TigrannesIII Posted December 2, 2002 Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:But Qristine - it is you who are telling us that this poem tells us all what a clear definition of an Armenian is. (I really dont think that it does BTW) But if you believe that it does then it is you who must measure up to this standard. Meanwhile you are advocating being a "pure" Armenian and marrying only Armenian and such. Well - this clearly is putting Armenians above others - exactly contrary to your simultanious claim of what it is to be Armenian. I must say that every post of yours just leaves me more confused. Oh and BTW - Mt Ararat is (only) in Turkey and not Armenia (though perhaps this poem was written long ago - somehow I think not). And is this implying that Turks are somehow Armenian or Armenian's Turks?! I know that there are many who claim this. Are you one of these? Must we maintain our Turkish cultural elements...? Again I am confused. I cannot think that this poem - as nice as it is - really truly presents an accurate (clear) picture of what an Armenian is. And it doesn't mention the USA at all - can one be an Armenian and live in the USA? Where does it say this in the poem? Is there a Lake Seven in LA - is this where the duplicate resides? Look - all this is nice...but does us little good in answering either your intitial question about marriage or mine about the definition of an Armenian. I'm still quite unclear about your ideas or position.Qristine, dont pay any attention to THOTH, he's not an Armenian, he's an American. He doesn't understand the way we think, nor can he appreciate it. He's just a fool who spends far too much time online, never mind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 Hi Seaphan I did not say I wont marry a guy who do not belive in God in fact my dad is not beliver. But I personally think that would be great if the person that I am going to be with has faith in God. I think the reason I am here now becasue of my faith. Seaphan dont get me wrong I do not judge anyone in this world but I also can not love the people who exucuted my relatives neighbors etc...... As a 6 year old child not understanding what was war about I was unfortuanate enough to see all this cruelties that were done to Armenians and of course if we did not followed their rules we would of end up one of the people who were shut to death. SO do not get me wrong whoever proably experinced what I did would never like them I garatee you that for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 THOTH- really, if you think you're as Armenian as I am you're only fooling yourself. amot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Hi. I believe that people should marry the person they love and it does Not matter what is their ethnic background. Although it is important to keep our culture alive, it is also vital to see each other as primarily individuals. Race is a socially cronstructed category and it does Not define who we are (it only influences it). I want to marry a good person and I don't care about his race or ethnicity. I don't think that if I marry a non-Armenian person, I will less of an Armenian or the other way around.but your children will lose that identity, and then at what point do we all stop being armenian? that's why we can't marry odars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII: quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Hi. I believe that people should marry the person they love and it does Not matter what is their ethnic background. Although it is important to keep our culture alive, it is also vital to see each other as primarily individuals. Race is a socially cronstructed category and it does Not define who we are (it only influences it). I want to marry a good person and I don't care about his race or ethnicity. I don't think that if I marry a non-Armenian person, I will less of an Armenian or the other way around.but your children will lose that identity, and then at what point do we all stop being armenian? that's why we can't marry odars.Actualy, marrying odars could be better to concerve "Armenianism" because as being only 7.5 million in the world, if we could all do that, and maintain our culture and give it to other comming generations, both we will be reacher culturarly and genetically(mixing increase chances of survival of a group waiting a species), but as well we will multiply even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:THOTH- really, if you think you're as Armenian as I am you're only fooling yourself. amot.Oooooooo .... can you please post your "Armenian level evaluation function" explicitly? I have been looking for a function like that and I just can't find a good one!!!! So according to you, if we call your Armenianness function F(person) we have: F(Tigraness) > F(Thoth) Can you say anything about Thoth's Armenianness ratio, i.e: [ F(Thoth) - F(Tigraness) ] / F(Tigraness) Is it a smooth function?Is it monotonic?Is it defined everywhere? Does | F(x) - F(x) | approach 0 as x approaches Domino?Does | F(Domino) - F(Domino) | = 0 then?The last two are just meant as a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 HI Qristine. Thanks for the welcoming note!! I was brought up to believe that all Turks were bad. With the years, I have come to realize that I can not judge a person only for being a Turk. I think that I will need to know that person and his/her ideology before assuming that he/she supports acts such as the Armenian Genocide. Throughout history, what the Turks did to us was an atrocity and they need to recognize what they did as a genocide. However,we can't blame all Turkeys for what happened 100 years ago and the fact is that they have been brought up to believe that it was not a genocide (our ideas are a product of the system in which we live). Children in Turkey go to school and they are taught a different history. So can we blame them all? If you want to look at it in that way, then Native Americans should not talk to Europeans or the so called "Americans" now. Mexicans, Central Americans, and South Americans should not talk to Spaniards becuase of the past and still current colonization of their Indegenous people. At what point do we draw the line? What happened to Native Americans and Indigenous people was a genocide too, but they can't blame everybody. I completely respect your point of view and I understand your hopes of maintining the culture. Hope that you will find what will make you happy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 