My sister dating outside race

[Guest]

I don't come from a typical traditional Armenian family. My parents are quite liberal. The thing is that my younger sis has been dating this American-born Chinese man for quite awhile. He is Christian, so that settles the religion thing. I have to say that he is a very nice individual and would be a nice companion for any woman. My parents have nothing to say about this either. He does seem interested in our culture. I've been sharing it with him and he shares a little of his to us as well. I know that other Armenians will never accept this union and reject my sis and her future children if they are married. But, me and my family will never try and stop her own happiness and future. It's not right. I don't care what others say. I am dating an Asian woman also. I find them, esp. Chinese to share many of the same characteristics as we have (ambition, family, brilliance). We are compatible. I come to this forum and find so many who are mixed as well and can claim to be Armenians with pride! I also find some posting by Mr. Mamigonian that states his Chinese ancestors! This really saved my family and my sis's boyfriend a lot of second thoughts. At least, we have a connection? I am not ashamed for sharing this story.

[Guest]

Look here

http://armenians.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000100.html

[Guest]

How many men did you sister date???

 

Maybe it is just for fun.

Myabe after this chinese guy she will find a nice armenian guy... you never know...

 

 

Ammaaan.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 28, 2000).]

[Guest]

As you can tell by my user name, I am half Armenian. There are many other Half Breeds on this forum ,though I must say for most, both sides are racially Caucasian (though with me I have 1/16 Asiatic-American Indian Blood). I say we are the new reality of the Armenian race, and you people have to deal with it. This trend can go either way, the eventual disappearance of Armenians, or the emergence of a new type of Armenian, mixed but still Armenian in his/her core. But this doesn't mean I reject my other heritage, in fact I am very much interested in the American Indian part of me, though it is only a small fraction. This is what is so hard for many Pure Armos to accept, they feel that only marrying Armenians will preserve Armenian identity, I say not so! Look at me and Mike and Kazza. Artur I hope one day you fall madly in love with an Odar girl!! LOL!

[Guest]

Shvi player,

 

You and your sister have my blessings! It's about time we move past the Genocide mentality. I just want to ask other Armenians: "If we were not 10 million worldwide, and 60 million, --would we be more willing and less concerned to see our sisters and daughters marry odars?" Who says that mixed offspring cannot be geniune Armenians?

 

Who ever questions Pushkin's ancestry? Yet, few know that he has black blood in him. Russians still revere him as if he were the nation's lost soul. And, look no further than my own ancestry? Yes, Armenians don't want to admit it, but Vardan Mamigonian's lineage claims descent from Chenbakur (Chinese emperors). There you have it! I hope your sister and her boyfriend can use my ancestry as an example to further build on China's 2,000 year relation with Armenians. You guys can set more patterns. Perhaps, a future Vardan Mamigonian may arise? If you want, I can hook you 2 up with a Chinese discussion forum that I am visiting daily? The people there have embraced me, although I have yet to learn more about their (actually my own too) culture. Wish you two the best!

 

We are all from Chenbakur!

[Guest]

Steve, i've got nothing against people who merry other nation. Even though, i think that armenian girl is the one for an armenian guy. You never know, love is... (different topic). The point here is dating before marriage many times... I think if a person talks about his sister dating some guy, so easy and free, like it should be this way, then it means he cares about his and her armenianess more than his sister.

 

I swear i'd kill the guy who comes closer than 2 meters to my sister!

 

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 28, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Artur:
I swear i'd kill the guy who comes closer than 2 meters to my sister!

---

Imagine how you'll feel if you have a daughter someday! Makes me kind of glad I do not have one--every guy would have to go through a CIA/KGB-type screening process!

[Guest]

to all,

 

Those of you who who belongs to Armenian Apostolic church may be interested to know the church's opinion on the mixed marriages issue. Those of you who dont care what the church has to say about it, I still recomend reading this article that I am borrowing from http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/religion/s...raments_p1.html.

 

Mixed Marriages

 

It is an undeniable fact that the more the number of common denominators between individuals entering into the marriage bond, the greater are the probabilities that they may enjoy a peaceful and harmonious life together. Certainly, sharing the same faith and traditions can spare them from many serious problems and strengthen their family ties.

