THOTH

Again - I'm not the one claiming to have a monopoly on the truth and claiming that those who don't agree with me will recieve eternal punishment from some imagined celestial being. So yes - I am not going to let such garbage post uncontested - just like I won't just let some Turk post making claims about the Genocide and what I as an Armenain must believe etc etc - I'm responding appropriatly IMO - and I will continue to do so. If you really think that posting nonsense about my wife is on the same level (response to my objections concerning religion) - well thats your problem really. You may not have noticed but I am fairly well read and understanding of various religions and religious practices, doctrine etc of the world (not just confined to Christianity....so if you fail to comprehend that I make very valid (and serious) points - then again its your problem....and again - I'm not forcing my beliefs down your throat - its the other way around - so who is the one who is offending who (the "you" in this case not necessarily meaning you as an individual - but those who protheletize continuously on this forum - very much including Sasun - who seems to knwo all of the answers (or thinks he does) - yet is so very quick to edit any critique or arguments that might portray his cult beliefs in a negative light...etc

So its OK for you and Sasun to voice your opinions and disagreements - but not me? What gives you more right?

Why am i required to adress anything you wrote. Maybe I agree with what you wrote (on religion or whatever) and see no need to comment - maybe I don't care what you wrote - etc - thats my business - I wil comment on what I feel like commenting on. And when did I tell you to shut up? I just said you are not saying anything relevant or worthwhile IMO - and again I didn't say "shut up" I asked what business is my personal life and a discussion of such on this forum to you? none. And I answered your question besides. (and BTW my wife is more an atheist - and less tolerant/understanding of [preachy] Christians then I am...). Anyway I am adressing the issues of relgion - and seriously - even if I might joke - while you are trying to make this personal. So OK - you have made your little point (or attempted to) - so what else do you have to say regarding my personal life - of which you know nothing.....

yeah - who here asked asked/begged to be preached to...this is my point..yeah if someone comes on here and starts making statements such as "There is only one way to approach the true and living God of the Universe" "The world has only two forms of religion. One that is true and one that is false." "Hell is real, you have believed a lie." etc etc and so on and so forth.... Well you are saying its OK for someone to post such things? Not in my book....so stop trying to censor me. When have I ever started some thread saying "don't believe" etc - but don't tell me I can't post in response to such (insulting - to me) garbage!

ArmenSarg - my "arguments" or what have you concerning Christianity and religion in general are certainly no sillier then the likes of onnig, you and others spouting off what is and isn't true in your minds and how we must all believe etc etc - so stuff it. And as I have said - your comments concerning my wife have absolutly no bearing on reality - much as your overall concepts of reality are quite lacking due to belief in outmoded and discredited doctrine. And are you just going to repeat your same ignorant contention concerning my wife or do you have other equally meaningless speculation to add?

Exactly - you have no clue....so my advice to you - same I would give to onnig - is keep the preaching to yourself.... PS - I've never been called boring...by anyone....lol...so again you are - as I have said - without a clue... I'm also not naive or innocent and in fact have a very developed understanding of many things my friend...so yeah - you are the one who is speculating and such without knowledge - so go on - invent your (explanation for) reality that you have no empiricle knowledge of - keep on as you have....just keep it to yourself - I have no need to hear...

...oh yes - the Trinity.... ...regarding the Christian Trinity concept - as with nearly everything of the Christian religion it is both derivative and a corruption of concepts from prior (classical Greek in this case) religion....(and as usual the Christian corruption acts to specifically exclude the female aspects of divinity making such entirely male (boring, nasty & judgemental) - yet another example of Christian corruption...[of the human spirit]) Are you familiar with the concept of the Three Graces? The Three graces were : Aglaia (Splendor), Euphrosyne (Mirth), and Thalia (Good Cheer)... The Graces presided over banquets, dances, and all other pleasurable social events, and brought joy and goodwill to both gods and mortals. They were the special attendants of the divinities of love, Aphrodite and Eros, and together with companions, the Muses, they sang to the gods on Mount Olympus, and danced to beautiful music that the god Apollo made upon his lyre. In some legends Aglaia was wed to Hephaestus, the craftsman among the gods. Their marriage explains the traditional association of the Graces with the arts; like the Muses, they were believed to endow artists and poets with the ability to create beautiful works of art. The Graces were rarely treated as individuals, but always together as a kind of triple embodiment of grace and beauty. In art they are usually represented as lithe young maidens, dancing in a circle. Got to hand it to the Greeks...at least they understood women...and art, beauty, and good fun...unlike these humourless nasty Christians - a pox upon us...

