Muslim Armenian?

[Arpa]

Well, Sassun, you keep talking about how Islam was hated in your schools in Lebanon (which doesn't even make sense already, since Islam is Lebanon's state religion, and would probably not let that happen),

====

Elia, please be careful. Don’t shoot from the hip lest you be shot down.

I’m not sure if Lebanon has “state religion” by constitution. If there were one it would probably be Christian Maronite Catholic, since by constitution the president must be a Maronite, the PM a Sunni (Moslem) and the speaker of the House a Shii (Moslem). I don’t know if the Druze, and other denominations have ministerial assignments.

For the longest time the Lebanese maintained that Christians were in the majority. According to the World Almanac, 1993 the distribution is 75% Muslim and 25% Christian,

On a side note, at on time the Armenians of Beirut used “turk” when referring to Moslems, and used “mtfeli(mutually?) when referring to Shiites, while in Syria Moslems were called Moslem, or maybe just plain Arabs, while Turks were referred to as Turk or Tajik. Of course the Arabic speaking Christians were called just plain “Haleptsi”.

I don’t know if those terms are still in use at the present.

 

 

[Arpa]

Well, the builders/users of this mosque don't necessarily have to be Armenian, you know. There aren't only Armenians in Yerevan. And even if it was built by Armenians (which it probably was), it's because Armenians aren't racist against other religions, unlike the extremist Turks.

I have been there, even if I did not enter the actual building. It is metuculously kept with great repect. Evidently it is mainly used by Persians.

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?titl...sque_of_Yerevan

Located across the street from the covered market (pag shuka) on Mashtots.

The largest mosque of Yerevan and only one still preserved, the Gyoy or Gök-Jami, (gök means "sky-blue" in Turkish - more commonly known as the Blue Mosque) was built in AH 1179 or AD 1765/6 by the command of local ruler Hussein Ali-Khan to be the main Friday mosque. The mosque portal and minaret were decorated …

 

 

[Sassun]

ِArpa

The last census was done in 1932.

The Muslims in Lebanon are an overwhelming majority, and the Christians refuse to have a census. Some knowledgeable people in ministries say that they are not more than 15-20% ... The Shi'ites are the majority (around 45-50%), the Druze are some 5%, and the Sunnis (around 20-25%), and also some minorities (Kurds, Armenians, Alawis).

Actually , although the Pres is supposed to be Maronite, his powers have been significantly reduced in favor of those of the Sunni PM and Shi'i Speaker of Parliament, and contrary to what many think, the Shi'i speaker of parliament is relatively the most powerful of the three positions. The only position of significance that the Maronites have is the Army Commander.. The army is also overwhelmingly Shi'i...

 

The term you referred to is, yes, Mtfeli , and in Arabic, Mutwali... it is kind of a derogatory term and many Armenians still use it.......

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

I have been there, even if I did not enter the actual building. It is metuculously kept with great repect. Evidently it is mainly used by Persians.

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?titl...sque_of_Yerevan

Located across the street from the covered market (pag shuka) on Mashtots.

The largest mosque of Yerevan and only one still preserved, the Gyoy or Gök-Jami, (gök means "sky-blue" in Turkish - more commonly known as the Blue Mosque) was built in AH 1179 or AD 1765/6 by the command of local ruler Hussein Ali-Khan to be the main Friday mosque. The mosque portal and minaret were decorated …

Do you know if they are allowed to do the adhan/athan (the call to prayer) ?

[Էլիա]

Elia, please be careful. Don’t shoot from the hip lest you be shot down.

I’m not sure if Lebanon has “state religion” by constitution. If there were one it would probably be Christian Maronite Catholic, since by constitution the president must be a Maronite, the PM a Sunni (Moslem) and the speaker of the House a Shii (Moslem). I don’t know if the Druze, and other denominations have ministerial assignments.

For the longest time the Lebanese maintained that Christians were in the majority. According to the World Almanac, 1993 the distribution is 75% Muslim and 25% Christian,

On a side note, at on time the Armenians of Beirut used “turk” when referring to Moslems, and used “mtfeli(mutually?) when referring to Shiites, while in Syria Moslems were called Moslem, or maybe just plain Arabs, while Turks were referred to as Turk or Tajik. Of course the Arabic speaking Christians were called just plain “Haleptsi”.

