THOTH

LOL - yeah I'm sure...eat one chilli-cheesburger in your car and you could smell it for weeks... Reminds me of another friend who didn't want chilli on his burger. Well I said no way - I insisted - he still refused. Of course - even though he had made it quite clear he wanted no chilli on his burger - they gave him one with chilli on it anyway....LOL

Yeah Azat - I miss In & Out (_urge_) (as it were...)...but it was always a Double Double, Neo shake & Fries for me - heard of Animal fries but not the rest. And actually/anyway I was always more of a Tommy's guy really...once actually sent a freind of on a flight back East with a box of Tommy's burgers in hand...

My my my...I can only imagine what prompted this... "well, i think marriage is an illusion...just like 'love' is..." neither is I think - each is very real... "everybody i meet tells me that i should not get married and so i won't have to deal with all the issues of marriage and all the baggage of the other person!!!... " Yes - difficult sometimes to be able to think not just of yourself first and foremost...but this is important for growing...otherwise you are always (basically) just a child...and do you ever imagine yourself having children? Well lots of baggage there (in a sense) and lots of issues to deal with...really - if you can't imagine yourself giving and doing things for others you should certainly never become a parent - and probably never get marrried..but you just mind regret - when your old and no longer such a catch (considered to be beautiful/desireable)...you just might regret your lonlyness/isolation and wonder why there is no one to give to/for you...no one who cares...who loves... "everything in this society is about sex sex and more sex!!! " No it isn't...its titilation...it has very little to do with real sex. Sex isn't masturbation - its about pleasuring another adult in a most profound way and (properly) its about love and caring and about sensuousness and physical passion...nothing at all to do with Madison Avenue, Hollywood or any of the rest... "monogamy is a strange and foreign concept to many...so what is this bullshit marriage all about? " Its about giving and commitment...it its not necessarily just limited to monogamy (and our society is adapting/altering this concept..if it even was so sacrisant [for everyone]...but it ain't really so bad...at least its regular... "a chance for someone to screw you and make you more miserable versus just making you a little less miserable if you were just dating?????..." Wow - don't really know what to say to this one...but why neccesarily miserable? Why not wonderful instead? "MOST people in our society are definitely NOT marriage material due to their immaturity, and utter selfishness..." Perhaps true...but even if we cull out "most" - still leaves lots of possibilities...there are lots of wonderful people out there too... "...and what then after a few years? they'll just get tired of you and go on to pursue another relationship or just cheat!!! these ARE the facts! but most people like to dream and fantasize that it is not!! why? it's just setting yourself up for more dissapointment!!!...." Perhaps, perhaps not...may depend on what kind of a lover you are eh? LOL ...and (seriously) on other things of course...and it doesn't have to be/isn't always that way...and cheat implys sneaking and dishonesty...perhaps there are other ways...don't set your sites so narrowly...necessarily...etc Hope thsi helps....but seriously...its not really so bad. You have just had some bad like. Like many pretty gals I've known in my life you sometimes/often get yourself in bad relationships. The guys seem like they have a lot going for them for whatever reason ( a fancy car, being on a winning sports team, and having a sweet tongue are not always the attributes for a long term succesful relationship for instance...and often lead to tyhe kind of guys who in the end won't treat you right). I really think you need to start dating ugly/normal, less well off, less ambitious or what not guys...just a suggestion...in any case you should likely broaden/increase your range of acceptable dates...who knows - you may find someone (nice & entirely OK...maybe even exciting and such) whom you never even knew existed...

MJ - I understand (and for the most part agree). And I am liking your recent posts/thoughts (care or not..and new or not...just wanted to say so...) So here is raising a glass to you from the far end of the bar...and perhaps I may even be willing to share with you some of my (fine) wine (and conversation/views of perhaps debatable merit/interest...LOL) if you are ever in the neighborhood - passing through - or what not...sure, why not...

