THOTH

Ok - (self) hypnotism works....this guy is a fanatic...so anyting is possible...Ok - jumping jacks and pogo sticks....really putting those supernatural powers to work....lol

"creating more than sixteen thousand paintings in one twenty-four-hour period " Thats more then eleven paintings per minute...must be some masterpieces...perhaps they were minatures...

Otherwise known/claimed as "far North Azerbaijan" I imagine...

Again you can't be so doctrinare with this. And you are discounting genetics completely - genetics that has been formed by millenia of cultural/environmental conditioning. Now I don't entirely disagree with what you say here - in part. And I understand how your position stands in contrast to those who take the completely racial/genatic based argument...but I still disagree that anyone can make such prouncements (and that they have real meaning). So by your position our Sev-Marde is an Armenian? Software vs Hardware. And what if his g/f (full blood Armenian) chose to live as a totally assimilated American - but he continued to live "as Armenian" - would you say they were a mixed couple - him Armenian and her not? Why not? And if they had 2 children - but then seperated - each taking one....he brings up the child Armenian and she does not...in one really more of an "Armenian" then the other? But then the "non-Armenain" one groes up and marries an Armenain and the sen dtheir kids to Armenian school - did she suddenly become Armenian again? et cet c and so on and so forth...

Now you are sounding like Sasun.

LOL - well this guy has another explanation.... UFOs not only exist but are responsible for us humans actually existing, we are a hybrid creation of original prehuman man and Nephillim. The truth has been hidden from the poor masses for centuries but those with money and power know the true facts. Read your Bible and you will discover that God himself is an extra-terrestial although by no means should you infer that all UFOs are from God, quite the opposit - most modern day sightings and abductions are related to Satans plan to taint our genepool so that redemption will not be possible. You can choose to believe it or continue as one of the sheeple whom believe what government wants you to believe. In my world 911 was endorsed and carried out by Haliburton and Monsanto (Bush's Crew also responsible for Aspartame) Milk Kills, Chemtrails are Real, AIDS was intentionally developed by USA, God is Real. If you are an intelligent person please open your mind even though it will cause you pain when you accept the true facts. links for info: rense.com infowars.com Reverend Eric 13/07/2004 13:16

nada...where does one draw the line? A: you can't - not really...(and why is Domino sounding like vigil all of a sudden?) I cook Armenain - quite well in fact (and I drink Arak)....so? What of Armenians who (can) speak the language but live in Thailand and live like Thais? My internal wiring - how I think - is Armenian (in a great many ways) - even if I don't think in Armenian or speak it... And is an Armenian from Yerevan a more "pure" Armenain then one from Terhan? Is this person more culturally Armenian? etc etc I can't at all see how one can make such judgement..but then again...I guess being judgemental is a very Armenian thing.... And this is another example of how the mathmatical solution - ie you must have one part this, one part that, mixed this way etc - often has no real bearing on reality. And if an Armenian chooses to not have children - are they Armenain - seems not by your definition - they are not passing along the culture - so they are not Armenian. Or you Boghos....I think you fail too...

Perhaps in another universe I am.

agreed (I get a very sad feeling with that song...)...it is a sad song because the reality is certainly far from the ideal expressed...reading the paper, watching the news etc - also make me very sad....

Yes I can imagine being bitter to - in these circumstances...finally gaining the wisdom of age to see how you were misled in youth - that life has passed you by (and for what?) - and now - hoping to have a normal life again - and raise a family - that your time has passed and you are now unable....oh well...perhaps in the next life eh?

"Sri Chinmoy doesn't have temptations at all. " Whoa....even Christ had temptations no? Did he not have to resist the overtures of the Devil? So Chinmoy is beyond Christ now? And I thought you were saying he was human? Could this be possible? And is it possible he could be holier then Reverend Moon? (who is also serving humanity - no?)...perhaps we have a new trinity in the making....but who could be the 3rd? ...many possible claiments I imagine...

