THOTH

Hmm lets see Rev Sun yung Moon claims to be god - and so many others...so yeah - I think Socrates' got it right...

Turkish Failure To Enact Penal Reform Could Have Been 'disaster': Verheugen AFP: 9/23/2004 ANKARA, Sept 23 (AFP) - Turkey's failure to agree to enact a penal code reform crucial to its European aspirations could have resulted in "disaster," EU Enlargement Commissioner Guenter Verheugen said in an interview Thursday on Turkish television. Verheugen played down the importance of the adultery clause Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) wanted to introduce into the penal code reform bill, sparking a week of crisis between Brussels and Ankara. "It was not a matter of discussing the adultery clause," Verheugen said, his remarks in English translated simultaneously in a voiceover in Turkish. "What was important was that a major part of the penal code reform was delayed," he said, as a result of AKP insistence on criminalizing marital infidelity. "This could have turned into a disaster." The adultery issue, he said, "had negative repercussions on European public opinion, and I relayed what could happen if the clause were not withdrawn" in talks with Erdogan that broke the deadlock Thursday in Brussels. Verheugen is scheduled to release a vital report on October 6, assessing Turkey's readiness to engage in full membership talks with the EU. An EU summit on December 17 will base itself on the report's recommendations to decide on if and when to launch the accession negotiations. "We managed to solve the problem," Verheugen said of his meeting with Erdogan, there are no more obstacles as far as I am concerned." Immediately after the talks, Turkish officials announced that the house had been convened for an emergency session Sunday to enact the bill to bring the country's dated, 78-year-old criminal code up to European standards -- without the adultery clause. Asked to explain the crisis that caught everyone by surprise -- the reform bill was two articles from full enactment when the AKP withdrew it from the floor -- Verheugen said the matter was best "left to historians: it was a sudden, unexpected crisis." Verheugen praised Erdogan's "courageous leadership," saying the Turkish prime minister "took an important, courageous step." The commissioner reiterated that he did not believe Turkey would be ripe for full membership until at least 2015, even if it gets an immediate date to launch membership talks. Copyright 2004 Agence France Presse. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AFP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of Agence France Presse. http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=28223

EU Official Satisfied with Turkey's Reforms VOA News 23 Sep 2004, 12:20 UTC European Union Enlargement Commissioner Guenter Verhuegen says he is satisfied with Turkey's progress on reforms in the country's effort to join the 25-member group of nations. After meeting Thursday with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Brussels, Mr. Verhuegen told reporters "there are no further conditions" necessary for the European Commission to make a recommendation on starting membership talks. EU leaders are expected to make a final decision at a summit in December on whether to start membership talks with Turkey. In another development, Turkish officials say parliament will reconvene Sunday to discuss differences over a delayed penal code reform package. Mr. Erdogan withdrew the package last week after conservatives insisted on criminaizing adultery. The EU was critical of that clause. Some information for this report provided by Reuters, AFP, AP.

hmm - well sometimes one can be a bit too mysterious and cause others to lose interest... And as for maintining interest over many years - well yeah - can be difficult...I think its important to attempt to avoid patterns as much as possible...so do different things form the norm, travel to new places, do different (and new) types of activities...and try to surprise your SI every once in a while...etc etc...and some folks are more comfortable/content/satisfied with certainty and sameness - its how they are wired...so its easier for them - others - like you Eve - demand more obviously. Another factor is children. They become a source of the new and wonderous as they evolve/grow...they also tend to take a large part of ones/a couples time and focus and sometimes keep you so busy you don't have time to think of much else (not a good thing - but just the way it is....and thus the other aspects of a relationship require more effort)

lol - sounds a lot like me in many ways... ...no suggestions really - but try to care more..don't know...its tough being creative and curious &such isn't it...normal day to day things just don't hold the interest...I completley understand...

And while I have the Pink Floyd Lyric sheet up in response to a post on another thread...(just seemd appropriate here - thinking of belief and how we envision our god/gods...) Pink Floyd Sheep Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air You better watch out There may be dogs about I've looked over Jordan and I have seen Things are not what they seem. What do you get for pretending the danger's not real Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel What a surprise! A look of terminal shock in your eyes Now things are really what they seem No, this is no bad dream. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want He makes me down to lie Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by With bright knives he releaseth my soul He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places He converteth me to lamb cutlets For lo,m he hath great power and great hunger When cometh the day we lowly ones Through quiet reflection and great dedication Master the art of karate Lo, we shall rise up And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water. Blasting and bubbling I fell on his neck with a scream Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream. Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead! You better stay home And do as you're told Get out of the road if you want to grow old.