My my Tigrannes - is this the best you can do? So much for Christian love and acceptance. If you are what it means to be a "traditional" Armenian then it is no wonder that Diasporan Armenians are leaving in droves. Yeah - if your not lockstep your not one of us. So sad really. Now you are telling Qristine what to think. i think that maybe she can make up her mind for herself. She has already shown a much greater tolerance and insight in her positions then you ever have. With more open minded people such as her I think that there might be hope for the Diasporan community in the States - but (if all are/were) like you then I think we are only a laughingstock to outsiders and repulsive to the rest of us. BTW - I've never denied being an (assimilated) American. I am who I am - and I have no shame for it. But I am an Armenian as well - as much as you are in most any relevant respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Sip, [] Should have been absolute values. But still you should multiply this value by 100, and then substract it from 100, in order to have a % of Thoth Armenianess As for the second point, wait until I reach you Sip, a good spanking is waiting you. [ December 03, 2002, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Domino ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Loreley:I was brought up to believe that all Turks were bad. Am I the only Armenian that wasn't brought up like this??? Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 No Nairi I don't think so. No one in my extended family was indoctrinated as such - not in that way. And I personally have had (various) Turkish friends my entire life (and my sister's best friend for a while was Turkish) - so not all Armenians have been brought up such. Its funny though - sometimes my Turkish friends/aquaintences were scarred that I would just take their heads off in a rage - but they learned to distinguish my animosity towards the Young Turks/Turkey and feelings about what happened to my family from any direct ill will towards them. (though sometimes there is a certain benefit to keeping folks on their toes a bit - LOL). I think everyone has the right to be judged and dealt with as an individual. And even the Turks as a group - sure they have their faults and they have their extreme idiots/nasty examples etc - but Turks of today are pretty much just like everyone else - people trying to survive, provide for their families and enjoy life...its pretty much what it comes down to for everyone I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Thoth, how do you find so many turks in US? the only time i encountered a turk was this summer in the beach. the guy was alone and was bumping a turkish song on his mini-stereo.a few of my friends and i tried to approached the guy and make conversation, but he, who had probably already noticed that we are armenians, ran like a hell. i don't know what was the matter. probably was scared that we would throw him off the pear into the ocean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE: I think identity is like learning a language. It is always better to learn one language very well, rather than learning two languages half way.don't you think that this is a big probelm right now in US among kids born from two armenian parents? children are raised in an armenian speaking family, without any exposure to english, until the age of school.then they become ESL(english second language) students, with the first language supposedly being armenian. but they don't even know armenian properly, because they never had armenian education. then the only language they know is broken armenian. and it takes a lot of time until they start speaking proper english, falling behind other kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 the problem is that we approach this issue as though Armenia/Armenianness is a dead entity.we take on our, diasorans' shourders its preservation and survival. we, diasporans still have the Armenian deasese, tendancy to strugle to survive and preseve what we have, the way we have. we don't recognise that there is Armenia and Armenians who live just like the rest of the world, evolving and changing every day. and unfortunately we are not part of its evolution. we have made, or rather preserved, our own, diasporan Armenianness, and it's not anything like the "real" Armenianness of 21st century. we have to admit, we, diasporans are the lost cases. we are the ones that need to be "rescued" if we want to be Armenians, not the Armenianness, because Armenianness aready belongs to others, people in Armenian, and they are doing good job in its development side by side with modern world. therefore, people in diaspora tend to fall in two categories. the first group is the one that enjoys whatever kind of preserved Armenianness they were exposed to, knowing that there is an end to their being as Armenians, because the preserved Armenianness is becoming less practical every day. and they don't bother to save it for the generations to come, because it's preserved. it's useless for the future. the second group of people are those, who in contrast to the first group do whatevery it takes to save the preserved Armenianness they were exposed to for the future generations. but they don't understand that what they are giving to the future is something outdated, something that is not to be used again, something, whose "upgrade are available", among those who did a good job developing it further. the second group, which by the way probably includes me as well, divides into two subgroups itself. the first subgroup includes people who were most likely born outside Armenia. they received this canned Armenianness from their elderlies with a promise to preserve it as it is and give it to their youngsters. they do this without being aware what's the true meaning of that canned Armenianness and what they are doing this for. the second subgroup of people from group two are the ones that were born in Armenia, and who ended up outside it. they, in contrast to the first subgroup, know the contant of the canned Armenianness they brougth with them. but like the first subgroup, they do whatever it takes to pass it to the next generation. however, the problem with this subgroup is that they, unlike the first group, don't enjoy the preserved Armenianness. and unlike the first group again, they don't want to admit that there is going to be an end to their, or at least their childerns', being as Armenians. thus, in contrast to the first subgroup, this