Thank you Nakharar for your insights. I will be travelling to Germany shortly and will perhaps get to see some of this myself. You should be aware though - that the Turks who have immigrated to Germany and Europe in general have tended to be the ones with the least skills and options in Turkey and are not necissarily typical of those back in Turkey - at least not those in urban or the more developed era. In fact - many Turks from Turkeyt think of the Turks in Germany etc as a bit backward (stuck in time - from when they left).. And as for Turks being European...well what is that? The culture in Turkey is a melding of European and Asian/Middle Eastern....obviously the Islamic tradition is very different than that of EUrope proper (for the most part)...but if you ever visit more urban Turkey you will find it and its people very European (for the vast part) - certainly with a twist - as would be expected. And the countryside is much as it has been and would not be considered very European per se (still what does this mean - what is the definition of such - and what really matters?). So Turkey is fairly unique...but is Greece just like France? Italy like Norway? etc etc - sure Turkey is a bit more out of the mainstream of European culture...but not so far out that it cannot be integrated in the future IMO. And who is to say who is "European" or not. Obviously many Turks are - in day to day culture and outlook - are as much as - or more so Western/Modern/European then many Europeans themselves. There are those who stick to old traditional (agricultural & pastoral) ways and there are those who have adopted more urban (and modern?) approaches/lives. Who is more similar - a Turk who works in the banking or manufacturing industry - as a professional or executive - with a someone in a similar profession in Germany...or some Swiss (or wherever) cow herder (who shares - in all likelyhood - more in common - in their daily life - with a Turkish sheep herder). etc etc I think Turkey should certainly be allowed to and be encouraged to join the European Union (in good time - and once its social and political systems meet standards...and certainly only after "comming clean" in regards to the Genocide - completely - including the modern legacy of denial and recognition of the current cultures debt to Armenians and recognition that the xenophobia and such of the Turks must be recognized and changed) OK - part 2: Vigil - please define "white"....then tell us why this designation is so important. I have never called you a racist - but it seems to me with every post you are presenting yourself that way. I understand that you are attempting to do so in a positive way...my concerns and what I have attempted to point out is how very quickly such can turn negative...very much so... I am not going to post apoligetically concerning the Jews (by Jews here I am refering to politically active [nationalist] contingent. But as far as Jews being successful in finance and what have you - more power to them. Historically - as you know Jews were prohibited from many trades and positions and have managed to overcome these restrictions and severe biases against them (because of them being "different" and insular - much like you want for the Armenians...) - so good for them. That they take care of and look out for themselves also seems to me what you are preaching for Armenains. So instead of you having animosity towards Jews you should admire them - and it seems you do as you are exhorting Armenians to be like them... These theories that Rome fell and that civilizations crumble due to racial mixing is just bunk. And past models really won't apply now anyway. At no time before in history have we ever experienced a situation where the dominant culture (of the West is so pervasive and powerful and without alternative/external threat (of significance). Certainly there are fragilities and the societies of the West could (and likely will) fall (eventually)...but not for any reason having to do with racial factors - we have other problems/issues that are far more threatening. And we are in a new era - global integration - and unless everything falls apart and we slip back technology wise and such - this is likely not to change. We are the cusp of great changes and socity, civilization and people are changing - cultures are merging/melding and we are moving towards a perhaps unknown future. Our job - as citizens of the world is to manage this in a positive way and avoid the nasty pitfalls that could lead to tyranny and abuse. We also must do what we can to minimize our (negative) environmental impact. We have tremendous oppurtunity to move foreward into an era where there is greater comfort, prosperity and happiness for everyone...but we should not be tolerant of leaving masses of people behind and in misery - we must come up with a way where all are able to live decent, productive and fruitful lives. We have a long ways to go...a great many challenges - but the oppurtunities for sucess are there. And all cultures will change and adapt to the new realities - and hopefully those like us - who are small - can maintain some identity and culture - but things will never go back to as they were - culture is based on the means of production and the technology employed - traditional agricultural village life will likely persist for some time - but will never again be the dominant determinate of the culture. And have I been "on your case" Vigil? I think its the opposite - you have been imposing and repeating your "message" to us over and over....OK - we understand your point...but because we either believe some things differently - or are skeptical that your "solution" is practical/will work - et cetc - how is it that we are on your case? OK - perhaps you are sensitive that we are opposed to racism...but why are you defensive about such...if you are not racist? etc

Coun't me in (of course)....and it will be my special mission to disprove such theories...however - to give credit where it is due - Accel was certainly a fast learner and managed his team well - so Kudos to him.... I will be out of touch from very soon to August sometime - just to let you know...so if its set up (who did it last year?) in the next two days I can log in and such...otherwise - I don't know - not sure if you can hold a place - but I won't be back until early-mid August...but I absolutely do want in!

