Buddha

[DominO123]

If the multiverse is one of those things that I just have to believe for it to be true, then I reject it.

 

Basically, I reject anything that is self-defining (i.e. believe in God and it will exist).

 

The multiverse does not necessarly means that believing something will make it true.

 

The multiverse is also bringing an explaination to what we observe in the infinitly small.

 

The MWT(Multiple world theory) or MWI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

 

For me, it is absolutly clear that either the universe must be infinitly big, or there are infinit numbers of universes to explain how come the universe sounds to be fine tuned.

 

If you believe in only one universes which has limits, you would have to accept a creator. If you believe in one universe which is infinitly big, the laws of physic should be different dependent on the location you are, to explain how in one location it seems as fine tuned, which also is not different than believing in a multiverse concept.

 

In short, you can not not believe in a multiverse and being an atheist in the same time.

[DominO123]

BTW, my theory of the multiverse does not assume that if you believe something it will make it true.

 

In my theory, every possibilities exist, but your self-awarness is concentrated in a localised number of universes, which makes you observe what is in those universes and not others. If you could change this location, you will change universes and will observe as if you have modified something.

 

Also, since I am not the only thing living, the localization of my self-awarness depend on other peoples and what I do observe too.

 

It is like the Quantum suicide test

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_i..._of_many_worlds

 

The person that will kill himself will not observe this killing, because he can only be self-aware of the universes that he still is living. The new universes that he'll find himself in will be indistinguishable from the bunch he was already living in. It may very well be as well, that he may find himself in a universe slightly different, he might observe as if he has modified the universe, but he did nothing such, he just is now living in a bunch of universe slightly different than the previous ones.

[Sasun]

The other thing is if you are a very good person than maybe maybe you'll go to pergutory for I don't know how long. But notice I am saying maybe. I don't know the answer. I don't know if Sasun knows the answer to this one either.

I don't know the details about the pergutory as defined in Catholicism (as far as I know only Cahtolics have that concept). I believe more in a different version which I have come to learn:

there are three types of worlds - Physical in which we live, Astral and Causal. Accordingly, we and all living beings have 3 bodies - physical, astral and causal. We all know what the physical world is. The astral world consists of subtle energy-like matter, not physical matter. The astral bodies are more or less like the physical body of each soul, and many souls choose to wear their young bodies. The causal world and causal bodies consist of elements of ideas, thoughs/consciousness. Thus our souls wear three garments - physical, astral and causal.

When we die (or leave the physical world) we are left with two bodies - astral and causal, and we go to the astral world. The astral world is much larger than the physical world. There are many astral planets where living souls go after they leave the earthly bodies. Now, these planets are not all the same, some are heavenly where everyone whishes to go, but some are really bad where there are constantly wars and suffering. There are different gradations of these planets. Some are extremely good, some are just fine but less than the former ones, some are good, average, then some others moderately bad, etc.. Souls normally are placed in planets that correspond to their acts and state of consciousness in their last life on the earth. A kind and virtuos person's soul will be on a good planet (or Heaven) and an aggressive criminal will be placed on a bad planet (or Hell). Spiritually aspiring souls go to the topmost astral planets, and extremely spiritual people go even further to the causal world which is infinitely more joyous, one has a nearly complete freedom. Souls spend different times in the heavens and hells or in the causal world, it all depends on their capacities and previous lives and progress in spirituality (if any). After that they come back to earth with new bodies compelled by their own cherished desires. Advanced souls spend hundreds of years in very good places before coming back, while ordinary souls spend a few years and come back.

