hasmiek Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 one thing left to say; You guys may now say that I'm not a true armenian, and if you do so; fine, i won't be bothered by that. I know who I am, and no one can take that away from me. And that's what's being armenian about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hasmik, yes ankeghts urax em qez hamar, vor du yerjanik es: Du grum es." I know who I am? "- aysinqn gites, vor du HAY es: Vagh@ qo tghan kam aghjik@ qez kta mi shat sovorakan harc."Mayrik, isk yes OV em?" Du ayd harcic ches vaxenum?.. Inchu du karogh es MIANSHANAK patasxanel ayd harcin, isk qo zavakner@ petq e tanjven` pntrelov patasxan@,yev havanabar chen el gtni u kdarnan "ashxarhi qaghaqaci"? Yev inchu petq e Hay@ yerjanik lini, yerb nra hogum der antagh merelner kan? _____________ SAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hasmiek - what a nice (and very appropriate/informative0 story for us all. Thank you for sharing it with us. And the best of luck to you - it sounds like you will be a great wife/mother/huamn being. Only the best for you. I am an American of 1/2 Armenian decsent. I never had oppurtunity to learn Armenian or such (as a child) - though I wish that I had - but even with the oppurtunity as an adult I have not taken it. I still see myself as Armenian (very much) and think I understand (most all) of the things that make one an Armenian - even if I do not participate in all of them. Certainly not knowing the language is a huge issue - and its great for you that you do. But you are another example of the fact that Armenians can be diverse and still Armenain - I think that this is a very good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:[QB]When I was 18 I graduated from school, and I went to an university in another city to escape from my parents. This is still one of the best decisions I ever made; I started to do everything I always wanted, and no one could stop me, even not my family. And guess what, I didn't end up pregnant, on drugs, as a prostitute, dead or anything else that horrifies parents[QB]Hasmiek, have you ever thought about this more seriously? don't you think that the reasons for not ending up pregnant, on drugs,... were your strict parents, or the envirment you grew up (your parents' home)?i cannot tell for sure, but as i can see from your story those things, that i mentioned above, should have had a huge impact on your life. and why not, maybe there were the main reasons for you to have the great life you enjoy now.take care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellie Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Gr. Mamigonian:No, you got it misunderstood.The guy said his sister is dating a Christian. He still believes in Jesus and God, just like we do. It's the color thing, man. We all know it. I know from personal experience how exclusive Armenian church and community is towards members marrying out, especially when it is an Armenian girl marrying a non-white person. They see this like an ultimate betrayal. Most will shun her. I, personally have nothing against it as long as we don't marry with losers, convicts, gangbangers, drug addicts and non-intelligent folk. Don't hinder true love. If she found it, let her have it. I don't understand this whole issue about true love. You guys actually believe in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 he there of course my parents still had an influence on my life; I never stopped talking to them, and I always knew their opinion on stuff that I was planning to do, i just did not let their opinions lead my choises. And SAS....i didn't understand some words (I think their are in east armenian, and i'm not ecxperienced in speaking that); Who doesn't ask him/her self who he or she is once in a while. Being a halfbreed may be of an influence in this, but being a whole armenian is no reason to not feel uncertain and lost. I have felt like that for years, while living with my parents, and while living alone. This feeling lost and not knowing who you are can also be a good basis of shaping yourself and finding yourself; it just depends on how you see it...I hope my future kids will find themselves and build their own life, without forgetting their armenian heritage, but it has to be their choise. And if they have questions or need my help I will be there for them, like any mom would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellie Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Inter-racial marriages? tough topic for discussion. Everybody has their own opinion according to their own personal experiences, however, there are certain points on which I believe (or at least I wish) that we can all agree on.First of all, for all the reasons that everybody has so far come up with, we can all come to the conclusion that inter-racial marriages can have a lot of problems. Problems concerning future kids and family, problems concerning the future of Armenia, and so forth. So, it is my belief that while we shouldn't encourage our youth to marry non-Armenians, we also shouldn't make their life a living hell if they do. simple reason, everybody is here to live their own life, nobody (except parents and family to a certain extent) have the right to interfere. Afterall, we're all just humans, descendants of a common ancestor.About that "take one heritage and leave the other one". It's insane. If children of inter-racial unions have to chose only 1/2 of their heritage, then they are denying the other half, or in other words, they're denying their whole identity.I personally would never marry anybody that's not Armenian,(especially somebody that's not Caucasian). My reasons probably differ from everybody else's. First of all, I worry that Armenia will vanish if we all intermix. I'm trying to do my part. Second, I am (and most Armenians are) very close with not only immediate, but also with extended family. I could not marry a Chinese, because (some of you may laugh at me), my grandpa and his grandpa would not be able to communicate. I believe that marriage is not only between two individuals, but between two families.As far as the Armenian language is concerned. If you want to be a real Armenian, you should learn to speak the language. It helps to learn about the culture, about it's history, customs, etc. if you can read Armenian literature. We have some wonderful works by