Isn't that what I just said?

wrong? misguided certainly....having pride in ones European (what is "white?") heritage/achievements is one thing...considering that anyone who is not the same as you and that they are lesser humans because of it, well... I am happy with my identity. Preservation makes me think "formaldehyde" - we are not stuck in time....we move foreward. I don't mean to belittle Armenian culture/history or such - and I sympathyze with your desire to maintain Armenain identity and to continue our culture - but you cannot expect that this is a static thing and you cannot expect that all - or even most Armenians will continue to practive traditional ways. But we are Armenian....and we will remain so...it is in our blood and we will express it in as we do/will.... Your assertions here are entirely incorrect. When have I imposed anythign on you. I've only pointed out that your view is narrow....it is not the only valid perspective. I offer an alternative one...others have theirs as well...all perhaps equally valid...or at least with there own merit. You seem to be the one (one of the ones) making prounouncements claiming that your way is the way things should be and exhorting others to live like you wish them to...etc I read your post. My response was not addressing the substance of your post - nor did I address your affiliation with racist elements, nor did I denigrate you in any way - IMO. I only expressed concern with those who obsess so much on race (as OK - you seem to do...)- and in fact - these guys do - that I find such counterproductive - and when taken to the point that they take it - well - very negative and ultimately rather disgusting. While some information that some post on the site has some interest - most is from a very skewed point of view and most has little to do with real historical or anthropological study. (its not on my favorites list BTW) I don't "automatically" refrain from reading things because of someones affiliation...however as time is limiuted...and the volumes of trash on the interenet ans such is immense - I do choose not to waste my time with material of dubious merit and of unpleasent tone. Why bash people for their race at all? Yes - "bashing" people because of their race...and then going on to inslt them and denigrate them...because of their race...I do find that very insulting and distasteful...as any Armenian certainly should....and as any human being should... I consider "white nationals" to be "mongols"....do you find that interesting? No beef with white nationals...as long as they are cool with Armenians...."first they came for the trade unionist, but I wasn't one...then they came for the..." etc etc...familiar? Are you likewise a fan of Pol Pot? He didn't have any position on Armenians. What was Talat's good reason? Surely he had justification? Sadaam didn't like Kurds or Shiites...Ok...etc etc...yes - just why do racist people feel the way they do? Why must they feel the need to elevate themselves (by denigrating others...) in their own eyes - because of their "race" (versus something that they themselves [as individuals] can be proud of) LOL...that you sympathize at all says volumes about you dear Vigil - and that is not a good thing. (just where do your sympathize lie Vigil? Where do your views overlap? ...hatred of "Jews", "White Pride"...hail the purebloods? just what are you saying sir?) ANd that you are apauled that they don't recognize the great Armenian culture and all the wonderful achievements of Armenains throughout history...well - how could they not? They are so very much into history and ascribing cultural achievements and connecting such to race and so on and so forth...(we're a) little to dark for them I guess...

Vigil - where have I called you a racist? I have looked over that forum in the past - I find very little of real interest there. My comment was that I find that those who obsess with such racial categorizations and concerns worries me a bit. No problem with being interested in ones history and even lineage - micro as well as macro - however once one begins categorizations of "us vs them" and such I find this tends to quickly lead to prouncements such as we are better then they are and more pure and such...I just don't see much at all positve comming out of anythign along these lines. So what - the Turks are a mixed bunch...we know that...in many ways -I think - that can be an advantage. Armenians are mixed as well - OK - not to the degree...but whats the point really? Turks have adopted (aspects of) the cultures they came to rule/be amongst...that is understood as well...and I do find this Pan-Turkism and such to be distasteful as well - and somewhat humourous in addition to being disturbing...so why would we want to mimic that?

true

Todays story is concerning exodus of Armenains from Armenia: "only 30 percent of Armenians live on the territory of the motherland.." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jul11.html Yesterdays story concerns Kocharian's crackdown vs opposition/move towards authoritarianism: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jul10.html

Certainly there is something to be said for a life with challenges....but would love and brotherhood etc be so bad? WOuldn't this give us all oppurtunity to develop in other (positive) ways....and whats wrong with having (good/positive) ideals....better then the opposite....

cool - thanks...haven't checked out yet - but certainly will... speaking of - I had/served soem very nice Lebanese wine over trhe weekend for some friends who are moving to Jordan next month...Chateau Musar 1995...very good stuff! (and of course I served my typical Armenian Kepabs!!!) yum (went over very well...)

