Buddha

[DominO123]

Karma simply means "what goes around, comes around". If you do bad, don't be surprised if good things don't come your way.

 

I think 3 is a great point

 

So according to you, psychotics with amnesia after outbrakes should have a first degree murder sentence, if they were to kill during their psychosis, even though, they don't even remember anything.

Edited December 3, 2005 by QueBeceR

[Arpa]

Do you guys know what the Persian term “bud/put perest” means?

“but” as in “boot”, some may know it as "put/poot", Armenian- կուրք. It means idol/idolater, worshipper of false gods.

Who is the “false god”?

But/Buddha?

As if one Judaic imposter was not enough, now we are to subscribe to another asiatic?

Whatever happened to our native "imposters/prophets"?

Do we have any??

Why not??

Edited December 3, 2005 by Arpa

[DominO123]

Also, at least, if someone want to reject natural selection, he should use Gardner’s Selfish Biocosm hypothesis, which BTW, I don't reject, since I believe it complete Cosmological natural selection(and they aren't really contradictory). This way, you could make some sense.

 

The site of the book could be found here.

 

http://www.biocosm.org/

 

The book even recieved praises from the publisher of skeptic magazine.

 

This book should be in the wishlist of Sip and Anoushik. Don't miss it.

[aSoldier]

So according to you, psychotics with amnesia after outbrakes should have a first degree murder sentence, if they were to kill during their psychosis, even though, they don't even remember anything.

 

Did he do it knowingly, willingly and freely? I think not.

[DominO123]

Did he do it knowingly, willingly and freely? I think not.

 

OK, suppose now, that someone killed another person, and in the process he hit his head and became amnesic, not only has he forgotten having done so, but he forgot everything he knows, the guy returned in school, got married and has children. Later, they got him and was charged to a first degree murder.

 

Should he be condemned ?

[Sip]

Sasun or sSebB ... would either of you care to explain how the Hell you can believe in the Bible as THE Truth and also believe in Karma and past lives and having to pay for them in later ones? Edited December 4, 2005 by Sip

[Eloren]

I was going to ask the same question as Sip

 

I never heard of "previous lives" or karmas in Christianity

[Sasun]

Sip and Eloren (and especially Sip who does not read the Bible), the Bible does not specifically talk or deny the law of Karma, however it contains some hints of it. Karma is simply the law of cause and effect expressed in human lives. I am sure none of you would reject that all natural phenomena are an endless chain of cause and effect. So why is it surprising that human life can also be a subject to cause and effect?

 

And as to the Bible, yes, it has the Truth, but no book in the world contains all the laws together laid out and defined comprehensively. So we can say that the Bible does not talk about Karma. But it definitely talks about the principle of cause and effect, or as Seb simply put it "what goes around comes around".

 

I don't remember where exactly (it can be easily found in the Gospels) Jesus has said something like "before Abraham I am". This to me sounds like a reference to a previous life of Jesus.

 

Unfortunately, the church doctrines around the world do not accept what they think is not in the Bible. Actually a lot of things that are known in Eastern spiritual heritage are in the Bible, yet the churches do not accept without even understanding.

[Anoushik]

You mean, mine or his?

Of course yours! Why did I quote you in the first place?

[Anoushik]

Yes Anoushik, I am also talking about real human tragedies. What I have learned to be the truth about human tragedies is there are four main reasons of tragedies:

 

1) Unwise acts and habits...

 

2) Past karma, by the principle of cause and effect...

 

3) Lack of divine protection...

 

4) Association with bad company...

Sasun, none of this explain the great tragedies of being born with a birth defect, or being born in an abusive family. It makes sense that everyone decides his own fate in life (more or less, like choosing to get an education or just making better choices in life), but in order for that to be fair everyone needs to be given equal opportunities. I believe that it's the environment that corrupts the person; everyone is born innocent. And, you never answered my question of why do we have to experience this life full of misery and suffering (not everyone suffers, I admit) as part of our journey through other existences and experiences.

[DominO123]

Of course yours! Why did I quote you in the first place?

 

The second choice will assume that god did not creat everything, because right and wrong already existed and preestablished.

[DominO123]

Sasun, none of this explain the great tragedies of being born with a birth defect, or being born in an abusive family. It makes sense that everyone decides his own fate in life (more or less, like choosing to get an education or just making better choices in life), but in order for that to be fair everyone needs to be given equal opportunities. I believe that it's the environment that corrupts the person; everyone is born innocent. And, you never answered my question of why do we have to experience this life full of misery and suffering (not everyone suffers, I admit) as part of our journey through other existences and experiences.

 

The thing is that Karma sounds to be logical for those that believes in it. Afteral, it explains why everyone are not equal.