I don’t know if those terms are still in use at the present.

Ya, sorry about that. I need to stop making assumptions...

[phantom22]

When are the ROA authorties going to give the Hryas back their synagogues and their cemetary? No, I am not a Hrya but a nominal Protestant studying Zen Buddhism.

 

Well, the builders/users of this mosque don't necessarily have to be Armenian, you know. There aren't only Armenians in Yerevan. And even if it was built by Armenians (which it probably was), it's because Armenians aren't racist against other religions, unlike the extremist Turks.

Edited May 27, 2007 by phantom22

[Էլիա]

When are the ROA authorties going to give the Hryas back their synagogues and their cemetary? No, I am not a Hrya but a nominal Protestant studying Zen Buddhism.

I don't know... I guess it's because there aren't many Jews in Armenia (are there?). You're a Buddhist Armenian? lol

 

[phantom22]

750 Jews remain in Armenia. There are also European Jews doing business in Yerevan. The ROA mayor just comandeered the Jewish meeting hall. The synagogue and cemetary were confiscated by the Soviets and have not been returned.

 

You can count the number of Armenians remaining in Singapore on one hand yet the Singaporean government has restored the 1835 Armenian Church there. It and its gardens are so beautiful that it is like a paradise oasis in the middle of the city.

 

 

I don't know... I guess it's because there aren't many Jews in Armenia (are there?). You're a Buddhist Armenian? lol

Edited May 27, 2007 by phantom22

[Էլիա]

750 Jews remain in Armenia. There are also European Jews doing business in Yerevan. The ROA mayor just comandeered the Jewish meeting hall. The synagogue and cemetary were confiscated by the Soviets and have not been returned.

 

You can count the number of Armenians remaining in Singapore on one hand yet the Singaporean government has restored the 1835 Armenian Church there. It and its gardens are so beautiful that it is like a paradise oasis in the middle of the city.

OK, maybe that's why Jews are supporting Turks in the Armenian Genocide issue...

 

[phantom22]

Now you got it! There are eshegs running things in Yerevan.

 

 

OK, maybe that's why Jews are supporting Turks in the Armenian Genocide issue...

 

[Էլիա]

Now you got it! There are eshegs running things in Yerevan.

Well, what can we do about it?

[AK-47]

OK, maybe that's why Jews are supporting Turks in the Armenian Genocide issue...

Not at all actually. It is all a matter of realpolitik between Israel and Turkey. One needs the other according to them (as Israel "supposedly" does not have Muslim allies). The Rabbi union in Israel has actually recognized the genocide and campaigns side-by-side w/ Armenians in Israel to get the state to recognize it. How do you expect Armenians to have some sort of respect to Judaism when Israel (the holy land of Judaism) should have been the first nation in the world to recognize the Armenian genocide because they have experienced everything that we have experienced, be it exile, genocide, large diaspora etc. Israel forces its monstrously powerful Jewish lobby to stop American resolutions on the Armenian Genocide. And not only is Israel buddies with Turkey, but they are close to our mortal enemies, AZERBAIJAN. They helped Azerbaijan in its war against Artsakh man. How can you not expect some kind of counter to all this. We cannot just sit back and take blows anymore, we need to go on the offensive and make people learn that we will not sit down and take crap from anyone. We took one in 1915 and 92 years later, we are still in pain from this blow. Artsakh represents this notion of "enough is enough".