 

If we consider the theology, teachings and didactic concerns relate to the Marriage Sacrament of the Armenian Apostolic Church, and realize that the Church represents a unity in terms of its doctrine and mission, then we may understand that the Church cannot put itself in a contradictory position, i.e., preach the faithfulness of our beliefs on one hand, and preach the eternality of the same beliefs on the other. Therefore, it should be clear to all, as to why the Armenian Church does not, and cannot, encourage mixed marriages between and Armenian Apostolic and a non-Christian to be absolutely impossible. This is not a matter of prejudice and/or unfair discrimination, but rather, it reflects the principles of remaining faithful to our faith.

 

If we confess that the utmost objective of the Marriage Sacrament is to view the union of marriage as an integral part of our faith in Christ, which is expressed by the participation of the couple in the life of the Church, that is, the body of Christ, then it becomes clear that the participation of an individual outside of our faith, or religion in the Marriage Sacrament can ultimately be destructive to the integrity of the Church¡¦s doctrines as well as to the self-respect and dignity of the non-Apostolic believer.

 

All the sacraments of our Church, including marriage, originate with the Sacrament of Baptism. Therefore, it is an absolute prerequisite for marriage that both candidates be Christian believers, baptized and confirmed in the name of the Holy trinity, for they are called upon to be the people of God and members of the Church. Those who are fundamentally opposed to the beliefs, doctrine and mission of the church, should not choose ecclesiastical marriage as the means of commencing their conjugal life.

 

When we look upon the issue in its literal context, the only "mixed marriage", which can take place within the Armenian Church is the one between an Armenian Apostolic and person belonging to a non-Armenian Apostolic Church.

 

The Armenian Apostolic Church considers Churches as Christian and orthodox if they specifically confess the Divinity of the Holy Trinity, believe in the perfection and unity of the Divine and human natures of Christ and use the formula, "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" during baptism.

 

As stated, the Armenian Church does not encourage such mixed marriages; nevertheless, it does not refuse to perform them either, since, in terms of its mission, it must care for the spiritual well-being of the Christian believers. At the same time, it is thought that the non-Armenian Apostolic Christian can share the ecclesiastical Sacrament to a certain extent without being unfaithful to his/her church and beliefs.

 

This "deviation" from the accepted ways, in ecclesiastical terms, is called "economy", i.e. to utilize the Church¡¦s mission with hope for the future.

 

It must be clear, however, that the participation of a non-Armenian Apostolic in the rite of the Marriage Sacrament of the Armenian Church does not result in automatic change in the confession of faith of the individual; nor does it grant him/her the right to participate in other sacraments of the Armenian Church.

 

Often, however, after acquaintance and some deliberations, the Candidate may wish to accept the Armenian Apostolicism, either prior to the exchange of the martial vows or subsequently. In such cases, the wish of the candidate is naturally granted, once he/she has received the necessary doctrinal instructions.

 

In any event, the Armenian Church does not force, nor does it exert pressure on others to accept Armenian Apostolicism. The candidates are accepted within the Church only when they apply for it by their own free will.

 

There are three classifications of mixed marriages in general, non-theological sense of the word:

 

¡P Individuals from non-Christian religious or heretical sects;

 

¡P Individuals from non-Apostolic Christian Churches;

 

¡P Individuals from other Apostolic Christian Churches.

 

The Armenian Apostolic Church blesses the Sacrament of Marriage between an individual of these classifications and an Armenian Apostolic after the following conditions have been met.

 

Individuals of non-Christian religious and/or heretical sects:

 

¡P Marriage between an Armenian Apostolic and a non-Christian is prohibited as long as the latter has not expressed the desire to accept our Church¡¦s confession of faith, baptism and mission through its sacraments, by his/her own free will in an explicit manner.

 

¡P The following are regarded as non-Christian and heretical; Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Taoism, Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Fetishism, Naturalism, and Atheism. Among the schismatic faiths are Mormonism, Jehovah¡¦s Witness, Scientology, Christian Scientist, Salvation Army, Quakers, etc.

