will is not something you gave yourself. God gave it to you." "Can you prove there's no God? There is great proof that there is a God, both physically and spiritually." "God only appears to those who believe in him." "Well there's a lot of facts proving Christianity is the one true religion, but it's not something I have to prove." "And it's mainly Islam that is forced on people, not Christianity." "& the whole "multiple Gods" thing would not make sense to me." Sasun, you still think I am the arrogant one here? "The term you used, 'this world is far from being good'; do you believe that this is God's choice? I have two words for you. Free will. It is up us to change the world. You want God to do all the work? He put you on this earth to spread the good news, to stop such evil. Those who lie, steal, cheat, kill, destroy, and plan evil have something in common. They are without religion. They seek pleasure without seeing the damage it can do. They think only of themselves, and think of how they can make their lives better, increasing posessions while decreasing their values. The world you speak of is not the world full of God's people." God put us on this earth "to spread the good news and stop evil". And this makes more sense than Big Bang? I'd say even this makes more sense than that. I know we have had a number of discussions before as well on the "stupidity" in this ineherent assumption that anyone who doesn't believe in God is necessarily evil. "Who are the slaves here? We love worshipping/praising/thanking/talking about God because of what he has done for us. We love him because he loved us first. After all, we are his creation, and he made us in his own image." "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air..." "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."" God made us in HIS image and told us to go rule over every living creature? Am I the arrogant one here? Me? Really? "He CAN keep people from doing evil, but like I've said for the um-teenth time, we are given free will to make our own choices." "The majority of the world is in poverty for a reason." A couple of more "evidences" why I call this particular God a sadistic, evil God who likes to sit back and watch suffering and then has the audacity to pass judgement. Edited December 2, 2005 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Sip, I appreciate your effort to clarify things. But let's see if Seb agrees to your interpretations of what his posts mean. I am sure he will say that the God he was trying to portray is not what you understood from his posts. Oh, BTW, if I created something and ruled over, or gave rulership of that to anyone that would not be arrogant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Anoushik, originally we were created in the image of God. We used to be capable of reproducing without sex, in a divine way, by sheer will power, exacly as God creates. However, we gave in to temptations and sensual pleasures, and lost our divine ability, devoloped sex organs, and found ourselves in the evolutionary chain of animal kingdom reproducing and behaving like animals. But we still have the potential of recovering our divine image and freeing ourselves from animial kingdom. The only way to do is spiritual practice and God-contact. I don't get it, why did you and sSebB completely miss my point? I see nothing wrong with sex and reproduction. My argument was that there are too many people on this Earth and most of them live in horrible conditions. When people have to struggle on a daily basis to find something to eat and someplace to sleep, that's all they will do. There is no room for creativity, or no room to stop and think about our world (or worship God, for that matter). We are thinking beings, that's what differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. But, again, one can't be much productive and creative if one is struggling to survive every single day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) The food chain is the way of life for animals, evil has nothing to do with it. All of a sudden the whole American/Iraq war is your basis of the non-existence of God? You will always find a reason to believe there is no God. There's no point in me continuing this arguement with you. It is evil, when you know that animals are experiencing pain when they are eaten by other animals. And when did I say that the whole American/Iraq war is my basis of the non-existence of God? Edited December 2, 2005 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) I don't get it, why did you and sSebB completely miss my point? I see nothing wrong with sex and reproduction. My argument was that there are too many people on this Earth and most of them live in horrible conditions. When people have to struggle on a daily basis to find something to eat and someplace to sleep, that's all they will do. There is no room for creativity, or no room to stop and think about our world (or worship God, for that matter). We are thinking beings, that's what differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. But, again, one can't be much productive and creative if one is struggling to survive every single day. Sorry Anoushik, I misunderstood your question. Somehow I thought your were saying there must be better ways of reproduction. OK, on your question: Your point would be very valid if we were only perishable flesh and bone. But we are not, our bodies die, soul is immortal and imperishable. Bodily life is only one episode in an infinite series of lives in different forms. Therefore, don't give undue importance to suffering and death in one episode, nor to ordinary short-lived pleasure and happiness, but live in the Spirit and everything will have a different meaning. In other words, seek the Kindgom of God first, and the rest of your needs and worries will take care of themselves. This is a very important message to you, myself and everyone else. We don't think the right way and therefore suffer instead of enjoying and entertaining, from the same exact life, but with the wrong thinking. Edited December 2, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 BTW, Kingdom of God in my understanding is not exactly the heaven after death, it is a state that we potentially can attain in our present life. In other words, a state of Nirvana (I am glad at least this