Sip Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Don't mind Sip. I personally agree and understand all your thoughts and explanations. They make good sense to me. Do you believe in reincarnation and this "deathless soul" business too? If so, then do you consider yourself a true follower of Christ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) This doesn't explain why you should pay for the mistakes you did in previous lives. I thought God was kind and forgives people.. The law of Karma is not the only law, there are many other spiritual laws. I mentioned the Karma only because we were discussing tragedies and such things. Once again (may I ask you to read carefully before jumping to conclusions?) - the law of karma is simply a universal justice system. If there was no justice I am sure you would raise an uproar that there is no justice and God is not fair That is why there is a quite exacting justice system in place. Yes, God is kind and forgiving. That is why if you pray to God and ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven and the mechanical effect of karma will be cancelled or diminished on you. That too is a spiritual law called Divine Love. Jesus said "Ask and you shall be given". This is a very significan spiritual law. God is both just and loving and forgiving. Having said the above, justice and forgiveness do not contradict to each other as it may seem. If you think about it deeply, a loving God would be expected to have an absolutely fair and impartial justice system, and that is the case. If this is too complicated I will give a simple example: a mother has 2 children, both are naughty. If the mother punishes the first child but forgives the second child then obviously this mother does not love the first child as much. Therefore, a truly loving mother will punish or forgive both children fairly and equally. Capish? And if God doesn't punish us, but we punish ourselves.. Then what does God do? Sits back and looks at his sims evolve in a world he built? Why should we then go pray and ask God for forgivness? Oh, well, God does a lot of other things... Edited December 5, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Sasun: Don't mind Sip. I personally agree and understand all your thoughts and explanations. They make good sense to me. Anahid, thanks I dont mind Sip, I know he is going to find flaws whatever I say and say something cynical. Nothing has changed since year 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) Do you believe in reincarnation and this "deathless soul" business too? If so, then do you consider yourself a true follower of Christ? Sip jan: First off, whenever I see your triangular huge cheese on your head, it still puts a smile on my face. Second, yes I do believe how Sassun explains it all; because I am a firm believer of God and of Christ. Anyway, Christ is also God; because He is the son of God. He did come on earth to save us from our sins and if we follow him and His doctrines and give ourselves to Him; yes we will go to heavan hopefully. But the key is to be saved through Him. God was punishing us for a great many things before He created Jesus His beloved son. Anyhow, I never did read about Buddha much at all; but I read a bit two semesters ago about oriental and Chinese Tatsoism as I prepared it for my Music Appreciation class for a play I saw as an essay. So I got to know about it somewhat. Other than that I don't know much about karma or Buddha. Perhaps I'll start reading about it once I finish this semester with my studies. Anyhow, coming back to God; God loved us humans so much that He thought of creating His one and only son Jesus and then letting barbaric unworthy of Him men kill Him SO THAT WE WILL BE SAVED. Wasn't He wonderful and a loving God? I very well think so. I praise both Jesus and God, not because I am afraid of them so much; but because I love them with all my heart. Because they are loving, forgiving and good. Sassun is absolutely right. Because through Them you will find eternal peace and peace of mind and soul. But first you have to believe in Them; same as when you were a little child and believed in Santa. You may have believed in Santa and your wishes came through, right? It's the same way now that you're grown up. With belief you will pray for anything and everything your little good heart wishes, and your wishes a little later or sooner will come true. But you first must believe in Them. That's the trick! God bless you my beloved brother. Edited December 5, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) Sip jan: I forgot to answer your first question. Yes I truly believe in what Sassun said about "deathless soul". Remember, when Jesus was resurrected, he went to heavan of course and he was resurrected because He is God and He was good. Now, if we -humans- live a good life on earth and believe in God and Jesus Christ and dedicate ourselves to Jesus and apologize for our sins; then there's a good chance that we will be saved and go to heavan eternally. Yes I do believe in this too. Oh, one more thing. Although it's good to know that our wishes will come through by asking; but we must not only pray and praise God for this. We must do it because we believe in Him and His goodness and His sincere love for us. Also, one shouldn't lead a good life on earth because he thinks of going to heavan only; although that's partly a good incentive, but nevertheless, one should lead a good life for his own