 

¡P First, these individuals should express their desire to become a member of our Church, then receive serious instructions in its catechism, accept its rites, get baptized, and, in this way, obtain membership in the Armenian Church under the supervision of the Pastor.

 

¡P In such cases, the candidates are required to confirm, with a written promise, that they shall raise and instruct their children in accordance to the doctrines and teachings of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Individuals belonging to non-Apostolic Churches:

 

¡P By the term "non-Apostolic", we refer to those Christian Churches, which were not founded by the apostles, and by their doctrines they deviate from the teachings of the churches founded on Apostolic traditions, particularly, in their perception and priesthood. By non-Apostolic churches in general we understand the traditional Protestant or Evangelical churches, such as Lutheran, Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.

 

¡P In this case as well, the marriage of an Armenian Apostolic to a non-Apostolic individual is prohibited in the Armenian Church and according to its rites, as long as the individual doesn¡¦t express the desire to accept our Church¡¦s confession of faith in an unsolicited and explicit manner, acting on his/her own free will.

 

¡P These individuals should also be instructed in the catechism of the Armenian Church and accept its doctrine. If they are baptized, they must be confirmed and take communion according to the rite of the Armenian Church and, in this way, obtain membership in the Armenian Church, under the supervision of the pastor.

 

In such cases, the candidates are required to give a written promise, that they will raise and bring up their children according to the doctrines and teachings of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Individuals belonging to other Apostolic Churches:

 

¡P By "Apostolic Church", we mean all those churches which are considered to have originated through apostolic tradition and which accept the Holy Trinity, the Nicene Creed, the Church¡¦s seven sacraments and the Church¡¦s hierarchy.

 

Those classified as Apostolic Churches are: the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church.

 

¡P As stated above, the greater the common bonds existing between the two candidates for marriage, the higher the probability for a more solid marriage. However, when an Armenian Apostolic and a non-Armenian Apostolic decide to get married, the Armenian Church will grant their wish, after examining and satisfying the following conditions:

 

o Verify and confirm that the non-Armenian Apostolic candidate has been baptized and confirmed by his/her church and/or administer whatever is necessary and proper.

 

o Acquaint him/her with the doctrine and history of the Armenian Church.

 

o Enroll him/her as a member of the Church, upon his/her request.

 

o Receive assurance that, after the wedding the children will be brought up and educated in accordance to the teachings of the Armenian Church.

 

Forbidden marriages according to the Canon regarding incest:

 

¡P Parents with their own children, grandchildren or great grandchildren

 

¡P Brothers and sisters with each other.

 

¡P Uncles and aunts with nieces and nephews

¡P Cousins

 

¡P Foster parents with foster children

 

¡P Foster children with the children of foster parents

 

¡P Godfathers with goddaughters

 

¡P Godfathers with the mothers of their godsons

 

¡P Godchildren with the children of their godfather

 

¡P Godmothers with their godsons

 

¡P Godmothers with the father of godsons

 

¡P Brothers-in-law with sisters-in-law

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by surorus (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Guest]

Almost all Armenians opposed to intermarriages with odars give an ethnic/racial reason, not church doctrines. I suppose the lowest acceptable odar suitors are whites? Non-whites are virtually unthinkable.

 

I feel sorry for Shvi player and his sister.

Hang in there. Realize that love is stronger than hate. Love and happiness is all that counts in the one life we have to live in this world, not racial or ethnic pride. If the Armenian church does not accept your sister for marrying a Chinese man, then why not join his church instead?

 

And, don't feel intimidated.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gr. Mamigonian:

If the Armenian church does not accept your sister for marrying a Chinese man, then why not join his church instead?

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Is this some kind of joke???

[Guest]

No, you got it misunderstood.

 

The guy said his sister is dating a Christian. He still believes in Jesus and God, just like we do. It's the color thing, man. We all know it. I know from personal experience how exclusive Armenian church and community is towards members marrying out, especially when it is an Armenian girl marrying a non-white person. They see this like an ultimate betrayal. Most will shun her. I, personally have nothing against it as long as we don't marry with losers, convicts, gangbangers, drug addicts and non-intelligent folk. Don't hinder true love. If she found it, let her have it.