MJ - Again I see much in your words that I can agree with. However I see the issue of Genocide recognition as perhaps more then us getting an official victim lable. And specifically I feel that the issue goes beyond this is several dimensions - one being the dimension of the universiality of the crime of Genocide - and along with it hope for some true history (oxymoron I know...but at least a more accirate understanding...from all sides)...but also that the lesson of mans inhumanity is not lost - and that proper aborance for such deeds is known and the perpetrators (specific...not just Turks generically) are properly condemned. This to me is the justice element (in addition to just accuracy of the historicl record etc) - that I think goes (or can) a long way to restoring our psyche as a people - and it just should be. The other issue is the legacy of our people in Anatolia - our history and our contributions (to humanity - to the landscape of Anatolia - to the Ottoman Empire and those that preceeded it - and yes, even to the culture and prosperity of the Turks of today). This is a recognition that I do crave for our people - even more so now that i have visited these lands and seen some of what remains of at least our physical legacy (and it it both very sad and very uplifting to see simultaniously...). I understand the stements that you and others make that our legacy - and/or our priorities should be the present - and should be the Armenia of now...and I agree - that this should be the pre-eminant concern for most Armenians - and that this is more important for our survival and our future (and thus eventually I guess - for our legacy). But this does not mean that some of us should not be concerned/dedicated and such to the other issues as well (Genocide (history, recognition or what have you)/cultural legacy in Anatolia and related etc) - as these things are important (or should be) to us as a people too - and at least some of us need to be concerned about these things as well. Sure - too much emphasis (and often in all the wrong ways) is placed on the Genocide and "recognition" issues etc - I agree. But this does not mean that (again some of us) should not be concerned about this and work towards some real progress and solutions [whatever these may be...] etc (and all of us will always have some concern about this - for obvious reasons) and others of us have interest in more anthropologic and archeology type of issues...etc. - and others in other aspects of our history/current condition or whatever. There is no shame in this (that we are not doing the right things etc - we should do what we are best suited/positioned to do) - even agreeing with you that the general first priorities should be the now (as our people/nation are certainly in crises - and our oppurtunity is now...etc). But each of us has different ability/interest etc to bring to the table and we should each attempt to contribute were we can do best and where we have the oppurtunity. I don't always agree with your positions and such - but I feel that you too are doing your part - and in fact I do agree with very much that you say - and much that some others here say as well (even if some seems contadictory...). Still - I know that Armenians are often much talk and little action (shame) ...but I can only hope that there are enough of us - and the right ones of us - to act (with the right vision, with sufficent resources) and do the right things...and of course I can only hope that Armenian leadership (in and out) can become sufficiently enlightened/concernd to act in a manner to place the good of our people above their petty interests...probably too much to really hope for...but sometimes one gets lucky and circumstance and such works to allow/enable such...but what we really need is for somehow leadership (governmental/organizations/private) to somehow emerge and energize us - and again - perhaps this is just a lucky roll that will occur or not. In the meantime we each much do what we can (even if its just complaining perhaps or protelisizing) - and hope that even through ideas we are able to influence...don't know really...