Turkey is what it is and Turks are what they are...why do you care really? (unless you are concerned about finding some long lost kin?...) What worries me is you and other Armenians who feel the need to post (& like you be apoligetic for) & be involved with those types on stormfront.

Catholic priests are men of God too are they not? I can now see why Sasun is so defensive and resolute concerning his beliefs....(sad) I see nothing inherently wrong with Chinmoy's teachings/sayings etc...most are very nice thoughts...though I don't see them as the do all and end all (and of course I cannot accept that they are divinely inspired...any more then anyone elses insights/thoughts....) and I don't find them all that "special" or necessitating worship and special recognition...but there is no doubt that power corrupts...and he does seem to have a pattern of self-agrandizement and actions that - IMO - run counter to his messages. I also see these allegations (sex, control & use & abuses, sucking funds dry & such...) and defections of members as clear signs of typical cult behavior... To me Christianity is a "cult" too....

Man - it just gets worse... http://www.chinmoycult.com/ (the next one is from the (ex) wife of the guy whose letter I posted earlier...) - very sad...not only sexual abuse (likened to incest - but basically forcing these girls [dozens aparently] to abort as well...nasty) http://www.chinmoycult.com/testimonials/sex1.htm ..not planning to have kids are you Sasun? Herr Guru may not like that....