Pink Floyd Pigs (Three different ones) Big man, pig man, ha ha, charade you are You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are And when your hand is on your heart You're nearly a good laugh Almost a joker With your head down in the pig bin Saying "keep on digging" Pig stain on your fat chin What do you hope to find? When you're down in the pig mine You're nearly a laugh You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Bus stop rat bag, ha ha, charade you are You ***ed up old hag, ha ha, charade you are You radiate cold shafts of broken glass You're nearly a good laugh Almost worth a quick grin You like the feel of steel You're hot stuff with a hat pin And good fun with a hand gun You're nearly a laugh You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are You house proud town mouse, ha ha, charade you are You're trying to keep your feelings off the street You're nearly a real treat All tight lips and cold feet And do you feel abused? ...!...!...! You gotta stem the evil tide And keep it all on the inside Mary you're nearly a treat Mary you're nearly a treat But you're really a cry.

All right Socrates! Way to say it man! (you too Ara...)

...but its really a cry?

Perhaps Turkey is putting its propaganda machine into high gear? ...no doubt... So how do you feel about the possibility of eventual integration of Turkey into the EU - if all requirements are basically met (not just lip serviced) - do you support the idea - or not? Ultimatly I think it is a good thing...

maybe he/she/it/them etc is/are undead...what about that?

From Yesterday's Washington post. I can actually agree with much of this - however a very rosey pictures and one that glosses over many very serious issues - AG being one...and other issues of Turkish suitability and just how great a model Turkey is (or isn't) and just how much will Arab and other Muslims ever look to the (disliked...at best) Turks. But I do agree that ultimatly it is in the best ionterest of Europe and the West for Turkey to eventually be integrated and I think that the standards will and are forcing Turkey to positive reform - and I certainly see this as a good thing - and hopefully somethaing that will last nad feed on itself and not just be lip service... Rejecting Turkey, And the Future By Fareed Zakaria Tuesday, September 21, 2004; Page A21 Here's a quiz: Over the past two years, which developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic, political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: This country has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and put its fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a 10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government, enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict laws against torture, abolished the death penalty, and given substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey. Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last week, its long quest to become a full member of the European Union may be thwarted. The Turkish government's insistence on introducing a law making adultery a criminal offense may have derailed matters. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has angrily pointed out that the issue of adultery is not part of the criteria laid out by the European Union. He's right technically, but foolish politically. The reality is that there are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the union because it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim. The adultery law gives them a highly public issue to symbolize their fears. But even if the adultery law passes, so what? European hysteria about this is absurd. Many are claiming that this represents the dangers of Islam in Europe. Have Europeans forgotten their own history? Adultery is banned in the Ten Commandments and was a criminal offense in almost every European country until recently. Ireland abolished such a law in 1981, France in 1975, Italy in 1969. In the United States, 23 states still have such laws on the books. Don't get me wrong: I am opposed to the Turkish law. But to judge a developing country such as Turkey by the standards of postmodern Europe circa 2004 seems to miss the point. If Turkey were a fully modernized society, it wouldn't need E.U. membership. Besides, were Turkey to become an E.U. member, the adultery law would quickly be null and void, since the European courts would rule against it. What is being lost in the uproar over adultery is that even last week, while debating this one relatively trivial issue, the Turkish parliament passed 218 laws that reform the penal code in accordance with the European Union's criteria. Turkey's record of reform is the equal of most previous candidates for E.U. membership. A distinguished group of Europeans, including former Finnish prime minister Martti Ahtisaari, released a report two weeks ago pointing out that Turkey compares well with two other E.U. applicants, Bulgaria and Romania. And what is truly being lost is perhaps the most significant point: All these progressive, modernizing moves are being made by a ruling party that represents the people, unlike so many of the liberals in the Arab world, who are an unelected elite. The AK Party has shown that a devotion to Islam is compatible with liberalism, pluralism and democracy. For this reason it is the most powerful symbol of modern Islam in the world today, a symbol that could have resonance for the Middle East, Europe's own Muslim population and the entire Islamic world. For decades people have held up Turkey as a model for Muslim politics. But as Graham Fuller points out in an insightful essay in the Washington Quarterly, this was a Western fantasy. Kemal Ataturk's hypersecular republic, allied to the United States and Israel, was never going to move the hearts of Muslims. The AK Party has changed even that. By softening the edges of Turkey's secularism, by emphasizing clean government, by reaching out to the Middle East, it is becoming a more approachable model for Muslims. But to build this image it must be able to do things that reflect the concerns of the Muslim masses, not the elites. That might include laws that reflect the deep concern in every Muslim country that as they modernize, they will become permissive and licentious. This concern is not uniquely Islamic. Every conservative movement and party in the Western world has worried deeply about this for the past 200 years. In the end the European Union decision will not be about Turkey's performance, which has been better than anyone could have hoped. It will be made by a Europe that is either confident or scared of the future. The former would see that Turkey could help solve its labor shortages, help with its problems assimilating Muslim populations and send a powerful signal across the world. The latter is best symbolized by the leader of the German conservatives, Angela Merkl, a bitter opponent of Turkish membership who acknowledged these positive effects but said recently, "I look inward." Alas, there are too many European leaders today who look only inward. comments@fareedzakaria.com

yuk, yuk & yuk... ...and I'll refrain from further comment here...

always! ...and don't fret Ara - I often find that you are not boring!