good. To find peace and with peace happiness that comes with it and because you want to be good with God and in the interim to discover Him and His goodness and His love. Edited December 5, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) ... Now, if we -humans- live a good life on earth and believe in God and Jesus Christ and dedicate ourselves to Jesus and apologize for our sins; then there's a good chance that we will be saved and go to heavan eternally. Yes I do believe in this too. No no no ... that is not the "deathless soul" Sasun is talking about. He is saying souls get reincarnated back to life as various humans and even end up paying for sins in previous lives. Do you believe in that, is the question... Also, since you seem to know the Bible fairly well (I'm sure better than me), can you confirm whether this notion of reincarnation of regular humans is supported by It? Edited December 5, 2005 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Anahid, thanks I dont mind Sip, I know he is going to find flaws whatever I say and say something cynical. Nothing has changed since year 2003 Sasun, I hope you don't take it personally since it's in my nature to try to get to the bottom of anything I don't understand well. But there is a big difference from a few years ago. I am a lot less open minded to ALL ideas. I have come to learn a lot of ideas are completely unfounded and don't have any solid foundations. For example, it is completely obvious to me that it makes absolutely no sense to assume that just because someone rejects the Bible and Jesus, that that person is evil. Not saying that you have said that, but there are others that have come and gone that have tried to make such claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) No no no ... that is not the "deathless soul" Sasun is talking about. He is saying souls get reincarnated back to life as various humans and even end up paying for sins in previous lives. Do you believe in that, is the question... Also, since you seem to know the Bible fairly well (I'm sure better than me), can you confirm whether this notion of reincarnation of regular humans is supported by It? Yes, I believe in the first paragraph. That we get reincarnated back to life and end up paying for sins in previous lives. But unfortunately, I know parts of the Bible and a great deal of it; but I didn't read the whole Bible yet. Believe it or not I listen to the Family program on the radio in my car. They always talk about it and explain about scriptures from the Bible. That's how I learned about it more so. I am afraid no, I haven't read about "the deathless soul" to support this fact in the Bible. Not yet. This is another project I must do. Maybe I'll start searching and reading about it tonight. But now you will say to me and you will be right to question me; that how come I believe in it? I believe I heard about it from an Armenian priest once; as he obviously read about it and knew it from the scriptures. Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 ...I thought Christianity is based on forgivness, not cold vengeance... It's based on love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 ...God loved us humans so much that He thought of creating His one and only son Jesus and then letting barbaric unworthy of Him men kill Him SO THAT WE WILL BE SAVED. Wasn't He wonderful and a loving God? I very well think so. I praise both Jesus and God, not because I am afraid of them so much; but because I love them with all my heart. Because they are loving, forgiving and good. Sassun is absolutely right. Because through Them you will find eternal peace and peace of mind and soul. But first you have to believe in Them; same as when you were a little child and believed in Santa. You may have believed in Santa and your wishes came through, right? It's the same way now that you're grown up. With belief you will pray for anything and everything your little good heart wishes, and your wishes a little later or sooner will come true. But you first must believe in Them. That's the trick! God bless you my beloved brother. Now you're talking.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Anoushik, Karma expains why children are born sick. Because they may have done something wrong in past lives. From that point of view there is no such thing as child or adult. Everyone is a deathless soul, having experiences in different lives. Sasun, the problem I have with Karma is that it seems to be an endless cycle. If a person did wrong in a previous life, then he is born with bad Karma. But because he is born with bad Karma he ends up repeating the same mistakes - like growing up in a family of gangs (not his choice) and ending up killing for drug money - thus he is born again with bad Karma. Since he was born in a corruptive environment (and probably didn't go to Church or study about Karma) he hasn't much chance to improve from his previous life. (And not remembering his past life doesn't help either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Do you notice that bad things happen to all people, but the devoted Christians pull through everything by the power of God? Only devoted Christians or all devoted people of other religions, such as Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslisms, followers of various indigenous religions, such as the Native Americans, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Sip, I shall kill you, and when on court justify by claiming that I should not be judged, because the bad thing that happened to you(your death) could be explained by your Karma and that you did something bad in a past life. Uhm... QueBeceR? Are you sure you directed this to the right person? Shouldn't it be directed to Sasun? (No offence Sasun! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Only devoted Christians or all devoted people of other religions, such as Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslisms, followers of various indigenous religions, such as the Native Americans, etc.? I can't answer for other religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Now you're talking.. Thank you Seb: I see you have the same beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 I can't answer for other religions. So only the religious can access a good life a pretend to go to "heaven"? Someone who doesn't believe is bound to go to Hell? Seems like : "Bow before me or suffer eternally".. In these days we call this type a "bloody dictator". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) So only the religious can access a good life a pretend to go to "heaven"? Someone who doesn't believe is bound to go to Hell? Seems like : "Bow before me or suffer eternally".. In these days we call this type a "bloody dictator". Wow wow wow; not so fast baron Eloren: I suggest for you to go back to this link. Click it and you'll see Sasun's very good answer to you under Armenian Apostolic Church, of Nov. 10, 2005, 12:04 AM post: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12739&st=60 He is basically saying that God does not punish or reward anyone, it is us who punish or reward ourselves by our own actions. As God gave us rules and the 10 commandments, so that we'll follow these rules. Go ahead read it; it was a very good explanation to you now. I even commanded Sasun for his exact and sound explanations. Edited December 5, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Wow wow wow; not so fast baron Eloren: I suggest for you to go back to this link. Click it and you'll see Sasun's very good answer to you under Armenian Apostolic Church, of Nov. 10, 2005, 12:04 AM post: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12739&st=60 He is basically saying that God does not punish or reward anyone, it is us who punish or reward ourselves by our own actions. As God gave us rules and the 10 commandments, so that we'll follow these rules. Go ahead read it; it was a very good explanation to you now. I even commanded Sasun for his exact and sound explanations. I already know that Anahid The thing that bothers me is this separation thing.. Those who are religious will have eternal life, those who are not, but are good, never do evil, have a healthy and correct life.. well.. they shall know eternal suffer in the flames of hell Bow before God or face endless pain.. What? We should all be equal in front of our God, shouldn't we? The poor guy that has done only good in his life, that has the purest karma but denies the existence of God.. well, poor guy... This is not the image I have of a God. I again come to my theory of a cup being filled each time you live a new life.. And strangely, Sasun says the same thing Except that God doesn't count in the equation. Denying or praising him doesnt make us bad or good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) Eloren: Yes, the truth is from what I know is that in God's law before Jesus was born we would go to hell in most instances; because we weren't par with being 'good' in his eyes. So, out of love of mankind God created Jesus to come and cleanse our sins and by dedicating ourselves to him and accepting Him and God we will thus be cleansed of our sins and we'll go to heavan to join Jesus. Now this is in the scriptures. But you are saying two things, I believe; you're saying someone who lives a 'good' and descent life will not go to heavan because he denied Him, God. Now I am not God; because anyone will tell you, even the most famous Evangelists or even the Pope won't be able to tell you the ultimate truth about this as mankind don't know it; because we are not God. We can only read the scriptures in the Bible and try to understand it at most. That's it. However, your argument about why why we are not saved if we deny God; well the answer is because he gave the blood of His one and only son Jesus to come and save us. After that it's up to you and me to be saved by His goodwill to mankind, accept the Lord and be saved. At least you have a choice now. Before Jesus mankind didn't have a choice; most of them went to hell. Try to think it that way and be thankful to Him that He's given you that choice now. The other thing is if you are a very good person than maybe maybe you'll go to pergutory for I don't know how long. But notice I am saying maybe. I don't know the answer. I don't know if Sasun knows the answer to this one either. Ask him in a nice way maybe he'll answer you. But my thinking and understanding is that; you will not want to be saved then you'll be chased by evils and will have to go to hell. Otherwise, stay with Him and be saved then you'll enjoy the paradise for eternity. At least you have a choice now, right? Edited December 5, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Sasun, the problem I have with Karma is that it seems to be an endless cycle. If a person did wrong in a previous life, then he is born with bad Karma. But because he is born with bad Karma