 

 

[Էլիա]

Not at all actually. It is all a matter of realpolitik between Israel and Turkey. One needs the other according to them (as Israel "supposedly" does not have Muslim allies). The Rabbi union in Israel has actually recognized the genocide and campaigns side-by-side w/ Armenians in Israel to get the state to recognize it. How do you expect Armenians to have some sort of respect to Judaism when Israel (the holy land of Judaism) should have been the first nation in the world to recognize the Armenian genocide because they have experienced everything that we have experienced, be it exile, genocide, large diaspora etc. Israel forces its monstrously powerful Jewish lobby to stop American resolutions on the Armenian Genocide. And not only is Israel buddies with Turkey, but they are close to our mortal enemies, AZERBAIJAN. They helped Azerbaijan in its war against Artsakh man. How can you not expect some kind of counter to all this. We cannot just sit back and take blows anymore, we need to go on the offensive and make people learn that we will not sit down and take crap from anyone. We took one in 1915 and 92 years later, we are still in pain from this blow. Artsakh represents this notion of "enough is enough".

The interference of Turkey's politics with US and Israel in the Armenian Genocide's recognition is really starting to get annoying! It doesn't matter how important Turkey is to them, if it did a crime, does it not deserve a punishment!?

[Sassun]

I missed this...

 

Don't worry ma man, you are still just as Armenian as Sasuntsi Davit.

Yeah, I was a big fan of Sasuntsi Tavit since I was a kid. I especially loved the part with Sanasar and Baghdasar, I even made a painting of it and took it to my hayots badmootyan oryort.

 

Sassun (not me... ) rules.

[Էլիա]

I missed this...

Yeah, I was a big fan of Sasuntsi Tavit since I was a kid. I especially loved the part with Sanasar and Baghdasar, I even made a painting of it and took it to my hayots badmootyan oryort.

 

Sassun (not me... ) rules.

Lol, unfortunately, almost everything I learned in Հայոց Պատմութիւն went in one ear and out the other!

[Zartonk]

Not at all actually. It is all a matter of realpolitik between Israel and Turkey.

 

I have to second that. It isn't a reaction to Armenian Anti-Semetism (Hi Arpa ) at all. Is is just political Turcophilia. Besides, compared to Europe and even Turkey, Jews have always had it better with Armenians.

[AK-47]

About the entire Armenian usage of the word "Dadjik", yes, Dadjik is very commonly used to refer to Turks and not Islam per se. Do not forget that in the Ottoman Empire, we were divided up by the millet system which basically characterised people by their religion and put religious leaders as heads of the communities. So this creation of a division led to our grandparents to commonly use "Dadjik" when referring to Turks and this passed on to their children after they survived the Armenian Genocide (note that most fled to Lebanon/Syria, where they keep using Dadjik/Aylask). But it is not only that.

 

Don't forget that for 1600 years, Armenia has been a Christian island surrounded by other religions and for most of the part, they were surrounded by Muslims who were on a conversion mission. One of the hardest times Armenians endured in their history is during the rise of Islam in modern-day Saudi Arabia and the subsequent Arab Invasions (or should I say Muslim invasion). We suffered heavily during these invasions... After the Arabs came and passed, that entire orgy of Mongol hunter-gatherer barbarians (be it Seljuks, Tartars, Mongols, Ottomans, Turks, Mameluks etc, whatever they wanna be called) arrived. And all these groups converted to Islam so AGAIN the Armenians were tasting the "sword of Allah".

 

And also, even though Turkish nationalism was the main instigator of the Armenian Genocide, fact is fact that it was under Sharia Ottoman law that the entire hatred of Armenians started. We were second class citizens in regard to Muslims, we payed that (stupid) Jizya tax, we could not build Churches near areas with Mosques, we did not have horses, we did not have weapons (legally, that is) and very importantly...the testimony of a Christian was worth half the testimony of a Muslim. This led to us wanting reforms and the subsequent genocidal killings in the name of Allah by Abdul Hamid II. When the Ottomans lost the Balkans, discouraged Ottoman soldiers returned to Anatolia with stories of "barbaric Christians" killing and defeating them. The entire point of this is so you can see that we have always been disconnected from Islam which for 600 years, the Muslim for the Armenian has been the Turk millet.

 

Anyway, this shows why Armenians would generally consider Muslims to be bad people. Our entire strenght in not assimilating into Islam etc and clinging on to Christianity has enabled us to survive. Us being different has enabled us to survive.