The concept of purgatory is that some (or all, not sure) souls after dying have a second chance in the purgatory of correcting themselves. If they succeed then they will go to heaven, if not to hell.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Sasun

[Sasun]

By rejection I mean myself for example: I think Jesus was a great person with great ideas waaaay ahead of his time. However, I completely reject the notion of God and anything supernatural about Jesus. I completely reject the idea of his resurection. I completely reject the idea of things after death (Heaven, Hell, being reborn, etc). As you know, I also completely reject the idea of ghosts and spirits and such I don't think humans are too far ahead of many other mammals on earth. Many spiritualists tend to be very human centric in their views but science has shown us that many things we tend to consider as super-special human abilities are in fact demonstrated in other animals ... so we really aint' that great (definitely NOT on the same level as God or God's image that many would like to believe).

 

But I don't think any of this makes me an evil person.

All those things can be seen and experienced, so they are not really self-defined as it may seem. Some people remember their past lives, as Plato did. Most of us don't remember when we were 10 days old or when we were in our mothers' wombs. But that does not mean we did not have those stages of life.

[Sip]

All those things can be seen and experienced, so they are not really self-defined as it may seem. Some people remember their past lives, as Plato did. Most of us don't remember when we were 10 days old or when we were in our mothers' wombs. But that does not mean we did not have those stages of life.

 

I think that right there is the fundamental flaw in your logic which throws me in a loop. Not remembering the earlier stages of our lives as an illustration of not remembering past lives is a HUGE (and dangerous) leap.

 

For one thing, I can provide you and myself a mountain of evidence that will convince beyond a reasonable doubt that I was in fact a young child before I got to be an older person (child). However, you have continually insisted that there is evidence of the others without providing any. You have even said several times that I don't have the ability to "see" those things because I haven't developed my spiritual vision. But no mater how similarly you would like to paint these pictures, they are very very different.

 

There is VERY strong and tangible evidence that a child grows to be an adult even though that adult doesn't remember the early childhood. Where is the evidence of reincarnation?

 

PS: I already know precisely how you will reply. Basically you'll tell me to go grow up and then discover these evidences on my own.

[DominO123]

According to the Karma crap, those Armenians victim of the genocide were all bunch of criminals in the past life... it might probably explain their destiny and the destiny of Armenia, and the Earthquake etc.

[DominO123]

Besides, what a dumb a god should be to get a Karma to make everyone equal, when using a random system will have a more exact result.

[aSoldier]

For one thing, I can provide you and myself a mountain of evidence that will convince beyond a reasonable doubt that I was in fact a young child before I got to be an older person (child). However, you have continually insisted that there is evidence of the others without providing any. You have even said several times that I don't have the ability to "see" those things because I haven't developed my spiritual vision. But no mater how similarly you would like to paint these pictures, they are very very different.

 

There is VERY strong and tangible evidence that a child grows to be an adult even though that adult doesn't remember the early childhood. Where is the evidence of reincarnation?

 

That mountain of evidence would contain your whole family, pictures and even video. They are all physical.

 

There is no physical evidence of reincarnation, nor is reincarnation itself physical. There is more to this world than the physical.

Edited December 6, 2005 by sSebB

[aSoldier]

I already know that Anahid

 

The thing that bothers me is this separation thing.. Those who are religious will have eternal life, those who are not, but are good, never do evil, have a healthy and correct life.. well.. they shall know eternal suffer in the flames of hell

Bow before God or face endless pain.. What?

We should all be equal in front of our God, shouldn't we?

The poor guy that has done only good in his life, that has the purest karma but denies the existence of God.. well, poor guy...

 

This is not the image I have of a God. I again come to my theory of a cup being filled each time you live a new life.. And strangely, Sasun says the same thing Except that God doesn't count in the equation. Denying or praising him doesnt make us bad or good.

 

On the day of judgement, you will be judged based on your knowledge of God.

[Sip]

There is more to this world than the physical.

 

Like what?

[DominO123]

Like what?

 

Like other physical universes.

[Sasun]

I think that right there is the fundamental flaw in your logic which throws me in a loop. Not remembering the earlier stages of our lives as an illustration of not remembering past lives is a HUGE (and dangerous) leap.