 

I know why Shvi player is reluctant to respond? We all probably scared the s**t out of him.

[Guest]

Gr. jan, don't bother trying to convince the traditionalists about mixed marriages, I have tried to, and they are extremely stubborn. I am not saying mixed marriages should be entered into lightly, they shouldn't. A lot of thought must be given to the possibility of problems. But I think if each spouse is dedicated to learning about the other's culture, respecting it, and promising to raise children they may have(not everyone who marries necessarily has kids, that is something that is often overlooked in these continuous debates we have about this topic), with both cultures, I think there is a possibility of enriching each other, rather than a "one of us must give up our culture" attitude. If God ever grants me that Armenian-Irish-Indian soulmate and we have kids, I will make sure they wear Chocktaw garb when we go to the Armenian Church , just to ruffle the feathers of the dour faced mayriks!

[Guest]

You know, the funny thing is that if you carefully examine Armenian history, we were never as closed-minded as we are now. The kings (Arshakuni, Ashkani-in Farsi) were of Iranian descent. Many naharar families were non-Armenian and non-Indo European descent. We did embrace diversity in the past.

 

It's only that Muslim invasions and of course, the tragic event of the century (Genocide) that made us more insulated and reactionary. In a way, we are like what the Jews are going through right now. Many of us want to be self-protective of our small and dwindling numbers. But, I just have the feeling, that if we were 60 million (Turkey's current population), we would still be reluctant to open to outsiders. Marriage is something between 2 individuals first and only. Family and community should not cut into this. I'm not against intermarriage. I'm just against marrying the wrong type of individuals (e.g. no jobs, no education, no ambitions, no manners, etc.).

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Half Breed:
Gr. jan, don't bother trying to convince the traditionalists about mixed marriages, I have tried to, and they are extremely stubborn. I am not saying mixed marriages should be entered into lightly, they shouldn't. A lot of thought must be given to the possibility of problems. But I think if each spouse is dedicated to learning about the other's culture, respecting it, and promising to raise children they may have(not everyone who marries necessarily has kids, that is something that is often overlooked in these continuous debates we have about this topic), with both cultures, I think there is a possibility of enriching each other, rather than a "one of us must give up our culture" attitude. If God ever grants me that Armenian-Irish-Indian soulmate and we have kids, I will make sure they wear Chocktaw garb when we go to the Armenian Church , just to ruffle the feathers of the dour faced mayriks!

---

I agree TOTALLY.

Everybody, read this post and LEARN, Because this is what I have been trying to tell the hye forum ever since I joined. I don't agree with the blase' attitude that some enter mixed marriages without even discussing it properly. THAT'S how you get the screwed kids ("the mixed nuts" as Wesley Snipes put it in some film about mixed relationships that he did) but not by the marriages themselves.
On a personal note I have two heriatges, and I never could figure out this "take one leave the other" attitude that some are so seemingly obssesed with. I feel that I am very Lucky to have them both to learn from. I think that if I was whole something I would be jealous and want to be half something too.
The way I am is that I am greek, love greek culture, love my greek family, la la de da, but feel the same about my Armenian side!!! Why should there just be one or the other to be a "good" one or the other?
I really am not trying to be rude or forward but sometimes the Hay people really get me mad with all this because to be honest. I dont find this "nothing could be worse than marrying an odar I'm never speaking to you ever again" attitude anywhere else, except mabye with Jewish people. I mean, look at my best friend from primary school. One English parent, on Jamaican parent, and her and her siblings are the most well adjusted, lovely kids in the world! And they have both their cultures and dont deny any of them!

[Guest]

Since I,m half Armenian, 1/4 Austrian, 1/4 Romanian; I'm probably prejudiced. I grew up being chided and devastated by my Romanian neighbors and my Armenian family as being a "mongrol". Howver I now revel in my diversity. My grandparents who were "pure blooded" Armenians did not speak Armenian. Yet I compensated by learning both dialects and to read and write. I also took the time to learm german so now I'm multicultural.

