THOTH

Very good points and questions....of course there is no way I can answer for other Armenians. For me - I want recognition from Turkey and the world. I want the "history" to me made right - pretty much uncontested - that our people and nation suffered a great wrong - in all respects equivalant in horror and barbarity to that of the Holocaust (for example...I don't mean to be making a comparision here per se...). I want recognition - again from Turkey and the world - that Armenians were driven from their historic homelands...but I do not see any relevance or reality to any kind of mass land claims with any changing of national soveriegnty - though Ani should be made fully accesable to Armenia - and perhaps could be at least a symbolic gesture from the Turks to cede it to Armenian - such a small piece of property with no relevance/value to the Turks...). Certainly I think that Turkey (and the Turks) must humble itself/themselves before all Armenians and ask for forgiveness (and certainly stop these outrageous counter claims). I think that Turkey should offer some compensation (at some point - and considering how it is able) - though this is not as imporatnt to me as proper recognition. Turkey should provide Armenians with speical status to purchase property and live in Turkey if they wish. Turkey should be required to recognize and protect Armenian monuments, any remaining structures of signifigance and sacred sites and the like. And the Turks must teach the truth to their people and not attempt to bury the history/presence of Armenians in Anatolia and in the history of that land - prior to and after the arrival of the Turks and establishment of their Empire. And I hope to see a reconcilliation between our peoples - and this requires some degree of reasonableness and understanding and forgiveness from the Armenian side... Obviously we have a very long way to go before any of these things is close to reality... Hows that?

well, well... Thanks for the post Sasun...

Dan - don't suppose that you know (at all) what I believe and why. And MJ - you mention your attitude....well yes I see, and I'll just leave it at that...

MJ - don't believe everything that you read...

Arpa - very nice review of commentary on the movie - I think you hit on some very valid observations. I know when th DVD comes out i will watch it over and over and over. As it was I saw it in the theater twice - the second time I went immediatly from my hopital bed to the theater (no stop home) - not 24 hours after a pretty invasive surgery - I just had to watch it again. I think I was crying from the moment the opening credits started to roll and though a good deal of the movie. Sure - it has its flaws - mostly with pace of delivery and a certain repitition/preachyness - but I agree with you (and Domino) it is a masterpiece and a movie that succeeds on a great many levels - and it tells the "story" of the Genocide as well as can be hoped from a movie (and better then one could ever expect in many aspects). Funny - normally I can get DVDs of movies that are "special" to me well in advance of their release (I've had "the Two Towers" for 2 months already)...but my "connection" actually gets the movies from/through Turkey...LOL...(so I haven't bothered to try...then again you just never know these days...)

Domino - to me this issue goes beyond just sponsoring academic postions - it ios the strings attacjhed - the very visible, strict limits placed on academic freedom and intellectual honesty...

MJ - You may wish to call the way I express my views "talking from both sides of my mouth" - I feel that it is an indication that I can see the truth of or at least merit to more then one side to an argument - in many cases - and I consider this an attribute and not a liability. And so it is with this. I am all in favor of the concept of such a movement/organization as TARC - but I still believe that - considering the makeup and motivations of the Turkish side and considering the timing of the formation of this group (which directly caused Genocide recognition related effforts to be halted because of its exisistence - and this is fact - regardless of you calling me stupid to believe/assert this) - it was, as enacted more negative then positive - clearly so in my mind (and obviously in the minds of most all Armenians as well - many of whom believed it to be a "sell out" group - though not sure it quite merited this...). As for its sucess and/or progress - I still see nothing at all concrete or of sufficient merit to deem it a sucess. We obviously disagree on the merit of these ICTJ quasi legal (at best) fine points and semantics - perhasp they will lead to something beneficial and perhaps not - most likely this effort will just get buried. There are all sorts of forums that Armenians can point to where the Genocide has supposedly been legitimized and each of these seems just as easily ignored. I will credit this one with sucess when/if it actually amounts to something concrete - and at this point I can't at all see that it has. Thank you for your further explanation of your perspective however - I can at least see where you have the basis for your beliefs - lets just say we disagree - just as I normally don't agree that the Republicans are the lesser of two evils (in most/all cases certainly...though you might be surprised that I line up with them on certain things as well - I have my own mind and I am not at all ashamed of this....)...and again I say its more a reflection on the limitations of vision (and/or emotional balance/confidence/whatever etc) to just call another's ideas stupid then to understand that it is possible to have differences of opinion on an issue.

