THOTH

pyrheraklit - agreed and glad to have you aboard. I know that many Armenians (here & in general) consider me to be an apoligist for the Turks - I don't believe this is true. I have fought against Genocide denial (on web forums and in other venues) more then any here save Domino and perhaps Phantom now. At the same time I see Armenians going after (non rabid denialist) Turks who have much more reasoned perspectives as well - often just as zealously - and I think that this is wrong. Obviously very few Turks are going to have opinions about the Genocide that correspond with ours - though in fact I know a few who - for all intensive purposes do - and in some cases they call for greater reperations and such then I even think is reasonable (at this time/if ever...). Yes, even many of these Turks seem to embrace some form of rationalization (of past Turkish behaviors) and attempt to defelct blame and make excuses...and while ultimately I don't believe this is a justifiable position - I think we can at least listen to some of the arguments and counter them with (unbiased) factual information - not just call them dirty dogs or worse etc - that gets us nowhere. If we listen - and they know that we are truly listening - not just countering knee jerk - it may force them to think through these issues a bit themselves - particulalry if we are providing good information. Domino has had great success with this in fact - as have I in the past. And in fact there are more Turks out there who are more ressonable and sophisticated on these issues then the usual parrots we (more) often see...they do exist. And in fact I think many Armenians are as guilty as the average Turk in terms of holding onto a somewhat narrow propagandized version of history - OK - I would agree that we are more "right" then the Turks...however that does not mean we have the monopoly on the facts and that there are not significant valid points/history that certain Turks are aware of that most Armenians are not - and we need to listen - we need to understand - we need to be able to speak in a language that means something to the Turks in order that we can press our message - because ultimatly they need to know and accept the fundemental issue of acceptance...and we also need to accept that Turks are not barbarians (even if certain elements at certain/many time behaved barbarously against us & orthers and even if their society and culture is flawed in certain ways - and we must also realize that this is detrimental to them as well as us). I don't know if any of this makes sense - but my point is that we do have to listen - not to those who parrot the exaggerated unsupported proaganda and hatred - but to those Turks who can understand at least a bit of what happend - but are perhaps reluctant - for a variety of reasons to take it to its logical conclusion (I'm thinking of thoise like Ali Surat and others here...) . At the same time Armenians too need to back off from the rhetoric of no-comprimise confrontation - which only hardens the Turks further (and turns others off as well). I really do think that there is some hope in this approach. At the same time our political groups need to be more innovative and flexible (while not dropping our fundemental claims and beliefs concerning the history etc) and Armenia proper needs to be pragmatic of course as they have been - and focused (along with the diaspora) - much more than they have been - in truely righting the ship of the nation. Unfourtunatly they swim upstream in a very strong and treacherous current...and of course nothing really worthwhle is easy either...

Phantom - Thank you very much & BTW - sorry I missed this - I was away when you posted. I too applaud your perspective. I know it from my occasonal monitoring of another furum - I think you know the one of which I speak. I don't post on that forum because it is a censored and controlled forum - and even though I belive I hold enlightened views that they should have no problem with I can all too well see what the reaction to me would be (as it is to you) and that i would be (for the most part) wasting my time. I applaud your very reasoned and patient attempts to press for some honesty and to educate over there however...and I must say I am often tempted to join in...In the meantime however I encourage your continued involvement in this forum. Please to finally meet you. pyrheraklit - I can agree with many of your poits but I disagree that all Turks are so accepting of Turkiosh Foriegn policy (or whatnot) transgressions. Certainly there is a fierce nationalism that is pounded into Turks - but it is a mistake to think that there are not many educated Turks who indeed rise above this - and I have met several. No question that Greeks and Armenians have more inherent cynicism (if thats the correct word - or perhaps honesty is better...) regarding their governments and aspects of the "official histories" and what not...but don't lump all Turks into the ignorant over-nationalist basket...because there are plenty who are indeed cynical and looking for answers outside of official propagansa. It is these Turks we must reach out to. Additionally we cannot expect Turks just to see things our way - and in fact most of us need to develop a more sophisticated understanding of our history - beyond our own myths - then we currently possess - and this involves listening to elements of the "Turkish position" that we often ignore or brush aside. A dialogue is just that...from both sides - where listening is crucial/necessary - and only through dilogue will our problems/issues get resolved.

It was due out sometime this summer I think...July 29th seems to strike a chord - but i don't know fer sure...