word is on topic). This is completelely different from how a typical church interprets Jesus' words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Sorry Anoushik, I misunderstood your question. Somehow I thought your were saying there must be better ways of reproduction. Nope, no objections there OK, on your question: Your point would be very valid if we were only perishable flesh and bone. But we are not, our bodies die, soul is immortal and imperishable. Bodily life is only one episode in an infinite serise of lives in different forms. Therefore, don't give undue importance to suffering and death in one episode If it's not important, then why not skip that phase Sasun? My life is important to me. The pain that I feel, both physical and mental, is real to me. But I know that I am very lucky because so far I haven't had real challenges in life. But other people are not so lucky. Imagine living in pain every single minute for the rest of your life, as some people do who have chronic pain due to illness. I think their pain is very horrible and very real to them. Imagine seeing your child suffer in pain and knowing that there is nothing you can do to relieve his pain. That's something I hope to never experience. But I'm sure that the pain and suffering that the child's parent experiences is very real to him or her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 If it's not important, then why not skip that phase Sasun? You mean, skip pain and have only happiness on earth? My life is important to me. The pain that I feel, both physical and mental, is real to me. But I know that I am very lucky because so far I haven't had real challenges in life. But other people are not so lucky. Imagine living in pain every single minute for the rest of your life, as some people do who have chronic pain due to illness. I think their pain is very horrible and very real to them. Imagine seeing your child suffer in pain and knowing that there is nothing you can do to relieve his pain. That's something I hope to never experience. But I'm sure that the pain and suffering that the child's parent experiences is very real to him or her. I completely agree, and I am not happy about the sufferings of the world. Then again, if you knew that this life is not the only life you have, and that you have numerous other occassions where you can have a better live, then would you agree that current pain and suffering is not ultimate and as such it should not be accepted as seriously? Another point is, if God makes it possible for such a great suffering to exist, then He also gives one the possibility to overcome them. Nobody likes to suffer, but overcoming sufferings with your own efforts could be supremely thrilling for us human beings. Whereas God intervining at every occassion and solving our problems could be boring and humiliating to human nature. Once we realize that we can take life as a very entertaining game. If we could only realize and always remember that we are not the body, our body is like a garment, no matter what happens you never die in reality We have put up some body and mind costumes to play certain roles in a play called the Cosmic Play brilliantly led by God. So cheer up and play your game well no matter what role have you taken up in this lifetime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Oh, Sip, how arrogant you sound here. Indeed, so the creator of the universe, of which the cumulative human knowledge has not even discovered is tiny little bit, is idiotic? So then you must be smarter than God I guess? How about neither one of your primitive assumptions is correct? Why not admit that you don't understand God rather than belittle God? Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Sasun, for the record, I am belittleing the idiotic God put forth by SsebB. The same God that can't spread his own words and we have to do it for him. The same God that is going to judge us for things he can't (limited) or won't (sadistic) keep us from doing. The same LIMITED, yes that right, I said LIMITED, helpless God that created an imperfect world with imperfect people in his own imperfect image. Do I really sound arrogant here or is there really something fishy about that particular God? I am absolutely convinced it's the latter and if that makes me sound arrogant, so be it. Dear Sasun, some notions are just downright stupid and this one is one of them. Just because it is disguised under the label of "God", does not make it any more valid. I have not made any assumptions about this particular God. I am just going by what I am being told about Him. So I think your gripe is with those assumptions and not mine. And if you are only going to tell me there is puprose behind all this madness that I couldn't possibly understand this particular God, then I say that's just a very weak and convenient argument, isn't it? Provided Sasun is also an Armenian Apostolic, then we have the same God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 I appologize for the length of this post but I think it must be done to put my point in perspective. Sasun, this post defines exactly the context of my posts. I am not talking about the general concept of God and spirituality and religion. My posts are confined to this context: Sasun, once again, I am addressing sSebB's version of God. I am well aware that your notions of God and religion are very different. As a summary, here are a few things he has said just in this thrad alone: Sasun, you still think I am the arrogant one here? God put us on this earth "to spread the good news and stop evil". And this makes more sense than Big Bang? I'd say even this makes more sense than that. I know we have had a number of discussions before as well on the "stupidity" in this ineherent assumption that anyone who doesn't believe in God is necessarily evil. God made us in HIS image and told us to go rule over every living creature? Am I the arrogant one here? Me? Really? A couple of more "evidences" why I call this particular God a sadistic, evil God who likes to sit back and watch suffering and then has the audacity to pass judgement. Your posts contain a lot of arrogance as a matter of fact. Sip, understand this please. God is a loving, caring God. If you want to see evil and blame God, do it. If you want to call him an idiot, limited and sadistic, go