So you are telling us that TARC succeded in its mission of "shaping a framework for the negotiations of the two governments"? Please illiterate its success in doing such. And short of it doing this (or resulting in ...well...anything...) how can you claim that it was such a great success for the Armenian side - just because the Turks didn't ultimatly get their way in getting the Genocide issue completely squashed...seems to me they essentially have in many respects - at the very least the very formation of this group caused other things not to happen - such as this diplomatic training you refer to. And I know many of these diplomats - and they require this awarness - by and large they don't have it. And at the very least this would have been a victory for Armenian effots to educate and officially legitimize our Genocide within the US government (sure a small step - but cetainly of more value then anything produced by TARC - IMO). So again what is this great sucess of TARC? That it is essentialy no more? This is a sucess for Armenians? (perhaps eh...certainly many think so...)...and if you really think that TARC has been successful (through deadlock) then I wonder who should be calling who stupid...seems we could have just done without... And if your prior comment - that directly followed my post - was not directed towards me - yet I percieved that it was - as I'm sure any who read it did considering its placement (and lack of any real reference to know otherwise) - then I would expect you to be more apoligetic concerning your lack of clarity in directing your comments...particualrly considering the uncalled for nasty tone in the first place...but no - not from you...and you contend I have issues...(I assume that your latest post is indeed refering to me and my comments as you have quoted me - but if not, I would just ask that you attempt to be more clear in the future). Likewise your stating that my views/etc are "incredibly stupid" and that I "talk from both sides of [my] mouth" I think are more of a reflection of your own problems then any serious commentary concerning my views. Perhaps it is you who need to pay more attention to what others write....

Some answer...mr (supposed) know it all...

MJ - I find it very difficult to see any sucess on the Armenian side of TARC. It has obviously been a failure since before it started (well intentioned as it was). I mean - did it cause Turkey to end its blockade of Armenia? Did it cause Turkey to recognize the legitimacy of Armenian Genocide recognition efforts - not to mention did it cause Turkey to recognize the Genocide? Did it cause any economic or cultural exchange agreements to be enacted...etc etc - as far as I know the answer is no to all of these things/ How thatn can you in any way call TARC a sucess or a victory for Armenians? In fact it was clearly the opposite. The existance of TARC was used as an excuse by the US and other Governments to dealy any movement towars Genocide recognition - it was seen as some kind of proof of progress where there was none and where there was no hope for any. Please do enlighten us where this great Armenian victory from TARC occured... And yes - I see Genocide recognition (in its overall sense) as primarily a moral issue and not a political one. Certainly there are related political and perhaps economic isues - and I would agreee the politcal is primarily a state to state function - but the economic - in terms of post Genocide recognition - is - in my mind - more of an individual or group issue outside of state...and I do not see Armenia taking the lead for this. (Its just too bad that we don't have any really worthwhile leaders or organizations with savy and understanding. And Dan - you are correct - I am an American first and foremost (I have no shame in this - quite the contrary) - this is where I live this is where my family resides, where we prosper, where our liberties are protected and where we live in (relative) safety - it is the nation of my first loyalty - without question. At the same time I can be concerned/interested/active in isues concerning my ancestry as well - can I not? I have a strong Armenian identity and interest in (most all) Armenian isses (to varrying degrees) - but an American I am and an American I shall be....BTW - you are an American too (A Canadian American...LOL)