 

But the problem with the Karma, is that even was there any reincarnation, randomnity will do a better job than the Karma. What I mean, is that we don't have to pay for a past lives, for everyone to be equal, we have only to reincarnate indefinitly and each entities will be as equal as any other. I don't know if you understand what I mean.

 

In Quantum immortality, or the eternel life souleless(without soul) could be interpreted as reincarnation, but without this Karma stuff.

 

You will just exist again, if ever in another bunchs of universes, the connections(brain circuitry etc.) that will creat the you, exist again. And since there are infinit numbers of universes, and that just by your existances it demonstrate that the connections making the you exist, exist... it is just a certainty that you always existed and will always exist.

 

This eternity doesn't require any soul, doesn't require any Karma.

 

Besides, given that we are, or pratically all the universe is only empty space, we're already souls as matter.

[Sasun]

Sasun, none of this explain the great tragedies of being born with a birth defect, or being born in an abusive family. It makes sense that everyone decides his own fate in life (more or less, like choosing to get an education or just making better choices in life), but in order for that to be fair everyone needs to be given equal opportunities. I believe that it's the environment that corrupts the person; everyone is born innocent. And, you never answered my question of why do we have to experience this life full of misery and suffering (not everyone suffers, I admit) as part of our journey through other existences and experiences.

Anoushik, Karma expains why children are born sick. Because they may have done something wrong in past lives. From that point of view there is no such thing as child or adult. Everyone is a deathless soul, having experiences in different lives.

Karma is a mechanical system of justice. If you unfairly receive a slap, and you don't forgive the slapper, that slap will be returned to its origin at some point in the future. It is only fair that this happens, I am sure a lot of people would demand such a thing to happen.

Also, you transgress spiritual laws, and the resulting punishment will follow. It is not about God punishing you, it is you punishing yourself by breaking one or another spiritual law. It is mechanical.

 

As to your other question, I was not sure that you needed and answer Well, my answer is we don't have to suffer at all. Who said that we must suffer? But we choose to behave in a way that creates suffering for us.

Then perhaps someone eager to blame God would ask, why pain and suffereing exist at all, why is it at all possible to have suffering? Because this world has a dual nature, every quality has the opposite: dark and light, good and evil, pain and pleasure, youth and old age, happiness and sadness, sweet and bitter, love and hate, etc... and if you were to ask then why is there a duality, the answer would be because you can't paint a picture with one color. In order for the world to exist there must be different colors, different qualities, dark and light, different shades, etc... duality is simply the nature of this material world.

That's how I see. One who masters the art of life finds himself/herself beyond and above the dualities, having neither pleasure nor pain, but only endless joy. And one who unscrupulously seeks pleasures in the light shades in the end rips the resulting pains finding himself in the dark shades of life, simply because it is inevitable. The dualities in this world are tied to each other, you pull a light color, a dark color will follow sooner or later.

[Sip]

Anoushik, Karma expains why children are born sick. Because they may have done something wrong in past lives. From that point of view there is no such thing as child or adult. Everyone is a deathless soul, having experiences in different lives.

Karma is a mechanical system of justice. If you unfairly receive a slap, and you don't forgive the slapper, that slap will be returned to its origin at some point in the future. It is only fair that this happens, I am sure a lot of people would demand such a thing to happen.

Also, you transgress spiritual laws, and the resulting punishment will follow. It is not about God punishing you, it is you punishing yourself by breaking one or another spiritual law. It is mechanical.

 

Sausn, I know you tried to explain before (it was a VERY weak explanation by the way) but again, how can you claim the Bible at the center of which is the concept of heaven and hell which are ETERNAL and you will never get out of either, as the Truth, when you keep talking about Karma which is a mechanism by which you CAN influence your later reincarnations?

 

The two are fundamentally different and no matter how much you try to interject some vague quote from Jesus, this fact will not change

 

By the way, the quote from Jesus you tried to bring up is probably saying more about how there is a God in each and every one of us. Also, Christ (and God) being reincarnated in various shapes and forms is no basis for argument for Karma and endless life (or "deathless soul" as you call it).

 

In the Bible, death is a VERY central theme and eternal damnation/salvation is the end. So again, how can you talk about both as Truths?

[Sip]

Do you guys know what the Persian term “bud/put perest” means?

“but” as in “boot”, some may know it as "put/poot", Armenian- կուրք. It means idol/idolater, worshipper of false gods.

Who is the “false god”?

But/Buddha?

As if one Judaic imposter was not enough, now we are to subscribe to another asiatic?

Whatever happened to our native "imposters/prophets"?

Do we have any??

Why not??