Where did you read that this was a Christian only forum. Yeah you can go to hell too!

It is you who are presuming things that are totally unknown (to you)...

I am confident of perfect honesty in our marriage (you are so without a clue here my friend...lol) - but WTF business is it of yours...

hm, maybe onto something here... ...sex, drugs and rock and roll! OK - I can dig it!

I never ceased to be amazed how much time, energy, thought and what have you people waste on complete and utter uselessness...like postulating and arguing about the attrubutes and likes and dislikes (and demands) of immaginary beings and thinking that our pitifully narrow concepts (god)have any bearing on anything that is reality - no chance - and this just seems so obvious to me - ..don't know...even supposing we can at all even begin to much understand the universe/multiverses around us....at least lets use some tools (scientific observation and application) instead of relying on myth ad fary tale... primatives...what can I say....

One question - why does the supreme being care if we "sin" ...whats the big deal? And does the punishment fit the crime? Anyway all just hypothisizing as GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

"Gods wrath" ...but a way out - if we submit (hey have you ever looked into Islam?).... "Hell is real" - really? Your god sucks and you are fool.....what can I say...(sorry all...)

argh - OK - I self editied here...you happy Edward & Sasun....anyway - its just this sort of preachyness (and this - there is one way and only one way - and that is my way - attitude) that makes me just nuts about religion and "believers"....and this is why atheism is not a rteligion - well one of the reasons - I mean when have atheists ever gone on a crusade to convince others to not believe?

yes - of course...well said as usual IMO any "religion" that condemns newborns to hell (or wherever it is - not heaven - etc) - and this whole concept of "original sin" - even sin (against some [conceited] god imposing such on us)....[edited out] - no friend of mankind or anyone - and deserving of nothing (even if he did manage creation - and of that I am in serious doubt - likely claiming he did such because we are too ignorant to know different)...anyway such god is (essentially) evil IMO and those who push their narrow, hateful, unkowing beliefs on others - and imply or threaten others with eternal punishment etc - I say -

LOL false...so what does that make your belief Winston lets keep it nice, shell we please?

Yeah - I've enjoyed jury duty as well - sure its a hassle - but an eye opener in a great many ways...so generally I would say go for it - and it is part of citizenship - and this is important IMO.

I've heard people praise Bogle before - but I've never had any myself... The Shiraz we had was a 1998 Penfolds RWT (red wine trial) - (also known as "baby Grange" as it is made from younger grape vines of the same - very famous vinyard - where Grange is from...)....the 98 has been the pinnacle for this wine so far I think - its a magnificent wine - and we drank my last bottle...when I realized how great they were drinking...well I drank all of mine! lol I originally paid about $40 for the bottle (maybe $45) - several years back - a great price...but I recently did a search for the wine and the best I could find it for was about $120 a bottle...and I think it will be tough to find...(and would you really pay that much for it? Great wine - sure...but..) - I would suspect that the 2001 and the 2002 vintages will drink as well as the 98 (probably not available yet...) - but the word is out i think (so it likely will be perhaps in the $60-80 range right off the bat - my guess...) There are some very righteous Aussie Shirazs to be had in the $30-40 range...I could perhaps recommend a few if your interested. 2001 vintage was great.....2002 even better (for Mclarean Vale - where the best Shrazs are from...and Barrosa and the other prime Shiraz areas) I need to check (again) that exporter who was offering Ararat wine from Australia....they had a very extensive Aussie offering - some prices were quite good...others were just OK...

addendum.. I just thought of another real value wine that drinks quite well - the Smoking Loon California Cab (2001/2002 vintages)...to be had for under $10 I think. World Market has this wine as well as the Falesco Vitiano (and sometimes the Merlot) and the Seghiso as well as some other nice wines. Bith the Vitiano ad the Seghisio are on sale now I think...The Bonny Doon wines are ussually fun to check out as well. The Big House Red (blend) ussually drinks very nice. (its a wine I often give to plumbers, electricians, carpenters, heating and air guys etc who do work at te houese - as a tip...always goes over well...)