 

And lastly, about Lebanon. You can expect hate towards Muslims due to the 25 years civil war (or is it still ongoing...). Although, I must add that the Phalangists were equal enemies. But I do not think that there is much hate lately as the Dashnaks themselves are allied with Michel Aoun/Hizb Allah alliance. And call me crazy, but i've heard around that Nasrallah can speak fluent Armenian (being raised in Bourj Hammoud and all). So I think Dadjik is commonly used to refer to Turks. And I hope you understand Sassun as to why it is very hard to accept a Muslim Armenian that wasn't forcefully converted. Another quick example I experienced not so long ago, I was around this Armenian guy from Lebanon who had left the country for decades now (he's an old friend of my dad's) and he used a few words in Turkish when he was speaking and he told me "geh hassgnass cheh, DADJGEREN" (aysinkn Muslim-eren as opposed to Turkeren). I was kinda confused at first and then it hit me on what he meant.

Edited May 27, 2007 by AK-47

[Sassun]

Lol, unfortunately, almost everything I learned in Հայոց Պատմութիւն went in one ear and out the other!

Oh, I loved those stuff.

I loved Bible / Hayeren / and Hayots Badmootyoon classes.

We used to have an illustrated Bible for kids, in Armenian, for 1st and 2nd grades.. I used to spend the whole time in class going through the pics haha...

and for Armenian we used "Haygaran" (Hamazkayin) , and used to study by heart the poems and also the gensakrootyoon of the author... Ախ ըլլայի, ըլլայի դաշտի ճամբու մը վրան կամ ստորոտը լերան ուղեւորին ժամանման սպասող հիւղն ըլլայի -- Միսաք Մեծարենց

Եւ մէկ հատ ալ ուրիշ բանաստեղծութիւն. կարծեմ Աւետիք Իսահակեանը գրած է չեմ գիտեր ճիշդ ինչ է վերնագիրը, բայց թռչունի բոյնին մասին է:

 

My elementary teacher used to say that one day I would be a "hayaked" (yeah right)

 

I used to actually write շարադրութիւն and my language was of course better than it is now. I haven't written in Armenian for years. I am surprised I have been able to keep so much of it in mind.

 

I miss those days...

[Sassun]

About the entire Armenian usage of the word "Dadjik", yes, Dadjik is very commonly used to refer to Turks and not Islam per se. Do not forget that in the Ottoman Empire, we were divided up by the millet system which basically characterised people by their religion and put religious leaders as heads of the communities. So this creation of a division led to our grandparents to commonly use "Dadjik" when referring to Turks and this passed on to their children after they survived the Armenian Genocide (note that most fled to Lebanon/Syria, where they keep using Dadjik/Aylask). But it is not only that.

 

Don't forget that for 1600 years, Armenia has been a Christian island surrounded by other religions and for most of the part, they were surrounded by Muslims who were on a conversion mission. One of the hardest times Armenians endured in their history is during the rise of Islam in modern-day Saudi Arabia and the subsequent Arab Invasions (or should I say Muslim invasion). We suffered heavily during these invasions... After the Arabs came and passed, that entire orgy of Mongol hunter-gatherer barbarians (be it Seljuks, Tartars, Mongols, Ottomans, Turks, Mameluks etc, whatever they wanna be called) arrived. And all these groups converted to Islam so AGAIN the Armenians were tasting the "sword of Allah".

 

And also, even though Turkish nationalism was the main instigator of the Armenian Genocide, fact is fact that it was under Sharia Ottoman law that the entire hatred of Armenians started. We were second class citizens in regard to Muslims, we payed that (stupid) Jizya tax, we could not build Churches near areas with Mosques, we did not have horses, we did not have weapons (legally, that is) and very importantly...the testimony of a Christian was worth half the testimony of a Muslim. This led to us wanting reforms and the subsequent genocidal killings in the name of Allah by Abdul Hamid II. When the Ottomans lost the Balkans, discouraged Ottoman soldiers returned to Anatolia with stories of "barbaric Christians" killing and defeating them. The entire point of this is so you can see that we have always been disconnected from Islam which for 600 years, the Muslim for the Armenian has been the Turk millet.