 

I am familiar with the terms. The actual pronounciation is more like "bot parast". They brought down big statues of the Shah after the revolution under this notion if I'm not mistaken. And didn't the Taliban blow up those amazing historic statues (of buddah?) in Afghanistan since they deemed them to be "bots"?

 

At the same time, the majority of the muslim population sticks up their ass opposite to the direction of their most prestigious bot (mecca) at least a couple of times a day.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Sip

[aSoldier]

Sausn, I know you tried to explain before (it was a VERY weak explanation by the way) but again, how can you claim the Bible at the center of which is the concept of heaven and hell which are ETERNAL and you will never get out of either, as the Truth, when you keep talking about Karma which is a mechanism by which you CAN influence your later reincarnations?

 

The two are fundamentally different and no matter how much you try to interject some vague quote from Jesus, this fact will not change

 

By the way, the quote from Jesus you tried to bring up is probably saying more about how there is a God in each and every one of us. Also, Christ (and God) being reincarnated in various shapes and forms is no basis for argument for Karma and endless life (or "deathless soul" as you call it).

 

In the Bible, death is a VERY central theme and eternal damnation/salvation is the end. So again, how can you talk about both as Truths?

 

I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, however, Karma is not contradictory in the Bible. In fact, it compliments it without actually using that word.

 

Many christians state "God doesn't punish you for your sins, the sins themselves punish you".

[aSoldier]

Sasun, none of this explain the great tragedies of being born with a birth defect, or being born in an abusive family. It makes sense that everyone decides his own fate in life (more or less, like choosing to get an education or just making better choices in life), but in order for that to be fair everyone needs to be given equal opportunities. I believe that it's the environment that corrupts the person; everyone is born innocent. And, you never answered my question of why do we have to experience this life full of misery and suffering (not everyone suffers, I admit) as part of our journey through other existences and experiences.

 

I know many babies that were defected at birth, but were prayed for and are now all healthy and normal. Surely, you cannot dismiss this as "luck". An abusive family? Ok. A Christian abusive family? Never heard of such a thing.

 

Do you notice that bad things happen to all people, but the devoted Christians pull through everything by the power of God?

 

God sometimes gives us a challenge to see if we will rely on him. Some call it a test.

 

Make sense?

[Sip]

I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, however, Karma is not contradictory in the Bible. In fact, it compliments it without actually using that word.

 

Many christians state "God doesn't punish you for your sins, the sins themselves punish you".

 

Well, then before agreeing with Sasun so strongly, maybe you should understand exactly what he is saying. Sounds like the two of you are saying different things yet you end up agreeing with him when actually you don't.

 

Also, it is irrelevant what "many Christians" say. You either believe in the Bible as the truth or you don't. This pick and choose the different parts of the Bible that sound good and then interpret the rest as you want is NOT consistent with the Bible being the word of God. So either it IS the word of God or it isn't.

 

If it IS the word of God, fine. But don't twist things around in the Bible and try to weasel out of inconsistencies and problems with the text by resorting to other explanations (like a kid being born sick for not having had adequate 'next life' insurance with State Farm in a previous life or what not).

 

If it IS NOT the word of God, then stop preaching every single verse of that damned text as if it were holy doctrine and claiming it to be the one and only Truth with the capital T.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Sip

[aSoldier]

Well, then before agreeing with Sasun so strongly, maybe you should understand exactly what he is saying. Sounds like the two of you are saying different things yet you end up agreeing with him when actually you don't.

 

Also, it is irrelevant what "many Christians" say. You either believe in the Bible as the truth or you don't. This pick and choose the different parts of the Bible that sound good and then interpret the rest as you want is NOT consistent with the Bible being the word of God. So either it IS the word of God or it isn't.

 

If it IS the word of God, fine. But don't twist things around in the Bible and try to weasel out of inconsistencies and problems with the text by resorting to other explanations (like a kid being born sick for not having had adequate 'next life' insurance with State Farm in a previous life or what not).

 

If it IS NOT the word of God, then stop preaching every single verse of that damned text as if it were holy doctrine and claiming it to be the one and only Truth with the capital T.

 

Actually Sasun and I agreed that we had some minor differences in how we see God, but the main idea is present. We are not pick and choosing 'good parts' of the Bible, but what is relevant to the topic we are discussing.

 

I don't twist anything, you can check the Bible yourself and see that what I have quoted is pure. Nevertheless, the Bible is broad, so there can be many interpretations by different people reading the same chapter/verse.

[Sasun]

Sausn, I know you tried to explain before (it was a VERY weak explanation by the way) but again, how can you claim the Bible at the center of which is the concept of heaven and hell which are ETERNAL and you will never get out of either, as the Truth, when you keep talking about Karma which is a mechanism by which you CAN influence your later reincarnations?