LOL - Eve - I would recommend the Anubis Gates by Tim Powers - great time travel book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/044...9278884-4303106 In fact all his books are great - worth checking out - with my favorite being "the Stress of her regard" (read the reviews...awesome book...) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books ..also cheack out "Declare" - much sorounding Mt Ararat (and in fact Powers seems to have some Armenian characters in most of his books) and the whole "Last Call", "Expiration Date" andn "Earthquake Weather" series...awesome.. and another fave - "Dinner at Devients Palace" anyway he is one of my all time favorate authors - and is most amazing IMO...very readable...

My wife and I actually discussed, debated and researched this issue quite a bit for our two boys. Ultimatly we felt that there was no right or wrong - but we felt it might be somewhat better hygenically (to circumsize - and we did)...and considering how much we struggle just to get our kids to brush their teeth I think we made the right choice. And I can certainly sympathize with the ladies who might like the look better...and other related factors....again all reletive and individual preference and such... A couple of things regarding the pleasure issue - I dispute that there is more with versus without - though tough to really prove - and I think it is quite relative (to a lot of things) anyway...secondly - does it make any difference if one is using a condom? - I would think not and third - most guys I know have problems holding out as the pleasure is too intense...so perhaps if it were a bit less maybe sex would last longer...don't know...(while I can agree about the pleasure aspect I ussully don't have this problem..though it can happen to the best of us at times...luckily for some of us it doesn't always matter...LOL - though I've certainly lost some of this ability with age...shame...)

No problem Eve - enjoy....(I certainly do)... Lets see - I'm recalling a few names - Bullers Tokat is a very nice Aussie "sticky" ... The las Terrasses I mentioned as being from Monstat in Spain is actually a Piroat wine (normally more expensive/more prestigious region - though this one is of more value then most there [my favorite Spanish wines BTW..but not at all cheap......and drinks pretty well) - I was thinking of Larona from Monsta - a similar - and a bit cheaper wine. Lets see - some more - Ok - German Rieslings which i really like (note - may not be te cheapest ones - but their value is still great) - JJ Prum - of course, Selbach-Oster, Christophel, Robert Weil, Dr Thanisch, Shloss Sarrenstein...etc (what was a real thrill for me this summer was actually to get out to some of the vinyards [along the Rhine and Mosel primarily] and see where these wines come from!) I also sometimes can find some values even in Bordeaux - but we are ussually talking upper teens to mid-high twenties (at best). Still some very nice wines to be had from the Laland du Pommerol and Montaigne and Lusaac St Emillion areas - primarily Merlot & Merlot blends - simply delicious (in a good vintage) - try 1998 if you can still find them or - of course 2000 (great vintage for Bordeaux). I also like the quite tannic Cab based wines from St Estephe - though they are not ussually as readily accesible - values can be found...look for Lafron Rochet, Ormes de Pez...others...and some/most name Chateaux put out 2nd wines - ussually thiner and with less character then the #1 wine - but often quite good none the less. Bahans Haut Brion is a favorite. Another is Haut Bages Averonous (both probaly can be found in the mid 20s to mid 30s range...) Oh and Zins - Seghisio - Sonoma County - their most basic wine I think - mid/low teens at most and simply wonderful - 2001 & 2002 vitages both drinking great. Other Zins to look for are Renwood, Rosenblum (lots of small single vinyard plots - but even the vinters cuvee - a cheaper blend - is ussually pretty good - and cheap)...and my all time fave (though more expensive) - Ridge Lyton Springs - a magnificent Zin blend - probably upper 20s to lower 30s but drinks much much richer...(again get the good vintages...just avoid 98 for anything California and your probably at least OK...) And funny - speaking of inexpensive wines...(knowing my wine interests) a coworker of mine gave me a bottle of Concha Y Torre Merlot to try (2003 vintage) - he was raving about it...can't say I was overly thrilled...though I did manage to finish most of the bottle....it had a funny sour initial note - a bit of sweetness - no real depth of flavor or distinction - but i guess it went down smoothly (no tannins to speak of...but sometimes I really like thoose -teeth coating - tannis - what can I say...) and it was certainly sweet... I have to say the all time bargain wine value has to be the Trader Joes Charles Shaw Cabernet. Again - it is benefiting from an excellent series of vintages...I would recommend the 2001 if you can still find it..but the 2002 should be nearly as good I imagine (haven't tried it yet)...the merlot is not up to the standard IMO. The CS cab is not bad - a bit thin and on the sour side - but drinks pretty well considering... Still there is the old adage - you get what you pay for - and while it may not always be true in wine - it is very difficult to find a truly outstanding wine for under $30-40 IMO (except for perhaps some outstanding German Rieslings which can be found in the low to mid 20s) - but once you breach this price point there are some real fine wines. I would highly recommend Chateauneaf du Papes - such as Pegau, Beaucastle, Vieux Donjone, Janese, Charvin..and of course there are more. There are also many Southern Rhone wines from Cotes du Rhone, Cotes du Nimes, Vaqyues etc - that offer nearly as good (early) drinking in the $10-18 range that you may want to try first to see if you like the style...(I love it - mmm Grenache, Syrah, Mouvedee, Cinsault - etc - yum yum) - and pure Syrahs from St Joseph in Northern Rhone are ussually innexpensive and drink well (again in good vintages) And here is a rec for a wonderful Cab based wine from Cali - while not cheap per se (mid 40s) - its just wonderful - a very very special wine - Ferraro-Carano Tressor (very pretty bottle too) - nice wine for a hot date.... enjoy!