Yeah - (seriously) this is why you should always live with someone first (and for a while - like a year or three...) before getting married... same goes for sex of course...because if you believe in this exclusivity of marraige sort of thing - well - your stuck with what you get...for better or for worse...as they say...

Sip - You've obviously never been in the US military....many of their message standards are CAPs only...truly maddening...

I can understand why some/many Armenians are dispointed at Ararat...but for the most part I think this dispointment is misplaced. It really is a brilliant movie that suceeds on very many levels - but of course it requries a viewer who is able to understand these - and it is very demanding in that regard. yes - much of the situations seem contrived, some aspects of the film within a film and such seem cheap (intentionally), and its focus is not so much on the terrible Turks (though good enough I think..) but over how folks cope with the unthinkable and with that which is repellent to them. This is a major issue for us and this film has been made for us. others can take the film on other levels - and these are worthwhile as well - but I think the film has some very deep important messages for Armenians - and for Turks... Anyone know when the DVD will be available in the States? (and I hope they make it unzoned so that i can distribute a few to some folks outside the US....)

A-H - Well I question just how powerful and friendly are these nations of whom you speak - and regardless of pacts/treaties and such just how far they would go to defend Armenian and under what circumstances. haven't we learned that we cannot count on others? And really - even if so 9that these nations are friendly and capable of protecting Armenia to some extent)...this does not at all obviate the need to lessen tensions and attempt to diminsh very real threats on the borders...

I have had several of these - and I know then when I have them - and they have very much turned out as foretold...many of these hae concerned women BTW - but not the kind of dreams (per se) that one might expect...LOL - and at least one turned out to be a bad thing (she left me/moved away...LOL) ...but at least I wasn't surprised when she sprang iit on me (otherwise unexpectadly...)

LOL Azat - most excellent...never heard that one... Domino - too much math and Genocide denial fighting can make one a very dull boy (IMO) ...you need to get out more my friend...LOL

Understood...I had suspected that he might be a total Turkish fabrication...even Southern racists aren't often as dim witted as he... And of course his "sources" are exactluy as you are claiming...and like the typical Turkish arguments on this issue - scratch only so lightly beneath the surface (if one needs to do even that...) and the fabrications and absudaty peeek through very clearly...

Domino - is that something like the Frank Zappa quote "Jazz is not dead...it just smells funny?"

Well i don't watch hardly any US TV series to notice (but I did see those Armenians on Taxicab confessions a while back and they were a hoot...). On the other side of the coin - and its both perhaps obscure and currently a mystery to me - but one of my favorite authors - Tim Powers - very often seems to interject Armenians in very secondary but interesting roles in a number of his books. In each case the Armenians in questions seem to possess some secret (mystical/supernatural etc) knowledge that none other seem completlly aware of...I rally can't figure the/his connection to Armenians proper...dunnoh. Anyway the books in question include: The Stress of her Regard (may favorite...might be out of print - concerns vampric type creatures who creatively influence poests such as Percy, Shelly and Bryce - who are all majoer characters...etc), Declare (a very interesting supernatural spy thriller based largely around Jinni/powerful spirit forces inhabiting the Arc up on Mount Ararat...and related...) and Expiration Date (the middle book in an amazing modern supernatural trilogy...this one taking place in LA [with all the underbelly revelation of a Bukowski story]...and it concerns ghosts - thomas Edisions in particualr..and many more...and ghost hunters & such....BTW - none of these books are what one might imagine them to be (all are built around some incredible - though often very obscure/trivial(?) historical accuracy)...and i think there are some other Armenian references in some of his other books - but i can't recall exactly now...anyone have any knowledge/insites about this? BTW - if at all interested i highly suggest checking the reviews of his books out on Amazon...

WOW Domino - great stuff....but I thought that Weems was dead or such...what gives? And yeah - you have clearly been copied. Weems and his non-answers...I hope he is still alive to continue the great tradition of Armenian Genocide denial (more absurd then the last...) Oh and - thanks - change the "dot" - got it - i just clicked an ddidn't look closely...though now i reacll an earlier discussion about not posting direct links to such (hate) sites - etc... Oh and American-Hye - well good for you...but unfourtunatly Armenia (and Armenians I think) must see it differently. Obviously Armenian is a tiny and vulnerable, land locked state that borders a regional power (Turkey...in case you haven't as yet figured it out) that is none to keen to be friendly. Well no state in such a situation willl last very long if it doesn't attempt to somehow diffuse the hostility...and also reconcilliation with the Turks will prove a great economic boon to Armenia...Armenains realize this...unlike you it seems. Sure everyone is frustrated by Turkey's continued intragagence...but burying ones head in the sand and denying reality is no way to achieve any progress..in fact it is sure suicide...though you are perhaps making some points to consider regarding a Turkish divide and conquor strategy...unfourtunatly the interests of Armenian and that of the Diaspora do not always coincide...just a fact of life...but we both need to be aware of where we diverge and attampt to do waht we can to not sabotage the other's interests...