brilliant ARmenian authors, what a shame if certain Armenians can't read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 nelle, i'm afraid this guy is right. If an armenian girl dates-marries a non white person she is really looked at as a prostitute. I have a friend who had a black boyfriend when she was 17 (a kid), now it's ten years later, and people still remember that and put it against her. armenians seem to have a good memory... I agree with him that love, kindness and respect for eachother are the most important things in a relationship, and skincolor has nothing to do with that. and if you find that in a person, you can call yourself pretty luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arshak Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 We are ONE! [ December 19, 2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Arshak ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 One only has to realize all of our human differances are artificial.Geneticly we are all the same.The differances are due to geography.There are no human hybreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 No excuse at all whatsoever to date outside of the race. What is it with people looking for assimilation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 Tigrannes III, It is usually Armenians with an attitude like yours that are pushing fellow Armenains out of the community and therefore encourging them to marry odars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:No excuse at all whatsoever to date outside of the race. What is it with people looking for assimilation?Funny coming from you...wonder what your father's excuse was? Lucky for you he was not so closed minded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elesarus Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 This question has many sides and I don't think that any individual opinion is right or wrong. each person has his mentality and his own way of thinking.I think this question can have several approaches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehderian Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 The simple fact is this: there is no such thing as a "interracial marriage". That's because there is no such thing as a "pure race". Does anyone here really believe that they have no genes which did not come from Haik himself? Or that members of the Armenian nation never married outside their borders until the twentieth century? I have ancestors from many nations; Armenia, Germany, England, and America(pre-Columbian). I do not, however, refer to myself as "half this" or a "quarter that". I am one whole man, regardless of the genes that went into my cells. There is no doubt that I am a proud Armenian, I would not be on this forum otherwise, and I can tell you that Armenian culture and identity lives in me to a far greater extent than in some who claim "pure" ancestry. Culture is about who you are. Perhaps Americans, of which I am one, can apreciate this better than can most of the rest of the world. Here we have people of hundreds of nations who, without compromising the culture of their fathers and grandfathers, proudly ally themselves with their neighbors by calling themselves Americans. If anyone thinks that they are of pure race, it is only because they haven't traced their lineage back far enough to learn the truth. I have dated women with many different heritages, and when I finally find the one that I will marry, regardless of her color, I know that my children will be Armenian. -Mehderian"Si Deus pro nobis quis contra nos?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Mehderian - very well said. I think if the culture has intrinsic value it will survive - if it does not - it will not. I see nothing (inherrently) wrong with holding to traditional ways (in most things) nor with marying within ones culture - in fact I think its great. I also think there are positive aspects of intermarrraige betwen "race" and culture, because, as you have said (more or less) - we are all one people (in a sense). The sooner we learn to appreciate one another the sooner we will stop killing one another. Those who only advocate marrying (or even just dating) within ones own race/culture are also (often) just the sort that advocate killing (or otherwise denigrating) others because they practice different customs, look differently, or are otherwise "not like us". And we have quite enouth (too much) of this already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Follow on to above post (of mine): I do beleive that the Armenian culture has intrinsic value and that it will survive (Westernization/assimilation)...in some form (as it has survived everything else...much tougher even then this). I think there are more fundemental things for (Diaspora)Armenians to be concerned with. One is the fate of their brethern in Armenia which is in a really percarious situation and needs our help - and as a rallying point is good for maintaining Armenian awareness in the Diaspora. Another problem i see is with the Armenian Church(s)...by and large they suck! (and this is not so much my opinion as my observation and from much talk with friends and reletives who do attend and are active with various Armenian and other (having chosen to leave the Armenian congregation) churches. I beleive the Arnmenian churches have a great deal of necessary reform that they are avoiding. They are loosing/have lost (much of) their relevancy and there is the problem of the supply of priests - particularly here in the States (but I think in Europe too)....(so perhaps every Armenian in Armenia can becaome a priest and supply the world...essentially what is happening...good for job prospects - but bad for the church in the Diaspora - these guys are frequently like our budy Arthur - they are out of touch)...lets see - other problems - there are many I supose - but nmost of you probably know these better then I. It is just my opinion that too much concern is placed over this idea of assimilation - a problem that you really cannot do anything (effective/directly) about. It is going to happen to a certain extent - this is inevitable (and is not necissarily a bad thing either - for a number of reasons). What I am saying is that I think there are more direct problems in the Diaspora/community that require dealing with - as opposed to wasrting breath concerning something you will have little success with....