THOTH

Domino - these contradictions only show that we are not obseving or acuratly understadning all phenomenon or all underlying elements (or even very basic underpinnings of order) etc. In the meantime certain things seem to work as predicted (even if cross disciplin) - OK. We can work form this - but at the same time we shouldn't be so locked in that we don't question the assuptions - they may only be working as a matter of coincidence - or because we have interjected some like mistake...etc - and to not be flexible and accept (and freshly interpret) new data (in unconstrained ways) could doom us to going off on some very false paths...(and thinking them true..)

Domino - I very much think there could be something to this -our universe is the ejecta from some huge black hole in some other universe thing (as I think you are in part implying). Cerain things seem to fit this explanation - however again - so much is just not know right now. And am I right in thinking that current date indicates that the rate of accceleration (from the mythical center) is slowing? Isn't "the latest" theory that our universe will somehow eventually collapse back upon itself (all that gravity & such from that confounded dark matter...)....

Domino - like you I have always been a sceptic of the Big bang theory. However I realize that I don't possess the scientific understandings to do more then have (at best) only a moderatly informed opinion. One thing I will say however - is that it is apparent to me that we don't know more then we know. There are layers of reality that are - at this time - beyond our perception - and it is presumptious to think we do or will know the "answers" to such questions with the limitations we have. So - at best - our understandings are incomplete and any conclusions are much as a religion. Still I support research, data gathering and discovery in these areas because every insight is certainly interesting and - at a certain level - useful perhaps. There are just so many phenomenon for which we have inadequat explanation for to really make any conclusions howevwer. What we percive is very limited - and we do not understand how time and space really work and how other dimensions and realities might interplay. If you are interested in these subjects however - there are a number of good books - fiction and non - that I could recommend (the fiction are based in current science and are very good brain strethchers). Are you familiar with any of the works in this area of Gregory Beneford? I think you might like some of his speculation...

Yes your correct Hybruin - where the sun would never shine! And "THOTH you Saw (a) THOTH"...funny. I am very sensitive about my eyes as I'm very nearsighted - to the point of near blindness and I've had this retina issue for a while now. In theory I was/am forbidden to play contact sports because of it - including (even) basketball (but thats never stopped me) - in fact I played B'ball last night. Though I wear safety/sports glasses...I've had my regular glasses flattened a number of times...no good... Several years ago my retina did develop a hole in it (pretty serious) after someone spiked a vollyball into my face (I was looking away - they were just returning the ball...like an a-hole...). Anyway - for a while my vision was very affected - but it partially healed (or more accuratly my body stopped trying to heal itself and the extra blood vessels went away...etc) and my mind has compinsated for the hole in the middle of my vision so I see OK now....only when I am under severe-long term stress does it occasionally return...like when my father died... I once worked at a job where a retina scan was needed to get in (for ID purposes)...well from day one I refused - and it became a bit of a problem - but eventually they relented and provided me with alternative means of entry. There was no way I was ever going to submit to such and I said so.

Yes Domino - we have seen such before. Its funny that - if you would believe Turkish claims - and a genocide was commited by Armenains upon Turks during this period - why so is it that there are no Armenians left in Anatolia - but today the place is crawling with Turks...

LOL - Sasun - i have long promoted this idea of an (eventual) confederation of the Caucuses nations...and been attcked (by nationalistic Armenians) for it! Glad to see that you are thinking along similar lines...

Some interesting/worthwhile points. but we shouldn't forget that Nazi Germany and the USSR were very concerned about buffer zones and such as well. Armenia is, and always will be a small and vulnerable nation.

I've had someone flash me with one of these in a crowd. Couln't tell who did it - but I did try to ID the culprit...that laser pen would have been performing an imprompto colonoscopy if I found the asehole. I have (potentialy serious) retina problems as it is and this would be all I would need to permanentlly loose my vision. These geek friend of yours are real a-hole...