he ends up repeating the same mistakes - like growing up in a family of gangs (not his choice) and ending up killing for drug money - thus he is born again with bad Karma. Since he was born in a corruptive environment (and probably didn't go to Church or study about Karma) he hasn't much chance to improve from his previous life. (And not remembering his past life doesn't help either.) Yes, Anoushik, if you fall in a vicious cycle of karma then you are basically in eternal hell. That does not mean that there is no hope. Gospels are not called the "good news" for no reason, they indeed are good news for us as they provide a way out of our self created mysery. That is why prophets in various places and ages have willingly taken birth to help their fellow human beings. Jesus Christ came to earth to save us by his teachings, and he took the bad karma of many-many people on him. That is why he died in such a cruel way. He took a huge amount of sins on him and suffered the accumulated karmic punishment. You see, God is so fair and just that he didn't break his own law of unbiased law of Karma and did not spare Jesus from the punishment of those other people. Anyway, the main point is, yes, you should not mess with karma or may end up in an expanding hole. On the other hand, Karma gives you a wonderful opportunity to invest good acts into your future. Do good now, and your good acts will never be lost. And since you are a good person you will automatically do good, so your good Karma will keep accumulating even though you don't do any special effort. (Actually Jesus has exactly pointed this principle too by saying omething like "what you have will be given to you, what you don't have will be taken away from you", meaning if you have predominantly goog qualities, those good qualities will automatically increas, and if you have predominantly bad qualities and some good qualities, you will loose those good qualities). If you do good now you will reap the benefits in the future and undo bad karma from previous lives or earlier stages in this life. Doesn't Jesus say "you reap what you saw?". That is exactly the principle of cause and effect, or law of karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Uhm... QueBeceR? Are you sure you directed this to the right person? Shouldn't it be directed to Sasun? (No offence Sasun! ) Actually, Sip was an artifice, obviously the message there was not addressed to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Sasun, I hope you don't take it personally since it's in my nature to try to get to the bottom of anything I don't understand well. But there is a big difference from a few years ago. I am a lot less open minded to ALL ideas. I have come to learn a lot of ideas are completely unfounded and don't have any solid foundations. No worries, I don't take it personally. I don't remember any time that you have said anything personal to me. For example, it is completely obvious to me that it makes absolutely no sense to assume that just because someone rejects the Bible and Jesus, that that person is evil. Not saying that you have said that, but there are others that have come and gone that have tried to make such claims. Depends on what you mean by rejection, it is not necessarily black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 By rejection I mean myself for example: I think Jesus was a great person with great ideas waaaay ahead of his time. However, I completely reject the notion of God and anything supernatural about Jesus. I completely reject the idea of his resurection. I completely reject the idea of things after death (Heaven, Hell, being reborn, etc). As you know, I also completely reject the idea of ghosts and spirits and such I don't think humans are too far ahead of many other mammals on earth. Many spiritualists tend to be very human centric in their views but science has shown us that many things we tend to consider as super-special human abilities are in fact demonstrated in other animals ... so we really aint' that great (definitely NOT on the same level as God or God's image that many would like to believe). But I don't think any of this makes me an evil person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 By rejection I mean myself for example: I think Jesus was a great person with great ideas waaaay ahead of his time. However, I completely reject the notion of God and anything supernatural about Jesus. I completely reject the idea of his resurection. I completely reject the idea of things after death (Heaven, Hell, being reborn, etc). As you know, I also completely reject the idea of ghosts and spirits and such I don't think humans are too far ahead of many other mammals on earth. Many spiritualists tend to be very human centric in their views but science has shown us that many things we tend to consider as super-special human abilities are in fact demonstrated in other animals ... so we really aint' that great (definitely NOT on the same level as God or God's image that many would like to believe). But I don't think any of this makes me an evil person. Do you reject the multiverse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 If the multiverse is one of those things that I just have to believe for it to be true, then I reject it. Basically, I reject anything that is self-defining (i.e. believe in God and it will exist). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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