Marina - Welcome and thank you for your well stated and heartfelt posts. I am an American who in my heart did/does not support (justification for and implementation of) our actions in Iraq - but I 100% support our men and women over there and wish them safety and sucess. I also hope that they will come home soon - the sooner the better. I feel for you with your husband over there - I know some folks over there as well and though they are not family I am also filled with worry and concern for their families. I also feel for the poor Iraqi people - continually victimized...but what can be done now...damned if you do - damned if you don't.... I applaud your and your husbands (and brother in laws?) attitudes and wish you all the best. My father is/was also not Armenian - and while he never learned the language (neither did I) - as we did not live as/with/among Armenians he too adopted the Armenians as his own - learned the history...perhaps hated Turks (not really...but boy did we have it out about Ataturk - of whom I am a great admirerer - though understand his being the final nail for Armenians in Anatolia etc as it were...still). Anyway, on the bit about hating Turks - please don't - not that way. Hate was was done, and even hate those (specifically) who did such - but it is not right to hate an entire people. Turks come in all stripes - just like any peoples...and most Turks are ignorant of this (and other) aspects of their/the history...and most Turks are in fact good people - just like anyone else...and in fact even more friendly and open then most. Sure - we are justified in our anger and hurt - not only at what occured - but concerning the continued denial and attempts to erase our legacy. But this is more due to the elites in the government and academia (and the institutional denial ingrained into the psych of these Turks whose current nation is based upon the erasing of ethnicity in Anatolia and from certain national/ethnic myths whose foundation would be severly shaken if the truth concerning our Genocide [and the others from that time] were accepted). So please do not teach your husband and (eventual) children hate - this only destroys the hater - and has not done Armenians much good...teach them tolerance, acceptance and understadning. And through understanding come to appreciate both the good and bad of Turks and others - and understand how the Turkish people were also victims of very bad circumstance and very bad leaders. Our peoples have a long history togehter - and of course much was not good - as they came as conquorers - but much is shared and we are in many ways very much alike as peoples (as they are very much an aglomeration of the various peoples of the region). I think that it is not through hate and division that we will have justice/recognition/what have you of our Genocide - but through reaching an (eventual) understanding of/with the Turks - that they (again eventually) apreciate what they lost when they erradicated us...and that they feel sincere regret and sorrow for such. I know that this is likely a lolng way off (generations still perhaps?) - but I think that one day it will come (with both of our peoples maturing beyond where they are now). I don't know if any of this makes any sense to you or others here - but I feel this most profoundly. Hope this helps. And again welcome to our nice little community. (In what area of the US do you live BTW?)

One mans rebellion is anothers striving for justice etc. I have recently seen where Turks have practiced scorched earth ploicy (in the recent past - 1938) against the Kurds...and seen what is left....burned out empty dwellings...Turks were happy when Kurds did their dirty work - but after they were not useful for killing others Turks tried to bring upon them what they had done to others (wipe out and/or assimilate). Who said anythig about the PKK?

Hyebruin - I realy don't know what to say...but if you feel this way about love you have my sincere sympathy...(perhaps you more correctl refer to relationships or some such)...even still...

Mher - I don't really see Hendrix & Zep as strict metal per se...(and I love them both - Hendrix in particular...in fact I know the guy who is curator of the hendrix archive in Washinton State...[a big Zappa head BTW! LOL])....and there are many other "oldie" rock bands that are metal/pre-metal - like Deep Purple, QMS, etc etc etc (not to mention the many Euro metal bands)...that are all decent/worthwhile in there own way. I'm not at all a strict metal head BTW...though I have some friends that are...

Thats good...

OK Domino - no purpose...I understand...(though doesn't God have a purpose in all things?)....but also no reality (IMO)....I cannot believe in a soul apart from the body...our bodies (our chemical processes) are integral to our existance and we cannot exsist without them. Perhaps one day we will be able to provide an articial housing for our "esssaence" ie - mind...but we are still attached to some physical pressence - IMO...and I see no reason to believe that we can jump through the ether or whatnot from one exsitance to another... Oh and I also believe that once we are able to change our bodies (artificially or otherwise...) we fundementally change ourselves...we will no longer even be the same person (much as - but more so - as we change when we/our bodies age....)

Nairi - so does that go for any music - or just metal? If you like metal I really do think that the early Judas Priest albums are well worth seeking out (if your not familiar with them)...Stained Class!, Sin After Sin and Sad Wings of Destiny in particular...in fact on Sad Wings of Destiny there is a tune called Genocide...

Actually the last time I saw a ferrari....it was receeding in my rearview mirror! LOL (true...)