This one is a very nice summation. I think you are right Domino - this guy is as bad as Moon & all the rest....I thought he was a mostly harmless conartist - but it seems he is much worse... "I married my hippy spiritual girlfriend in 1971 and we blissfully found our guru the same year. We became the de facto leaders of one of Chinmoy's branch centers. It was quite early in the history of the Centre, and there were a lot of kids our age, all bright eyed and energetic and idealistic. We bought into the sadhana - very little sleep, morning meditation, read only the guru's books, selfless service. Then came the running - training in the middle of the night for marathons and ultra-marathons. I was the owner of a small business with 8 or 10 employees, and so the sadhana was all on top of 10 or 12 hour work days. The worst pressure of it all was having to memorize the guru's hastily composed Bengali songs. Some of the tunes were delightful, but there was the constant pressure that every spare waking moment should really be spent memorizing incomprehensible lyrics to songs with no key or time signature. I was becoming increasingly estranged from my wife. She was away on trips serving the guru, or when she was home we had less and less interaction. Our sex life (and all other affection) trickled to a halt, which confused and saddened me. She had been my adventure pal in college, and now we hardly talked. At first we disciples were told that Alo Devi was the divine mother and to worship her. Then after a couple years the guru told a small group of us that really she had lost her realization and she was a complete pain in the ass and we should humor her. This created a huge schism in the community between those who "knew" and those who "didn't know". Those who didn't know were expected to worship her, in the face of those who knew - which made the not-knows look like idiots. Those who knew were being trained in the art of insincerity and deception. There was a lot of that. Although the guru gave lip service to friendships, he watched them closely and was often able to divide people who got too close. He insisted on the disclosure of any private information shared between friends. I hope my old friend Savyasachi is OK. I know that his heart was broken many years ago when the guru forced him to separate from his wife Lavanya whom he loved dearly. But he was never able to admit this or speak about it. The bad paintings (there were a few good ones), the bad poems (also some good ones), and all the other performances and showings done in the name of quantity and self-aggrandizement were hard for me to swallow. I grew up in a family of artists, taught to edit what I did and bring the best to show. Chinmoy's brazen approach to "art" was quite an exercise in surrender for me. I remember fidgeting through an esraj concert at Carnegie Hall, feeling so embarrassed for us all. The esraj sounded like a sick cat, the tempos of the songs were erratic, and the disciples were mostly sitting in rapt attention with folded hands. This is not to say that I was not a guru Nazi in my own way for quite a few years. I cracked the whip, gave lectures, hung posters, delivered ice cold edicts from the master, and tried to keep the troops marching in the same direction. I also saw some people treated really badly. I saw Carlos' wife being praised to the skies in front of the inner circle on the front porch and then called a "black bitch" one hour later to the same group (and none of us said a word). I saw heavy women have to show up for public "weigh-ins", trying to lose weight wearing rubber training suits and driving around in cars with the heat cranked up in the winter, terrified of the humiliation. One time, on one day's notice, I wa asked to fly to New York to build the guru a tennis court. I left my business for a month which left it in shambles. When I was a few days from completing the task, it was taken away from me and I was sent home because he did not like my consciousness. Someone else finished it. There was no real explanation. There were good times too. We had hilarious skits. The running was painful, but built self confidence. I learned about printing, and public relations, and public speaking. There were some powerful meditations - both silent and while singing those damn Bengali songs. Finally after eleven years I ran out of steam. I left the Centre with a woman I had met there. We were immediately ostracized. After working very very hard for that community through my 20's, not a single friend was allowed (or had the courage) to speak with me. Since that time, many have left the Centre and and a few are among my closest friends. Our definition of friendship now is so much broader than even what I could have imagined back then. My life has moved in many ways since leaving that community: a long time marriage, a teenage daughter (we're very close), a much larger business venture, and many years of inner work in a wide range of disciplines. One of the turning points in my own awakening came about eight years after I left the Centre, when my first wife (who had also left by then) confided in me about the sexual relations that she had had with the guru starting in our second year of discipleship and continuing until after my departure. Her disclosure explained the strange separation we had experienced, and also freed me from any lingering uncertainties about who Chinmoy really was. I had left the Centre with an ambiguous "maybe he is a great master, but it is time for me to leave". After her revelations I was able to cut the cords still connecting me to Chinmoy and finally completely take back my own life. As angry as I was for this dark betrayal, I was also grateful for this truth which gave me back my independence. In hindsight, the Chinmoy experience was focused on the heart chakra and above. The chakras below were ignored. We developed light and access and some opening in these upper areas, but the rest of our beings atrophied. I believe now that life on this earth is about being present, fully, awake, here, and now in every situation that life reveals to us, from head to foot. I came out of the Centre quite educated about some aspects of life, and completely clueless about others. This is not about street smarts - I am talking about our deep loving humanness - which was ignored in the Centre. Chinmoy is a dark master; a kind of sorcerer. He is very skillful and deceptive. He lives off of the energy of others. He will say that he feeds his disciples, but I am convinced that he actually feeds from them - financially, emotionally, sexually, psychicly. From the inside, his story is convincing. I was convinced for eleven years. But from the outside, his story does not hold up in the world. A good story has life no matter where it is told - his only lives inside itself. Once the cords are fully cut, he has no hold. My first wife (now a good friend) and I have talked from time to time about what we should do, if anything, about what we know. We usually take satisfaction enough in knowing that when he had us, we fed him mightily, and now we feed him not all."

Had to post thi sone - just too good...a comparison (made by an ex-disciple) between Sri Chimnoy & Dracula: (CKG = Chinmoy Kumar Ghose - his name BTW...) I watched the new movie release called "Van Helsing" last night. At one point the vampire refers to the people around him (his cult following) as "puppets of my power". Immediately I had an insight into CKG, who said to Penny, as he gestured to choke her "I am very strong". The vampire begins by sucking energy (lifeblood) from a victim and then turns the victim into a cult follower who executes his every wish. He is hungry for power and sex. The false guru does something similar. He wants a cult following of many human bodies and minds who can pour energy into him (sometimes via meditating on his picture), (sometimes by sex on demand) or into his projects, such as making him famous, in order to draw new blood into his orbit of influence. He is impressed with his own power and wants his followers to become his worshipful admirers (hence an endless series of public displays of strength in weight lifting). There is a coterie of female followers with whom he has selective sexual relations. Dracula is referred to as "the master" in the movie, and he lives a life which is remote from the real world (like CKG), but which is supported by his cult followers who do everything he asks. There are many interesting parallels. If you see the movie, you may notice the striking resemblance even more vividly. There is a pattern of abuse, violent disregard of others' integrity, etc, etc... a remarkable number of parallels between the vampire and the false guru." Also - lol: Obedience, Love, Devotion, Surrender, Manifestation, Oneness, and Gratitude : OLDSMOG