(something like me trying to convince Turks concerning the Genocide I guess...LOL...but I actually have had [at least some] sucess there...and I would hope the momentum is in my favor...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboyan Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 i am dating an american girl right now. i think that it is good that you r dating someone asi as well as your sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteangel Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 It comes down to basics. We can't stop people from love and we cannot stop people from loving their nation and culture either. It depends on what you value more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Follow on to above post (of mine):I do beleive that the Armenian culture has intrinsic value and that it will survive (Westernization/assimilation)...in some form (as it has survived everything else...much tougher even then this). I think there are more fundemental things for (Diaspora)Armenians to be concerned with. One is the fate of their brethern in Armenia which is in a really percarious situation and needs our help - and as a rallying point is good for maintaining Armenian awareness in the Diaspora. Another problem i see is with the Armenian Church(s)...by and large they suck! (and this is not so much my opinion as my observation and from much talk with friends and reletives who do attend and are active with various Armenian and other (having chosen to leave the Armenian congregation) churches. I beleive the Arnmenian churches have a great deal of necessary reform that they are avoiding. They are loosing/have lost (much of) their relevancy and there is the problem of the supply of priests - particularly here in the States (but I think in Europe too)....(so perhaps every Armenian in Armenia can becaome a priest and supply the world...essentially what is happening...good for job prospects - but bad for the church in the Diaspora - these guys are frequently like our budy Arthur - they are out of touch)...lets see - other problems - there are many I supose - but nmost of you probably know these better then I. It is just my opinion that too much concern is placed over this idea of assimilation - a problem that you really cannot do anything (effective/directly) about. It is going to happen to a certain extent - this is inevitable (and is not necissarily a bad thing either - for a number of reasons). What I am saying is that I think there are more direct problems in the Diaspora/community that require dealing with - as opposed to wasrting breath concerning something you will have little success with....(something like me trying to convince Turks concerning the Genocide I guess...LOL...but I actually have had [at least some] sucess there...and I would hope the momentum is in my favor...)who are you to talk about Armenian culture? Just who are you to even have positions on these issues? You are an American- not an Armenian. Go ahead and try to say that my mother is American- she's more Armenian than half the people on these forums.As for the priests..... hmmm, maybe they preach what they're supposed to preach? Ever think about that. Now stop advocating things that our culture doesn't approve of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 Rich - By your definition your father should never have dated your mother. Are you now telling us there are exceptions to this rule? Could you please define the exact circumstances of acceptability for an Armenian to date outside of the "race".... Your post has nothing to do with the point I have made. And who are you to claim a monopoly on what it is to be Armenian. I bet my Shish Kebab and Pilaf blow yours away any day. And BTW - my non-Armenian wife makes a fine paklava. i must admit I am the Pilaf make of the family - though her Persian rice is unbeatable - and I can't seem to be able to duplicate it. I also have a fine collection of Armenian carpets, ceramics, music and other items in my home. I follow Armenian political issues and am a staunch advocate of Genocide recognition - on the net or otherwise. No one who ever meets me - even when I travel to Turkey - has any doubt that my heritage is Armenian. So please refrain from telling me what I am or am not qualified or eligible to comment on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Rich -By your definition your father should never have dated your mother. Are you now telling us there are exceptions to this rule? Could you please define the exact circumstances of acceptability for an Armenian to date outside of the "race"....Your post has nothing to do with the point I have made.And who are you to claim a monopoly on what it is to be Armenian. I bet my Shish Kebab and Pilaf blow yours away any day. And BTW - my non-Armenian wife makes a fine paklava. i must admit I am the Pilaf make of the family - though her Persian rice is unbeatable - and I can't seem to be able to duplicate it. I also have a fine collection of Armenian carpets, ceramics, music and other items in my home. I follow Armenian political issues and am a staunch advocate of Genocide recognition - on the net or otherwise. No one who ever meets me - even when I travel to Turkey - has any doubt that my heritage is Armenian. So please refrain from telling me what I am or am not qualified or eligible to comment on...If I have to be a hypocrite to love my mother so be it. I'm sorry you can't see that. I, for one, will never be with an odar and all Armenians should be the same. You obviously failed that test.As for your culture? You're an atheist, a liberal, and advocate pre-marrital sex. You really have no business flooding this forum with your filth.Food doesn't mean anything. Is she in the church even? Oh wait, you're not even in the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:If I have to be a hypocrite to love my mother so be it. I'm sorry you can't see that. No I do see it - you are being a hypocrite...and a fool. quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:I, for one, will never be with an odar and all Armenians should be the same. You obviously failed that test.Your choice. One day you may wonder - looking back at your life - at the choices you made - and rthe limitations you placed upon yourself - if some oppurtunity for happiness or a fulfiling life of some sort may have passed you by (or vice versa). I'm not saying it will come to this - and for your sake I hope your choices work out for you, just...you never know sometime... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:As for your culture? You're an atheist, a liberal, and advocate pre-marrital sex. You really have no business flooding this forum with your filth.Well I have plenty of company (here and among Armenians in general). Who are you to determine what is my business and what the business of this forum must be. Please refeer me to the forum guidelines that specify the limits of allowable political, religious, etc belief and expression....And how dare you characterize my views as filfth. They are nothing of the kind I am an extremely moral and upright person. And my virews are very consistent with those of the founding fathers of our great nation. As such i may not practice certain behaviors etc - but I will certainly defend the rights of those to do such without interference. In addition, I advocate pre-maritial sex for some very good reasons - and I utterly reject your contention that there is in any way something immoral in such. Sex in general is a great and wonderful thing - it is something that ties us to nature and to the ways of our fellow creatures on the planet. I reject the belief that we must shun our natural behaviors to appease some prudish "other" being who demands such from us for largely (IMO) no longer relevant reasons. At the same time I respect the decision of anyone who chooses such for themselves - it is their body, their life and their choice. In my religion (Daoism) you must go with thoughts/behaviors/actions that are correct/natural for you - without applying artificial restrainst/conditions (as from outside influences...such as peer pressure etc) quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Food doesn't mean anything. Au contraire - food is the essence of life. If I were like you - overly judgemental and narrowminded - I might claim that if you can't cook Armenian you aren't Armenian. But I would never presume to judge others in such a way...and I find it humourous ( but also sad) that you attempt to do so. Please worry about yourself and not the behaviors/activities of others quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Is she in the church even? Oh wait, you're not even in the church. Unlike you I am not hypocrite. I imagine I could join a parrish for the social aspect (and I/we do participate, to a limited degree, in the social aspects of our local Armenian church...but I am not a Christian - I have other beliefs. Do you wish me to list some of the names of famous Armenians who do not attend Armenian Church etc..? Somhow I think there are manynames who you proudly claim as Armenian to Odars...You speak of Armenian traditions etc - yet you seem unaware of the history of diversity/adaptation among our people. While sticking to our traditions/beliefs has been a pillar of strength for us in certain situations in the past - I would argue that beaing able to adapt to the circumstancesx has played (at least) an equal role in the survival of our people. And in general time does not stand still. You exhibit no understanding of this fact. Change is inevitable. It is those who cannot change/adapt to change who become extinct. Think about it.My previous comments were meant seriously - I really think that the Armenian Diaspora (and otherwise) commuity has some very serious issues to deal with - that they largely are not (it seems to me). This over concern regarding assimilation is wasted effort IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_dream Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 quoteGeneticly we are all the same.The differances are due to geography.There are no human hybreds Yes we are all the same...the point that I'm trying to make is that if people want the Armenian race to "survive" then they should marry within their own race...well think of all of the ancient races that existed...they intermarried, etc....and years after, their customs, traditions... everything died out...that was my whole point...and it's not because I'm narrow-minded, I'm pretty liberal but when it comes to being an ARmenian I wont substitute any piece of it for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Lucid_dream:think of all of the ancient races that existed...they intermarried, etc....and years after, their customs, traditions... everything died out...Most of these "ancient races" had more problems then just intermarriage - most were overun and put to the sword. Well, Armenians already survived and persevered through the worst of that - even if diminished and ousted from our homeland...You must not forget that we are in an entirely new era. Communications is worldwide (& instantaneous), history/human events is/are digitized (and perserved), and what it means to be human is rapidly changing (in a great many ways) - the idea of race and (specific) culture (in isolation) is erroding for all peoples - not just for Armenians. We may not like it (though I suspect that our racial/cultural distinctions still have a few more generations at the very least...), but unless there is a worldwide political/economic collapse/devastating war etc - that drives people apart again (and toward the primitve) - I don't see it as very likely that the current trends will change. By all means you should hold onto the aspects of your culture that are meaningful (to you) and worthwhile. If others do the same (in varrying degrees) then it will survive...(and your children and theirs may well still think themselves Armenian...[as I do]) but you must not expect that it (society)/you (Armenians) will not change and that you can hope to truly forestall the dominant culture of the day (from being adopted by those exposed to it). At the same time all the cultures that comprise the West and the world are still a part of it - to varrying degrees - and many of thier ways are adopted and assimilated as well - the West too has changed and is changing (ever more rapidly...).But if being Armenian is indeed worthwhile in any/some way (and I think that it is) - then our distinctivenes will survive (again - at some level). But time will never stand still...in fact it moves more rapidly then ever.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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