Hmm Sasun - the article raises some very interesting points - though I'm not sure if the UN piece at the end fits in well with the rest...For one - i think its NATO that requires reformation and not the UN (and that this future NATO should be the organization to act militarily for the collective good of the West if so needed. NATO must grow to an organization that is inclusive of all free market democracies who share common values - to include Australia, NZ, Japan, S Korea, Brazil - etc etc (and others of course) - and certainly Russia (at some point...sooner rather then later if possible). Such an organization would not be NATO - but would require an entirely new (defensive) charter and strategy (that could perhaps include some sort of pre-emptive doctrine in the case of terroristic threats etc). Thus we would not be beholden to the UN for a consensus on threats against Western societies and values and we could act as a body - and not just the US (essentially) going it alone. Anyway - just an idea. Here is something you may want to chack out. Its an interesting article (from investigative jopurnalist Seymore Hersh) that elaborates somewhat on some of the thems of your post. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact

Yes perhaps Domino - but these things don't evolve linearly..and you never know...certainly there is very little reason to hope for much - based on past performance...and i understand that the stakes are high...but once a basic recognition is made i think the floodgates will come open...and if not - just think - for all those in the Genocide recognition "business' there will stil be more work to be done!

Domino - awesome list! Agree 100%...but this step is such a very long way off...

I'm not so sure about that. I think that if the Turks of today were able to blame the CUP etc - blame the Ottomans and consider these crimes of the past - commited by bad folks (during bad times etc) whom/which modern Turks reject - etc - then this might be possible. Obviously this takes some maturity and it would take being willing to dispel certain myths and confron certain realities. Its certainly not possible just yet - but who knows for the future...

A parking or speeding ticket is normally not considered a criminal offense - yet you still can be fined and such for it. I think this is the primary difference - and it is a major one I think. If legal - there would be no penalties for possesion etc - but if just decriminalized it still would be essentially illegal - just not treated as a criminal offense - but just a violation of law. I'm no lawyer however - so this is just a laymens understanding. In general I am oppsed to criminal penalties for any activity which does not harm/effect others - this includes not just drugs but prostitution and such. So at the very least I strongly support decriminalization of these sorts of activities. I also am generally in favor of legalization - but we must be careful of what message we are sending folks. Its not necissarily OK to support use (and perhaps abuse) of potentially dangerous or addictive substances. I certainly believe however - that the current laws are much too harsh and lead to more crime and corruption etc and that it would be in our best interest to at very least decriminalize and preferably find some way to legalize that won't lead to some sort of epidemic of use/over use of harmful substances. And even in the case of pot - smoking in particular - is not a healthy thing - and stoned people - just like drunk or otherwise impared folks are not necissarily a positive thing in the workplace or out in public and can be harmful to public safety and such...otherwise I would just say - "party on!" or such...

I want to question the idea that if Turkey were to recognize the Genocide that it would be the end of cohesion (or what have you) for Diasporan Armenains. I understand very well how the Genocide issue binds Armenians together in common cause and common experience. And that various activities aimed toward Genocide recognition motivate (and consume) many Armenians. What I question is that if/when Turkey recognizes the Genocide that this common concern/issue just goes away. Germany has certainly recognized the Holocaust - but Jews worldwide are still bound together by this experience and continue to be active in research, commemoration etc and this common experience still binds them together and they still "preach" of their experience to the rest of the world. Why then would this be different for Armenians. Obviously we dedicate much energy (and frustration) toward recognition - but would we not still commemorate this event and would we not still remember the suffering of our families and our common experience? Wouldn't we still be active in researching the issue to more fully understand it - perhaps even more so with "cooperation" from the Turks? So I don't neccisarily see that Genocide recognition by the Turks necissarily ends this common bond among us. In fact I think we may enter into a new and much more productive phase of activities with perhaps a new focus on our cultural and history aprt from just the Genocide with perhaps activities associated with exploring our Anatolian roots and such. Does anyone else see this similarly?

Sen - There was a great difference between early Young Turk (inclusive/liberal) ideology - and the views and actions of those who seized control of the CUP prior to the war. Thus the promiss of reforms and a better Turkey (for us) that Armenians (justifyably or not) believed in was shattered. And I am not sure that any Armenian leadership (if there was much of any anyway - outside of the Church..) - I don't think that they could have done much anyway. Arms and organization don't just appear overnight (or perhaps ever in certain environments - with minimal outside help...)...and considering numbers and such anyway Armenians never would have had much of a chance - i think regardless - the results would hgave been (essentially) the same...