OK just saw this....cheap but oustanding wines....hm - not sure..depends what constitues cheap and what one may consider "outstanding" versus perhaps mearly very good.. There are a few cheaper wines that I drink that I really think are very nice drinking wines for the price. Now this may vary depending on vintage - where a cheaper wine may excell in an exceptional vintage but not be so good in a weaker vintage - and this is very important to consider IMO. So here goes - a few recs off the top of my head... I find some real red easy drinking value with Barberas from Piedmont in Italy. Icardi Barbari d'asti Tabarin (I think thats the name) - 2001 vintage - around $12 bottle - simply a wonderful drinking wine. Many other Barberas - from d'asti and D'alba primarily drink very well. Vietti is ussually laways nice and Spinetta (though can be more expensive - but for perhaps $20 or so some truly nice wine) Another great (reletively cheap) Italian is Falesco. Their basic Merlot (perhaps $17-20) can be great and they have a Cab-Sangiovese (I think) blend called Vitiano - that runs about $8-10 can sometime taste right up there with a $40-50 red...(there is sometimes bottle variation so I would recommend trying a few...) Allegrini and Zenato make some nice Ripasso wines in the $14-20 range. Allegrini's Plazo del Torre and Griolo single vinyard reds can often be delicious... Many nice (cheap) Australian Shirazs (and shiraz/cab blends) as well - Paringa and Marquis Phillips come to mind (others as well - some of the Penfolds wines...etc) - each perhas $10-16...recent vintages have been good...lots of good fruit... Red Zinfindels can be powerful and fruity and drink well - Seghisio has a very nice basic Zin that runs about $12-14 thats simply sublime...Cline, Rosemount, others... Value can also be found with some Spanish wines. One I would recommend that I've seen around for about $17-20 it Numanthia Termes. Nice fruit... Other very nice (very full bodied) Spanish wines include wines from the Monstat region...Les Terraces (sp?) is one that is nice..others... Many Spanish Riojas and Ruberras offer nice drinking value in a softer style red. Monteccillo has had some nice ones recently - 94 Grand Reserve for about $20 if you can still find it is outstanding.... You can find some great Merlots and Cabs - pretty cheap from Washington State - Chateau St Michel comes to mind - particularly their Canoe Ridge and other single vinyrd sights - whcih ussually can be had for under $20... And there are plenty of nice Oregon Pinots in the $15 -20 range..Ponzi and Adelsheim come to mine...others as well - Bethel Heights, Errath....etc For whites - I generally recommend German Rieslings - particularly from the Mosul-Saar-Rhur region. You can buy an excllent Kabinet or a slightly sweeter Spatlese for well under $20 - best white wine values in the world IMO. Other nice whites include New Zealand and SOuth African Savingion Blancs. (I could recommend some of these - but not off the top of my head - names are elluding me)... Oh and for some inexpensive syrupy desert wines - Austrialian Tokats - such as Chambers and several others - great stuff..also some nice Aussi Ports - tend to run around $15 or so...or French Monballizacs - much the same as a Sauternes - but cheaper - a bit less body - but still nice...you can even find some nice half bottles of Sauterenes in the $12-16 range - well worth it for the drinking pleasure... Anyway - hope this helps....(more to come perhaps...if any interest)...

If it were clean might be fun to f*ck in....