 

For one thing, I can provide you and myself a mountain of evidence that will convince beyond a reasonable doubt that I was in fact a young child before I got to be an older person (child). However, you have continually insisted that there is evidence of the others without providing any. You have even said several times that I don't have the ability to "see" those things because I haven't developed my spiritual vision. But no mater how similarly you would like to paint these pictures, they are very very different.

 

There is VERY strong and tangible evidence that a child grows to be an adult even though that adult doesn't remember the early childhood. Where is the evidence of reincarnation?

 

PS: I already know precisely how you will reply. Basically you'll tell me to go grow up and then discover these evidences on my own.

Sip, just think about your evidences. You are using 5 senses to observe everything right? If you did not have 5 senses what would you know?

Now think about your senses, how the information is passed from evidences to you. In a nutshell, your senses send signals to your brain, not directly but through nerves. Then your brain processes the information and you make sense of things. Now, suppose you had that information directly in your brain instead of using the senses, then nerves. What would you think of that information - is it true or false? If you asked me I would say direct information is more true than information that has reached me through the intermediaries of senses and nerves and other organs.

 

As to the flaw in logic, no Sip, there is no flaw. I am not saying that not remembering is a proof of reincarnation. All I am saying is not remembering does not mean it did not happen, and not knowing does not mean it does not exist. It seems to me not knowing and not experiencing is the main reason why you don't believe any of the things that you mentioned. That is a very subjective point of view, you can't claim that to be objectively true.

 

As to the spiritual eye, it is true because it is tested and everyone can test if there is a will. No blind faith is necessary. You never tried yet you are so convinced that it is not true. How many years of training is necessary to be an expert in a field of science? It takes many years, hard work and perseverance. After you spend due time and effort some scientific truths become clear to you, and you are on the path to potentially make your own discoveries, not that it is granted. Spiritual practices are just as the same, they take huge amounts of effort and time invested before one can go beyond the limits of 5 senses. To claim that it is not true while there is evidence that it is true from individuals who are experts in that field is not serious. Likewise, you can't deny a scientist's claim without experimenting or basing your opinion on others' experiments. Basically, direct observance of the truth is on the basis of science.

 

Try to think outside of the box. You are saying you can bring tons of evidence that you indeed where a child? Fine, but if I was blind and deaf what use would that be to me? I do need senses for your evidence to mean anything to me. Without sense I would have to either take it by faith, or reject it. (Actually, I would not even know that you exist since I was lacking certain senses). This is precisely the case with your disbelief in the spiritual eye. Instead of five senses you need to develop your spiritual eye and dormant intuitive powers to grasp the truths which can only be observed by intuition and seen by your spiritual eye. I too need to do the same, everyone needs that. There is no blind faith necessary but without trying you will never know. You, I and every human being has a spiritual eye, it is a faculty that must be developed by practice. Like one's brain without schooling and practice in thinking is nearly useless, so the spiritual eye is blind without training.

 

Does any of this make sense?

[Eloren]

On the day of judgement, you will be judged based on your knowledge of God.

 

Oh really Where is that written?

Instead of quting the Bible, sit down, clear your mind and answer logically.. Someone who has done good his whooole life, who has been the purest kind but does not believe in God.. He is doomed right?

 

How fair!

[Anoushik]

According to the Karma crap, those Armenians victim of the genocide were all bunch of criminals in the past life... it might probably explain their destiny and the destiny of Armenia, and the Earthquake etc.

Hence why I'm an atheist.

[Anoushik]

Oh really Where is that written?

Instead of quting the Bible, sit down, clear your mind and answer logically.. Someone who has done good his whooole life, who has been the purest kind but does not believe in God.. He is doomed right?

 

How fair!

If there is a God - and he gave us brains and wanted us to advance in our thought and realized that some humans would be so critical of this world that they would understand that He is incompetent - would certainly be understanding and compassionate to understand why we reject His existence. Certainly, He has to be at least as tolerant as His subjects, for humans have progressed in thought (just some, of course) throughout our history, and we have become more open-minded, accepting, and compassionate towards others' beliefs and experiences.