I do consider myself Armenian and I must admit that I love the most, the nationality that accepts me the least.

having gotten this off my chest, I would like to challenge you with the folowing observation. have you noticed when you go to the armenian church how different we look from one another? In fact Armenians tend to look more like their neighboring populations than themselves.

But what is the armenian Genotype?

Surely the Irish sort of look alike, the germans share common traits, But the Armenians don't have a common look about them. Surely the blond blue eyed vanetzi looks nothing like the Semmitic looking ones from the Arab conquest areas. The Giligiatzi with their light skin, blue eyes and medium stature lok more like the central European Crusaders that they mingled with. I see Monglian features, Tall slender semitic features, Hindu features, Nordic(keltic) features etc. For centuries the Armenian married the Kurd, the Persian, the Arab, the Slav, the Georgian, the Roman, the Greek, the Mongol, the Hun and (ugh) the Turk. Lets not forget the doctrine of "prima nocte" For those of you who are not history buffs: The local prince allways could invoke the right to have any subjects bride in his harem her first wedding night.

Historians are very clear when describing the origins of the Armenian people. we are a mixture of many peoples.

So today, we are faced with 50% intermarriage rate. After mixing with Kurds and Turks, etc., what's wrong with a little Irish, Scotch, French, English or German blood?

We should accept "Odars" in our race with open arms, and induce them in wanting to be part of us rather than shunning and fingerpointing. If we intermarry and retain our culture, then we are a success story. If we marry Armenians and loose the language and the culture, what good is dying out a "pure race"?

The reason a small tribe of no more than 100,000 strong, that came to our realm with no music, no alfabet,copulating and defacating on their horsebacks, could grow into 60 million is their willingness to accept all.

We should immitate what works.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Edward Demiraiakian:


1."The reason a small tribe of no more than 100,000 strong, that came to our realm with no music, no alfabet,copulating and defacating on their horsebacks, could grow into 60 million is their willingness to accept all..."

2.We should immitate what works.

---

1. Let me continue this sentence by adding:"...and inforce their LANGUAGE (no matter accepting lot of words and alphabet from the others), RELIGION (no matter taken form Arabs) and STATE POLICY on them. The reason they reached their goal is that every one of the "all" they accepted, identifies himself as "Turk" now. If all the future mixed Armenians identify themselves as Armenians, speak Armenian, accept the same religion and state policy we can do it as effective as the Turks did.

2.Yes, but we should immitate it right the same way.

P.S. Sorry, I replied very late. I hope you still read the forum postings. That was a very insightful info I couldn't pass by.

[Guest]

ArTuR

I tOtAlY aGrEe WiTh You ArMeNiAn GirL sHouLd OnLy mArRy ArMeNiAn GUyS!! Im NOt SaYiNg ThiS bEcAuSe Im PrEjUdIcE oR aNyThiNg I mEaN i HaVe A LoT oF rUsSiAn BlAcK mExIcAn FrIeNdS bUt I wOUlD nEvEr EvEr EvEn ThiNk AbOuT mArRyInG oNe Of ThEm!!

[Guest]

Pstlik e Bayts Jstlik e

[Guest]

no matter the religion or the armenian blood rate in his veins,if u call yourself armenian'u r armenian'.

there's a truth we shall never forget,turks came to anatolia with only 10 thousand soldiers and as conquering anatolia they mixed up with kurds,persians also armenians!who can deny this?

during ottoman empire people were not classified by their race,but by their religion!if u get muslim u'd get more rights so many armenians did that.do u know the town

'hemshin'in turkey?they r 100 percent armenians but they r muslim,and untill they watched an asala member on tv they even didnt know the language they were speaking!.but when they watched him they were surprised and understood their race....' a town of muslim armenians!!!!!'.i said they r 100 percent armenian because as i've read on a newspaper

they tell other villagers stay apart from them because they dont understand what they speak.so arent they armenian???