group does not pass the preserved Armenianness to the next generation for the sake of doing so, but out of the fear that there is going to be an end to their Armenianness. ===========a little observation from my side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Harut - There were several Turks in my High School when I was there and I made the effort to be friendly (and only threaten them on occasion! LOL). After I just seem to have run into Turkish folks here and there and I make it a point to be friendly and to tell them that I am Armenian etc. I don't push the Genocide issue in their face but usually I get around to it (or they do more so actually) and I try to expalin my/our position in a non (personally) acusatory way - but do not doubt that I make my views clear. Friendship - or aquaintences can be made with anyone - I don't set any racial/ethnic standards. And I have enjoyed my interactions with most all Turks I have met - our similarities are more then our differences in many ways I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Loreley:I was brought up to believe that all Turks were bad. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Am I the only Armenian that wasn't brought up like this??? Well, I was in Armenia and only 7 when the NKR independence movement began proper in 1988. So although my parents are very rational on such matters, I was a little indoctrinated thanks to mass media and other people around me. As for the Turks, there are actually a lot of them in Australia (far more than Armenians anyway), particularly in Sydney. I have only met 2 Turks (one was from Cyprus and almost had Asiatic eyes), thats about it, they keep to themslves and only a very few attend universities, most being content with opening their corner kebab shop..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:EVEN A TURK? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Love is not that blind:-))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Hi Hagarak You made my day. Hi Loreley "I was brought up to believe that all Turks were bad."What has changed your thinking I wonder? Did you fall in love one of them? "With the years, I have come to realize that I can not judge a person only for being a Turk." No one is here judging any one we are only expressing our opinions. "Children in Turkey go to school and they are taught a different history. " You are right they are teaching them how to distroy our new generation. "If you want to look at it in that way, then Native Americans should not talk to Europeans or the so called "Americans" now. Please dont even try to compare NATIVE AMERICAN situation and Armenians because they are not the same not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Hi Tigraness How are you doing? Nice seeing you in this forum. Thank you for the comments dont worry I allready know what is beside peoples minds BUT I AM NOT A PSYCHIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by QRISTINE:[QB]Hi Hagarak You made my day. No problem Aishe. Any time:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:... Please dont even try to compare NATIVE AMERICAN situation and Armenians because they are not the same not even close.Can you please elaborate? It seems to be they were also victims of genocide ... even on a much larger scale and they pretty much disappeared off the face of the earth. Thank god the Armenians genocide, as bad as it was, did not reach the magnitude that American Indians experienced. The only difference is that now in the US, the indians OWN the casinos and the Armenians GO to the casinos (Kirk K. being a big exception) ... ok, this last past is just a stupid joke which I couldn't hold inside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QRISTINE Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by QRISTINE:... Please dont even try to compare NATIVE AMERICAN situation and Armenians because they are not the same not even close.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you please elaborate? It seems to be they were also victims of genocide ... even on a much larger scale and they pretty much disappeared off the face of the earth. Thank god the Armenians genocide, as bad as it was, did not reach the magnitude that American Indians experienced. The only difference is that now in the US, the indians OWN the casinos and the Armenians GO to the casinos (Kirk K. being a big exception) ... ok, this last past is just a stupid joke which I couldn't hold inside I am so sorry Seaphan I did not know that Columbus was the one who discovered Armenia also. I guess that's how this everything started between Armenians and Turks I guess your right we have a lot in commen uppppppsssssssssssss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:I am so sorry Seaphan I did not know that Columbus was the one who discovered Armenia also. I guess that's how this everything started between Armenians and Turks I guess your right we have a lot in commen uppppppsssssssssssss Oh I see how you mean we are different! I was thinking more in terms of genocide and being raped and killed by bullies ... but yes, you are right. I guess we are very different from American Indians since they were in the American continent and we were somewhere on the other side of the globe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Its funny - I have a close relative (full blooded Armenian) who works in the Indian Health Service. Most of his co-workers and folks he comes in contact with are Native American Indians and they always ask what tribe he is affiliated with. Well - Armenian of course! They ask what tribe is that? And he then tells them about Armenians (they never have heard it seems) and how our experiences are in certain ways similar to that of the Americans Indians - outsiders/different race/religion etc come from lands far away - sweep in as if they own the place - establish themselves and then commit a genocide against the "native" people - most of the rest of the world just yawns. The big difference of course is that at least the Native American persecutions have been acknowledged and at least (in part) compensated for. Of course a lesson for us - no amount of compensation can undo the (various) damage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by gamavor: quote:Originally posted by QRISTINE:EVEN A TURK? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Love is not that blind:-)))))No - only you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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