Nairi - don't really know what to say...I am such a driver - drive perhaps 20,000+ miles annually! That your dilema is actually alien to me. I do agree that one must practice to maintain proficiency and you sound like you are in danger of, well being a danger to yourself and others...don't you know anyone who has a car that would let you drive them around or some such once in a while? Don't know....perhaps some cute young boy who would be willing to give you "parking" lesssons besides...LOL

Pilafhead - I think I can agree with your post (rock on dude!) LOL... Myself - not a pure metal fan admittedly - as I like much other music - am partial to early Judas Priest (first 3 albums...), Motorhead (the purest of pure metal IMO) (Lemmy rules!), and (early) Black Sabbath (what can one say...). Still I think that SAOD is better then any of them...not (just) as a metal band (because they are more) but because of their music and message that transecends the metal genre and is really something interesting and unique in itself...and they are Armenian, brother - and are just awesome - yeah! (BTW - I still have an impressive collection...thousands of albums, literally...on vinyl....and several (classic) turntables (Dual/United Audio & technics) to play them on...)

Sasun - if (essentially) our world is an illusion...just to test us (for worthyness in the eyes of God) (and I think that this is essentially what many Christians are saying)...then again - what is the point of reincarnation (is it like going back to study to take your SATs for the second time?) Anyway - I don't think that we have to capacity to know...and all is pretty much utter unprovable speculation...I mean why not the pink pony or whatever? I think it is pretty much an utterly useless exercise to speculate on the nature/intent/etc of god/gods...except of course as perhaps an interesting intellectual exercise - to pass idle time or what not...but no real conclusions can be made (even in trancended state - IMO). We lack perspective/ability to comprehend such things - pure and simple (this is my belief...proive me wrong! Ha!)

OK - I agree that there are many (potentially negative) issues regarding the possible formation of a (land locked/beholden etc) Kurdistan etc ...however who are we to deny a people their self-determination...(for better or worse)...particualrly a people who have had a recent histoy of being supressed.

If you say so...though in fact I can't recall your saying anything of the sort...perhaps it was below audibility as most of what you said was except for complaints and insults of course. Still I do feel I at least owe you some thanks for your work/dedication in documenting (the state of) remaining Armenian structures in Anatolia...and for maintaining that excellent web site that you are responsible for...other then that please spare us from your one dimensional and ill informed views...particular concerning any comment on the capacities, senses and emotions of others - of which you have clearly shown little aptitude with. And as I said to you on Agktamar - it is a mistake to assume that others must be just like you to appreciate our historical legacy (including place & structures etc) - obviously you have dedicated yourself to such - and that is a noble and comendable thing - but don't assume that others cannot also see and feel and apreciate of their own accord - perhaps in ways which you may even be unable - or perhaps in ways similar to you - but arrived at through somewhat different paths. Sure a two week snapshot - or whatnot - is too brief I agree - and perhaps insufficient - but not meaningless - by no means...and yes we also have lives apart and other priorities...but there is nothing wrong with this - it is called a life (and perhaps you would be a better person if you had one) - and for most of us - who actually work for a living, this is about the most that can be expected - a once or twice in a life pigrimige of sorts - and nothing wrong with that - its just reality and again it does not automatically lessen (etc) such an experience (visiting ones homeland and becoming exposed to some of ones heritage). And don't asume that you have any real clue as to my senses and capacities - you don't. So stuff it.

LOL - Arpa I hear you (ie agree) - very much... but please do a search and read up on Deism a bit...somehow I think that you might be glad that you did...

Lol. Actually parking was the only decent thing I managed to do during my test Preferably an automated car that does everything for me, including steering, braking, and changing gears... LOL....I'm very sorry for you as not being able to drive (well/competently) is a serious detriment (and too bad I can't give you virtual lessons or some such - as I would be willing to help out...really/seriously)...I've long fantasised about opening my own driving school - "Offensive Driving" ! LOL - thats what I would call it (and much of what I could teach would certainly fall into that category...and its actually not a bad thing...thoughit may sound such)...of course (not seriously...) "parking" lessons could take on a different meaning, depending on the student of course...and her willingness to be "learned"...(LOL...couldn't help it - sorry...and I wonder if our non-native English speakers/Americans etc get this one...?)

Hyebruin - so sorry to hear....really...