 

But of course sSebB and other so-called religious, loving, forgiving people will disagree.

[Takoush]

Oh really Where is that written?

Instead of quting the Bible, sit down, clear your mind and answer logically.. Someone who has done good his whooole life, who has been the purest kind but does not believe in God.. He is doomed right?

 

How fair!

Eloren:

 

I do not believe that. I don't think you will be judged based on your knowledge of God. Rather, I think dedicating yourself to the Lord Jesus will open up the door to eternal paradise. But I really don't know that if you are a very good human being and you have lived a clean life and was good to your neighbors, parents, friends, etc. and you didn't do any bad deeds in your life but you didn't praise God that you will go to hell. I am not really an expert on this; but I would think that you could go to heavan but that all depends on God's judgment day. He may put us all in pergutory even if we praised God and dedicated ourselves to the Lord Jesus. It all depends on God. I don't think any humans can answer you what God has it in for you.

 

I would think that if you didn't believe in God but lived a very descent life you may go to purgatory but for a while. Then hopefuly the heavan's door will open up for you.

 

P.S. I want to add and make a correction to my words here that; it is in the scriptures that yes you have to dedicate yourself to Jesus and believe in God otherwise you will not go to heavan.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Sip]

Try to think outside of the box. ...

 

Oh I am! According to sSebB, 83% of the people are still stuck in that box.

 

Basically I think the discussion between you and I boils down to the fact that you claim your beliefs are aquired through information that somehow get to your brain through means not connected to your physical senses ... well, dear friend, to me, that is immagination. A lot of great ideas have originated by sheer immagination so I do not take the power of the mind to come up with great ideas lightly. But at the same time, I do not think basing our phillosophies on immagination and things not tied to our physical reality is a good idea.

 

In other words, I also disagree with sSebB that there are other things in our universe that are not physical. Those things are NOT real. They are figments of our immagination.

 

I guess the differece is, I am much more practical in what I consider real.

[Anoushik]

I don't think you will be judged based on your knowledge of God. Rather, I think dedicating yourself to the Lord Jesus will open up the door to eternal paradise.

I hope you realize that:

 

The first sentence says you won't be judged.

 

The second sentence says you will be judged.

 

... must be very confusing for you as a religious person.

[Takoush]

Oh I am! According to sSebB, 83% of the people are still stuck in that box.

 

Basically I think the discussion between you and I boils down to the fact that you claim your beliefs are aquired through information that somehow get to your brain through means not connected to your physical senses ... well, dear friend, to me, that is immagination. A lot of great ideas have originated by sheer immagination so I do not take the power of the mind to come up with great ideas lightly. But at the same time, I do not think basing our phillosophies on immagination and things not tied to our physical reality is a good idea.

 

In other words, I also disagree with sSebB that there are other things in our universe that are not physical. Those things are NOT real. They are figments of our immagination.

 

I guess the differece is, I am much more practical in what I consider real.

Sipan:

 

Des, what Sasun was telling you is that until you give it a chance to experience it and hence develop it you will not become the master of it. Same as your knowledge and love for science. He was trying to get to you through something like an analogy by comparing your knowledge of science with this phenomena if you want to call it that, or your spritual eye, and of your potential belief in Him. Basically, if you don't practice and open up your heart, your brain and soul to spirituality you cannot knock it down until you experience it. And even that will take time, effort and learning in the subject matter until you become the master of it. Maybe one day.

 

Sassun did I put it right?

[Eloren]

Eloren:

 

I do not believe that. I don't think you will be judged based on your knowledge of God. Rather, I think dedicating yourself to the Lord Jesus will open up the door to eternal paradise. But I really don't know that if you are a very good human being and you have lived a clean life and was good to your neighbors, parents, friends, etc. and you didn't do any bad deeds in your life but you didn't praise God that you will go to hell. I am not really an expert on this; but I would think that you could go to heavan but that all depends on God's judgment day. He may put us all in pergutory even if we praised God and dedicated ourselves to the Lord Jesus. It all depends on God. I don't think any humans can answer you what God has it in for you.