Links don't work....

Too bad that neither of these articles get all of their facts right...

Ouch! Azat - how immature of you! (brain wise that is...LOL) No really though - this sucks - what a pain...very sorry for you... And Hyebruin - in many ways you are very right - I certaily felt this way when I was young - that my female contemporaries were not interesting to me because I saw them as mentally/emotionally immature - as well as just boring (intellectually). Thus I tended to date older women - actually almost exclusively for many years...And I'm not - or I used to not be the kind of guy to just go for looks and such - I always wanted a gal with a brain (even though my father has warned me against this! LOL) and I also was interested in women with some drive/spark/interest and something to offer (beyond just a good lay...though there were periods of course when that alone might have been good enough! LOL). (though I've never done a one night stand BTW...shame really in hindsight...LOL) In fact there was one gal who was interested in me but who percieved (perhaps somewhat correctly) that I wasn't necessarily so interested in her because she was no rocket scientist (etc) - (though she actually was at least 15 years my senior...I was about 25 - blond, sexy as all, in great shape...) Anyway she confronted me once (we had gone out as "friends") - tearfully - asking why I was only interested in smart gals (etc) (of course with her there was no maturity factor)...well I was a bit shocked for various reasons...one that she was this interested in me...LOL - though being older now I do understand her perspective better!)...needless to say - this day was the start of our relationship...LOL (side note: she was an ex-cop BTW...always was packing - and probably could have kicked my butt anytime! LOL)...so I always felt pretty safe...except of course from her ex-boyfriends...who were all cops...and all pretty mentally messed up [and violent] it seemed to me...LOL - but ultimatly - mainly due to my driving i think [that really turned her on!] she thought that I was - at least potentially - even crazier then any of them...) Well anyway - now that I'm (lots!) older! - LOL - I find myself less descriminating (not that it matters) in my taste/acceptance of (younger...heck all!) women...but at least I'm not so turned off by the giggly/shallow stuff as I used to be (I'm more interestred in the life/vitality...and of course the curves....and such...!) But bottom line - I still am (by far more) attracted to intelligent gals - very much so. And though intelligence isn't alwasy the same as maturity - not at all - in many cases - particularly with women I think - they go hand in hand... "Intelligence is the sexiest thing on the planet" - Bill Nelson

I'm really surprised that this post has elicited no comment. I think it is a real hoot. Where are these Armenians that this Turks speaks of - outraged out in the streets etc? I haven't ssen or heard any Armenian even so much as mention most of these events and such. And in fact - regarding the world cup and other related Turkish soccer successes - many Armenians (including myself were very public in their congratulations to their Turkish friends and aquantences. As for the rest of it - some fantasy fixation this guy has...and i though it was supposed to be Armenians that had this obsession with Turks/Turkey...get a life dude - what an immmagination...LOL - thanks Stormy - a very enjoyable post. Perhaps they establish a Weems institute/foundation over there and this guy is the first graduate...

Super response TB!

I didn't know the appropriate place for this...but since its car related... Auto racing & design legend Carroll Shelby has a foundation to assist sick children with transplants. He has recently pledged 10,000 to the World Childrens Transplant Fund which has opened a center for children in Armenia. http://www.shelbychildrensfoundation.org/about.html

Don't know (though probably over hyped) - but just did one myself (at least for me...)...shaved my beard (at least in part)...after 20+ years. I even had to think a bit to consider if I was still a virgin the last time I was beardless...but concluded that no - I was not...LOL

Sip - your on to something here...i'e been trying to articualte this concept to folks for years...i think you would make a good lifestype spokesperson for it though...LOL WOW - never heard of this animal style or (wooo) hiden In & oOur menu! (and yes - West coast only...shame...)...i will have to indulge sometime 9bruin - in moderation of course...yeah right - LOL!) When I lived in LA I often got to Tommys - mostly the original....I can remember once being visited by a friend from "back" East where the first place we went after picking him up from LAX was Tommys...and when we saw him off we took Tommy's Burgers with us to the airport...and he even took several with him - all wrapped up - to re-heat later when he got home...(and Bruin - this guy was - and still is- very skinny...and is generally a health food nut...LOL) Of course - on the other side of the coin - I once took a date to Tommy's (it really seemed as though she would appreciate it) - boy was I wrong...she thought the place was a dump - and said (after) that she felt like she was eating in a restroom...LOL!..needless to say - we didn't go out after that (though she may have come & slept over a few times...)...shame (she was very young - but legal/barely) super cute, and a little wild thing....how was I to know?.....