we're not dogs to compare our breed,1 percent or 100 percent..if u feel yourself armenian u r.it's for sure that all diaspora has different races in his roots.weren't all your grandparents living in ottoman empire?so all u have persian,kurdish,christian syrian,even turkish blood.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by shvi player:
I don't come from a typical traditional Armenian family. My parents are quite liberal. The thing is that my younger sis has been dating this American-born Chinese man for quite awhile. He is Christian, so that settles the religion thing. I have to say that he is a very nice individual and would be a nice companion for any woman. My parents have nothing to say about this either. He does seem interested in our culture. I've been sharing it with him and he shares a little of his to us as well. I know that other Armenians will never accept this union and reject my sis and her future children if they are married. But, me and my family will never try and stop her own happiness and future. It's not right. I don't care what others say. I am dating an Asian woman also. I find them, esp. Chinese to share many of the same characteristics as we have (ambition, family, brilliance). We are compatible. I come to this forum and find so many who are mixed as well and can claim to be Armenians with pride! I also find some posting by Mr. Mamigonian that states his Chinese ancestors! This really saved my family and my sis's boyfriend a lot of second thoughts. At least, we have a connection? I am not ashamed for sharing this story.

---

Listen if you're really a shvi player, I'd like to find out more about you. Because I'm a musician and I'd like meeting armenian musicians. Write to me
BEst regards
ZMystique

[nautykuro]

i think an armenian guy is ment to be with an armenian girl i think we should keep our armenian tradition and it is different to date an armenian guy than a guy from a different race and armenian guys treat their girls more in a different way they always stand up for their girls

[Arshak]

All people must have pride in themselves.

 

[ June 13, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Arshak ]

[Arshak]

|-)

 

[ June 18, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Arshak ]

[Lucid_dream]

Here's what I have to say

 

IF YOU ARE TRUELY ARMENIAN, THEN YOU WON'T COMPROMISE THE THOUGHT OF LIVING WITH ANOTHER RACE.

 

why do I say this? because if you really look down into things, no other race has the customs, traditions, nor the heritage we share and if you want to PRESERVE these things for the upcoming generations, then you should marry an Armenian.

 

Look at it this way. Lets say your spouse is Chinese....your children will be half chinese/half armenian....now there's a 50% chance that that child will want to keep his armenian nationality...lets say he does but marries an african american, their kids will be a mix of a chinese/armenian and an african american..and so on.......what it all comes down to is this.....sooner or later MOST will forget they're Armenian traditions/customs/heritage... only a rare rare few will consider themselves Armenian, probably without even knowing their own language.

 

ok shat xoratsa, I could talk about this subject for hours, but my whole point is that Armenians should stick together!!

 

IF Armenians keep on marrying other races and thinking that what they're doing is OK and to add to that, thinking that they're preserving their Armenian heritage, let them think again.

[hasmiek]

i was born in amsterdam, my parents are both armenians. I was brought up with the armenian culture at home, and with the dutch culture in school, on sundays i would go to the armenian school.

 

When i was a child hated this; I was brought up much more strict then my dutch friends, I never was free to do the things I wanted, like going out, travel, have boyfriends, etc. I felt constrained by being Armenian, and i wanted to be Dutch.

When I was 18 I graduated from school, and I went to an university in another city to escape from my parents. This is still one of the best decisions I ever made; I started to do everything I always wanted, and no one could stop me, even not my family. And guess what, I didn't end up pregnant, on drugs, as a prostitute, dead or anything else that horrifies parents

 

When I was 21 I met this dutch guy in university; we fell in love and I introduced him to my parents. At first they didn't take our relationship very seriously, I guess they were still with the hope that one day I would fall for an armenian guy. Now, four years later, I'm still with him, and we probably always wil stay together.

 

In the last year i've been catching up with my armenian language again; i'm teaching my boyfriend the alphabet, my culture and the language. Why? Because it's my time now to do this, and because I want to and no one else, not even my family. The funny thing is that being with my dutch boyfriend made me realise where my roots are and what my culture is.

 

Someday I hope to have children with him, and I am sure that the language will not end with me and neither will the stories of my family. I will try to give my children the freedom to decide for themselves who they want to be and who they want to be with. I will trust them as my parents decided to trust me.