I want to make it very clear that I reject this concpet of either Armenian weakness or Armenian rebelliousness as in any way "responsible" for our own genocide. Ceertainly each condition - being a weak "nation within a [relatively strong] nation" and the (completely understandable considering the conditions) presence of revolutionaries facilitated the conditons and excuse/justification for Genocide. But as for responsibility - no. We know the responsibility. Imagine being an Armenian in Anatiolia in 1914. Your position as a small minority in a large militarized state is de facto (and had been for hundreds of years). The Turks come to you - "Do you insist on being/remaining an Armenian" - if the answer is "yes" then by MJs definition I guess you are responsible for your own Genocide...

I feel that all who have commented on this thread thus far have a good understandfing and perspective on this issue. I don't think this is at all the case for many Armenians - and certainly not most Armenian leadership/political entities that I am aware of (outside of perhaps the Armenian Government itself - which seems very well to understand its reality...at least with its near neighbors and it seems the relevance and the drawbacks/stumbling block of the genocide and of the continued falling out with the Turks). I agree with your very concise and insightful post Sasun concerning the (different) naivities of both the Armenians (as a people) of Anatolia and of the political parties prior/during and after the war(s). The latter were idealists, children almost - politically speaking - who believed too much in the lies of others and who falsely thought (as much of the West did) that the Ottoman Empire was terminaly disinigrating (certainly true in part) and failed to see the fortitude and the wrath of the Turks (focused upon the Armenians and remaining minorities) and the ability of the Turks to rise up out of the ashes. The Turks were certainly blessed to have such a visionary, capable and terrible man as Attaturk at just the right time for them...though Talat did his part as well - no? Prior to the Genocide (obviously) no one could immagine in their wildest nightmares what was to occur. Perhaps even the (Young) Turks themselves (and certainly not the idealistic Armenians who financed and supported them initially) could not have fathomed the lengths and depths they would go to to achieve their ambition. And of course, as in any revolution - particualrly one with such a violent and all encompasing upheaval of the status quo - there is always the danger of extreme actions by extreme/fanatical/desperate/greedy types. But I fear that we paid in (very dear) blood (and more) for a lesson that the world still doesn't fully comprehand (or in our specific case fully accept...perhaps there is just too much guilt to go around?). Thus history has and shall repeat itself - at least in theme and essential outcome (likely ending, one day, in a future genocide of all humanity itself). As for now - for our situation - and this idea of Genocide recognition and beyond. Well I must agree with TBs (gloomy) assessment. Obviously (seemingly) much of the Diaporan Armenian political leadership understands at least some of this - thus they really see no need to change their (failed) tactics - being more tied to the perpetuation of the victimhood then truly wishing a solution. For this solution (Turkish recognition etc) would likely mean an end for their reason to exsist and an end of their unflagging support. Such a tragic shame - again we remain victims of genocide - but this time by both the Turks (Turkish Government/elites) and by our own representatives. Again - I don't know the answers. I believe that I have a somewhat unique perspective however. Though I am (at least in part) Armenian - I am in no way connected to any Armenian organizations and I certainly by and large don't live as an Armenian or within an Armenian community. Yet I have educated myself regarding the history and the issues and I acutely feel the pain of our experience and of the tragedys of my family and of my family's family. Still I can also view the Diaspora and Armenians from an outsider (somewhat American perhaps...) perspective - though from a relatively informed (and concerned) vantage. Thus I have come to my conclusions/understanding/opinions...yet I am at a loss as to how to proceed - for myself and for us. This is an issue that I care deeply about. We are still terribly wounded as a people and we are cut off from much of our heritage. I see reconcilliation with the Turks as very important for our future (and equally - or perhaps even more so for theirs!) So for the meanwhile I can only do what I can to reach out to Turks (and Armenians) and do what I can to educate - and perhaps soften some (negative) attitudes that are so hardly held on both sides. And in the meantime I am still listening and learning.

vava - agreed

Sasun, Arpa - very god points. And i certianly don't know any real answers - wish I did. I still calim that we were "innocent" - even - to some degree acknowledging certain (violent/reolutionary) activities...that, as you have said, had to happen - still, by and large the Armenian people were "loyal" (or simply just not politically involved) and innocent. And your points about the wealth and intlectuals being urban and primarily in/from Istanbul is also well taken. And are these the divisions that divide us still - or is it different/for differentr reasons today?