 

The two are fundamentally different and no matter how much you try to interject some vague quote from Jesus, this fact will not change

 

By the way, the quote from Jesus you tried to bring up is probably saying more about how there is a God in each and every one of us. Also, Christ (and God) being reincarnated in various shapes and forms is no basis for argument for Karma and endless life (or "deathless soul" as you call it).

 

In the Bible, death is a VERY central theme and eternal damnation/salvation is the end. So again, how can you talk about both as Truths?

Sip, you are actually repeating what the church says. I don't agree church's interpretation of eternal hell. I believe there are good states and bad states in between life times, but none of them is eternal. Also there are states during one's lifetime that are more important than states during death.

So, for example, Jesus says in the Bible that certain acts lead one to be "cast in eternal fire". The church is saying it is eternal hell after one dies, and you are repeating it (I wonder if you have actually read anything in the Bible and tried to understand on your own ) But there is a different interpretation for that, yes, an eternal bad place, but is it really a hell in the afterlife? What about a hellish state during ones life, not after death? What about a mental anguish that one can experience during life because he realizes he has done wrong and his conscience is causing him pangs? I would call that hell too. Or what about an endless, vicious cycle of hellish life and death because you have done so many wrong things that your bad karma just keeps accumulating and punishing you? I would call that an eternal fire too. So, basically, I would not like to just accept church's interpetation because it has contradictions. I try to understand it by comparing it to other religions. If one religion can be right then other religions also can be right, likewise if one religion has no chance at all of having any truth then no other religion can be true. I think all major religions are truthful, therefore it is always good to learn from them.

 

Sip, so tell me, have you read anything in the Bible? If so then it would be good to talk about specific text rather than general. The Bible is a huge collection of books, by the way I have not read all of it. But the Truth I am talking about is contained in the Gospels of the New Testament. Suppose there are some older texts that are not as truthful, I can't tell without reading them.

[Sasun]

Actually Sasun and I agreed that we had some minor differences in how we see God, but the main idea is present. We are not pick and choosing 'good parts' of the Bible, but what is relevant to the topic we are discussing.

 

I don't twist anything, you can check the Bible yourself and see that what I have quoted is pure. Nevertheless, the Bible is broad, so there can be many interpretations by different people reading the same chapter/verse.

Well, we both agreed that we have differences. As to reincarnation, whether or not you believe in it, I think we both agree that one should live by spiritual laws, and we both agree that following Jesus Christ's teachings will free one from a very bad state - no matter how we understand it. That's more important than believing in reincarnation.

[DominO123]

Sip, I shall kill you, and when on court justify by claiming that I should not be judged, because the bad thing that happened to you(your death) could be explained by your Karma and that you did something bad in a past life.

 

Let me understand, I can blow a building and kill thousands, and that fact that I am able to kill those people means that they've did something bad in a pasr life.

 

Afteral if they did not do anything wrong, the bomb will just not explode. If the bomb do explode, it means I was right by placing that bomb because the explosion will demonstrate that they did something wrong in the past life.

 

That's a good test to judge peoples past life, I shall build such a machine, in which a gun will shut, if the gun doesn't shout, the person that was in the machine hasn't done anything wrong.

 

Sip, I will be building such a device, I want to test it on you. Don't you want to know if your past life was a good person?

[Takoush]

Sip, I will be building such a device, I want to test it on you. Don't you want to know if your past life was a good person?

[Takoush]

we both agree that following Jesus Christ's teachings will free one from a very bad state - no matter how we understand it. That's more important than believing in reincarnation.

 

Sasun:

 

Don't mind Sip. I personally agree and understand all your thoughts and explanations. They make good sense to me.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Eloren]

Anoushik, Karma expains why children are born sick. Because they may have done something wrong in past lives. From that point of view there is no such thing as child or adult. Everyone is a deathless soul, having experiences in different lives.

 

This doesn't explain why you should pay for the mistakes you did in previous lives. I thought God was kind and forgives people..

 

Karma is a mechanical system of justice. If you unfairly receive a slap, and you don't forgive the slapper, that slap will be returned to its origin at some point in the future. It is only fair that this happens, I am sure a lot of people would demand such a thing to happen.

Also, you transgress spiritual laws, and the resulting punishment will follow. It is not about God punishing you, it is you punishing yourself by breaking one or another spiritual law. It is mechanical.

 

Once again, I thought Christianity is based on forgivness, not cold vengeance.

And if God doesn't punish us, but we punish ourselves.. Then what does God do? Sits back and looks at his sims evolve in a world he built? Why should we then go pray and ask God for forgivness?