Yes so - true - been in this situation countless time myself...(just a bit slow is all...)...funny though some of my cowrkers seem to think I've got some pretty slick moves with the ladies (that I don;t at all see...just being myself and unconcerned thats all....)...stress is a big part of it... Anyway - some great stories Eve...such a closet little romantic you are...lol

Domino - when have I ever rejected the paranormal? (and what does this post of yours have to do with anyting in this thread or what I posted?)...anyway - I do believe in unexplainabel phenomenon and that we may have abilities and such that we cannot understand/account for. I'm not proscribing any specific cause of such though - when I don't know what it is...

Yeah - sounds like great Geek fun..... ...perhaps you should just grab him by the hair, pull his face down and kiss him long & deep! Just a friendly suggestion of course...

Most excellent - good to see. Turkey does have such a long way to go. But unlike many others I'm rooting for them...because it will mean (one would hope) a succesful transformation of their society/culture...as well as cleaning up some of their dirty laundry...(and also both as an example to and bulwark against the hard lined Islamist and dictator led reigems of the Middlle East/Arab world)...they must be held to task though and not shoehorned in without stepping up to the obvious conditions.

Yes!! Likewise Christ (if there ever was such a dude) is a faiure (though was Paul a success? ..in a sense perhpas ..but even he...)...yes and you gotta put the blame on all the believers...ignorance (of the message...willful or otherwise)...and hypocrisy abounds....much better off without...IMO... Good points Ara! You the man!

Nairi - I feel for you girl...but in many ways I don't see you as being atypical. Society places so many burdens/expectations on women. And as much as thye (you/others etc) might deny or reject much on the surface - sometimes its hard to not internalize much of this. With you though - it is clear that you are independent and can function quite well on your own. This should give you confidence. You should be able to date with no worries. Look at your relationships positively - revel in the fun times and appreciate what you get out of them - in the now - and don't worry where it will lead. If it is meant to be (and boy do I hate that phrase - but essentially it fits here) - it will happen...and if not...you are young - and there is a whole world (of men - etc) out there. So no worries! Live...and enjoy! Life is good.

Funny - I wonder how many of our nationalist Armenian friends here would agree with such... Article made some good points IMO - thanks for the post. And Amat - i think it is a big mistake to assume that all Jews (and perhaps even that most Jews) just lockstep support the policies of Sharone and some of the more extreme Israeli policies. However that many do should be no surprise either. Again I can only imagine if the hyper-nationalistic (Diasporan) Armenians were in similar shoes. Even her in the states. A few terrorist attacks of more symboloc then actual magnitude and the nation is already turnign reactionary. I don't support the extreme Israeli policies - but I certainly understand their mindset and why such positions have come about...and I think most of us - if we were in a similar situation - might think similarly to they...not excusing the extremism...(the opposite in fact as each side's extremism has and is feeding the other)...and again - not all Israelis or Jews support such...the trick is - how can we get them out of the mode of continuing to support extremist policies...short of a nuke going off in Tel Avieve? Perhaps less of a blank check (in every sense of the word) from the US would help a bit eh...but this required policy makers of courage and vision...instead we are stuck with mostly insecure panderers...

Well your certainly no fun...

Whoo hoo! Well you just made his day babes!

Well Eve - thanks for the positive and I suppose somewhat accurate assessment (but I would be more then happy and agreeable for you to rank Gamavor ahead of me here...). I do think though that perhaps you have underestimated Extra and Stormy's prowess (when they want to...) Unlike Domino - I think I'm pretty much exactly like I am in person as I am on the forum(s)...with perhaps (in person) a bit more tempering in some areas..but perhaps not in others... And yeah - I do like (and appreciate) women (on all levels) - and thats important - and perhaps not univesally for all guys... And Eve - by all means do not discount your own flirting prowess (and yous a hottie - thats fer sure... ) ...and I feel compelled to add that we miss Bruin in this regard..even if she somewhat temprered her allure with some (perhaps generally accurate - but overplayed) neagativity concerning guys in general...

well, yes...but not for this silly little mistake...