Sasun - so sorry to hear....really so...

Sasun...well bless you...LOL. Your (seemingly simple/straightforeward) claims may not save you from hell (ie persuction by otherd claiming that their version of Christianity id right and yours wrong/heretical...and while what you are claiming as simple truth is still really very far from simple...as debates about just who/what was Christ and what does this concept/being stand for etc are still potentially very debatable (but please spare us...LOL)... And as for reincarnation...well I believe that it is counter to Christian concept of (temporary etc) life on earth and everlasting life in heaven...I mean whats the point - go back to live on earth as a snail? etc

Yes Arpa - in a sense I think you read me correctly (and boy thanks - I am not used to getting comments for my brevity...LOL). Are you faniliar with Deism BTW? However I should also add that I not only reject the Mythology (and in fact I have no problem with much of this as it exists to teach/illustrate lessons/concepts...its only when it gets taken too seriously...as fact etc...that one can debate and kill others for etc...that ist a problem...and becomes a waste of precious time....and reminds me of my once telling a fundementalist Chistian friend of mine that I would have no problem with Chitianity/christins per se - if only they didn't take the Bible so seriously...etc)...and anyway my original point - I in fact reject many much deeper and fundenmental concepts of Chistianity (and Islam as much/more so) - such as the concept of Sin...and this whole concept of God being opposed to man...and man being such a nasty little child that requires punishment etc....F-ing puritanical/fundie b-stards! Regulating good fun and all...f-em!

Super piece MJ. Not to knock your points concerning the role/position of Armenia or the failings of Diasporan Armenians (organizations/individuals calling for recognition & not dealing with Turks & willing to be bought etc) - but I see the Genocide as more then "just" an Armenian issue - but one for all humanity...of course it is also personal for us...and we cannot expect others to feel it nor champion its recognition and what not as we do. And I think that all your points are valid ones. And while I do agree that it is a mistake to view being an Armenian etc as striclty or primarily being a child of the Genocide - and do think that we must live in the present and look to the future (we must move on and be concerned with prospering and succeding from here on out etc) - I also see the Genocide as an ongoing thing that requires resolution/closure etc. And I see the isue as more then "just" the genocide itself...but the legacy of our people - a legacy that is equally unreconized and that is an ongoing victim of a continuing Genocide (in a sense) Think of the long history of Armenians in Anatolia...a very long and vital history...something key to us as a people - our environment that has shaped us - and the land that we in turn have shaped....and now we are no more there...only remnants of old churches and perhaps a few stories/fables etc as reminders of our presence (and even these too are quickly crumbling to dust and forgotten memory)...well its been less then 100 years...barely a moment in time...from when we were the life force of these lands and it the nurturing foundation of all our existance...I don't think that we can just turn away from this - nor do I think we go quietly - and allow the forces who wish(ed) us out of exsistance to suceed. By this I don't mean to champion any view that says we must attempt to retake these lands etc (because after alll land is just land and its people that really matter...)...but through recognition...not just of the Genocide - but of our heritage and contribution to Anatolia and to humanity (from our/by our achievements in Anatolia...and by this I mean the example of us as a people...our art, our culture, and all of the good and unique things about being Armenian)...it is all of this that requires recognition...in addition to the acceptance by the decendents of the purpetrators (and everyone else) that a great evil was done....(and many specific evils)...that have resulted in the elimination of a worthwhile and special people from their historic lands and the end of this people from participation in the ongoing legacy of Anatolia - to which they played such an influential role...and of course recognition that we have been denied the fruits of this land and the fruits of our long contributions. To me this recognition - and perhaps a future role/presence once again in these lands (and at the very least acknowledgement of our legacy) - in addition to sucess and prosperity and perpetuation of Armenians in Armenia and in the new lands of the Diaspora are still very real and worthwhile goals for Armenians of today....if that makes any sense to anyone...(and I know that perhaps what I am saying here is addressing your issues on tangentally...)...anyway...just on my mind of late...