ahead. I don't see what you will achieve by doing so. He did make us in his own image. I feel like I am repeating myself, can you understand what I am trying to tell you? Because you seem to be asking the same questions over and over. My version of God is the Christian one. I don't see God any differently than Sasun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 You mean, skip pain and have only happiness on earth? I completely agree, and I am not happy about the sufferings of the world. Then again, if you knew that this life is not the only life you have, and that you have numerous other occassions where you can have a better live, then would you agree that current pain and suffering is not ultimate and as such it should not be accepted as seriously? Another point is, if God makes it possible for such a great suffering to exist, then He also gives one the possibility to overcome them. Nobody likes to suffer, but overcoming sufferings with your own efforts could be supremely thrilling for us human beings. Whereas God intervining at every occassion and solving our problems could be boring and humiliating to human nature. Once we realize that we can take life as a very entertaining game. If we could only realize and always remember that we are not the body, our body is like a garment, no matter what happens you never die in reality We have put up some body and mind costumes to play certain roles in a play called the Cosmic Play brilliantly led by God. So cheer up and play your game well no matter what role have you taken up in this lifetime Once again, Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 sSebB Don't you realize that a god having created everything could not have been self-aware without the existance of anything prior to his own existance? An observer is self aware because as an observer he observe something. Without observing you can just not be self-aware. If there was nothing before he created anything, he could not have been an observer, because there was nothing to observe, and therefore he could not have been self aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Also, answer to this paradox. Which one is true? 1- God has chosen what is right and what is wrong. (example. He decided that killing was wrong, but he could have chosen that killing was right, but he did not do it.) 2- Right and Wrong were not chosen by god, they are preestablished truths. Which of those two is the right answer? If you answer clearly and logically without ending in a paradox, you covert me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Also, answer to this paradox. Which one is true? 1- God has chosen what is right and what is wrong. (example. He decided that killing was wrong, but he could have chosen that killing was right, but he did not do it.) 2- Right and Wrong were not chosen by god, they are preestablished truths. Which of those two is the right answer? If you answer clearly and logically without ending in a paradox, you covert me. 1 What would right/wrong be established to, if there was nothing in existence but God himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 sSebB Don't you realize that a god having created everything could not have been self-aware without the existance of anything prior to his own existance? An observer is self aware because as an observer he observe something. Without observing you can just not be self-aware. If there was nothing before he created anything, he could not have been an observer, because there was nothing to observe, and therefore he could not have been self aware. In the beginning there was God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 In the beginning there was God. Was he self-aware, yes or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Was he self-aware, yes or no? I don't understand...self-aware of what? He created everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) My version of God is the Christian one. I don't see God any differently than Sasun. You see God very differently than Sasun. Sasun does not dismiss the notion of multi-theism for one. He also does not claim Christianity is the one and only Truth. But before I drag myself too much into this comparison, I'll shut up now and stop talking for Sasun since I admittedly don't understand much of what he claims either. But even though I don't really understand what he says since apparently I don't have the necessary spiritual eye and insights he has, I am sure what you keep saying is wrong and has no real basis other than just dogma. Edited December 3, 2005 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 1 What would right/wrong be established to, if there was nothing in existence but God himself? Let me understand correctly. What was right and wrong were chosen randomnly. Had god chosen that killing would be right, it would have been right? Suppose that he had chosen it as right, would you accept then killing being right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 I don't understand...self-aware of what? He created everything. Was he aware of his own existance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) You see God very differently than Sasun. Sasun does not dismiss the notion of multi-theism for one. He also does not claim Christianity is the one and only Truth. But before I drag myself too much into this comparison, I'll shut up now and stop talking for Sasun since I admittedly don't understand much of what he claims either. But even though I don't really understand what he says since apparently I don't have the necessary spiritual eye and insights he has, I am sure what you keep saying is wrong and has no real basis other than just dogma. Ok, you're right, I'm wrong. I was a fool to think God loves us BTW, what makes you think you're right? I have never questioned your basis, but could you tell me? I have the Bible and the Spirit of God inside me, that's my basis. Edited December 3, 2005 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Let me understand correctly. What was right and wrong were chosen randomnly. Had god chosen that killing would be right, it would have been right? Suppose that he had chosen it as right, would you accept then killing being right? You'll have to ask God yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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