 

Anyway, this shows why Armenians would generally consider Muslims to be bad people. Our entire strenght in not assimilating into Islam etc and clinging on to Christianity has enabled us to survive. Us being different has enabled us to survive.

 

And lastly, about Lebanon. You can expect hate towards Muslims due to the 25 years civil war (or is it still ongoing...). Although, I must add that the Phalangists were equal enemies. But I do not think that there is much hate lately as the Dashnaks themselves are allied with Michel Aoun/Hizb Allah alliance. And call me crazy, but i've heard around that Nasrallah can speak fluent Armenian (being raised in Bourj Hammoud and all). So I think Dadjik is commonly used to refer to Turks. And I hope you understand Sassun as to why it is very hard to accept a Muslim Armenian that wasn't forcefully converted. Another quick example I experienced not so long ago, I was around this Armenian guy from Lebanon who had left the country for decades now (he's an old friend of my dad's) and he used a few words in Turkish when he was speaking and he told me "geh hassgnass cheh, DADJGEREN" (aysinkn Muslim-eren as opposed to Turkeren). I was kinda confused at first and then it hit me on what he meant.

Ak-47

First a note about the forced conversion thing. Islam does not condone such an act. There is something that we call "da'awa" دعوة which essentially is a call and an invitation for non-Muslims to embrace Islam. Forced conversion is not in any way part of Islam, and this again proves my point that what the Turks were doing was based on their TUrkism and not based on their being Muslims...

 

As for the Tashnag-Hezb Allah alliance, I can assure you that it is at face value and does not , at all, lessen the general feeling of dislike (if not hatred, which I still maintain, based on personal experience, exists) towards Muslims... You would be surprised to hear Armenians would still use the same derogatory terms to refer to Muslims -- that is, the same Muslims that they are politically allied with /// this is of course behind their backs...

 

Let me ask you something... you said that the above -mentioned reasons are why you would not accept a non-forcefully-converted Muslim Armenian... is it because you are afraid it will encourage more people to convert ? or what? because I hope you would realize that a Muslim ARMENIAN will not take up a sword and kill ARMENIANS. I want to emphasize the first part of the question , the question of whther it will encourage more people to convert.. do you think it will have that result ? I do not know how it will have that result , if people do not find anything inviting in Islam to begin with , then why all this fear ? and also , this unnecessary fear is causing much pain to people like me (i know only a few Muslim Armenians who have converted willingly , by the way , so I do not know if the figures are much more significant, other than the Hamshen, which is a different case...) , do you think my desire to be accepted is misplaced? Do you think I have a right to desire this sort of acceptance ?

These arent rhetorical questions, and I would like ,to hear people's views on it.. if possible.

[Dave]

What is happening in Iraq is not to be taken as a measure by which to assess Islam. The events in Iraq are as far from Islam as anything can be. It has nothing to do with Islam but with the power struggle between Saudi Arabia/USA on the one hand & Iran on the other....

 

The same could be said in regards to Christianity (Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, Echmiadzin, etc)

 

And yes, Christians were considered second-class citizens, and had to pay more taxes. This way, Arab and Turkish leaders made the poorer people convert to Islam. Moreover, Armenians had to pay taxes to the Kurdish tribes so that they'd "protect" them.

 

During the Armenian genocide, Ottoman leaders used Islamic rhetoric in order to incite ordinary Turks, Kurds, and Cherkez against us "kafir"s. A Jihad had been officially declared against us.

So it wasn't only because of our Armenianness...

 

Anything that divides the Armenian mainstream is unacceptable in my opinion.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Dave

[Sassun]

The same could be said in regards to Christianity (Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, Echmiadzin, etc)

I did not get this...

 

And yes, Christians were considered second-class citizens, and had to pay more taxes. This way, Arab and Turkish leaders made the poorer people convert to Islam. Moreover, Armenians had to pay taxes to the Kurdish tribes so that they'd "protect" them.

This also proves my point.

First , in Islam, "ahl al dhimma" do not pay taxes to tribes...

Second, Muslims pay even more taxes in the form Khums and Zakat, which "ahl al dhimma" do not have to pay...