Wow MJ - impressive. i actually agree with most of what you say (for all that it matters). However, as usual, i think you are being to harsh on Sasun. Let me also say that it is my belief that it was the composition of the Turkish side that doomed TARC to failure apriori. Thier representatives were admitedly hard lined and were clear that there intention was primarily to mute the Genocide claims (pushing for nations to do so etc) simply by the existance of the commitee - and that they had no intention of giving ground on any issue. I have no objection to (the concept of ) a TARC - not at all - I fully support such an effort - it is absolutly necessary IMO. But to move foreword and participate in such a sham when there was clearly no hope of anything positive - that is the issue in my mind - and why I opposed the effort as it was composed. I also do not believe (or I am not aware) of any real agenda on the part of the Armenian side - and i think we need to articualte our political goals better - both concerning the Geniocide and concerning Armenias international relations (2 seperate things) I see a clear distinction between (economic and diplomatic) issues that the Armenian governemtn/nation has with Turkey and its neighbors etc - and the Geniocide issue - which is one where the Diasporan Armenians must have their own voice (until/unless something is clearly worked out between the two - though I believe there is reason and benefit to seperating these lines...) Anyway - I don't have time for more right now. Though I urge all on this forum to seriosly heed MJ words and thoughts. Armenians need to think critically concernign their constructs that have built up over the years and MJ is demonstrating this kind of innovative far-thinking. I know his delivery is harsh - try to look past it. I know he will (correctly) claim that he has been demonstrating great patience with us...LOL

Yeah - very weak. Thanks for the post MJ. I too had never heard these terms. Why is it that one word "Genocide" is such a stumbling block? It is the height of absurdaty IMO.

joeseph P - I don't disagree with you. I will always be wary of the Turks...or more accuratly the turkish governement and elits. And certainly many Turks display - for lack of a better word - displeasing attitudes and mannerisms etc - most tied to an unflaggingly nationalistic and very limited/uneducated perspective. But it is a mistake to brand all or even most Turks this way. Most are much like you ad I - trying to live their lives, enjoy themselves a bit, take care of their families...etc And its a mistake to assume that all Turks are uneducated, unfeeling or unappreciative of Armenian issues etc - many are (all of these things...perhaps in depreciating order...but they exist all the same). So what I am saying is that we need to address the issues, be realisitc, be understanding and not just be blinded by hatred and such.

Great posts - particualrly yours MJ. As for the Azeri view - i must say that the first article is about the most eloquent (and non clearly rhetorical) statement of it that I have ever seen, Still it contains many flaws and ommisions IMO - some of which are clearly pointed out in the article posted by MJ. I noted that the first article skirts the issue of the various massacres of Armenians in Baku and Summigat and the Azeri aggressive military campaign and occupation of NK. It also fails to mention that NK achieved legal independence under the old Soviet Syetem by way of referendum and that the area has never been part of any post Soviet Azerbaijan - thus Azeri actions have clearly been illegal and that of an aggressive war of conquest against a people who have legally expressed and achieved theri own self determination. So there is no question over who is in the right here. Additionally these claims of 20% of Azeri land taken are spurious - first because they include NK and secondly because they are inaccurate and overstated to begin with. And never is it stated that Armenia has offered to give back nearly all captured land with Azeri gaurentee of safety and recognition of NK as independent of Azerbaijan. etc.

Zhanna - please tone it dowm! (the all caps and the silly rehtoric). Look - we all understand what our history and the Turks have dealt us...but I suggest that you study deaper then the headlines to understand what truly happened to us and try to reach into your heart and understand that turks are people too. Sure they have a sordid histoty that they must come to terms with - but one cannot just blame all turks for the sins of some of their ancestors and the misguided actions fo their government and the attitudes of certain less educated and overzealously nationalistic Turks. I fear that the attitudes that you take - kill Turks and such - will only make you 9and us) more like them (as you see them)...and this is not a good thing. To some degree we must accept the fate that has been dealt us. We must forgive (but never forget) and move on. Your idea of retakling Western Armenia is just not feasable - nor likely will it ever be - neither is it moral - because of what we would become, what we would do - to accomplish such. You must try to see all people as human beings first and understand that nationality comes a very distant second - if that. You must try to really learn the lessons of the genocide for our people and becaome a better person because of it - not a characterture of hate...

years?