 

I would think that if you didn't believe in God but lived a very descent life you may go to purgatory but for a while. Then hopefuly the heavan's door will open up for you.

 

I thought we punish ourselves with our own karma... But then again God judges us and decides to punish us.. (by the way, you seem to treat God like a "person".. the wise old man with the white beard that looks and judges us..).

 

I still maintain that it is not the image of a benevolent, kind and forgiving God.. We would call this a dictator...

You were very good during your whole life, no mistakes.. But you didn't believe in me.. die!

[Takoush]

I thought we punish ourselves with our own karma... But then again God judges us and decides to punish us.. (by the way, you seem to treat God like a "person".. the wise old man with the white beard that looks and judges us..).

 

I still maintain that it is not the image of a benevolent, kind and forgiving God.. We would call this a dictator...

You were very good during your whole life, no mistakes.. But you didn't believe in me.. die!

Eloren:

 

Such as Sasun said previously on this thread. Unless you give it a chance to experience Him and also your spirituality; why knock it? Perhaps you could give it a chance and will find out great wonders in it.

 

For the way you put it that I treat God such as a wise old man. I don't know, I never thought of it that way. But I do believe in Him and of Him being a good God. I believe in the spirituality also. Also, I care about you people that I would want you to reap the benefits of finding peace and eternal happiness same as I would want it for myself. Did you ever think about that? The same considerateness of course comes also from Sasun and Seb.

[Eloren]

Eloren:

 

Such as Sasun said previously on this thread. Unless you give it a chance to experience Him and also your spirituality; why knock it? Perhaps you could give it a chance and will find out great wonders in it.

 

Actually... Until around 19-20.. I did

It is after that I started questioning things.. and seeing religion in a different way.

I am no atheist, but i do not follow blindly what they teach me. If i was given a brain, it is to use it, to question things. Not to be brainwashed and follow blindly anything the clergy tells me.

[Anoushik]

Basically, if you don't practice and open up your heart, your brain and soul to spirituality you cannot knock it down until you experience it. And even that will take time, effort and learning in the subject matter until you become the master of it.

Tell me Anahid, what have you done to prepare for spiritually to experience God's love? Where have you searched for the Truth, and how have you struggled to understand our world and the meaning of life? How have you coped with the knowledge that there are billions of innocent people suffering in the very world that you breathe? I'm guessing if you claim to experience God and understand him, you must have done some of the above. Otherwise, it seems that you must have taken what the majority of people believe about religion and accepted it without first analyzing it.

[Takoush]

I could suggest to you is perhaps start reading the Bible and the scriptures out of searching for the truth, any truth and see if the Bible speaks to your heart. It may you know, give it a chance. What do you have to lose? Unless you have read it already. I don't know. But if you didn't, then read it for knowlege or as a phylosophical book for starters, and see what happends.

 

 

 

About all the sufferings that is going on in this world, I believe it's in the scriptures that such things will happen; but in the end the persons that will live are the ones that are saved. Yes it's very unfortunate and devastating to the sufferers and to the people that have gone through such horrible miseries. I cannot answer you that Anoushik; no one can. You have to search for God yourself and ask Him. Others such as Djrak have, you know. He said that God spoke to him.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Eloren]

Yes it's very unfortunate and devastating to the sufferers and to the people that have gone through such horrible miseries. I cannot answer you that Anoushik; no one can. You have to search for God yourself and ask Him.

I find it... disturbing.. to say: "So unfortunate for these people to suffer" while maybe most of them are good christians and are asking help from god every single day...

 

Others such as Djrak have, you know. He said that God spoke to him.

 

I have seen little fairies once when i was younger, they spoke to me also and showd me a little secret.. No jokes..

Now do you really believe me? If not, explain why.