So your argument that it was intended to make poorer people convert is really not valid.

 

During the Armenian genocide, Ottoman leaders used Islamic rhetoric in order to incite ordinary Turks, Kurds, and Cherkez against us "kafir"s. A Jihad had been officially declared against us.

So it wasn't only because of our Armenianness...

I was not arguing that they did it because of our Armenianness....

I was arguing that they did it based on their Turkic identity / nationalism / chauvinism...

Islam was a "rallying call " / "battle cry".

Islam was not the reason they fought us... it was only the means to incite people... this is what some "clerics" do today, too... doesn't mean it has anything to do with Islam ...

What about the Kurds... they are Muslims... The Turks used them then turned against them.

 

Anything that divides the Armenian mainstream is unacceptable in my opinion.

You mean divides the mainstream in terms of splitting opinions on this issue for example ?

But don't you think that this is the opportunity to discuss such matters and arrive to a more solid identity that is not based on fears of "splitting" the mainstream if one discusses thorny issues in our national consciousness ?

 

[Sassun]

Can you please explain Dave how come Sunni Turkey supports Shi'ite Azerbaijan ?

We all know the Sunni- Shi'ite divide, you said it yourself "irar guh pezegden gor".

 

 

[AK-47]

Ak-47

First a note about the forced conversion thing. Islam does not condone such an act. There is something that we call "da'awa" دعوة which essentially is a call and an invitation for non-Muslims to embrace Islam. Forced conversion is not in any way part of Islam, and this again proves my point that what the Turks were doing was based on their TUrkism and not based on their being Muslims...

 

As for the Tashnag-Hezb Allah alliance, I can assure you that it is at face value and does not , at all, lessen the general feeling of dislike (if not hatred, which I still maintain, based on personal experience, exists) towards Muslims... You would be surprised to hear Armenians would still use the same derogatory terms to refer to Muslims -- that is, the same Muslims that they are politically allied with /// this is of course behind their backs...

 

Let me ask you something... you said that the above -mentioned reasons are why you would not accept a non-forcefully-converted Muslim Armenian... is it because you are afraid it will encourage more people to convert ? or what? because I hope you would realize that a Muslim ARMENIAN will not take up a sword and kill ARMENIANS. I want to emphasize the first part of the question , the question of whther it will encourage more people to convert.. do you think it will have that result ? I do not know how it will have that result , if people do not find anything inviting in Islam to begin with , then why all this fear ? and also , this unnecessary fear is causing much pain to people like me (i know only a few Muslim Armenians who have converted willingly , by the way , so I do not know if the figures are much more significant, other than the Hamshen, which is a different case...) , do you think my desire to be accepted is misplaced? Do you think I have a right to desire this sort of acceptance ?

These arent rhetorical questions, and I would like ,to hear people's views on it.. if possible.

The exact same can be seen when approaching the Muslim POV. You canot say that Armenians call them this and that and not consider the fact that Muslims do the same things. I am sure Muslims have derogotary terms for Christians and possibly Armenians alone maybe and they apply these terms. I am sure they were using these terms when they were throwing mortars around Beirut during the civil war. After all, we are dhimmis. So please do not judge your ethnic brethen when your religious brethen are quite possibly doing the same thing.

 

There are plenty of reasons why the Lebanese-Armenian community still feel emnity in regards to (Muslims). The psychological factor of the AG is still in effect in Lebanon as it is arguably the mostly affected by it since most are decendants of survivors. And then, alot of Lebanese (including Armenians) blame the Palestinians (who are Muslim) for all the chaos in Lebanon (I, for one do not agree with this). So it is always this continuous suffering under Islam that Armenians face that hurts us. We have always been excluded from this religion and you must understand that it is not easy to see, let's say "one of our own" (nothing bad intended), jump ship to Islam and Allah under who's name we have constantly been harassed.

 

"I hope you would realize that a Muslim ARMENIAN will not take up a sword and kill ARMENIANS."