Azat - of course - A Fish called Wanda is an excellent movie and it includes Micheal Palin and John Cleese from Python...(I was just laughing about this very movie with some friends the other day...the scenes where palin is killing the ladies dogs and he is such an animal lover...and the character (Jamie Curtis's Brother)..forgot his name (great actor)..."I'm not stupid" etc...reading Nietche etc... And I was hooked on the Matrix from second one and think it was a great movie (can't wait for the sequels)...and if one cannot get inot Gattica then one just lacks an appreciation for some of the very real potential dangers of/in our future...though I guess I could understand someone finding the movie a bit slow...but I thought it was well acted and presented and that the subject matter was/is very relevant...

Gamavor - understood...! Vava - yes Gattaca is indeed a good one. The concept of genetic selection (and discrimination etc) is not so far off....in fact...(I have it as well on DVD..no surprise realy - I have nearly ever decent Sci-Fi movie...and many more...but Sc-Fi is just my thing...)

Oh got it...I was thinnking you thought I was mad at someone and couldn't figure how you got that out of my post... Actually i don't think that I was...but its certainly possible...

Yeah Bruin...my heart gets broken all the time (nearly every day in the summer!) LOL - But I'm easy...just hang in there - and you might want to possibly look where you haven't ever thought to before. I'm sure you'll find someone who just WOWs you..who is everything you have imagined and much that you haven't even considered (but that can take you to new heights - thrill your world as it were...in all ways!)...Good luck. Vava - shut up! LOL

Munser - please tell us more! Domino - weren't these "scholars" mostly Turkish bought and paid (basically)...or am I thinking of another pitiful Turkish propaganda effort?

Dan, Gamovour - you should notice that both Blade Runner and Brazil are on my list! I have the full Criterion 4(?) disc set of Brazil that Gilliam released with the three different versions of the film - released (cut) version, the version the studio wanted (with the happy ending...truly surreal) and Gilliams original (long) cut (the one to truly watch)...I also have the book about the controversy with him and the stusio. He is (one of) my heros(s)! And of course Blade Runner is taken from the Phillip K Dick story - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" - Dick being one of my fav authors as well (RIP)

Say what?

What?!?!?!?! Are you joking? The Star Wars movies (particualrly the "prequels" are basically shallow and meaningless spectacle - with horrible diologue. The LOTRs movies are brilliantly done and will comprise a truly great epic. The books are IMO - "the greatest story ever told" ...esssentially. How could you (or anyone really) think that the Star Wars movies - particualrly the new ones - even are in the same league with LOTRs...!!!!!

LOL - pretty much describes me really! - seriously....in a sense and certainly to a degree...but heh - I most certainly ain't perfect (no one really is...and it really makes no sense to expect/wait for such....and if you did find him [or thought you did] he probably would be tough to take - perfection is boring [irrating as well IMO..LOL] - in imperfection there is exitement, adventure and life!)...but none of those "requirements" of yours is all that difficult really (though men idividually and as a group certainly often fall short...I understand...)...of course "good looking" is perhaps subjective! With perhaps again some possible exceptions...(and I certainly don't fit that bill I wouldn't think...LOL). But sorry honey I am already taken and likely much too old for you besides (obviously you likely have an age criteria of some sort in any event...and you should...within reason of course...). One thing as well you forgot to mention (directly) - is that your ideal man be a good lover...but of course many of the qualities you mention are at least necessary building blocks for such...though to some degree it depends on what you may be after/what does it for you...(I'd like to think I fit the bill there too [in general...not specifically in regards to your "requirements"] - LOL...well I have been told such! [and heh - we guys certainly do like to hear the compliments!...don't forget that...or in luie of verbal compliments empirical "results" can be enough!]...and I know...as I am both [very] sensitive , patient, as well as strong/physically fit and an endurance specialist (in all things...)...(so if graying [beard mostly...thus far...] with [perhaps more than] a bit of a beer belly[!] (hey I'm certainly no svelt hagarag pretty boy type - LOL!) fits into your profile...well perhaps one day they can clone me! LOL (please don't take any of this all too seriously!)...and don't wait too awfly long...you are only young once and there is more reward (even if accompanied perhaps by some pain) with discovery (we all learn from our partners and relationships in general)...then waiting for "Mr Right" who may or may not exsist (for you...per se)....(very serious about this last part...)