Stormy - some very good points.

Kocharian stated - correctly - that the State of Armenia has no land claims whatsoever against Turkey with respect to the Genocide. Kocharian is a very clever man. As much as I wish - like you and other Armenians whose families were from Anatolia - that we could have our ancient homeland back - I don't think that in the traditional sense (of nations with borders...) it can or will ever happen. One cannot really expect turkey to just give up this land. Other nations who have taken land (in the past) have not given it up. Remember this land was conquered in the 11th and 12th Centuries. There has been no Armenian nation in Anatolia since this time. Additionally, it would be immoral to take it back by force even if it could be done. Those who live on this land now are largely ignorant and innocent of any crime against us. And we would be forced to commit similar atrocities to seize "land" ...it would certainly put us in the best of companies - no? We must understand that - for all practical purposes - that is no longer Armenian land - and it never will be - not in the way that it was. Others live there now. Even if Turkey were to hand it over to Armenia or such - and all Armenians would be invited to come settle - how many would actually come? Some certainly (but compared to the numbers of Turks & Kurds who live there now?) - and look at Armenia today. People migrate towards oppurtunity and a good life for their families. What is there for Armenians now in Anatolia except for memories? As for the Turks giving Ararat back. I don't see that either. The mountain has meaning to them and others as well - even if it perhaps has a much more central meaning for us. Ani clearly has no value to any group but Armenians - except perhaps for some future tourist value - even then... And again- like Kocharian - I seperate the issue of personal land claims/compensation with that of state to state issues. Even there - if Armenia has land claims about Turkey - they arise not from the genocide - but after, when there was, briefly a republic which had internationally (treaty) recognized borders - and there is certainly no benefit making any issue of such (now) regardless...(and how pragmatic would it be to acknowledge such now? ...it would only confirm Turkeih paranoia and harden them even further...) And i don't think that Armenia has a care to embarrass Turkey or such. In many ways just the opposite - they wish to be good neighbors. I think that overwhelmingly they want assurance that they will not be swallowed up and they want the oppurtunity to trade and prosper in the region. The Turks are the prime factor in each to a great degree...but certainly the Genocide issue is in the heart of every Armenian - so even if not in pure self-interest - it cannot be entirely forgotten or tossed aside...thus we sacrifice and are victimized still...

Yes, interesting and sad...a very bad sign IMO.

Yes, of course. When I have been to Turkey I have certainly seen many poppies growing about. I couldn't tell you if they are the "good" (or "bad") kind...(depending on your perspective I guess). What I did see a lot of for sure though - was sunflower seed production - unbelievable quantities of such growing in fields and piled up on the side of roads. Sorry i have no insight to your core question however...I have no idea really - though somhow I doubt that it (opium production) continues in any big (exportable) way in Turkey these days...seems like the Generals did eventually crack down on it hard...

No doubt. Though perhaps he will remember his proper pre-date routine and be prepared with some hair mousse for you (a la "Something About Mary") - LOL. Don't know why your comments reminded me of that (very funny scene...) but they did...

I have had a full beard pretty much since I was a Freshmen in College. (but its very soft and not bristly at all...sometimes I let it grow out a bit - but ussually I keep it shaved fairly close). Prior to the beard (a long long time ago...) I had a goatee - exactly as you describe...of course an Uncle suggested that i should shave my head, wear big ole gold hoop earings! (LOL) and that I would look positively wicked! (never! - not with my [great] hair!...and considering that nearly all of my many [Armenian] cousins [save two besides myself] have pretty much lost all theirs!). So i will definatly keep the hair! (as long as possible) Also I don't personally believe in body adornments (earings and piercings & such)...for myself that is... Anyway - the reason why I post all of this is that my wife has been bothering me to shave off my beard - as she has never seen me (except in old pictures) without it! Well I have resisted of course (and my mother has been trying to get me to shave it since I first grew it! Sometimes threatening to cut it off while I sleep! So she never is allowed to stay the night anymore...LOL). Well I have responded with a compromise offer - to shave down to a goatee as you all have (vulgarily - LOL) described. So what do you think - should I do it? One benefit is that it will eliminate all of my grey hair - which is only comming in a bit (so far) on my sideburns...