 

I am glad you said this because I feel that it is necessary to feel Armenian before feeling anything else. I identify myself as a Christian but I am Armenian before anything else. You should know that when it comes to chosing between Jihad (Allah) and your Armenian brothers, you will have to make the right choice. I think that trying to be accepted is an uphill battle and it will not hold water because of our historic differences with Islam, be it bastardized version or not. I must run off now so I kept this part a little short.

[Sassun]

No, I can assure you Muslims do not have derogatory terms towards Armenians , and as for Christians, we consider Christians to be "Ahl al Kitab" (People of the Book) , and that is by no means a derogatory term... And Islam does not have animosity towards Christians, but the opposite, it actually criticizes those Christians who do not abide by the Book that they were given (i.e. the Bible)... And Dhimmi is not a derogatory term.... do you know what it means ? In U.S people use this term without knowing what it means.... so it has become associated with a negative image... dhimma means protection.... dhimmi is someone who is to be protected based on an agreement with the ruler....

 

Look, I am not judging my ethnic brethren , but you have to understand that my negative views are also a result of my experiences. I did not judge , proof is, I came here and asked this question, if I had judged you , I would not have come here and asked for your views , instead I would have stereotyped you as being all the same thing, and not have bothered with it.

 

I am not defending my religious brethren against my ethnic brethren. I do not wish to be in such a situation of having to choose which side to be on. That is the biggest challenge because while Muslims accept my Armenianness, Armenians do not accept my being a Muslim. Wouldn't you feel alienated in such a situation (ignore for the moment that you might not agree with converting to Islam ) from Armenians ? Wouldn't you feel you are on the defensive and people are attacking your religion ? (and if the other way around was true, I would have felt just the same, because I am just as much Armenian as I am Muslim). Still, as I said, I am on the defensive, and for me it is a defensive battle not an offensive one, at the end of the day I cannot force myself on the majority of Armenians , and if they do not want to accept me that is their final decision and I cannot change it. I want to make people understand where I'm coming from. Not discussing this will not bring about , magically, a change in opinions. Armenians have adapted much faster to ethnically mixed marriage . Why ? because in the environments they live in, it is no longer taboo to speak of these things. I want to break this taboo. I am really sick of people gossiping about "those people, they converted to Islam, shame on them, they are a shame to our nation. What will people say??" . THEY KNOW WE HEAR IT. At least let them have some honor and not talk and gossip like that.

 

But also you must keep in mind that there is a difference between defending Islam (which is what I am doing) and defending Muslims. And not all 'Muslims' can and must be defended just because I am Muslim. Bad acts are bad no matter what , and one must always distance oneself from it.

 

So, let me ask you this: what do you think that a Muslim Armenian should do? If you were me (HYPOTHETICALLY, because I know you do not want to be me ) what would you have done ?

Well, there are a few choices, let me make it easier for you:

1) Convert "back" (apostasy) and (maybe? maybe not?) be accepted once more by Armenians

2) Give up on Armenianness...

3) Fight (with the pen not the sword....) tooth and nail those who do not wish to accept you, and try to convince them to accept you...

4) Wait and see / do nothing...

5) Give up on both Islam and Armenianness....

 

**

 

I'm somewhere between #3 & #4... in 'real life' I am on #4... though #2 has sometimes , admittedly, tempted me... and on this forum , I am at #3. #5 is out of the question.

I'm guessing your reply would be: #1...

But you know what #1 is equal to? It is equal to treating the symptom instead of the disease.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sassun

[phantom22]

We can start by not closing down Synagogues in Armenia. Don't forget that there is an Armenian community in Israel, both within and outside the Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem.

 

We can get Djerdjian to act as a go between Israel and the Arab states. We can act as an agent for peace instead of agitating the Jews in the ROA.

 

What the heck is going on in Yerevan? Parks are sold off to the oligarchs, 200-year old historic buildings are demolished by the government to build an in-town residence for the Catholicos, etc.

 

The ROA should restore the historic synagogues to the Jewish community and assist in their restoration. What is being done only cements the Jews closer to the Azeris. What idiots are running Yerevan?

 

Well, what can we do about it?

Edited May 27, 2007 by phantom22