OH MY GOD. Those were the best fries I have ever had. Thanks Sip. Yesterday I went in to In and Out and ordered fries "Animal Style" thinking that they were going to laugh at me and tell me that they only make burgers animal style. but it was true they do have them and it was incredibly tasty. Thanks. you're the bomb. Now can I someday borrw that book that you got as a present? Whats this? In & Out is a great place - great burgers & shakes...not familiar with animal style though. I stilll have some bumper stickers from them (not on any car though...LOL) - one is still cut (with the "b" and the "r" off) to say "In and Out urge" ! LOL

LOL - good one. Yes - I have this a bit. Doctors always worried about my low Iron count...and mosquitos consequently love me...easy drinking blood...

Sasun - I can certainly agreee with your post and position. Sure - our language and culture and perhaps even genetics groups us with Aryans (as are Indians BTW., and Persians, etc)...and our culture has elements of both East and West...etc - but this is a far cry form what our little Armenian Hitler is advocating...look at his words - it is outright as well as containing many tells. I know - its a waste of time reading most of what he posts...but at least read enough to understand - this guy is a freak!

You know very little truly - in general and particularly about me and my family. And of course now you are showing our racist superiority beliefs even further by putting down Armenians who live/have lived in the Middle East. They are not pure enough for you - they are "rats" and "savages" - yes we can all see you. And you canot hold a candle to these Armenians and what they have been through and how they have srtruggled to survive and to provide for their families and maintain their traditions. Compared to them you are a hollow nothing a wind bag in the true sense of the word FYI my family came from Istanbul and in the Sivas district. While my Grandfather - a Dashnak fighter at the age of 12 (after his entire family was slaughtered) and after a great many missions in defense of his people he was forced to flee briefly to Egypt - as the price upon his head grew to great to risk staying in Turkey - he quickly immigrated to the USA where he worked laying railroad track and in the Steel mills - never missing a single day of work his entire life. He continued to actively support the Dashnaks and their efforts (you may know of what I speak) after comming to this country - he was very active. And believe me - he could kill you with a word - you pitiful name calling exclusivisitc for no reason Nazi wimp. And my grandmother's side were very highly placed in the heiarchy of the Church in Istanbul - and my great grandparents (who in fact continued to live in Istanbul ands serve in this capacity until the late 1950s) - they used their position (and their wealth) to establish a series of safe houses and a network (underground railroad) to enable prominent Armenians that the Turks were after to evade capture and escape to Greece and ultimatley (many ended up comming to) the United States. Some families were kept hidden from the Turks for over one year - while still in Turkey - before their escape could be aranged. They were cared for and kept hidden by my family at considerable risk to themselves. And also FYI - my Grandmother was a soloist with a magnificant voice who was personally tutored by Gomidas and sang in his choir. We have pictures of her with him. And I personally attended a function many years back where decendents of survivors (including some very prominant Armenians here in the States) as well as some aged survivors whom my family had hidden and facilitated escape from Turkey were literally crying at and kissing my Grandmothers feet in thanks and gratitude - I have never personally witnessed anything so powerfully emotional ever in my life - except perhaps once - at the reading of a list of names of Parisian Jews at the spot where they were rounded up and assembled - boxcar by boxcar - to be shipped away to camps - a reading that comprised several days around the clock of names being read - and included the entire family of a dear friend who was just a boy and escaped... My point being - you have no right - not a single grain of anything to stand on to try to critisize and denigrate my family - about which you know nothing at all and against which you are a complete and utter nothing - Mr I think I am wonderful and superior to others supposed Armenian. It is I who claim that you are not one of us. We have no need for your kind - you who are made of the same stuff and who think in the same manner as those who caused us and our families so much sorrow. You are a disgrace to the concept of what it is to be Armenian. And you know nothing - nothing at all.